United eyes A330-800 for fleet replacement

mjoelnir · Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:33 am

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-446322/

quote: United Airlines is considering the Airbus A330-800neo and Boeing New Mid-market Airplane (NMA) among options to replace its fleet of aging Boeing 757s and 767s.

So there seems to be airlines that at least speculate to buy the A330-800.

seahawk · Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:41 am

Surely they will go with the 797.

rnav2dlrey · Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:43 am

UA will never buy the A330.

727200 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:53 am

A snowball in he'll has a better chance of survival than UA ever buying A-330. It's called negotiation ploy. Not gonna ever happen.

RainerBoeing777 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:56 am

United does not have 53 Boeing 767-300ER are active 35, I believe that in the replacement of these aircraft are in the hands of Boeing

packsonflight · Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:58 am

727200 wrote:
A snowball in he'll has a better chance of survival than UA ever buying A-330. It's called negotiation ploy. Not gonna ever happen.

Then it is not a ploy...

MrHMSH · Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:03 am

If Leahy was still in charge and pulled that off he'd have had to retire on the spot. I'm not as pessimistic about the A338 as some others... but there's optimism and there's fantasy, this is surely the latter. The 797 is much closer to the size and performance/capability they want.

columba · Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:13 am

A330Neo could be a stop gap solution until the NMA is ready

downdata · Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:17 am

This might get boeing to stop dragging their feet and commit to the NMA

Aesma · Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:19 am

The 797 doesn't exist.

This says to me that UA wants a "big" 797.

If the 797 is too small for them, who knows what might happen ?

B777LRF · Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:22 am

There's no clearly, or even loosely, defined '797'; it's not even a paper plane at this stage, simply because there is no next generation engine available to power the thing. It will be, at least, 5-7 years before an engine becomes available, meaning a '797' is a good 6-8 years away, but probably close to 10. If United, or anybody else, is willing to wait that long for product which hasn't been defined and which may, or may not, fit their need then good for them. Otherwise the only shows in town are the A321neo, A330neo and 787.

Asiaflyer · Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:25 am

727200 wrote:
A snowball in he'll has a better chance of survival than UA ever buying A-330. It's called negotiation ploy. Not gonna ever happen.

Reminds me about the rethoric here on A.net before AA bought a large chunk of A319 and A321...

IndianicWorld · Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:32 am

The 338 seems like too much plane for UA, given that it appears to be optimised for longer routes.

The aircraft size could work as 767 replacement, less so the 757, but unless it looks at a A321neo and 338 combination, it will not really be able to match both requirements.

Overall, UA appears to be a very long shot but stranger things have happened.

flee · Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:35 am

It is unclear what could replace the 767. Ron Baur, vice-president of fleet at United, said in May 2014 that the Boeing 787-9 was "ultimately a replacement for the 767-300ER". However, the airline has used the 19 787-9s it has taken since then for growth rather than replacement.

In addition, the airline opted to refurbish the interiors and extend the life of 21 767-300ERs as oil prices fell in early 2015.

Additional 787s could be ordered to replace the 767, however, the high capital costs of the next generation widebody are widely seen as a disincentive for such a move.

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ew-433417/

Don't discount the lowest cost possibility too - used A332/333. These are, at best, a short term solution to replace the 767s that are coming up to 25 years old. With low fuel prices, UA could use them as a stop gap while waiting for some new airliner to come to market in about 8-10 years.

WIederling · Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:46 am

B777LRF wrote:
There's no clearly, or even loosely, defined '797'; it's not even a paper plane at this stage, simply because there is no next generation engine available to power the thing. It will be, at least, 5-7 years before an engine becomes available, meaning a '797' is a good 6-8 years away, but probably close to 10. If United, or anybody else, is willing to wait that long for product which hasn't been defined and which may, or may not, fit their need then good for them. Otherwise the only shows in town are the A321neo, A330neo and 787.

Boeing could well be peddling as NMA/MoM a similarly unfulfillable offer as the NSA years back. Looks all good and well only too far out.
NMA is far away and they try to tide that over with "just around the corner, look closer".

Which Boeing frame must bear the fall to the NEO this time? 767 ?

LAX772LR · Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:47 am

rnav2dlrey wrote:
UA will never buy the A330.

While I'm aware of what you're trying to say... technically, that's false:
UA is currently the owner of several A330s in fact.

AC however, is the operator.

Theseus · Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:55 am

MrHMSH wrote:
If Leahy was still in charge and pulled that off he'd have had to retire on the spot. I'm not as pessimistic about the A338 as some others... but there's optimism and there's fantasy, this is surely the latter. The 797 is much closer to the size and performance/capability they want.

I did not follow the 797 threads, but am confused. How much has been defined about this plane ?

MrHMSH · Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:03 am

Theseus wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
If Leahy was still in charge and pulled that off he'd have had to retire on the spot. I'm not as pessimistic about the A338 as some others... but there's optimism and there's fantasy, this is surely the latter. The 797 is much closer to the size and performance/capability they want.

I did not follow the 797 threads, but am confused. How much has been defined about this plane ?

It will have less capability than the A330-200/800 and closer in size to the 757/767 than the A330 is.

Theseus · Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:13 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Theseus wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
If Leahy was still in charge and pulled that off he'd have had to retire on the spot. I'm not as pessimistic about the A338 as some others... but there's optimism and there's fantasy, this is surely the latter. The 797 is much closer to the size and performance/capability they want.

I did not follow the 797 threads, but am confused. How much has been defined about this plane ?

It will have less capability than the A330-200/800 and closer in size to the 757/767 than the A330 is.

Sure, but do we know whether it is a single aisle or a widebody ? Do we have an idea of the capacity and range ?
(in your previous post you say that the 797 is much closer to the size and performance [UA] wants; I feel both the 797 size/performance and the size/performance required by UA are unknown at this point ---for the UA part we may just assume that the new plane would take over exactly what the 757 and 767 do, assuming they do not shuffle things between other planes, but still this is a bit approximative)

StTim · Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:26 am

I am sure Boeing are teasing the airlines with the 797 be it one or two different frames. It is the classic disruption ploy. Look what is just around the corner. Oh sorry it is just around the next corner - and so on...

mjoelnir · Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:30 am

The 797, MOM or NMA, does not exist as it is. The smallest wide body frames on offer are the 787-8 and the A330-800. If CAPEX is the biggest concern at UA, the A330-800 or even some late A330-200 should be a shoe in.

45272455674 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:38 am

If United buys the A330-800, my gosh there will be a lot of people throwing their toys out of the proverbial pram in a tantrum. It will be a bombshell.

StTim wrote:
I am sure Boeing are teasing the airlines with the 797 be it one or two different frames. It is the classic disruption ploy. Look what is just around the corner. Oh sorry it is just around the next corner - and so on...

I'm sure airlines are smart enough to see through that ploy. If we can, then the airlines can. There is a point where an airline can say, that's nice but we need the planes now, not 5 or 10 years down the track.

StTim · Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:50 am

Yes it can work for a while but at some point when the airlines sees the nth iteration they say enough is enough.

I think that is what happened with the NSA/MAX when AA effectively said to Boeing do it or all the order goes to Airbus.

NZ321 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:12 am

I'm not sure Boeing are teasing airlines with much at the moment. This concept is in it's early phase. They will have a picture from their discussions with airlines about their respective needs and will be looking to see whether they can produce a twin aisle plane that hits the sweet spot in terms of the gap in the market and required performance. May be a year before we have an answer to Boeing's proposed solution. Then they need to canvas airlines and it's back and forwards until design freeze and then official launch to market. Could be 2 years away plus. A338 is available now. 767 fleets are aging. UA clearly needs an aircraft to replace 763 and maybe 764. So it's logical for them to take a closer look at the A338 - particularly given better than anticipated initial performance stats and Airbus being in a position to offer a competitive price. I wouldn't discount UA making a purchase or lease deal. That would be silly at this stage. It will come down to negotiations.

Tedd · Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:12 am

As a plane lover I`m excited on this news. But in the first few comments this terrific plane is dismissed. UA have to
look at all the options of what they will need to provide to keep their business model relevant, attractive & competitive
for their future growth. For them the A330-800 could be the perfect plane, or as near to it as they see fit. If the MOM
concept suits them better, then you can be sure they`ll go that route. We all know the A330 is a decent aircraft, &
it`s been made to be even more competative with engine & aerodynamic upgrades, & pricing will be very much in it`s
favour. Give UA credit in knowing what it`s wants & needs are, & remember it could also stimulate others into thinking
along the same lines. A bit of good news for Airbus for this model I hope.

RalXWB · Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:25 am

United with its current Continental and Boeing Board will never order any more Airbus unfortunately...

jfklganyc · Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:26 am

I can’t believe that people still think that United wouldnt order an Airbus. Didn’t they just double down on their 350 order?

It all depends how quickly they want the airplane… There is no 797 it doesn’t even have a name yet

Bricktop · Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:29 am

If little games like this get us closer to the 797 launch, then good. For an airline that hasn't operated the A33X family to jump in on an orphan would be a surprise. Unless they use it to get out of the A350 order. :duck:

cougar15 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:29 am

Bricktop wrote:
If little games like this get us closer to the 797 launch, then good. For an airline that hasn't operated the A33X family to jump in on an orphan would be a surprise. Unless they use it to get out of the A350 order.

Perhaps they just figured out it is a great AC for their mid term plans that is to be had at a very good price (and quickly) at present ? Never say never.....

NZ321 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:32 am

I agree with most of the above. Either way this is positive. Airbus certainly doesn't have rose tinted spectacles on. They have been through plenty in the past few years to know whether this is a tactic or a genuine position. To say that those on the UAL Board will never sign an order for an Airbus is an indictment on the board. It's a serious criticism of their critical faculties. Surely we can all see that? UAL will buy the right aircraft for them at the right price considering their medium and long term needs. That is a given. If Boeing doesn't have that aircraft then Airbus is in with a chance.

Gingersnap · Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:39 am

727200 wrote:
A snowball in he'll has a better chance of survival than UA ever buying A-330. It's called negotiation ploy. Not gonna ever happen.

Well if it's that obvious (and I agree), then Airbus would be well served to barely budge on price.

Bricktop · Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:42 am

NZ321 wrote:
I agree with most of the above. Either way this is positive. Airbus certainly doesn't have rose tinted spectacles on. They have been through plenty in the past few years to know whether this is a tactic or a genuine position. To say that those on the UAL Board will never sign an order for an Airbus is an indictment on the board. It's a serious criticism of their critical faculties. Surely we can all see that? UAL will buy the right aircraft for them at the right price considering their medium and long term needs. That is a given. If Boeing doesn't have that aircraft then Airbus is in with a chance.

Correct. We still have to suffer through the "pity party" for poor Airbus every time UA is brought up. They have bought and, and my joking aside, should take the A350 and actually could theoretically be a candidate for the A338 if there are no new-build 767s (a Boeing fanboy fantasy) or the 797 in the pretty near future. I wouldn't go photoshopping any A338s in UA livery just yet, but they could probably get them pretty quickly and cheaply if desperate. I just don't think they are desperate.

KarelXWB · Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:56 am

Note that the A330-800 is just one of 5 options being considered to replace the 757/767 fleets. It's not a given that UA will simply select the A330neo.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-446322/

JamesCousins · Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:57 am

To everyone saying this "will never happen", or "United would never", hold the phone a second...

United is one of the largest 757 and 767 operators, and whilst they're adding odd second hand 767 frames, they do need a longer term replacement. They have 767s in excess of 20 years old, and they aren't exactly the latest tech by any means. Boeing's MOM may provide the solution, but availability is key - if it doesn't see the light of day (aka deliveries) in the next 6 to 7 years then UA will have little option to increase frequencies with smaller 737's (not always possible) or up gauge some routes to newer 764's or even 772's (their next largest frames).

Imagine an A321LR or A338neo order from United in the next 12 months, dare I say both

Channex757 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:08 pm

The 338NEO could just work. It would give them some front cabin creativity on the North Atlantic where that centre row of business has always been a little odd for its time.

The plane sits between the 764 and 772 in general size so it's not that much of a departure. Offer it with a paper-and-plug derate and UAL could find it very interesting indeed without the long range. Many other airlines went from 767-300 to A330-200 so what is the issue here? If Airbus bundle a deal with the A21N it would be a compelling offer over vapourware with a potential high price tag.

ro1960 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:12 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
I can’t believe that people still think that United wouldnt order an Airbus. Didn’t they just double down on their 350 order?

UA converted their 35 A35J order to 45 A359.

Boeing74741R · Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:24 pm

Channex757 wrote:
The 338NEO could just work. It would give them some front cabin creativity on the North Atlantic where that centre row of business has always been a little odd for its time.

The plane sits between the 764 and 772 in general size so it's not that much of a departure. Offer it with a paper-and-plug derate and UAL could find it very interesting indeed without the long range. Many other airlines went from 767-300 to A330-200 so what is the issue here? If Airbus bundle a deal with the A21N it would be a compelling offer over vapourware with a potential high price tag.

Placing an order that involves A330neo could be the workaround United need to get A321neoLR's at a price that's not unreasonable considering the comments some time ago about AA's clause with Airbus over pricing.

I also think it's not beyond the realms of possibility to see both types in the UA fleet. The A321neoLR is, at this time, the only aircraft available to adequately replace 757-200s, particularly on the longer/TATL flights. The A330neo would also work on the 767-operated flights and would be better than the 787's for some of the shorter sectors, as well as potentially being available quicker than 787's.

RalXWB wrote:
United with its current Continental and Boeing Board will never order any more Airbus unfortunately...

If they are pro-Boeing, how come United committed to the A350's and were reportedly acquiring used A319/320's?

mjoelnir · Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:25 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Note that the A330-800 is just one of 5 options being considered to replace the 757/767 fleets. It's not a given that UA will simply select the A330neo.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-446322/

Yes, five options, but the slide tells us also it is a near term target. That should exclude the possible 797, that leaves 4 options. The four options do not exclude each other.
Some of the 757 and 767 will be or are being replaced by 737-10 or A321neo, that takes care of the lower end both in range and capacity. The upper end could be replaced by 787-8 or A330-800. If CAPEX is the overriding consideration than it can well be the A330-800.

One quote is also interesting:

However, multiple airlines that have looked at the A321LR say it will not be capable of carrying as high of a payload as the 757 across the Atlantic.

OA940 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:28 pm

If they only operated the 787-8 which they could also use to replace the 767's...

StTim · Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:31 pm

Gingersnap wrote:
727200 wrote:
A snowball in he'll has a better chance of survival than UA ever buying A-330. It's called negotiation ploy. Not gonna ever happen.

Well if it's that obvious (and I agree), then Airbus would be well served to barely budge on price.

Or they lowball it so that Boeing - who will need to compete at some level has to accept reduced margins! If they win at a low price then they have another foot in the door. Is that not a win win strategy for Airbus?

parapente · Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:33 pm

People speak of the loooong runway requirements of the stretched 737's particularly the -9.One must assume that the extra stretched 7310 is no better.Would that not effect its usefulness on some of their routes?

Revelation · Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:40 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
I can’t believe that people still think that United wouldnt order an Airbus. Didn’t they just double down on their 350 order?

It all depends how quickly they want the airplane… There is no 797 it doesn’t even have a name yet

And the history of airlines betting that the shiny new jet would come out of the factory on time and without flaws is pretty bleak.

QR and A320neo, QF and many others with 787, etc. etc. etc.

It seems the only way Boeing can keep UA on side would be via bridge 767s, and that strategy might not be effective.

So, yeah, we very well could see A338s at UA.

Seems there are two MSNs that will be up for grabs real soon! :stirthepot:

Gingersnap · Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:45 pm

StTim wrote:
Gingersnap wrote:
727200 wrote:
A snowball in he'll has a better chance of survival than UA ever buying A-330. It's called negotiation ploy. Not gonna ever happen.

Well if it's that obvious (and I agree), then Airbus would be well served to barely budge on price.

Or they lowball it so that Boeing - who will need to compete at some level has to accept reduced margins! If they win at a low price then they have another foot in the door. Is that not a win win strategy for Airbus?

That is true. I guess I was going along with the assumption that UA had no intention, regardless of the price of buying Airbus aircraft. So to that end, I would as an manufacturer, not indulge a non-customer the benefit of getting better prices elsewhere. I guess if they go extreme either end, they can either hurt Boeing or UA if United indeed have eyes only for Boeing.

StTim · Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:51 pm

Gingersnap wrote:
StTim wrote:
Gingersnap wrote:

Well if it's that obvious (and I agree), then Airbus would be well served to barely budge on price.

Or they lowball it so that Boeing - who will need to compete at some level has to accept reduced margins! If they win at a low price then they have another foot in the door. Is that not a win win strategy for Airbus?

That is true. I guess I was going along with the assumption that UA had no intention, regardless of the price of buying Airbus aircraft. So to that end, I would as an manufacturer, not indulge a non-customer the benefit of getting better prices elsewhere. I guess if they go extreme either end, they can either hurt Boeing or UA if United indeed have eyes only for Boeing.

Yes it is game theory - and competing on price will mean UA keep coming back. UA are not Airbus's competitor they are a long shot potential customer. Boeing on the other hand...

aemoreira1981 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:58 pm

Never say never, but I see a top-up order of B788s and B789s as more likely for 767 routes.

Geoff1947 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:07 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Note that the A330-800 is just one of 5 options being considered to replace the 757/767 fleets. It's not a given that UA will simply select the A330neo.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-446322/

Seems they’re not considering new build 767-300ERs.

Geoff

leleko747 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:08 pm

Wasn't United in talks with Boeing for new build 767s?

jayunited · Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:11 pm

In my opinion this is Boeing's order to loose UA just like AA and DL's 767s are old and life extension programs can extend the life of this aircraft but by 2028 many 763ERs will have to be replaced. Boeing is still studying the 797 but for now it is nothing more than a paper aircraft with no launch date in sight despite there being major interest from the US3 as well as other airlines around the world. Boeing needs to make a decision or the airlines will turn to Airbus and their A321LR, A330neo to replace their aging 757/767 fleets. Airbus is poised and ready to take over this market while Boeing continues to drag their feet studying their 797. For now it seems as if airlines are willing to wait but at some point their patience will run out and if Boeing doesn't have an aircraft that can meet their needs Airbus will gladly accept those orders.

IranianMan123 · Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:17 pm

If Airbus are willing to sell the A330-800 for very cheap prices, I would definitely think United would make an order. Airbus needs the order. Would be a massive coup. How many would United need?

hOMSaR · Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:36 pm

parapente wrote:
People speak of the loooong runway requirements of the stretched 737's particularly the -9.One must assume that the extra stretched 7310 is no better.Would that not effect its usefulness on some of their routes?

The -10 will have landing gear modifications allowing for a steeper rotation angle, which, as I understand, could mean it needs less runway than the -9.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net