It appears that FRA won't get any A350s at all.

Good news for @MUC_Airport, bad ones for @Airport_FRA!

After announcing that the first 15 #LHA350 would be based in Munich, the airline has now decided that the remaining 10 would also be stationed in Bavaria.

First Lufthansa aircraft type not being present in Frankfurt at all.

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Not surprised at all. As these are added, I'm sure the 346 will disappear from MUC.

Are they still upset with Fraport for letting Ryanair into FRA?

I am sure FRA will be the B779 base.

Has Lufty shown any interest in the A350-1000?

FSDan wrote:

Not surprised at all. As these are added, I'm sure the 346 will disappear from MUC.

It was reported that, in October, Lufthansa will replace the A346 with the A359 on the MUC-MEX run.

So in terms of widebodies, LH will have in the future:

FRA.- A333s, 779s, 748is and A380s.
MUC- A359s and A380s.

Is this right (assuming the retirement of all 744s and A346s, and the phase out of all A343s)?

LH at some point mentioned that maybe they had ordered too few A359s and too many 779s. Is there any chance we may see some additional orders for the A359 and some cancellations or conversions for the 779s?

EddieDude wrote:

So in terms of widebodies, LH will have in the future:

FRA.- A333s, 779s, 748is and A380s.
MUC- A359s and A380s.

Is this right (assuming the retirement of all 744s and A346s, and the phase out of all A343s)?

LH at some point mentioned that maybe they had ordered too few A359s and too many 779s. Is there any chance we may see some additional orders for the A359 and some cancellations or conversions for the 779s?

Has there been any announcement about the 333s being consolidated at FRA? Right now those are split between FRA and MUC, with MUC having daily 333 departures to YYZ, YUL, CLT, and IAD (and 1x weekly to JFK). Would the 359 be too much of a capacity jump on routes such as MUC-YUL and MUC-CLT?

Good point FSDan, I failed to consider that.

The A333s without F have 42J, 28W, 185Y seats.

A359s have either 48J, 21W, 224Y seats, or 36J, 21W, 262Y seats. So, yeah, quite a bit of a capacity increase. I guess LH would need to have A333s at MUC.

holzmann wrote:

I am sure FRA will be the B779 base.

Why? I'm not so sure about that

I thought that the German news magazine "Der spiegel" and the aviation magazine AERO reported this a while back. (sorry, no links) MUC will be the only base of the A359's. 5 A380's are to be moved there. A346 will be retired and A333 will be split between FRA and MUC. Also, Eurowings will fly more long-haul out of MUC.

From what I gathered, and this was also in "Der Spiegel" a few weeks ago, this "Jump" project that they had with 18C seats and the rest Y+ and Y on their A343's are to be abandoned and A/C will return to normal configuration, so it seems they will be kept on for the foreseeable future. Makes sense since second-hand market of A343 is virtually non existent and those A/C have been installed with the same business class cabin as on other long-haul jets in the fleet.

OSL777FLYER wrote:

I thought that the German news magazine "Der spiegel" and the aviation magazine AERO reported this a while back. (sorry, no links) MUC will be the only base of the A359's. 5 A380's are to be moved there. A346 will be retired and A333 will be split between FRA and MUC. Also, Eurowings will fly more long-haul out of MUC.

From what I gathered, and this was also in "Der Spiegel" a few weeks ago, this "Jump" project that they had with 18C seats and the rest Y+ and Y on their A343's are to be abandoned and A/C will return to normal configuration, so it seems they will be kept on for the foreseeable future. Makes sense since second-hand market of A343 is virtually non existent and those A/C have been installed with the same business class cabin as on other long-haul jets in the fleet.

I don't know if the ex-Jump 343s will be returned to standard LH mainline configuration... Aren't most of them going to be transitioned to SN to do EW longhaul flying? I believe 6 frames are supposed to go to SN/EW over the next year-and-a-half, and I thought there were only 7 in Jump configuration.

FSDan wrote:

OSL777FLYER wrote:

I thought that the German news magazine "Der spiegel" and the aviation magazine AERO reported this a while back. (sorry, no links) MUC will be the only base of the A359's. 5 A380's are to be moved there. A346 will be retired and A333 will be split between FRA and MUC. Also, Eurowings will fly more long-haul out of MUC.

From what I gathered, and this was also in "Der Spiegel" a few weeks ago, this "Jump" project that they had with 18C seats and the rest Y+ and Y on their A343's are to be abandoned and A/C will return to normal configuration, so it seems they will be kept on for the foreseeable future. Makes sense since second-hand market of A343 is virtually non existent and those A/C have been installed with the same business class cabin as on other long-haul jets in the fleet.

I don't know if the ex-Jump 343s will be returned to standard LH mainline configuration... Aren't most of them going to be transitioned to SN to do EW longhaul flying? I believe 6 frames are supposed to go to SN/EW over the next year-and-a-half, and I thought there were only 7 in Jump configuration.

Lufthansa must return to Sao Paulo and Bangkok from Munich! the economy in Brazil is recovering and the BKK-MUC route is in high demand!

EddieDude wrote:

So in terms of widebodies, LH will have in the future:

FRA.- A333s, 779s, 748is and A380s.
MUC- A359s and A380s.

Is this right (assuming the retirement of all 744s and A346s, and the phase out of all A343s)?

LH at some point mentioned that maybe they had ordered too few A359s and too many 779s. Is there any chance we may see some additional orders for the A359 and some cancellations or conversions for the 779s?

There have been reports / rumors that some 779s would be stationed at MUC.

I must say, having the 779 as their smallest long-haul widebody in FRA would be somewhat surprising. Similarly, the A359 is significantly larger than the A333 in LH's configuration. I would expect something more like this (after the phase out of all A340s and assuming the A350 is MUC-only, as reported):

FRA - A333, 779, 748, A380
MUC- A333, A359, 779, A380

Note that LH currently has 20 779 and 17 A359 firmly ordered to replace 18 A343, 14 A346 and 13 744 (and potentially 19 A333). That's an overall reduction in numbers. I expect an order in the 200-300 seat range sooner or later.

Did not MUC get some A380 and some A340-600 moved over to FRA? If all A350-900 go to MUC what will replace those A340 in FRA?

I wonder if LH will try SEA-MUC to go against Condor. Or did DE quit MUC?

mjoelnir wrote:

Did not MUC get some A380 and some A340-600 moved over to FRA? If all A350-900 go to MUC what will replace those A340 in FRA?

Presumably the 779? Maybe also some shift to Eurowings at CGN / DUS?

mjoelnir wrote:

Did not MUC get some A380 and some A340-600 moved over to FRA? If all A350-900 go to MUC what will replace those A340 in FRA?

A380-operations in MUC will start at the end of March 2018. MUC is currently making some modifications in that respect: http://www.aero.de/news-28664/Lufthansa ... z-vor.html

FSDan wrote:

Not surprised at all. As these are added, I'm sure the 346 will disappear from MUC.

For sure, maybe they want to replace their 4 class A330 with the A346 to maintain First Class out of FRA until the 777X arrived.

Would be interesting to know how Lufthansa plans to replace the A333s someday. There good reasons for a A339/A359 combination as well as the 787-9/10.

Anyone know what's happening with MUC's third runway project? Are they still going ahead with it?

mxaxai wrote:

Note that LH currently has 20 779 and 17 A359 firmly ordered to replace 18 A343, 14 A346 and 13 744 (and potentially 19 A333). That's an overall reduction in numbers. I expect an order in the 200-300 seat range sooner or later.

Actually it´s 25 A359 in firm order and 15 options, so there´s room for growth. This does not rule out the possibility that LH will order something smaller in the 200-300 seat range.
As for A380 @ MUC, I recall having read somewhere that in addition to the already announced 5 examples, 3 more will be moved from FRA, making MUC the main base with 8 A380 stationed there as opposed to 6 in FRA.
FRA will get some A346.

Blerg wrote:

Anyone know what's happening with MUC's third runway project? Are they still going ahead with it?

There was the annual "derblecken" (mocking of politicians) in Munich last night and they made the still present Bavarian PM saying that it will be build and not in the same sentence. Fact is, Bavaria will have a state election in autumn and nothing will hapen still then.

Next year Munich Airport will go public and one of the first decisions of the new supervisory board will be to OK the third runway. Once the runway is ready (MUC has authorty to build already, so the legal stuff is done) MUC will pass FRA as # 1 in Germany and once that has happened I would not challenge any remarks made above.

columba wrote:

Would be interesting to know how Lufthansa plans to replace the A333s someday. There good reasons for a A339/A359 combination as well as the 787-9/10.

Unless LH needs the pilot/training/commonality advantages of the A339 (and given that airlines with their own MRO ops tend to like a big and varied fleet), I'd wager them taking 787s, particularly the 787-10 since it could easily replace the 4-class A330s one for one with slight capacity increases (which is better for FRA given the slot-restricted nature of the airport, IIRC). Also the 787-9 could be great Lufthansa Group's smaller members and also for long-haul-low-cost.

StudiodeKadent wrote:

columba wrote:

Would be interesting to know how Lufthansa plans to replace the A333s someday. There good reasons for a A339/A359 combination as well as the 787-9/10.

Unless LH needs the pilot/training/commonality advantages of the A339 .

Same would aply to the 787/777-9

PanHAM wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Anyone know what's happening with MUC's third runway project? Are they still going ahead with it?

There was the annual "derblecken" (mocking of politicians) in Munich last night and they made the still present Bavarian PM saying that it will be build and not in the same sentence. Fact is, Bavaria will have a state election in autumn and nothing will hapen still then.

Next year Munich Airport will go public and one of the first decisions of the new supervisory board will be to OK the third runway. Once the runway is ready (MUC has authorty to build already, so the legal stuff is done) MUC will pass FRA as # 1 in Germany and once that has happened I would not challenge any remarks made above.

That's great to hear especially since MUC is a wonderful airport. Even with the terminal expansion the airport seems rather busy and LH's shifting of capacity it will keep on being so.

LH779 wrote:

Blotto wrote:

holzmann wrote:

I am sure FRA will be the B779 base.

Why? I'm not so sure about that

Because they will be used to replace the 744s which only fly out of FRA.

But so much can change between now and then. Just a couple of years ago, all A380's were to be based in FRA only.

columba wrote:

StudiodeKadent wrote:

columba wrote:

Would be interesting to know how Lufthansa plans to replace the A333s someday. There good reasons for a A339/A359 combination as well as the 787-9/10.

Unless LH needs the pilot/training/commonality advantages of the A339 .

Same would aply to the 787/777-9

Very fair point. Maybe LH should go 787-10 just to keep Airbus on their negotiating toes. They run an entirely-airbus narrowbody fleet after all.

LH779 wrote:

I doubt they would shift the main base of A380 operations to MUC after years of service from FRA only. A few months ago there was a thread with new A380 destinations from MUC in the winter schedule. I beleive thats just the plan for the 5 A380s in MUC in the winter rather than 3 additional planes to be based there.

That's right. Only 5 A380 go to MUC, there are no plans to move more A380s to MUC. The MUC routes are seasonal. Some of the summer routes switch to smaller equipment in winter. By the way, so far there are no plans to use the A380 in MUC after the winter schedule 2018/2019. I wonder, if LH waits how it works out with the A380 ops in MUC, or if there are other reasons.

Are there any changes to the NB fleet to accommodate the larger long haul capacity in MUC?

PanHAM wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Anyone know what's happening with MUC's third runway project? Are they still going ahead with it?

There was the annual "derblecken" (mocking of politicians) in Munich last night and they made the still present Bavarian PM saying that it will be build and not in the same sentence. Fact is, Bavaria will have a state election in autumn and nothing will hapen still then.

Next year Munich Airport will go public and one of the first decisions of the new supervisory board will be to OK the third runway. Once the runway is ready (MUC has authorty to build already, so the legal stuff is done) MUC will pass FRA as # 1 in Germany and once that has happened I would not challenge any remarks made above.

Thats fantastic to hear, and agree that there is no point to challenge your remarks! I am sure at that point all the A380s will be at MUC, together with the 779s. Once they have passed FRA, they could even challenge CDG or LHR for the top spot in Europe!

intothinair wrote:

PanHAM wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Anyone know what's happening with MUC's third runway project? Are they still going ahead with it?

There was the annual "derblecken" (mocking of politicians) in Munich last night and they made the still present Bavarian PM saying that it will be build and not in the same sentence. Fact is, Bavaria will have a state election in autumn and nothing will hapen still then.

Next year Munich Airport will go public and one of the first decisions of the new supervisory board will be to OK the third runway. Once the runway is ready (MUC has authorty to build already, so the legal stuff is done) MUC will pass FRA as # 1 in Germany and once that has happened I would not challenge any remarks made above.

Thats fantastic to hear, and agree that there is no point to challenge your remarks! I am sure at that point all the A380s will be at MUC, together with the 779s. Once they have passed FRA, they could even challenge CDG or LHR for the top spot in Europe!

They still have a long way to go before catching up to FRA. I just checked the 2017 stats and FRA handled 64,500,386 passengers (+6%) while MUC had 42,261,309 or 3% more than in 2016. I am surprised MUC didn't grow more. I was under the impression LH has been shifting a lot of capacity there especially once the satellite terminal opened.