ORD $8.5B Expansion Deal - Update: City Council Approved

ORD Boy 2 · Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:09 pm

Per Crain's (Subscription) - http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... al-planned.

A new "D" west of C, rebuilt T2 that is CUTE between UA and AA, UA gets all of 1 with Star, AA gets all of 3 with OW, DL, SkyTeam and everyone else to T5, plus a new hotel at 5, and a 10k spot Employee Lot near where Western Terminal will be.

cosyr · Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:43 am

I think the way the C Concourse extension seems like a missed opportunity. The way it is attached in those renderings seems temporary and clumsy, and eliminates valuable gate and retail space, while also requiring passengers to walk down narrow hallways that would seem like an afterthought.

Also, it will be interesting to see how United and American sharing gates will work. And it seems like Terminal 5 is currently bursting at the seams. I know they are adding gates, but it looks like all the airlines that would move over there would more than offset the gains.'

Is runway 22R part of the long term plan? It looks like the two new satellite concourses have room to grow to the north, if that runway were to be eliminated.

ual763 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:57 am

I find the dispute between American and United concerning the 5 new AAL gates, interesting. Personally, considering United is the hometown airline, and also considering we are talking about Chicago partisan politics here (and especially w/ Rahm supposedly handling final negotiations), I would be shocked if the 5 new T3 gates are on top of any future terminal plan as the article claims AAL wants. Hopefully, we'll find out in a few days.

United1 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:53 am

cosyr wrote:
I think the way the C Concourse extension seems like a missed opportunity. The way it is attached in those renderings seems temporary and clumsy, and eliminates valuable gate and retail space, while also requiring passengers to walk down narrow hallways that would seem like an afterthought.

I believe the C concourse extension was designed that way so ORD/UA could replace the original C concourse down the road...remember T1 will be 40 years old by the time this is all built. C concourse was designed to accommodate the aircraft of the time and the alley gates are not reconfigurable to fit the wingspans of todays aircraft. The alley is also getting a little narrow...

william · Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:22 am

United1 wrote:
cosyr wrote:
I think the way the C Concourse extension seems like a missed opportunity. The way it is attached in those renderings seems temporary and clumsy, and eliminates valuable gate and retail space, while also requiring passengers to walk down narrow hallways that would seem like an afterthought.

I believe the C concourse extension was designed that way so ORD/UA could replace the original C concourse down the road...remember T1 will be 40 years old by the time this is all built. C concourse was designed to accommodate the aircraft of the time and the alley gates are not reconfigurable to fit the wingspans of todays aircraft. The alley is also getting a little narrow...

Good point. T1 will always be the Terminal of Tomorrow to me.

United1 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:25 am

william wrote:
United1 wrote:
cosyr wrote:
I think the way the C Concourse extension seems like a missed opportunity. The way it is attached in those renderings seems temporary and clumsy, and eliminates valuable gate and retail space, while also requiring passengers to walk down narrow hallways that would seem like an afterthought.

I believe the C concourse extension was designed that way so ORD/UA could replace the original C concourse down the road...remember T1 will be 40 years old by the time this is all built. C concourse was designed to accommodate the aircraft of the time and the alley gates are not reconfigurable to fit the wingspans of todays aircraft. The alley is also getting a little narrow...

Good point. T1 will always be the Terminal of Tomorrow to me.

Glad to know I am not the only one who calls it that...

It's still an amazing terminal for UA but they have run out of ways to reconfigure C concourse.

chunhimlai · Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:39 am

Somethings unrelated

Gate Footage of ORD terminal

T1
Concourse G:2237ft
Concourse H&K:5636ft
Concourse L:1991ft

T2
Concourse E:2362ft
Concourse F:2074ft

T3
Concourse B:2237ft
Concourse C:5636ft

T5
Concourse M(before expansion): 3970ft

3 new concourse provide around 10000ft footage and minus the original t2 footage

5000ft footage provides addition around 15-20miillion capacity annual

jetblastdubai · Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:56 am

United1 wrote:

I believe the C concourse extension was designed that way so ORD/UA could replace the original C concourse down the road...remember T1 will be 40 years old by the time this is all built. C concourse was designed to accommodate the aircraft of the time and the alley gates are not reconfigurable to fit the wingspans of todays aircraft. The alley is also getting a little narrow...

Agree 100%. Looking at the south ends of B, C and D, it appears they are all equal distance apart so if the north side of C were to be relocated to the west later on (and widened to accommodate pax plus retail) it would be a natural fit. This would also allow widebody aircraft to taxi from the north port to the new gates on the south end which they cannot do present day.

The final layout looks very efficient for T1 users as everything is 'flow thru'. T3 is still stuck with the "box canyon" design which really hampers efficient aircraft ground movement.

I would have liked to see the net gate gains by each carrier and not just the total gate increases. Looks like concourse D has a boatload of capacity and it could be built first, without disrupting the operation of any current gate. Also, very happy to see they're sticking with pedestrian tunnels to connect C with D and not some silly, expensive 2-minute train connection.

Tugger · Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:02 am

Is anyone able to link to a plan that shows the terminal letters? I just don't know O'Hare that well.

Tugg

DfwRevolution · Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:07 am

cosyr wrote:
Is runway 22R part of the long term plan? It looks like the two new satellite concourses have room to grow to the north, if that runway were to be eliminated.

The 22 runways aren't going anywhere. The 14/32 runway will close eventually.

jetblastdubai · Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:11 am

Tugger wrote:
Is anyone able to link to a plan that shows the terminal letters? I just don't know O'Hare that well.

Tugg

http://www.flychicago.com/SiteCollectio ... rminal.pdf

chicawgo · Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:28 am

jetblastdubai wrote:
Also, very happy to see they're sticking with pedestrian tunnels to connect C with D and not some silly, expensive 2-minute train connection.

That stood out to me too... I probably wouldn’t assume that yet though. They’ve been talking about a people mover ever since this layout was created and that’s a lot of distance to travel. My bet is they will put a train under there eventually.

For what it’s worth... all of these articles have glaring inaccuracies so I’d wait to see what actually comes to fruition.

ADrum23 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:39 am

It's not ideal, but this is a nice plan. Having a second FIS facility in the new global terminal will help.

Is DL going to expand operations once they move into T5? It seems they will occupy a fair amount of gates according to this plan.

And while it won't be included this time, it still allows for full western access in the future (for passengers, not just employees).

ADrum23 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:40 am

United1 wrote:
william wrote:
United1 wrote:

I believe the C concourse extension was designed that way so ORD/UA could replace the original C concourse down the road...remember T1 will be 40 years old by the time this is all built. C concourse was designed to accommodate the aircraft of the time and the alley gates are not reconfigurable to fit the wingspans of todays aircraft. The alley is also getting a little narrow...

Good point. T1 will always be the Terminal of Tomorrow to me.

Glad to know I am not the only one who calls it that...

It's still an amazing terminal for UA but they have run out of ways to reconfigure C concourse.

If they do replace the existing Concourse C, will they keep the existing "Sky's the Limit" underground tunnel? I hope so, that is an ORD icon.

United787 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:45 am

I have been anxiously awaiting this news... can't wait to see the final announcement!

Overall, I like the plan.

I am not sure that C has the ability to be moved west if the 22 runways are staying. Plus, maybe with the reallocation of gates, they don't need to run widebodies between B & C. There are 4 runways to the south they can use.

Interesting note: See the caption at the bottom of the third graphic. It makes it seem like the new CUTE gates in T2 is NOT all Star Alliance and One World partners, just a select few, maybe 2 more (CA & CX) than the ones that currently use T1 and T3 (AC, LH, NH, BA, IB, JL) I hope not, that would be a big mistake.

EDIT: I think the JVs that UA has with LH hurts their relationships with their other *Alliance partners and I worry that will slowly erode the need for the alliances.

jetblastdubai wrote:
Also, very happy to see they're sticking with pedestrian tunnels to connect C with D and not some silly, expensive 2-minute train connection.

This is a little vague, not sure this won't include a train especially since the diagram seems to indicate the tunnels extending west to future western complex. I love the tunnel between B & C now but I don't think that will work when you more than double the distance to D.

UA will end up with a lot more newer concourses in this plan but the layout will be more of a pain for O&D passengers. AA on the other hand will be better for O&D pax with closer access to the front doors but will be in older terminals. From what others are saying, UA will have a better layout operationally.

ual763 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:42 am

ADrum23 wrote:
It's not ideal, but this is a nice plan. Having a second FIS facility in the new global terminal will help.

Is DL going to expand operations once they move into T5? It seems they will occupy a fair amount of gates according to this plan.

And while it won't be included this time, it still allows for full western access in the future (for passengers, not just employees).

I would imagine Delta will gain a few gates compared to what they have now, but keep in mind, the article also says that Spirit, Alaska, Jetblue, and Frontier will also be moving their ops over to T5. Spirit and a Frontier already have an arguably sizeable operation at ORD. The article also says, the latter will be receiving a net gain of 5-10 new gates. This wouldn't give Delta that much more gates than they already have. KLM, Air France, Korean, &Aeromexico will be staying in T5 as well. But, then again, one also has to keep in mind, that they will inevitably be turning a lot of the Heavy T5 gates into smaller gates. This will definitely creat more gates for carriers like Delta at T5.

ual763 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:49 am

So from the sketch provided on the website, it looks as if concourse G of T3 (at least the western side), will be part of the new T2, with multiple heavy gates. This will take away quite a few regional gates from American Eagle flights, even with the 5 new L gates

ual763 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:05 am

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html

The Tribune article above goes into even more detail. Looks like the new plan will include a new hotel at T5, a new hotel at an intermodal facility, and the complete renovation of the current airport Hilton. It also says, that terminals 1,3, & 5 will get architectural renovations. Definitely take a look at this article. Lots of cool things, including 50,000 sq. ft. lounges in T2 for both AAL and UAL, as well as 2 more concourses to the west in about 10-15 years!!

cosyr · Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:02 pm

United787 wrote:
I have been anxiously awaiting this news... can't wait to see the final announcement!

Overall, I like the plan.

I am not sure that C has the ability to be moved west if the 22 runways are staying. Plus, maybe with the reallocation of gates, they don't need to run widebodies between B & C. There are 4 runways to the south they can use.

Interesting note: See the caption at the bottom of the third graphic. It makes it seem like the new CUTE gates in T2 is NOT all Star Alliance and One World partners, just a select few, maybe 2 more (CA & CX) than the ones that currently use T1 and T3 (AC, LH, NH, BA, IB, JL) I hope not, that would be a big mistake.

EDIT: I think the JVs that UA has with LH hurts their relationships with their other *Alliance partners and I worry that will slowly erode the need for the alliances.

jetblastdubai wrote:
Also, very happy to see they're sticking with pedestrian tunnels to connect C with D and not some silly, expensive 2-minute train connection.

This is a little vague, not sure this won't include a train especially since the diagram seems to indicate the tunnels extending west to future western complex. I love the tunnel between B & C now but I don't think that will work when you more than double the distance to D.

UA will end up with a lot more newer concourses in this plan but the layout will be more of a pain for O&D passengers. AA on the other hand will be better for O&D pax with closer access to the front doors but will be in older terminals. From what others are saying, UA will have a better layout operationally.

It would obviously be unreasonably expensive, but there is more than enough room to move 22R to the Northwest a little bit. It would have been smart decades ago, but the net gain in space probably wouldn't be worth the cost.

I assume there will be a train that will go from D to C to new Terminal 2, and they would keep the existing tunnel from North C to B, but hopefully they would learn from CVG's, ATL's and DEN's of the past and design a sizeable pedestrian tunnel with trains on either side to accommodate all circumstances. DEN was a crazy design with all it's switchbacks. Everything was planned around the need to pass a train that was disabled, but no thought given to when ALL trains were disabled?

william · Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:27 pm

ual763 wrote:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-met-city-hall-story-20180223-story.html

The Tribune article above goes into even more detail. Looks like the new plan will include a new hotel at T5, a new hotel at an intermodal facility, and the complete renovation of the current airport Hilton. It also says, that terminals 1,3, & 5 will get architectural renovations. Definitely take a look at this article. Lots of cool things, including 50,000 sq. ft. lounges in T2 for both AAL and UAL, as well as 2 more concourses to the west in about 10-15 years!!

Great article. AA will still be in 55 year old T3 . Eventually T3 will need to be replaced. Will AA move to the new west terminal? Anyone moving to Satellite 3 and 4 will be at a disadvantage coming from Downtown.

CHI787ORD · Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:28 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
It's not ideal, but this is a nice plan. Having a second FIS facility in the new global terminal will help.

Is DL going to expand operations once they move into T5? It seems they will occupy a fair amount of gates according to this plan.

And while it won't be included this time, it still allows for full western access in the future (for passengers, not just employees).

TBD. They will be sharing T5 with skyteam carriers (AM, AF, KL, KE, MU), as well as non aligned international carriers (FI, DY, EK, EY, WW, WS), and domestic low cost carriers like NK. Its definitely an upgrade for DL but any non Star or Oneworld growth automatically goes to T5, which limits DL from having a larger operation.

CHI787ORD · Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:32 pm

william wrote:
ual763 wrote:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-met-city-hall-story-20180223-story.html

The Tribune article above goes into even more detail. Looks like the new plan will include a new hotel at T5, a new hotel at an intermodal facility, and the complete renovation of the current airport Hilton. It also says, that terminals 1,3, & 5 will get architectural renovations. Definitely take a look at this article. Lots of cool things, including 50,000 sq. ft. lounges in T2 for both AAL and UAL, as well as 2 more concourses to the west in about 10-15 years!!

Great article. AA will still be in 55 year old T3 . Eventually T3 will need to be replaced. Will AA move to the new west terminal? Anyone moving to Satellite 3 and 4 will be at a disadvantage coming from Downtown.

I'm still skeptical Western Terminal will ever be built unless ORD starts consistently posting double digit passenger growth every year. You could setup some temporary concourses on the western side if T3 was demolished and rebuilt however.

william · Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:37 pm

CHI787ORD wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
It's not ideal, but this is a nice plan. Having a second FIS facility in the new global terminal will help.

Is DL going to expand operations once they move into T5? It seems they will occupy a fair amount of gates according to this plan.

And while it won't be included this time, it still allows for full western access in the future (for passengers, not just employees).

TBD. They will be sharing T5 with skyteam carriers (AM, AF, KL, KE, MU), as well as non aligned international carriers (FI, DY, EK, EY, WW, WS), and domestic low cost carriers like NK. Its definitely an upgrade for DL but any non Star or Oneworld growth automatically goes to T5, which limits DL from having a larger operation.

Not necessarily, some of those WB gates will be resized for NB aircraft.

CHI787ORD · Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:43 pm

The arrivals hall at T5 will definitely need to be reconfigured to allow for more domestic baggage claim. Perhaps its easiest just to split that hall in half- one wing of T5 arrivals going to CBP and Immigration, the other being a domestic arrivals hall.

United787 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:14 pm

CHI787ORD wrote:
I'm still skeptical Western Terminal will ever be built unless ORD starts consistently posting double digit passenger growth every year.

Me too but ORD can't have double digit growth without some more gates... they are totally maxed out. The growth they have had has been an upgauge of aircraft sizing... but there is only so much of that they can do.

ILS28ORD · Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 pm

I know this means DL will essentially have the same number of gates when they move to T5 as they do now, but shouldn't they be able to use larger aircraft and probably add a few destinations they do not currently serve from ORD? If they will be in a terminal with many of their INTL partners, won't they want to feed those flights, at least more than they currently do? This could make ORD a connecting spot for INTL travel on DL, secondary to DTW and maybe better than MSP in some cases.

Acey559 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:44 pm

The Crain’s article has a nice rendering and a new graphic or two I haven’t seen. The bottom one is nice to visualize new gate useage by the airlines.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... serAgent=1

United787 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:01 pm

I just read the Tribune article, very thorough and generally well covered. The graphic showing the proposed terminal layout seems to be inaccurate for the two new UA concourses.

The timing of this couldn't be better for the Amazon HQ2, but I still think Chicago is a long shot.

william · Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:13 pm

Acey559 wrote:
The Crain’s article has a nice rendering and a new graphic or two I haven’t seen. The bottom one is nice to visualize new gate useage by the airlines.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/ ... serAgent=1

I see a way forward for UA to rebuild its T1, from the ground up when the time comes, but not AA's 55 year old facility.

CHI787ORD · Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:37 pm

ILS28ORD wrote:
I know this means DL will essentially have the same number of gates when they move to T5 as they do now, but shouldn't they be able to use larger aircraft and probably add a few destinations they do not currently serve from ORD? If they will be in a terminal with many of their INTL partners, won't they want to feed those flights, at least more than they currently do? This could make ORD a connecting spot for INTL travel on DL, secondary to DTW and maybe better than MSP in some cases.

Theoretically yes but I doubt AA and UA will sign off on any deal that will let DL massively expand at ORD.

Having AA, UA, WN, DL all have hubs or large focus cities in the Chicago area would essentially turn ORD + MDW into LAX.

chicawgo · Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:41 pm

CHI787ORD wrote:
ILS28ORD wrote:
Having AA, UA, WN, DL all have hubs or large focus cities in the Chicago area would essentially turn ORD + MDW into LAX.

Except that ORD geography is a natural domestic connection point as opposed to LAX.

neomax · Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:03 pm

CHI787ORD wrote:
Theoretically yes but I doubt AA and UA will sign off on any deal that will let DL massively expand at ORD.

Well, their first mistake was letting DL get this far in the first place! ORD will never be anything like DTW/MSP for DL, but it will almost certainly be a lot bigger than it is now. The most precious real estate in aviation are gates, and DL is being handed them on a silver platter in a high yield city. DL would be beyond stupid to not take all of them and add as many flights as possible, including LHR, CDG, AMS at an absolute minimum. I would not be surprised to see DL overtake WN as the third biggest airline in Chicago once this is all said and done. I personally think the DL/T5 part of this deal has gone completely unnoticed under the radar, and is underrated beyond belief. I don't know if people simply don't understand the significance of it or just don't know to begin with. In my opinion, the biggest winner in the entire thing is DL but surprisingly few people have realized that. While DL will never be anything next to UA and AA at ORD, it will be enough to make a noticeable dent. T5 is nothing but widebody gates, and has all the infrastructure to support int'l flights, so there is no way DL is going to give that up. I can realistically see ORD becoming something a bit bigger than your average focus city, and enough to make ORD the first three-way hub city in the US. If DL adds a few TATL flights, it will already be on par with MSP, and with a SEA style buildup, it could become something worth keeping.

neomax · Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:03 pm

Deleted.

tphuang · Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:27 pm

neomax wrote:
CHI787ORD wrote:
Theoretically yes but I doubt AA and UA will sign off on any deal that will let DL massively expand at ORD.

Well, their first mistake was letting DL get this far in the first place! ORD will never be anything like DTW/MSP for DL, but it will almost certainly be a lot bigger than it is now. The most precious real estate in aviation are gates, and DL is being handed them on a silver platter in a high yield city. DL would be beyond stupid to not take all of them and add as many flights as possible, including LHR, CDG, AMS at an absolute minimum. I would not be surprised to see DL overtake WN as the third biggest airline in Chicago once this is all said and done. I personally think the DL/T5 part of this deal has gone completely unnoticed under the radar, and is underrated beyond belief. I don't know if people simply don't understand the significance of it or just don't know to begin with. In my opinion, the biggest winner in the entire thing is DL but surprisingly few people have realized that. While DL will never be anything next to UA and AA at ORD, it will be enough to make a noticeable dent. T5 is nothing but widebody gates, and has all the infrastructure to support int'l flights, so there is no way DL is going to give that up. I can realistically see ORD becoming something a bit bigger than your average focus city, and enough to make ORD the first three-way hub city in the US. If DL adds a few TATL flights, it will already be on par with MSP, and with a SEA style buildup, it could become something worth keeping.

Have you seen the yield on dl adding sea out of ord? Absolutely horrendous. There is a reason they don’t even fly to lax.

jbs2886 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:27 pm

neomax wrote:
CHI787ORD wrote:
Theoretically yes but I doubt AA and UA will sign off on any deal that will let DL massively expand at ORD.

Well, their first mistake was letting DL get this far in the first place! ORD will never be anything like DTW/MSP for DL, but it will almost certainly be a lot bigger than it is now. The most precious real estate in aviation are gates, and DL is being handed them on a silver platter in a high yield city. DL would be beyond stupid to not take all of them and add as many flights as possible, including LHR, CDG, AMS at an absolute minimum. I would not be surprised to see DL overtake WN as the third biggest airline in Chicago once this is all said and done. I personally think the DL/T5 part of this deal has gone completely unnoticed under the radar, and is underrated beyond belief. I don't know if people simply don't understand the significance of it or just don't know to begin with. In my opinion, the biggest winner in the entire thing is DL but surprisingly few people have realized that. While DL will never be anything next to UA and AA at ORD, it will be enough to make a noticeable dent. T5 is nothing but widebody gates, and has all the infrastructure to support int'l flights, so there is no way DL is going to give that up. I can realistically see ORD becoming something a bit bigger than your average focus city, and enough to make ORD the first three-way hub city in the US. If DL adds a few TATL flights, it will already be on par with MSP, and with a SEA style buildup, it could become something worth keeping.

There is no way this gives DL enough gates to overtake WN at MDW.

CHI787ORD · Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:51 pm

neomax wrote:
CHI787ORD wrote:
Theoretically yes but I doubt AA and UA will sign off on any deal that will let DL massively expand at ORD.

Well, their first mistake was letting DL get this far in the first place! ORD will never be anything like DTW/MSP for DL, but it will almost certainly be a lot bigger than it is now. The most precious real estate in aviation are gates, and DL is being handed them on a silver platter in a high yield city. DL would be beyond stupid to not take all of them and add as many flights as possible, including LHR, CDG, AMS at an absolute minimum. I would not be surprised to see DL overtake WN as the third biggest airline in Chicago once this is all said and done. I personally think the DL/T5 part of this deal has gone completely unnoticed under the radar, and is underrated beyond belief. I don't know if people simply don't understand the significance of it or just don't know to begin with. In my opinion, the biggest winner in the entire thing is DL but surprisingly few people have realized that. While DL will never be anything next to UA and AA at ORD, it will be enough to make a noticeable dent. T5 is nothing but widebody gates, and has all the infrastructure to support int'l flights, so there is no way DL is going to give that up. I can realistically see ORD becoming something a bit bigger than your average focus city, and enough to make ORD the first three-way hub city in the US. If DL adds a few TATL flights, it will already be on par with MSP, and with a SEA style buildup, it could become something worth keeping.

Do you have any clue how big WN is at MDW? It's their biggest focus city/hub operation with over 70 destinations nonstop.

neomax · Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:05 pm

CHI787ORD wrote:
Do you have any clue how big WN is at MDW? It's their biggest focus city/hub operation with over 70 destinations nonstop.

Yes, and if DL is going to create something worth having at ORD, it will probably have to surpass that. Otherwise, they can forget about it.

mercure1 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:15 pm

This looks like the lowest bidder option.
Why not something more efficient like multi N/S satellite terminals west of the C concourse. Ala ATL or MUC.
Underwhelming.

chicawgo · Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:26 pm

neomax wrote:
CHI787ORD wrote:
Do you have any clue how big WN is at MDW? It's their biggest focus city/hub operation with over 70 destinations nonstop.

Yes, and if DL is going to create something worth having at ORD, it will probably have to surpass that. Otherwise, they can forget about it.

You're the one that suggested that. There's no evidence they're going to actually do that.

To your original point though, I do think it's significant. The most crucial part is that they now will have an extremely convenient connection point for popular international carriers. AF, KL, AZ, KE, MU and AM all fly to ORD and they would be able to connect domestic routes within the same concourse. I'm really surprised UA and AA are allowing this. It gives DL the chance to potentially win over some Chicago loyalty. Very few people are happy with UA or AA and would probably be impressed with DL.

jbs2886 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:26 pm

mercure1 wrote:
This looks like the lowest bidder option.
Why not something more efficient like multi N/S satellite terminals west of the C concourse. Ala ATL or MUC.
Underwhelming.

Because that costs a lot of money. The airlines don't want to pay for it.

jfk777 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:35 pm

Finally ORD will have a centrally located FIS station in the main terminal area close to its two hub airlines and not out in the boonies of terminal 5. ORD deserves this and late is better then never, ths should have happened 20 years ago.

ual763 · Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:01 am

neomax wrote:
CHI787ORD wrote:
Theoretically yes but I doubt AA and UA will sign off on any deal that will let DL massively expand at ORD.

Well, their first mistake was letting DL get this far in the first place! ORD will never be anything like DTW/MSP for DL, but it will almost certainly be a lot bigger than it is now. The most precious real estate in aviation are gates, and DL is being handed them on a silver platter in a high yield city. DL would be beyond stupid to not take all of them and add as many flights as possible, including LHR, CDG, AMS at an absolute minimum. I would not be surprised to see DL overtake WN as the third biggest airline in Chicago once this is all said and done. I personally think the DL/T5 part of this deal has gone completely unnoticed under the radar, and is underrated beyond belief. I don't know if people simply don't understand the significance of it or just don't know to begin with. In my opinion, the biggest winner in the entire thing is DL but surprisingly few people have realized that. While DL will never be anything next to UA and AA at ORD, it will be enough to make a noticeable dent. T5 is nothing but widebody gates, and has all the infrastructure to support int'l flights, so there is no way DL is going to give that up. I can realistically see ORD becoming something a bit bigger than your average focus city, and enough to make ORD the first three-way hub city in the US. If DL adds a few TATL flights, it will already be on par with MSP, and with a SEA style buildup, it could become something worth keeping.

I think Delta will get a few more gates out of the deal, but I doubt it'll be a huge increase from their current number. Remember, they will have to share T5 with all of the other Skyteam airlines, all of the budget airlines, and also, more than likely, the non-alliance international airlines. One of the published articles, also mentioned Frontier will be gaining 5-10 gates out of the deal. If that happens, there simply won't be enough room at T5 to handle any large Delta capacity increases, even with the downsizing of gates. Remember, half of them will probably remain widebody gates. As far as Delta turning ORD into an international hub, I highly doubt it. They already have a huge international hub at Detroit, and a mini- international hub at MSP. There's simply too much competition with their own alliance partners in my opinion. They don't have very much domestic feed into O'hare to make it viable. They've tried ORD-CDG in the past, and it failed. I don't think they'll do it again. If Frontier gains 5-10 gates as the article states, they will walk away the biggest winners. Spirit and Jetblue will no doubt want more as well. I could even see Allegiant moving to ORD from RFD.

kngkyle · Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:18 am

The new Terminal 2 would be an excellent terminus for the O'Hare - downtown express service that Elon Musk is competing to build.
https://chicago.curbed.com/2018/2/7/169 ... press-loop

If they can manage to build all of this by 2026 I will be thoroughly impressed.

ual763 · Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:52 am

kngkyle wrote:
The new Terminal 2 would be an excellent terminus for the O'Hare - downtown express service that Elon Musk is competing to build.
https://chicago.curbed.com/2018/2/7/169 ... press-loop

If they can manage to build all of this by 2026 I will be thoroughly impressed.

It will be quite impressive to watch. It's about time Chicago gets some love!

jayunited · Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:59 am

neomax wrote:

Well, their first mistake was letting DL get this far in the first place! ORD will never be anything like DTW/MSP for DL, but it will almost certainly be a lot bigger than it is now. The most precious real estate in aviation are gates, and DL is being handed them on a silver platter in a high yield city. DL would be beyond stupid to not take all of them and add as many flights as possible, including LHR, CDG, AMS at an absolute minimum. I would not be surprised to see DL overtake WN as the third biggest airline in Chicago once this is all said and done. I personally think the DL/T5 part of this deal has gone completely unnoticed under the radar, and is underrated beyond belief. I don't know if people simply don't understand the significance of it or just don't know to begin with. In my opinion, the biggest winner in the entire thing is DL but surprisingly few people have realized that. While DL will never be anything next to UA and AA at ORD, it will be enough to make a noticeable dent. T5 is nothing but widebody gates, and has all the infrastructure to support int'l flights, so there is no way DL is going to give that up. I can realistically see ORD becoming something a bit bigger than your average focus city, and enough to make ORD the first three-way hub city in the US. If DL adds a few TATL flights, it will already be on par with MSP, and with a SEA style buildup, it could become something worth keeping.

Pump the breaks just a bit, you do realize ever since DL's merger with NW and their subsequent move from T3 over to T2 DL has been loosing gates to UA. When DL/NW mergered UA only had gates E1 through E2A. Fast forward to today and United has E1 through E12 and UA is actually getting another gate on the E concourse later this year.

Looking towards the future DL will be sharing T5 will all the other low cost carriers plus every international carrier that is not aligned with Star or One World. I think most people on this thread understand what DL is getting at T5 and when you stop and take a look at it they will not be getting much in fact quite the opposite. Terminal 5 will only gain an additional 9 gates and most international carriers occupy a gate at least for 2 hours if not longer so if you look at it objectively DL's is getting screwed because not only will they have to fight it out with low cost carriers they will have to fight is out with the international carriers as well, and if you took the time to read all of the articles on this topic you will notice Rahm's major focus is increasing the total number of international passengers and airlines at ORD. Any international airline that adds service to ORD which is not aligned with Star or One will be another airline that takes a gate away from DL and or the low cost carriers at T5. With the City of Chicago controlling who utilizes what gates at T5, DL will have a few dedicated gates that are for their operations exclusively probably the same number they have now but anything more than that DL will probably be screwed.

This deal is not in DL's favor but this is exactly what AA and UA had in mind, and as far as the western access terminal from what I've heard ( and it is just rumor) both United and American for right now are on the same page they will not pay for a western access terminal even once construction is finished on the main terminals.

william · Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:59 am

How many gates will Delta have at T5?

ual763 · Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:38 am

william wrote:
How many gates will Delta have at T5?

Judging by the following photo, it looks like a total of 8. It's hard to tell though, since they completely screwed up the color coding. P.s. - You'd think they'd get this sort of thing right on major press releases.

The picture makes it sound as if the only Star airlines that will be at T2, are Air China, Lufthansa, Air Canada, and ANA. Personally, I'd be shocked if SAS, Ethiopian, Austrian, LOT, & Turkish get left out.

727200 · Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:55 am

I did a quick count and though the diagram is not the best, but I see UA will have upwards of 77 gates and share another 12; total of 89? At least that what it shows with all the planes at the 3 concourses. If that is indeed the case, good luck to AA, DL, and anyone else because that is about 40-43% of all gates. Doesn't matter what the other guys add to their schedule, they will never catch UA.

ADrum23 · Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:04 am

chicawgo wrote:
neomax wrote:
CHI787ORD wrote:
Do you have any clue how big WN is at MDW? It's their biggest focus city/hub operation with over 70 destinations nonstop.

Yes, and if DL is going to create something worth having at ORD, it will probably have to surpass that. Otherwise, they can forget about it.

You're the one that suggested that. There's no evidence they're going to actually do that.

To your original point though, I do think it's significant. The most crucial part is that they now will have an extremely convenient connection point for popular international carriers. AF, KL, AZ, KE, MU and AM all fly to ORD and they would be able to connect domestic routes within the same concourse. I'm really surprised UA and AA are allowing this. It gives DL the chance to potentially win over some Chicago loyalty. Very few people are happy with UA or AA and would probably be impressed with DL.

I would be shocked if DL put a focus city (or even p2p flying) in ORD (though I'd be thrilled if they did), considering it is sandwiched in between their MSP and DTW hubs. At most, I see them adding LAX and that is it.

neomax · Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:17 am

ADrum23 wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
neomax wrote:

Yes, and if DL is going to create something worth having at ORD, it will probably have to surpass that. Otherwise, they can forget about it.

You're the one that suggested that. There's no evidence they're going to actually do that.

To your original point though, I do think it's significant. The most crucial part is that they now will have an extremely convenient connection point for popular international carriers. AF, KL, AZ, KE, MU and AM all fly to ORD and they would be able to connect domestic routes within the same concourse. I'm really surprised UA and AA are allowing this. It gives DL the chance to potentially win over some Chicago loyalty. Very few people are happy with UA or AA and would probably be impressed with DL.

I would be shocked if DL put a focus city (or even p2p flying) in ORD (though I'd be thrilled if they did), considering it is sandwiched in between their MSP and DTW hubs. At most, I see them adding LAX and that is it.

None of DL's hubs (DTW and MSP included) have as many SkyTeam partners as ORD does. If DL and its partners are under a single roof, it would blow the doors off anything they have right now both in terms of ease and the actual number of partners. Connecting from DL to any one of a wide array of SkyTeam partners would be a piece of cake compared to what you have to do to connect to the same airlines at JFK or LAX. This would be a massive win for Delta.

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