Hawaiian Airlines Retires The Sole Boeing 767-300 (non ER version)

CaptainAce · Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:18 pm

According to Planespotters.net the sole original Boeing 767-300 in Hawaiian Airlines’ fleet had its last flight on January 31 from SJC-HNL. The following day it was ferried HNL-MZJ where it has been stored.

How was it like to fly on these planes? Were they as updated as the 763ERs or A332/A333s? How bad was the fuel economy on these? And lastly why did Hawaiian keep this aircraft for so long? I think the 763 retired before that was in 2015 so that means that this was the only original 763 in the fleet for 3 years. Was this done because of aircraft deliveries or something else?

777PHX · Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:20 pm

Your thread title is incredibly deceptive. Hawaiian will continue to fly the 767 for a couple more years yet.

leleko747 · Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:29 pm

I guess the OP was referring to the B767-300 non ER?
Anyway, misleading title indeed... although tecnically not wrong.

airzona11 · Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:33 pm

CaptainAce wrote:
According to Planespotters.net the sole original Boeing 767-300 in Hawaiian Airlines’ fleet had its last flight on January 31 from SJC-HNL. The following day it was ferried HNL-MZJ where it has been stored.

How was it like to fly on these planes? Were they as updated as the 763ERs or A332/A333s? How bad was the fuel economy on these? And lastly why did Hawaiian keep this aircraft for so long? I think the 763 retired before that was in 2015 so that means that this was the only original 763 in the fleet for 3 years. Was this done because of aircraft deliveries or something else?

There isn't too much difference operationally between the 763/ER. DL still has some flying around. These planes have reached the point where they are old. They served HA well for the midhaul stage lengths they flew them.

catiii · Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:35 pm

I thought they were on the property until the end of the year?

NickolayAv · Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:47 pm

777PHX wrote:
Your thread title is incredibly deceptive. Hawaiian will continue to fly the 767 for a couple more years yet.

He means the last 767 that is not ER

MSPNWA · Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:48 pm

Read the first post before replying, folks. You can tell when people only read the title.

CaptainAce wrote:
According to Planespotters.net the sole original Boeing 767-300 in Hawaiian Airlines’ fleet had its last flight on January 31 from SJC-HNL. The following day it was ferried HNL-MZJ where it has been stored.

How was it like to fly on these planes? Were they as updated as the 763ERs or A332/A333s? How bad was the fuel economy on these? And lastly why did Hawaiian keep this aircraft for so long? I think the 763 retired before that was in 2015 so that means that this was the only original 763 in the fleet for 3 years. Was this done because of aircraft deliveries or something else?

I think they only had four non-ERs, all second hand from DL. Three had been retired a few years ago as you said. N594HA was the last one left, ironically the oldest of the four, and I flew on it in 2016. I've also been wondering why that one flew for so much longer than its sisters. Fuel economy would be pretty good on a dense 763A.

Inside it was clearly showing its age. It was like the original interior but with some refreshes such as curved overhead bin doors that created a bit more room (still small bins though). Overhead TV was the entertainment. Everything was fairly worn, like seats, windows, etc. And it was a rattler. But it got the job done.

777ER · Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:32 pm

I've edited the thread title to reflect its the non ER model retired from service

MO11 · Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:46 pm

CaptainAce wrote:
According to Planespotters.net the sole original Boeing 767-300 in Hawaiian Airlines’ fleet had its last flight on January 31 from SJC-HNL. The following day it was ferried HNL-MZJ where it has been stored.

How was it like to fly on these planes? Were they as updated as the 763ERs or A332/A333s? How bad was the fuel economy on these? And lastly why did Hawaiian keep this aircraft for so long? I think the 763 retired before that was in 2015 so that means that this was the only original 763 in the fleet for 3 years. Was this done because of aircraft deliveries or something else?

Remember that Hawaiian acquired its 767-300 (ER) fleet in 2001 - 2003. The four Delta 767-300s were acquired in 2006 for route expansion, since suitable ER versions couldn't be found. They were pretty much Delta 767s except for the seat covers and entertainment system. I'm sure timing of their retirement was related to where they were in the maintenance cycle.

dcajet · Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:37 am

777PHX wrote:
Your thread title is incredibly deceptive. Hawaiian will continue to fly the 767 for a couple more years yet.

Actually, Hawaiian is phasing out the last 3 763ERs this year. They are owned by Boeing Capital and they are going to join United's 767 fleet.

KLMatSJC · Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:58 am

dcajet wrote:
777PHX wrote:
Your thread title is incredibly deceptive. Hawaiian will continue to fly the 767 for a couple more years yet.

Actually, Hawaiian is phasing out the last 3 763ERs this year. They are owned by Boeing Capital and they are going to join United's 767 fleet.

Hawaiian will still have four left after the three go to UA.

MO11 · Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:06 am

dcajet wrote:
Actually, Hawaiian is phasing out the last 3 763ERs this year. They are owned by Boeing Capital and they are going to join United's 767 fleet.

Actually, Hawaiian bought those airplanes off lease.

KLMatSJC wrote:
Hawaiian will still have four left after the three go to UA.

Hawaiian is phasing out six 767s this year which includes the Delta airplane just retired, and N583, which is leased.

n901wa · Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:36 am

Hi CaptainAce, You might get to find out how it was first hand if you want. 594 is in check in MJZ and will go back in service with Hawaiian soon.

HALFA · Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:24 pm

n901wa wrote:
Hi CaptainAce, You might get to find out how it was first hand if you want. 594 is in check in MJZ and will go back in service with Hawaiian soon.

While I haven't seen any official announcement from HA management regarding this, I did find it odd that 594 is indeed being ferried to PAE today from MJZ with a Hawaiian crew. I'm guessing we are bringing it back until the A321 Neo engine issue gets sorted out.

XAM2175 · Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:11 pm

CaptainAce wrote:
How bad was the fuel economy on these?

Given that the 763 isn't hauling around all the extra structural weight the ER has as part of the 2000 nmi range extension, I kinda feel that the economy might have actually been pretty decent.

HNLPointShoot · Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:52 pm

CaptainAce wrote:
Were they as updated as the 763ERs or A332/A333s? How bad was the fuel economy on these? And lastly why did Hawaiian keep this aircraft for so long? I think the 763 retired before that was in 2015 so that means that this was the only original 763 in the fleet for 3 years. Was this done because of aircraft deliveries or something else?

594 (and 596-598) were already old and dated when HA picked them up in 2006 (594 first flew in 1986, so it's 32 years old now), which is how HA bought them from DL for peanuts. (IIRC, the purchase cost was single-digit millions per airframe, plus refitting them with a new interior to match the rest of the fleet.) HA's Hawaii-West Coast flights are typically scheduled so that the plane departs HNL in the afternoon, remains overnight on the Mainland for 8-10 hours, and returns to HNL the following morning, so they're only flying 12-14 hours a day (where DL or another mainline airline would've flown them at least 16 hours a day). That schedule also means they're only adding 2 cycles per day, instead of 3 or 4 per day, so their remaining useful life could last much longer with HA than with DL.

So, even if they cost a little more to operate than the newer 763ERs, and even if they added some operational complexity (since the 763 engines had less thrust), it was a pretty good investment for a set of planes that lasted about a decade. (Plus, it's entirely possible that HA will end up flying 594 for a little longer until P&W starts delivering new engines for the A321s.)

kunta67 · Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:42 pm

594 is still showing in Arizona. Is it still being ferried to PAE?

Xtremespeed01 · Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:03 pm

That's what has been said that N594HA will be brought back. HA had to adjust a few flights as well as cancel some planned summer flights because of the delayed arrivals of the A321neo. They were suppose to have been receiving them once a month since Jan. with N205HA that was suppose to have been delivered this past week.

HA still has some planned flights still being shown for purchase, the HNL-LGB and KOA-LAX. So it would have been smart to bring back a plane to keep a spare handy.

From what I've heard, 594 was a headache of a plane that everyone that had to deal with the aircraft was happy it left. Now many are bummed its coming back.

sevenheavy · Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:23 pm

I flew on '594 a couple of times back in 2014. It was somewhat unique (I realise almost all B767 were originally operated without winglets) to fly on a non-winglet, non ER B767. It was a comfortable ride with decent sized seats and pitch. No IFE to speak of (maybe overhead screens?) but I knew that and it was fine for a 5 hour trip.

I like the B767 in general, particularly when compared to some of the smaller aircraft flying to Hawaii and the flights were on time and issue free. I'm glad to see her get a temporary stay. The A321's will be around for years so plenty of time to try one out!

As an aside, I was told that '583 was by far the biggest headache in the fleet. I don't have anything to back that up but a couple of the FA's rolled their eyes when I mentioned my previous trip had been on '583!

7673mech · Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:07 pm

MO11 wrote:
CaptainAce wrote:
According to Planespotters.net the sole original Boeing 767-300 in Hawaiian Airlines’ fleet had its last flight on January 31 from SJC-HNL. The following day it was ferried HNL-MZJ where it has been stored.

How was it like to fly on these planes? Were they as updated as the 763ERs or A332/A333s? How bad was the fuel economy on these? And lastly why did Hawaiian keep this aircraft for so long? I think the 763 retired before that was in 2015 so that means that this was the only original 763 in the fleet for 3 years. Was this done because of aircraft deliveries or something else?

Remember that Hawaiian acquired its 767-300 (ER) fleet in 2001 - 2003. The four Delta 767-300s were acquired in 2006 for route expansion, since suitable ER versions couldn't be found. They were pretty much Delta 767s except for the seat covers and entertainment system. I'm sure timing of their retirement was related to where they were in the maintenance cycle.

It was a little more then seat covers ...
When the went into service they received new seats, lavatory refurbishment, overhead bins, Avionics and ETOPs enhancements.
Considerable money was put into them. It wasn't just new seat covers.

MO11 · Mon May 07, 2018 5:06 pm

Scheduled to fly back to HNL today.....

bzcat · Mon May 07, 2018 7:34 pm

Going back to service because A321 delivery delays?

deebee278 · Mon May 07, 2018 8:02 pm

I'm either confused or uninformed. How can a non ER fly HNL-SJC? (That ETOPS thing) Mainland charters and fly empty across the Pacific?

WN732 · Mon May 07, 2018 8:10 pm

deebee278 wrote:
I'm either confused or uninformed. How can a non ER fly HNL-SJC? (That ETOPS thing) Mainland charters and fly empty across the Pacific?

ER is for additional fuel tanks. This is not a requirement for ETOPS.

azjubilee · Mon May 07, 2018 8:15 pm

bzcat wrote:
Going back to service because A321 delivery delays?

Yes. But the 321neo deliveries are resuming this month.

RetiredNWA · Mon May 07, 2018 9:13 pm

There is a specific difference between ETOPS operations and -ER configured aircraft.

An -ER aircraft is not necessarily required for ETOPS operations. Also, an -ER aircraft may not necessarily be configured for ETOPS.

The suffix designator -ER only refers to additional fuel tanks which extend the flying range of the airframe. So, a 767-300ER has additional fuel capability over a standard -300. It may or may not be configured for ETOPS operations, which require specific navigation and communication equipment, additional safety equipment for the cabin, et cetera.

deebee278 · Mon May 07, 2018 11:05 pm

RetiredNWA wrote:
There is a specific difference between ETOPS operations and -ER configured aircraft.

An -ER aircraft is not necessarily required for ETOPS operations. Also, an -ER aircraft may not necessarily be configured for ETOPS.

The suffix designator -ER only refers to additional fuel tanks which extend the flying range of the airframe. So, a 767-300ER has additional fuel capability over a standard -300. It may or may not be configured for ETOPS operations, which require specific navigation and communication equipment, additional safety equipment for the cabin, et cetera.

Thanks for the explanation. AA didn't have such a thing unless I fell asleep that afternoon during class

flyingclrs727 · Mon May 07, 2018 11:20 pm

deebee278 wrote:
RetiredNWA wrote:
There is a specific difference between ETOPS operations and -ER configured aircraft.

An -ER aircraft is not necessarily required for ETOPS operations. Also, an -ER aircraft may not necessarily be configured for ETOPS.

The suffix designator -ER only refers to additional fuel tanks which extend the flying range of the airframe. So, a 767-300ER has additional fuel capability over a standard -300. It may or may not be configured for ETOPS operations, which require specific navigation and communication equipment, additional safety equipment for the cabin, et cetera.

Well doesn't the ER version have higher takeoff and landing weights too?

Thanks for the explanation. AA didn't have such a thing unless I fell asleep that afternoon during class

Spacepope · Tue May 08, 2018 12:24 am

deebee278 wrote:
RetiredNWA wrote:
There is a specific difference between ETOPS operations and -ER configured aircraft.

An -ER aircraft is not necessarily required for ETOPS operations. Also, an -ER aircraft may not necessarily be configured for ETOPS.

The suffix designator -ER only refers to additional fuel tanks which extend the flying range of the airframe. So, a 767-300ER has additional fuel capability over a standard -300. It may or may not be configured for ETOPS operations, which require specific navigation and communication equipment, additional safety equipment for the cabin, et cetera.

Thanks for the explanation. AA didn't have such a thing unless I fell asleep that afternoon during class

That's because all of AA's 767-300s were/are ERs. The 762 fleet was split ER and standard.

bzcat · Tue May 08, 2018 1:35 am

Relatively few non ER -300 out there because the cost and performance penalty of ER were minimal. If your mission didn't require the range, you simply take off with less fuel on board. But resale value of ER was better so not that many airlines ordered the non ER -300.

n471wn · Tue May 08, 2018 3:26 am

She has landed in Honolulu!

LAX772LR · Tue May 08, 2018 3:43 am

deebee278 wrote:
AA didn't have such a thing unless I fell asleep that afternoon during class

Actually they did, you just might not have been there before they retired their non-ER 767s.

BoeingGuy · Tue May 08, 2018 4:26 am

LAX772LR wrote:
deebee278 wrote:
AA didn't have such a thing unless I fell asleep that afternoon during class

Actually they did, you just might not have been there before they retired their non-ER 767s.

I know AA had non-ER -200s, but I thought all their -300s were ERs. Is that not correct?

Xtremespeed01 · Wed May 09, 2018 3:08 am

N594HA is back in service. Flew first revenue since being reactivated today as HA48 from HNL to OAK.

FlyingSicilian · Wed May 09, 2018 3:24 am

Is this the 'beat-up' 767 they usually fly me to PPG on? An upgrade would be nice, though they own the monopoly on the route so I get the business case behind using the older plane.

azjubilee · Wed May 09, 2018 2:57 pm

FlyingSicilian wrote:
Is this the 'beat-up' 767 they usually fly me to PPG on? An upgrade would be nice, though they own the monopoly on the route so I get the business case behind using the older plane.

No. The 767 was used for PPG because it replaced the DC10, which replaced the DC8 and L1011. Now that the 767s are retiring, the 330 has replaced them to PPG.

MO11 · Wed May 09, 2018 6:03 pm

FlyingSicilian wrote:
Is this the 'beat-up' 767 they usually fly me to PPG on? An upgrade would be nice, though they own the monopoly on the route so I get the business case behind using the older plane.

This one is not an ER so it's usually relegated to California-Hawaii. Last time I flew on an ex-DL airplane, it was actually one of the nicer ones, since the cabins were totally refurbished when they were acquired. The ex-LTU airplanes reminded you of the 1980s.

Laulau · Wed May 09, 2018 6:22 pm

Is this the 'beat-up' 767 they usually fly me to PPG on? An upgrade would be nice, though they own the monopoly on the route so I get the business case behind using the older plane.

First off there are multiple planes that are rotated on the Pago route (not beat up 767's). The route is currently being flown by A330's-not the beat up ones.... A/C are not assigned to the Pago route because of your percived conclusions.... they are rotated around the Hawaiian network through maintenance stations or in the case of 594HA-performance capabilities.

FlyingSicilian · Thu May 10, 2018 1:47 am

Laulau wrote:
Is this the 'beat-up' 767 they usually fly me to PPG on? An upgrade would be nice, though they own the monopoly on the route so I get the business case behind using the older plane.

First off there are multiple planes that are rotated on the Pago route (not beat up 767's). The route is currently being flown by A330's-not the beat up ones.... A/C are not assigned to the Pago route because of your percived conclusions.... they are rotated around the Hawaiian network through maintenance stations or in the case of 594HA-performance capabilities.

First off as a commercial pilot and someone with over 300,000 pax miles a year flown (I am UA Global Services and AA CK) I am more than aware of how aircraft rotations work.
Do not misinterupt my somewhat tongue-and-cheek shot at HA as a lack of knowledge. That said, the 767s that regularly flew the PPG were beat -up. I always fly first on the route and the hard product was mediocre at best and the ships oft mx hogs. I've only flown the 330 once in the last few months as my quarterly trips to PPG were cut back, but it is a step up. (A colleague still got a 76 on swap recently BTW.)

iflykpdx · Thu May 10, 2018 1:50 am

Welp, unsurprisingly HA46 cancelled. Guess it's still as much a mess of an aircraft as it was before!

Laulau · Thu May 10, 2018 3:02 am

FlyingSicilian wrote:
Laulau wrote:
Is this the 'beat-up' 767 they usually fly me to PPG on? An upgrade would be nice, though they own the monopoly on the route so I get the business case behind using the older plane.

First off there are multiple planes that are rotated on the Pago route (not beat up 767's). The route is currently being flown by A330's-not the beat up ones.... A/C are not assigned to the Pago route because of your percived conclusions.... they are rotated around the Hawaiian network through maintenance stations or in the case of 594HA-performance capabilities.

First off as a commercial pilot and someone with over 300,000 pax miles a year flown (I am UA Global Services and AA CK) I am more than aware of how aircraft rotations work.
Do not misinterupt my somewhat tongue-and-cheek shot at HA as a lack of knowledge. That said, the 767s that regularly flew the PPG were beat -up. I always fly first on the route and the hard product was mediocre at best and the ships oft mx hogs. I've only flown the 330 once in the last few months as my quarterly trips to PPG were cut back, but it is a step up. (A colleague still got a 76 on swap recently BTW.)

Hawaiian''s remaining 767's in service are a mixture of planes that range from 15-30+ yrs old. They are getting old and will either be retired or in the case of 3 of them sent to UA by the end of the year. Most of the A/C (older ones) have been having reliability issues with their advanced age. Due to the engine issues with the 321 Neo they have been kept on board a little longer-so u can probably expect some mechanicals with the routes that are still being served with the A/C.

MSPNWA · Thu May 10, 2018 3:44 am

FlyingSicilian wrote:
That said, the 767s that regularly flew the PPG were beat -up. I always fly first on the route and the hard product was mediocre at best and the ships oft mx hogs. I've only flown the 330 once in the last few months as my quarterly trips to PPG were cut back, but it is a step up. (A colleague still got a 76 on swap recently BTW.)

When I've followed 594's flights the past couple years, I don't remember it ever going to PPG. Usually it was relegated to the West Coast, with an occasional PHX run thrown in.

You might have been on N583HA a few times though. Haven't heard glowing reviews of that cabin.

WN732 · Thu May 10, 2018 6:02 am

MSPNWA wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
That said, the 767s that regularly flew the PPG were beat -up. I always fly first on the route and the hard product was mediocre at best and the ships oft mx hogs. I've only flown the 330 once in the last few months as my quarterly trips to PPG were cut back, but it is a step up. (A colleague still got a 76 on swap recently BTW.)

When I've followed 594's flights the past couple years, I don't remember it ever going to PPG. Usually it was relegated to the West Coast, with an occasional PHX run thrown in.

You might have been on N583HA a few times though. Haven't heard glowing reviews of that cabin.

Is she the only other one that doesn't have winglets? Right now she is flying into SMF.

Xtremespeed01 · Thu May 10, 2018 6:58 am

N583HA is also a winglet-less 767s. Its an ER tho. N594HA is also the only narrow forward cargo hold door also. HA A321neos deliveries will be ramping up soon. N205HA just did a couple test flights and should be taking delivery of it soon. Should be flying to from XFW > JFK > PAE for some in-flight installation before it starts its revenue flight. N209HA also just received its engines so it should be doing some ground taxiing and flights soon.

Laulau · Thu May 10, 2018 5:36 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
FlyingSicilian wrote:
That said, the 767s that regularly flew the PPG were beat -up. I always fly first on the route and the hard product was mediocre at best and the ships oft mx hogs. I've only flown the 330 once in the last few months as my quarterly trips to PPG were cut back, but it is a step up. (A colleague still got a 76 on swap recently BTW.)

When I've followed 594's flights the past couple years, I don't remember it ever going to PPG. Usually it was relegated to the West Coast, with an occasional PHX run thrown in.

You might have been on N583HA a few times though. Haven't heard glowing reviews of that cabin.

594 has never flown to PPG due to its limited performance capabilities.

JustWingIt · Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:07 pm

I have noticed that it (N594HA) has resumed flying for some reason and is headed to PHX tonight. Any idea what caused HA to put it back into service?

Polot · Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:15 pm

JustWingIt wrote:
I have noticed that it (N594HA) has resumed flying for some reason and is headed to PHX tonight. Any idea what caused HA to put it back into service?

Probably covering for A321neo delays during the busy summer season.

MO11 · Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:39 pm

And the 767s headed to UA.

Xtremespeed01 · Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:53 am

N588HA was ferried to MCI to get checked out and fitted for UA,with the next 2 over the next couple months. By years' end, HA will have 11 A321neos on property to which will take over majority of the 767 routes currently. Currently planned 7 deliveries between 2019-2020, unless HA decides to take the additional options they have on the order.

MO11 · Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:54 am

Xtremespeed01 wrote:
N588HA was ferried to MCI to get checked out and fitted for UA,with the next 2 over the next couple months. By years' end, HA will have 11 A321neos on property to which will take over majority of the 767 routes currently. Currently planned 7 deliveries between 2019-2020, unless HA decides to take the additional options they have on the order.

United took delivery on Tuesday and ferried it to GYR......

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