Dear Gang,

After all these years at Airliners.net, I haven't posted an ongoing Rochester thread. These seem to be helpful for many airports, so I'll start one here.

The big news for 2018 of course is the $79 million terminal renovation project. The canopy work is underway, as is work inside the terminal. A strange item is that Monroe County added $25 million to the cost of the project (!) before sending it to the County Legislature for approval last September. The County refused to explain this massive cost addition other than saying it was "security-related." The project is being funded by airport-related revenue and a $39.8 million grant from New York State. The County insisted that in addition to taxypayers not paying for the increase, no, fees aren't going up either. Apparently the $25 million will just drop out of the sky.

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/st ... 658316001/

In any event, let's hope that revenues do allow the County to pay for this suddenly rather expensive project without increasing fees and possibly hurting enplanements. The County Legislature approved the higher cost unanimously, so apparently neither party was concerned.

What do you all hear about service developments? It is pleasantly surprising to see United RON'ing not one but two mainline aircraft (one for ORD, one for EWR) right now, plus operating one to ORD at dinner rush hour. The last few winters, if I remember right, have had a window where United ran all Express flights during the winter. Last night there were two 739's RON'ing.

Jim

For convenience:

ROC airport renovation project website, including weekly updates:

http://www.rocrenovation.com/

ROC airport website:

https://www2.monroecounty.gov/airport-information.php

Wikipedia Article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_R ... al_Airport

My biggest questions about ROC right now are:

1) How did WN's Saturday only nonstops to RSW work in terms of load factor? Any hope that this will become a seasonal route next year? It seems like demand must be there, given the popularity of RSW for BUF. I've monitored the pricing on WN's website and it seems like it has managed to sell out the Wanna Get Away fares for some of the Saturdays they had this, which must be a good sign for both loads and yield.

In general, it is concerning that ROC must be one of WN's smallest stations. 3x to BWI, 1x to MCO and TPA. I always fear that ROC will get cut by WN, especially given new competition from Allegiant.

2) JB has been at 3x daily EMB-190s for a long time on a VERY crowded route space of ROC-JFK with what appears to be zero local marketing budget. When will they take a stab at ROC-BOS which is just dying for a lower cost carrier to steal that route from AA?

3) How have Allegiant's loads been on PGD/SFB?

4) Will mainline Delta return for the daily MSP flight this summer? I believe last summer it was run mainline.

Arch89U wrote:

My biggest questions about ROC right now are:

1) How did WN's Saturday only nonstops to RSW work in terms of load factor? Any hope that this will become a seasonal route next year? It seems like demand must be there, given the popularity of RSW for BUF. I've monitored the pricing on WN's website and it seems like it has managed to sell out the Wanna Get Away fares for some of the Saturdays they had this, which must be a good sign for both loads and yield.

In general, it is concerning that ROC must be one of WN's smallest stations. 3x to BWI, 1x to MCO and TPA. I always fear that ROC will get cut by WN, especially given new competition from Allegiant.

2) JB has been at 3x daily EMB-190s for a long time on a VERY crowded route space of ROC-JFK with what appears to be zero local marketing budget. When will they take a stab at ROC-BOS which is just dying for a lower cost carrier to steal that route from AA?

3) How have Allegiant's loads been on PGD/SFB?

4) Will mainline Delta return for the daily MSP flight this summer? I believe last summer it was run mainline.

Sure wish WN would set up shop in SYR. They have the location, infrastructure and catchment area (2.6 million, and I believe that doesn't count several hundred thousand more in SE Ontario who use SYR). I don't know whether it is a result of high operational costs or indifferent/ineffective private and public leadership that WN isn't in SYR or a combination of all of the above, but SYR could certainly support the presence of WN. I remember one time expressing frustration to a ticket agent in ALB, who told me "You wouldn't believe how many complaints we get every day that we don't fly to SYR." Since ROC is closer to SYR than ALB, I'm sure the same situation exists at ROC.

[quote][/q I remember one time expressing frustration to a ticket agent in ALB, who told me "You wouldn't believe how many complaints we get every day that we don't fly to SYR." Since ROC is closer to SYR than ALB, I'm sure the same situation exists at ROC.uote]

Hopefully if WN did serve SYR the enplanements in ROC would not decrease. I know that there is some passenger bleed to BUF from ROC because of the availability of more frequent daily flight options. ROC is a nice facility and it would be a shame if WN left. Hopefully the RSW flights will be popular since they do service a relatively large area.. I know at BUF WN at times runs 2x daily and Frontier is now doing an A321 with loads at almost 90% so it seems there is some demand in the area albeit seasonally.

Arch89U wrote:

My biggest questions about ROC right now are:

In general, it is concerning that ROC must be one of WN's smallest stations. 3x to BWI, 1x to MCO and TPA. I always fear that ROC will get cut by WN, especially given new competition from Allegiant.

I think Southwest is safe at ROC. They've been stable at the 5 daily flights for a while now and there are certainly WN stations with fewer than that. Some growth would be nice (MDW, FLL), but it's better than nothing. ROC seems to have survived the station cutting period of CAK/DAY/FNT around the time the 733's were parked.

Arch89U wrote:

4) Will mainline Delta return for the daily MSP flight this summer? I believe last summer it was run mainline.

Yes, mainline resumes May 1 with a A319 then switches to a MD-90 June 8.

Also, for what it's worth, Air Canada adds a fourth ROC-YYZ May 1. Regarding UA, the EWR mainline frequency started as seasonal around the holidays but is now in the schedule through the summer, along with the 3 mainline/2 UAX to ORD they did last summer.

Glad to hear Air Canada is doing so well. I'd noticed on FlightAware that it seemed like three dailies to YYZ, so it's a good sign that there will be a fourth. Not surprised--YYZ is a good option not only for connections to Canada, but Europe and Asia.

I'd guess it will be tough to get MDW back. All discussions here of MDW sound like the airport's airfield is nearing maxed out, and WN is probably using its capacity carefully. It still, seems to me that at least in the summer, 1x ROC-MDW with arrival at ROC late, RON, and out in early AM, like DL does with ROC-MSP, would work. ROC-MSP was seasonal before it was year-round, if I remember right.

Now that Bombardier can deliver CS-100's to Delta, I'm hoping that we might see them on ROC-LGA and ROC-JFK. The thread here on Delta's C Series deliveries said they will start by basing them at NYC (LGA, JFK) and LAX.

I'm surprised JetBlue can't do better than three EMB-190's daily to JFK, even with Delta's CR9's on ROC-JFK. Aren't JetBlue's costs enough lower that they have some advantage, or are B6's costs rising, too?

Jim

I'm curious as to why American ended the mainline flights to Charlotte again making them seasonal while maintaining year round mainline to both BUF and SYR. I understand BUF given its proximity to Ontario but ROC has a higher metro population than SYR.

XAMTO wrote:

I'm curious as to why American ended the mainline flights to Charlotte again making them seasonal while maintaining year round mainline to both BUF and SYR. I understand BUF given its proximity to Ontario but ROC has a higher metro population than SYR.

While the population of the ROC metropolitan area is larger than that of the SYR metro area, I believe there is a larger population in the SYR catchment area than that of ROC. SYR's catchment area extends from just south of the BGM area, into PA, up to the Canadian border, and arguably into SE Ontario, to include Kingston and Cornwall and, on occasion, Ottawa. I know I have been in Kingston in years past and seen ads for scheduled shuttle service to the airports at YYZ and SYR.

Roots1 wrote:

I think Southwest is safe at ROC. They've been stable at the 5 daily flights for a while now and there are certainly WN stations with fewer than that. Some growth would be nice (MDW, FLL), but it's better than nothing. ROC seems to have survived the station cutting period of CAK/DAY/FNT around the time the 733's were parked.

That's my assessment as well. We're seeing 738's on at least one daily flight regularly, too. I get the impression that Allegiant isn't having a big effect with four weekly flights. I would have expected Allegiant to have grown more by now, say 3x or 4x weekly on SFD, and for 2x weekly on FLL to have succeeded. At this point, it seems, the Rochester market seems to prefer full-service LCC's, with a small market for ULCC. Also, I wonder if ROC has a more Midwestern preference for the west coast of Florida than the east coast.

It seems strange to me that AA reduces ROC-CLT to CR9's in the winter. One would think that north-south demand would be solid during the winter months.

Jim

What was the 2017 passenger enplaned / deplaned count at ROC?

Haven't been able to find 2017 data. FAA only got official 2016 data out in October, and the chart I found shows enplanements not deplanements. Will post actual figures after I find them.

ROC--1,186,002 (so about 2,37 million)
SYR--988,496 (so about 1,98 million)
ALB--1,388,860 (so about 2.78 million)
BUF--2,313,724 (so about 4.63 million)

https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... ements.pdf

In regards to AA at ROC. I’m hoping mainline will return but the schedule loaded through May shows 4 CR9. Not sure if mainline will return. However AA actually has increased seats in ROC with an additional flight to CLT and upgrading two PHL flights to E175. In addition BOS will soon go back to 3 flights with Envoy taking over using the 44 seat embraer jet. AA must do better in the other upstate markets with more mainline and more two class regional jets.

United at ROC. Good to see more mainline at ROC including the one to EWR. Wouldn’t be surprised to see DEN added at some point with at least a E175.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

Glad to hear Air Canada is doing so well. I'd noticed on FlightAware that it seemed like three dailies to YYZ, so it's a good sign that there will be a fourth. Not surprised--YYZ is a good option not only for connections to Canada, but Europe and Asia.

I'd guess it will be tough to get MDW back. All discussions here of MDW sound like the airport's airfield is nearing maxed out, and WN is probably using its capacity carefully. It still, seems to me that at least in the summer, 1x ROC-MDW with arrival at ROC late, RON, and out in early AM, like DL does with ROC-MSP, would work. ROC-MSP was seasonal before it was year-round, if I remember right.

Now that Bombardier can deliver CS-100's to Delta, I'm hoping that we might see them on ROC-LGA and ROC-JFK. The thread here on Delta's C Series deliveries said they will start by basing them at NYC (LGA, JFK) and LAX.

I'm surprised JetBlue can't do better than three EMB-190's daily to JFK, even with Delta's CR9's on ROC-JFK. Aren't JetBlue's costs enough lower that they have some advantage, or are B6's costs rising, too?

Jim

Yes, B6 is definitely generating better margin on JFK-ROC than DL. Their fares are close and B6 costs on E90 should be a lot lower than DL costs on CRJ, but what's the point in adding flights on this route that might make this flight unprofitable?

tphuang wrote:

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

Glad to hear Air Canada is doing so well. I'd noticed on FlightAware that it seemed like three dailies to YYZ, so it's a good sign that there will be a fourth. Not surprised--YYZ is a good option not only for connections to Canada, but Europe and Asia.

I'd guess it will be tough to get MDW back. All discussions here of MDW sound like the airport's airfield is nearing maxed out, and WN is probably using its capacity carefully. It still, seems to me that at least in the summer, 1x ROC-MDW with arrival at ROC late, RON, and out in early AM, like DL does with ROC-MSP, would work. ROC-MSP was seasonal before it was year-round, if I remember right.

Now that Bombardier can deliver CS-100's to Delta, I'm hoping that we might see them on ROC-LGA and ROC-JFK. The thread here on Delta's C Series deliveries said they will start by basing them at NYC (LGA, JFK) and LAX.

I'm surprised JetBlue can't do better than three EMB-190's daily to JFK, even with Delta's CR9's on ROC-JFK. Aren't JetBlue's costs enough lower that they have some advantage, or are B6's costs rising, too?

Jim

Yes, B6 is definitely generating better margin on JFK-ROC than DL. Their fares are close and B6 costs on E90 should be a lot lower than DL costs on CRJ, but what's the point in adding flights on this route that might make this flight unprofitable?

Assuming similar LFs and local/flow traffic mix between the two.

I think turning this into an Upstate NY thread (BUF/ROC/ALB/SYR/ITH/ELM/ART/BGM) might be a good idea.

I agree and as far as SYR it too is undergoing renovations which have resulted in the entire center section being closed for renovation and this includes the roadway in front of the terminal. As a result the rental car counters are temporarily on the north side where some of the ticket counter space for United was (it's still there they just just moved down a bit) and the passenger pickup/dropoff has been moved to the roadways on either end. The airport's website (http://www.flysyracuse.com) has more info and SYR's webcams (http://airportwebcams.net/cams/syracuse-hancock.html) are a good way to watch the action and weather in that they are streaming and can be seen on youtube. As a far as air service goes I've noticed that AC is increasing it's YYZ flights from 3-4 within the next few months and that AA has been using an A321 on it's mourning flight from SYR to CLT. Of all the airports in Upstate NY that still have air service it seems BGM has fared the worst with it being down to 2-3 DL CRJ flights to DTW depending on the season.

A few things to put input in on as far as what’s been discussed:

WN is safe in ROC, that’s just something that all of the WN city chopping conspiracy theorists that are on here need to simply get over. Did the station hit a bump in the road with the ending of MDW service? Yes, without a doubt. However, those 3X BWI flights and Florida routes have been successful for almost 5 years now, and that’s an accomplishment. WN itself does receive some small icnentives on ticket counter lease pricing, and they do have a lower costing operation then the vast majority of WN stations, because the ramp on ROC is outsourced to Jetstream (one of very few stations for WN that they outsource ramp, carry over from when ROC was AirTran.) RSW flights have so far been successful in the interim and have huge potential of coming back on as a seasonal route, but wouldn’t plan on it for at least 6-9 months if not longer.

B6 will simply never be more than it is in ROC, and I don’t think anyone has an honest to god clue as to why. They will never leave, Schumer will have 10 cows with them if they ever tried to- and they do make a profit on their 3-4 daily JFK’s. Notice though that new destinations doesn’t necessarily mean increased capacity: B6 launched BOS From SYR in JAN as 1X daily, and according to the route report posted on here from a few weeks ago, SYR-JFK is going down to 2X, which is unheard of. It would be great to see them launch MCO or FLL, but it’s just not something that’s in the cards for them.

AC runs an interesting operation, and seeing them increase to 4X daily makes sense based on how their loads appear. They do send the CRJ here on a regular basis, but you can tell it’s not planned. There will be times where it’s here 3 days in a row, then you randomly won’t see one here for about a month.

If AA would bring back mainline on CLT (which is expected to happen the second week of June from what I’ve heard rumored, they could certainly put up a realistic fight for taking over DL as the largest carrier at the ROC in regards to flights per day and seats per day. (AA holds the crown with between 19-22 flights per day, DL with 16 per day.) BOS has continued to be an oddity in the ROC route map for AA, but from what’s always been said is it’s a very profitable route for them.

G4 simply exists. Load factors have gone up significantly for them in ROC according to the DOT load reports since they swapped out FLL with PGD (a lot of things are to blame for FLL failing- highlights being extremely poor marketing as well as the flight being frequently cancelled.) MYR would be a realistic add for them from ROC, however, one thing to note as to why it could not happen, is that ROC and SYR interestingly enough have no overlap in G4 destinations (ROC- SFB/PGD, SYR- MYR, FLL, PIE.) They could view it as too much capacity for the region to what can be described as only a seasonal tourist destination.

UA has definitely been seeing an operational improvement at ROC. The additional mainline flights appear to have been successful additions based on the fact that the 3X ORD summer schedule for mainline aircraft is coming back for the second year, as well as the fact that EWR mainline has so far been posted for 2 schedule extensions. As far as the months head go, summer capacity posted for right now is showing even more total growth from last year. (2017 average seats per day: 945, 2018: 1,071) and in a market like ROC, any growth is good growth.

DL continues to maintain the same schedule they’ve operated for about the last 2 years with minor changes here and there. MSP mainline as of now is on the schedule May-October and shows operated by a mix of mainline ranging from the MD90, 717, and 319. DTW as always will be back to mainline in the AM in the Fall, and ATL shows it’s healthy mix of the MD88/90. Only difference shown in the schedule is that SkyWest appears to be operating the E175 (S/S) on an LGA RON flight. Never seen Skywest on an NYC flight for DL, potentially picking up void left from the end of the EV contract.

The airport is an ugly mess of construction right now, but things appear to be moving along smoothly, which is a pleasant change in pace from construction projects that have occurred in years past. Overall, the state of the airport is the same as it was this time a year ago, if not slightly better off. Just my two cents (with some help from airline schedules and the DOT load factor reports that are published.)

In the case of ELM, it seems to be doing okay with some renovations that are doubling the size of the boarding area and UAEX coming back in the spring w/ 2x flights to EWR and DL still going strong on the DTW route plus Allegiant flying to 2 destinations. ART is hanging in there w/ 2x American Eagle flights to PHL no doubt helped by the proximity of Fort Drum. ITH has with the presence of Cornell, flights to DTW, PHL and EWR. While RME has no scheduled service it can have interesting maintenance visitors (I once saw a Dreamlifter there when i stopped by on a random visit) and there are a few wide bodies rotting away. I forgot to mention that SYR is one of the few airports in the US w/ B1900D's being operated by 2 companies w/ AC operating one to YYZ and National Grid using one as a corporate shuttle usually to and from BED (It's based out of a hanger on SYR's southern perimeter).

SYR and ROC I've always been intrigued by. It seems like their traffic number have been stagnant forever.

Does anyone know in what year did SYR and ROC's traffic peak in? I get the impression is was circa 1989 back when US ruled at SYR and ROC and had regional flights all over the place and connecting traffic to boot.

ROC's numbers peaked around 2005 or 2006, before the 2008 economic crash and fuel price spike. We had a high-flying year or two were AirTran was over 10 dailies, including a short-lived 2x daily to BOS. We hit 2.9 million one year, but never broke the 3 million ceiling. We've been stagnating at around 2.3-2.5 million since.

SYR peaked in the late 80's. There was even talk of a parallel 10-28 runway on the north side of the airport, for which I once saw a published diagram. However, airline consolidation and the end of the Empire / Piedmont / USAir hub ended that possibility. Hoping one of our SYR folks has some more detailed information. I'll see if I can find more.

Jim

As far as parallel runways goes talk of that at SYR goes back to when the current terminal was being planned in the late 1950's ( i know as I've seen the plans myself). It's one issue that I haven't heard a word about in the last 15 years and I don't expect to anytime soon. For a long time there was a USAIR club in the south concourse but that's now a small gift shop. Right now Delta & United are on the North concourse w/ Air Canada Express, Allegiant, Jetblue and American on the South concourse. Most of the GA activity and Air national guard activity takes place south of the main runway although a new FBO is due to open by the main airport entrance.

[photoid]If[/photoid]

teneriffe77 wrote:

As far as parallel runways goes talk of that at SYR goes back to when the current terminal was being planned in the late 1950's ( i know as I've seen the plans myself). It's one issue that I haven't heard a word about in the last 15 years and I don't expect to anytime soon. For a long time there was a USAIR club in the south concourse but that's now a small gift shop. Right now Delta & United are on the North concourse w/ Air Canada Express, Allegiant, Jetblue and American on the South concourse. Most of the GA activity and Air national guard activity takes place south of the main runway although a new FBO is due to open by the main airport entrance.

If I recall correctly, the parallel 10-28 idea may have involved a hoped-for Increase in cargo volume. Also, at the time, SYR was still one of the busiest stations in the US Airways system. Also, the ANG was still flying fighter planes out of SYR. I believe the demise of the idea was also in no small part due to NIMBY sentiment in Mattydale and N. Syracuse.

Even though the NY ANG isn't flying fighter jets out of SYR anymore they still have the Reaper drones which for the last few years have been flying out of SYR instead of being trucked to Fort Drum and those take up space in the air and ground like any other plane. As far as specific flights for SYR goes right now it's the following:
AA 1xBOS, 3xCLT 4xDCA, 5xORD, 5xPHL
AC 3-4x a day-YYZ
Allegiant PIE, FLL, MYR (seasonal) frequencies vary
B6 2xJFK, 1xMCO, 1xBOS and 1xFLL (seasonal)
DL 3xATL, 4xDTW, 3xJFK, 4xLGA and 1x MSP (seasonal)
UA 2-3x IAD, 4xORD, 4xEWR
Also as far as freight flights go both UPS and FEDEX use 752's but FEDEX does also run an ATR-72 down to EWR nightly

Here's a fun item for the ROC thread. This is the current state of the Rochester section of my 1:400 diecast airliner model collection, plus some larger plastic models. I just got the acrylic riser that sits on the top shelf, so those models are better displayed now.

Jim

JCK Rochester Section 2-18 by jimkruggel, on Flickr

Nice collection! Is there a Mohawk FH-227 in there somewhere?

Mike

just amazing that AA flew a DC 10 in there. But then there were also 9+ flights a day to SYR/BUF back then too...

One thing that I don't get is that in SYR, UA uses 2 jetways for 3 destinations while DL uses 4 for 5 destinations a one of those gates covers to positions. When 3 planes are on the ground UA uses a covered ramp for the 3rd position even when it's snowing & very cold so the passengers have to walk across the ramp in the bad weather. This is despite there being room to add a jetway at one of there parking positions (DL had a jetway when they used that gate in the past). The only other airline that doesn't use a jetway on a regular basis is AC Express and that's due to them using a Beech 1900 (speaking of which, does anybody know if those planes will ever get painted in any color scheme).

No, I don't have a Mohawk FH-227, just the BAC-111's. I'll get one of Mohawk's props sooner or later. With a few exceptions, my collection starts about 1970, as I was born not long before that, and my memory starts in the early 70's.

In the early 70's, AA appears to have been the largest carrier at ROC, in terms of seat capacity, but United and Allegheny don't appear to have been far behind. I have AA's July 1, 1973 timetable which shows four daily DC-10's leaving ROC. ROC-CLE-LAX, ROC-ORD-LAX, LAX-CLE-ROC-SYR, and ROC-LGA.

Jim

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

It seems strange to me that AA reduces ROC-CLT to CR9's in the winter. One would think that north-south demand would be solid during the winter months.

And on the flip side, BUF/SYR/ALB all have a daily A321 to CLT in the winter. Very strange, indeed.

I' don't have much of collection myself but I do have a COMAIR CRJ model that I purchased in a store in the for CVG concourse C 18 years ago and the significance is that I happened to be on the 1st scheduled flight of a modern RJ type into SYR, a flight from CVG in the late 1990's. Speaking of AA the acquisition of UsAirways brought them back to the original concourse , the south one where they had been till they moved to the north one in the 1980's.

Dominion301 wrote:

SYR and ROC I've always been intrigued by. It seems like their traffic number have been stagnant forever.

Does anyone know in what year did SYR and ROC's traffic peak in? I get the impression is was circa 1989 back when US ruled at SYR and ROC and had regional flights all over the place and connecting traffic to boot.

I think this is a common problem for all airports in NY state. Buffalo / BNIA has only recently been recovering from the airline mergers from a few years ago with the addition of Frontier, Jet blue expanding to LA, Southwest in Florida, Cancun / Punta Cana flights, OneJet albany flights and so on. (It took Jet Blue 2-3 years to come around to the BUF - LA flight.)

The main issue is the legacy carriers. As you can see, all the carriers expanding routes are low cost carriers. I cant remember any full time route expansion by any big airline off the top of my head. I am sure ROC / SYR you could most likely say the same thing about. SYR is almost begging United to provide a direct flight to Denver and i doubt it happens.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

This is the current state of the Rochester section of my 1:400 diecast airliner model collection, plus some larger plastic models.

What a great collection. I've always admired the USAir "silver and three-shades of red" scheme, and the 727-200 was their flagship for a while (until the 757-767 came on board), so I would give the prize to the 722 in the lower left, with the Rich International L1011 a very close 2nd.

When did United fly the Bae 146 into ROC? I'm guessing that was a IAD flight?

B595 wrote:

What a great collection. I've always admired the USAir "silver and three-shades of red" scheme, and the 727-200 was their flagship for a while (until the 757-767 came on board), so I would give the prize to the 722 in the lower left, with the Rich International L1011 a very close 2nd.
When did United fly the Bae 146 into ROC? I'm guessing that was a IAD flight?

Thank you very much! It's taken years to build the collection. I was so excited to start seeing USAir 727's in Rochester in the early 80's. I saw the Rich International L-1011 in the winter of 1992, I think it was, parked in a snowstorm at I think gate A9. Back then you could go out past security for a close look, and I was told it was a charter to Las Vegas.

I'm not sure where UA flew the BAE-146's. I would see them at ROC in the late 90's, maybe early 2000's. The OAG's I checked at http://www.departedflights.com didn't show them. At that time, IAD was mostly Jetstream 31/41. I think they went to ORD, but am not sure.

Jim

teneriffe77 wrote:

One thing that I don't get is that in SYR, UA uses 2 jetways for 3 destinations while DL uses 4 for 5 destinations a one of those gates covers to positions. When 3 planes are on the ground UA uses a covered ramp for the 3rd position even when it's snowing & very cold so the passengers have to walk across the ramp in the bad weather. This is despite there being room to add a jetway at one of there parking positions (DL had a jetway when they used that gate in the past). The only other airline that doesn't use a jetway on a regular basis is AC Express and that's due to them using a Beech 1900 (speaking of which, does anybody know if those planes will ever get painted in any color scheme).

Gate 21 at SYR were that United flight parks and pax have to walk the ramp could definitely make a jetway work. Gate 24A, the corner pad that Delta uses, could possibly squeeze a jetway in there as well. If they shift the pads just right on the north concourse you could maybe get away with getting the old Gate 27 to be functional with a jetway again too. They have so many gates for so few flights because they RON for the morning departures for pax to make connections. The airport is dead middle of the day and then they all flood back in during the evening.

[photoid][/photoid]

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

SYR and ROC I've always been intrigued by. It seems like their traffic number have been stagnant forever.

Does anyone know in what year did SYR and ROC's traffic peak in? I get the impression is was circa 1989 back when US ruled at SYR and ROC and had regional flights all over the place and connecting traffic to boot.

I think this is a common problem for all airports in NY state. Buffalo / BNIA has only recently been recovering from the airline mergers from a few years ago with the addition of Frontier, Jet blue expanding to LA, Southwest in Florida, Cancun / Punta Cana flights, OneJet albany flights and so on. (It took Jet Blue 2-3 years to come around to the BUF - LA flight.)

The main issue is the legacy carriers. As you can see, all the carriers expanding routes are low cost carriers. I cant remember any full time route expansion by any big airline off the top of my head. I am sure ROC / SYR you could most likely say the same thing about. SYR is almost begging United to provide a direct flight to Denver and i doubt it happens.

If the SYR airport authority is to be believed, there is considerable demand for n/s service to DEN, and United is definitely
interested and supportive. The authority at DEN is supportive as well. Defense contractors in CNY have been clamoring for the service. Frankly, I wish the Authority would get off their duffs and lure WN to SYR. They also have a large operation in DEN.

TucsonDave wrote:

[photoid][/photoid]

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

SYR and ROC I've always been intrigued by. It seems like their traffic number have been stagnant forever.

Does anyone know in what year did SYR and ROC's traffic peak in? I get the impression is was circa 1989 back when US ruled at SYR and ROC and had regional flights all over the place and connecting traffic to boot.

I think this is a common problem for all airports in NY state. Buffalo / BNIA has only recently been recovering from the airline mergers from a few years ago with the addition of Frontier, Jet blue expanding to LA, Southwest in Florida, Cancun / Punta Cana flights, OneJet albany flights and so on. (It took Jet Blue 2-3 years to come around to the BUF - LA flight.)

The main issue is the legacy carriers. As you can see, all the carriers expanding routes are low cost carriers. I cant remember any full time route expansion by any big airline off the top of my head. I am sure ROC / SYR you could most likely say the same thing about. SYR is almost begging United to provide a direct flight to Denver and i doubt it happens.

If the SYR airport authority is to be believed, there is considerable demand for n/s service to DEN, and United is definitely
interested and supportive. The authority at DEN is supportive as well. Defense contractors in CNY have been clamoring for the service. Frankly, I wish the Authority would get off their duffs and lure WN to SYR. They also have a large operation in DEN.

I wouldn't expect any new service at SYR until the terminal project is done. There may be an annoucement of new service but it won't actually take flight till October or later after they do the ribbon cutting on the new lipstick for the terminal.

There's no room to put an extra jetway in SYR by gate 24 and that one handles 2 planes over night as it is. The best place for another jetway is 22 where there used to be one for DL and then UA could moved it's 3 plane to the existing 20 jetway which was there's for a long time anyway thus leaving UA in the western part and DL in the eastern part of that concourse. One good thing about the airport itself is there's many places to see the action without going through security like the observation/cell phone waiting lot next to the terminal that allows you to see the runways GA, military etc.

TucsonDave wrote:

[photoid][/photoid]

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

SYR and ROC I've always been intrigued by. It seems like their traffic number have been stagnant forever.

Does anyone know in what year did SYR and ROC's traffic peak in? I get the impression is was circa 1989 back when US ruled at SYR and ROC and had regional flights all over the place and connecting traffic to boot.

I think this is a common problem for all airports in NY state. Buffalo / BNIA has only recently been recovering from the airline mergers from a few years ago with the addition of Frontier, Jet blue expanding to LA, Southwest in Florida, Cancun / Punta Cana flights, OneJet albany flights and so on. (It took Jet Blue 2-3 years to come around to the BUF - LA flight.)

The main issue is the legacy carriers. As you can see, all the carriers expanding routes are low cost carriers. I cant remember any full time route expansion by any big airline off the top of my head. I am sure ROC / SYR you could most likely say the same thing about. SYR is almost begging United to provide a direct flight to Denver and i doubt it happens.

If the SYR airport authority is to be believed, there is considerable demand for n/s service to DEN, and United is definitely
interested and supportive. The authority at DEN is supportive as well. Defense contractors in CNY have been clamoring for the service. Frankly, I wish the Authority would get off their duffs and lure WN to SYR. They also have a large operation in DEN.

WN has tried Buffalo and Albany direct flights to Denver.

Buffalo was just seasonal and they had some awful flight times. It was 2 summers ago. I dont know about Albany, I just know they tried it. I am going to assume both were not successful.

And if United / SYR want to get it done .... it would be done by now. I think that Denver is going over some major expansion. Maybe after that?

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

TucsonDave wrote:

[photoid][/photoid]

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

I think this is a common problem for all airports in NY state. Buffalo / BNIA has only recently been recovering from the airline mergers from a few years ago with the addition of Frontier, Jet blue expanding to LA, Southwest in Florida, Cancun / Punta Cana flights, OneJet albany flights and so on. (It took Jet Blue 2-3 years to come around to the BUF - LA flight.)

The main issue is the legacy carriers. As you can see, all the carriers expanding routes are low cost carriers. I cant remember any full time route expansion by any big airline off the top of my head. I am sure ROC / SYR you could most likely say the same thing about. SYR is almost begging United to provide a direct flight to Denver and i doubt it happens.

If the SYR airport authority is to be believed, there is considerable demand for n/s service to DEN, and United is definitely
interested and supportive. The authority at DEN is supportive as well. Defense contractors in CNY have been clamoring for the service. Frankly, I wish the Authority would get off their duffs and lure WN to SYR. They also have a large operation in DEN.

WN has tried Buffalo and Albany direct flights to Denver.

Buffalo was just seasonal and they had some awful flight times. It was 2 summers ago. I dont know about Albany, I just know they tried it. I am going to assume both were not successful.

And if United / SYR want to get it done .... it would be done by now. I think that Denver is going over some major expansion. Maybe after that?

Well, they've applied for a grant to support DEN service on UA: http://www.syracuse.com/business-news/i ... enver.html

Looks like AA released it’s June schedule and no mainline in ROC. If anything it’s a worse schedule. PHL loses its two E175 flights in exchange for an extra ERJ. CLT gets the same number of seats but gets 3 E175 in exchange for 3 CR9. DCA is only 3 flights but one is on a E175. ORD and BOS stay the same.

Starting in July one of the daily BUF-PHL is mainline on an ERJ-190.

DCA-ROCGuy....as a WNY native: that is an AWESOME collection. Would you mind copying and pasting the full text of what lies below the models?

I noticed that SYR loses a DCA frequency but gains a CLT CR7 one to make it 4x with the 1st and last flights staying mainline.

maximairways wrote:

Starting in July one of the daily BUF-PHL is mainline on an ERJ-190.

Still, legacy carriers dont really expand.

Someone mentioned boston / LGA. Jetblue already flies the Boston route. I still think BNIA still has room for route expansion and growth.

Changing to mainline carriers though, might be a good sign?

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

maximairways wrote:

Starting in July one of the daily BUF-PHL is mainline on an ERJ-190.

Still, legacy carriers dont really expand.

Someone mentioned boston / LGA. Jetblue already flies the Boston route. I still think BNIA still has room for route expansion and growth.

Changing to mainline carriers though, might be a good sign?

Wouldn’t really call a route that has been operated by an E190 on and off for the last decade much of a development. It’s nice to see, but like stated not much growth.

At this point I’ll be darned if it can be predicted what will happen with ROC-CLT. The fact that they’re changing equipment like that is interesting, since the 175 isn’t big in CLT. Also, it’s only March, still something like 60 days for this to be adjusted. Could see PHL getting at least one 175 back.

I don't remember Rich Intl or Metrojet flying here . It baffles me how we don't have a FLL flight,though.

AA's posted schedule for ROC, as you all describe it, is baffling. If anything, I would expect to see *at least* A319's to CLT in the summer. Maybe it will be adjusted. DCA-ROC has been 4 dailies at times when I've been booking flights home. 2x E45 and 1x E-175, which show on looking at 6/14 and 6/19, is quite thin in the summer. Rochester's economy has been decent the past couple of years, too.

The Rich International L-1011 I saw at gate A9 in early 1992 was a charter to LAS.

MetroJet flew two dailies to MCO around 2000. They and Delta Express overdid it--both flew 2x ROC-MCO--and both left. I, too find it difficult to believe ROC can't support FLL. I wonder if ROC is more Midwestern in its Florida preferences (west coast of FL rather than east coast) than its NYS location would suggest.

I'm about to edit the text of my ROC model display, and I'll post the complete edited text once it's done. I display my 1:400 airliner models in groups with display text like a museum. The other groups are by decade, starting with the 70's (shortly after I was born). Sort of my own home museum.

Jim

Jim,I didn't get into spotting here til 2000. I never remember Metrojet ,here . As far as FLL,it baffles me,too. BUF has upwards of 6 flights a day to FLL . Plus F9 to MIA . Eagle was doing seasonal to MIA,also.

Speaking of AA Barbie jets...I'll be at ROC later today to fly back to DC. I'll try to get some pictures of the construction. They've installed some framework above the apron just outside the atrium window next to the west rotunda and A2.

Southern Ontario really skews things at BUF. Canadians seem to love Florida, and BUF handles almost two million more people yearly than ROC, so a lot of FLL probably makes sense. I do wish ROC could get a B6 LAX E190 nonstop, even four or five days a week.

Jim