WN at a company spirit rally in LAS has today announced their intention to finally open the long rumored LAX crew base in Q4 2018. Thoughts on what this means for WN and their future and growth at LAX? Announcement literally just came less than 15 minutes ago so no official release yet, but feel free to post a link when it becomes available.

Goes right in line with their Hawaii timeline.

Are all the area airports going to be co-bases?

I’m surprised to hear they don’t have one already.

SFOtoORD wrote:

I’m surprised to hear they don’t have one already.

I'm also surprised... Huh...I wonder why the change?

Lightsaber

Overdue move. Also LAX base management has stated they expect further schedule expansion now that terminal remodel project wrapping up and most gates are -800 capable.

WN732 wrote:

Goes right in line with their Hawaii timeline.

Why would one thing have to do with another? They already have an OAK base, and a PHX base, both which would be fully capable of staffing Hawaii flying easily enough. At that, any of their bases could easily staff Hawaii flying. An LAX base isn't a prerequisite for Hawaii flying.

ASFlyer wrote:

WN732 wrote:

Goes right in line with their Hawaii timeline.

Why would one thing have to do with another? They already have an OAK base, and a PHX base, both which would be fully capable of staffing Hawaii flying easily enough. At that, any of their bases could easily staff Hawaii flying. An LAX base isn't a prerequisite for Hawaii flying.

It isn't a prerequisite for Hawaii flying, and no one said it was.... Obviously the timing is more than just a coincidence though, it is opening in 4th quarter of this year (right before WN starts flying to HI) and there will be a group of ETOPS pilots based there as well .....

Just curious, when a carrier opens a new base like this, do they offer incentives such as relocation packages, to entice employees to take it? I'm guessing WN probably has some crew members who already live in the area that will jump on this.

They came to their senses after their LAX hotel budget hit probably $5mil a year.

hiflyeras wrote:

They came to their senses after their LAX hotel budget hit probably $5mil a year.

As much as the Hawaii thing makes sense, and is definitely part of it, this is also likely VERY likely. Hotel rates are at all time highs, and hoteliers aren't about to lower rates "just because its XXX airline"

Everybody has margins to make. Everybody.

ASFlyer wrote:

WN732 wrote:

Goes right in line with their Hawaii timeline.

Why would one thing have to do with another? They already have an OAK base, and a PHX base, both which would be fully capable of staffing Hawaii flying easily enough. At that, any of their bases could easily staff Hawaii flying. An LAX base isn't a prerequisite for Hawaii flying.

I didn't say it was a prerequisite. It will be around the time that Hawaii starts. We know most flights will originate in CA. It makes sense to have crews based in Norcal and Socal for these flights. Especially since those crews will be tied up all day flying to / from Hawaii. Then they also have a large operation there already on top of that.

OKCDCA wrote:

Just curious, when a carrier opens a new base like this, do they offer incentives such as relocation packages, to entice employees to take it? I'm guessing WN probably has some crew members who already live in the area that will jump on this.

LOL there will be no problem getting people to go to LAX base. So many people commute and now won't have to.

ASFlyer wrote:

WN732 wrote:

Goes right in line with their Hawaii timeline.

Why would one thing have to do with another? They already have an OAK base, and a PHX base, both which would be fully capable of staffing Hawaii flying easily enough. At that, any of their bases could easily staff Hawaii flying. An LAX base isn't a prerequisite for Hawaii flying.

LAX is one of the most expensive crew accommodations for overnight logging in the WN system. LAX Hotel cost are expected to go up another 320% once the LA Rams and LA Charges football stadium opens up. LAX hotels don't need or want the airline crew business as it is nowadays. Now given the football mix use stadium 20min away the hotels will have another high dollar feed edging out airline crew accommodations.
WN no longer could avoid having a crew base.
The cost of a base is pennies on the dollar vs hotel crew accommodations in LAX.
Lastly a lot of crew members fly from LA Basin to OAK,DEN,LAS and PHX to go to work this will make a lot more people happy.
Win win for WN and it's crew members.

Flyguy

ASFlyer wrote:

WN732 wrote:

Goes right in line with their Hawaii timeline.

Why would one thing have to do with another? They already have an OAK base, and a PHX base, both which would be fully capable of staffing Hawaii flying easily enough. At that, any of their bases could easily staff Hawaii flying. An LAX base isn't a prerequisite for Hawaii flying.

You're right but it's damn desirable as hat's where they might do the ETOPS Checks before departing the over water portion of the flight which is when the ETOPS rules kick in. You can't even verify an ETOPS verifiable repair untin you're in the ETOPS enviorment

Too bad no news on the proposed T0 yet. I want to see WN gun for exclusive control of that terminal.

ericm2031 wrote:

Too bad no news on the proposed T0 yet. I want to see WN gun for exclusive control of that terminal.

WN would seem to have a lot of competition for a proposed T-Zero at LAX, even when the rehab of T1 is complete. Even so, LAX isn't exactly the easiest airport to get to, from and around; even ATL is an easier airport to deal with compared to LAX, and I'm speaking from (limited) personal experience.

wnflyguy wrote:

ASFlyer wrote:

WN732 wrote:

Goes right in line with their Hawaii timeline.

Why would one thing have to do with another? They already have an OAK base, and a PHX base, both which would be fully capable of staffing Hawaii flying easily enough. At that, any of their bases could easily staff Hawaii flying. An LAX base isn't a prerequisite for Hawaii flying.

LAX is one of the most expensive crew accommodations for overnight logging in the WN system. LAX Hotel cost are expected to go up another 320% once the LA Rams and LA Charges football stadium opens up. LAX hotels don't need or want the airline crew business as it is nowadays. Now given the football mix use stadium 20min away the hotels will have another high dollar feed edging out airline crew accommodations.
WN no longer could avoid having a crew base.
The cost of a base is pennies on the dollar vs hotel crew accommodations in LAX.
Lastly a lot of crew members fly from LA Basin to OAK,DEN,LAS and PHX to go to work this will make a lot more people happy.
Win win for WN and it's crew members.

Flyguy

This, to me, is the most logical answer. It’s all about costs and the ability to find decent crew accommodations. Hawaii flying could be supported by any base they already have. Someone mentioned stationing ETOPS pilots at LAX. I certainly can’t speak for how southwest intends on operating, but Alaska pilots are all capable of operating ETOPS flights, not just those at a particular base. It didn’t start that way, but they quickly all became qualified. It would make sense for southwest to do the same, given their route structure and knowing how they appreciate the cost effectiveness of a consistency. It would be more costly to have a particular cadre of pilots that operate only a particular mission.

ASFlyer wrote:

wnflyguy wrote:

ASFlyer wrote:

Why would one thing have to do with another? They already have an OAK base, and a PHX base, both which would be fully capable of staffing Hawaii flying easily enough. At that, any of their bases could easily staff Hawaii flying. An LAX base isn't a prerequisite for Hawaii flying.

LAX is one of the most expensive crew accommodations for overnight logging in the WN system. LAX Hotel cost are expected to go up another 320% once the LA Rams and LA Charges football stadium opens up. LAX hotels don't need or want the airline crew business as it is nowadays. Now given the football mix use stadium 20min away the hotels will have another high dollar feed edging out airline crew accommodations.
WN no longer could avoid having a crew base.
The cost of a base is pennies on the dollar vs hotel crew accommodations in LAX.
Lastly a lot of crew members fly from LA Basin to OAK,DEN,LAS and PHX to go to work this will make a lot more people happy.
Win win for WN and it's crew members.

Flyguy

This, to me, is the most logical answer. It’s all about costs and the ability to find decent crew accommodations. Hawaii flying could be supported by any base they already have. Someone mentioned stationing ETOPS pilots at LAX. I certainly can’t speak for how southwest intends on operating, but Alaska pilots are all capable of operating ETOPS flights, not just those at a particular base. It didn’t start that way, but they quickly all became qualified. It would make sense for southwest to do the same, given their route structure and knowing how they appreciate the cost effectiveness of a consistency. It would be more costly to have a particular cadre of pilots that operate only a particular mission.

From my understanding All WN pilots will go thru ETOPS training.
WN likes to have its pilots available to fly anywhere anytime.

Flyguy

ASFlyer wrote:

This, to me, is the most logical answer. It’s all about costs and the ability to find decent crew accommodations. Hawaii flying could be supported by any base they already have. Someone mentioned stationing ETOPS pilots at LAX. I certainly can’t speak for how southwest intends on operating, but Alaska pilots are all capable of operating ETOPS flights, not just those at a particular base. It didn’t start that way, but they quickly all became qualified. It would make sense for southwest to do the same, given their route structure and knowing how they appreciate the cost effectiveness of a consistency. It would be more costly to have a particular cadre of pilots that operate only a particular mission.

Sure, HI flying could be supported by any other base, but you could make that same argument about whether WN should open up any other base. There are obviously other benefits, but a lot of WN's HI flights will go through LAX so it is logical for WN to have a base there especially one with a high concentration of ETOPS pilots.

I'm sure WN is planning on training more ETOPS pilots, but WN has 5x the pilots the AS has, so it will take a while.

Of course it has to do with Hawaii flying.

Flight out, flight back.

Pilots aren’t flying PHX-LAX-HNL in one day.

Hawaii is a special flight with special padding for days with stronger winds, bad weather etc.

Working it into a larger pairing is also a pain.

Hawaii trips are 3 day trips. Add on layovers in LAX on either end and you have 5 day trips at minimum.

It is cleaner and easier for all involved (pilots and company) if LAX is a base for launching these flights.

ctrabs0114 wrote:

ericm2031 wrote:

Too bad no news on the proposed T0 yet. I want to see WN gun for exclusive control of that terminal.

WN would seem to have a lot of competition for a proposed T-Zero at LAX, even when the rehab of T1 is complete. Even so, LAX isn't exactly the easiest airport to get to, from and around; even ATL is an easier airport to deal with compared to LAX, and I'm speaking from (limited) personal experience.

The top 15 WN destinations in the contiguous U.S. from LAX that WN does not currently serve nonstop from LAX are SEA, EWR, BOS, MCO, IAD, MSP, PHL, DTW, FLL, DCA, CLE, RDU, CVG, CMH, and BDL.

WN still has opportunities to add nonstop service to additional destinations in the contiguous U.S. from LAX.

wnflyguy wrote:

ASFlyer wrote:

WN732 wrote:

Goes right in line with their Hawaii timeline.

Why would one thing have to do with another? They already have an OAK base, and a PHX base, both which would be fully capable of staffing Hawaii flying easily enough. At that, any of their bases could easily staff Hawaii flying. An LAX base isn't a prerequisite for Hawaii flying.

LAX is one of the most expensive crew accommodations for overnight logging in the WN system. LAX Hotel cost are expected to go up another 320% once the LA Rams and LA Charges football stadium opens up. LAX hotels don't need or want the airline crew business as it is nowadays. Now given the football mix use stadium 20min away the hotels will have another high dollar feed edging out airline crew accommodations.
WN no longer could avoid having a crew base.
The cost of a base is pennies on the dollar vs hotel crew accommodations in LAX.
Lastly a lot of crew members fly from LA Basin to OAK,DEN,LAS and PHX to go to work this will make a lot more people happy.
Win win for WN and it's crew members.

Flyguy

This makes complete sense and begs the question (for me anyway) -- What took so long? What surprises me most about this news is that LAX wasn't already a crew base.

Flyguy[/quote]

This, to me, is the most logical answer. It’s all about costs and the ability to find decent crew accommodations. Hawaii flying could be supported by any base they already have. Someone mentioned stationing ETOPS pilots at LAX. I certainly can’t speak for how southwest intends on operating, but Alaska pilots are all capable of operating ETOPS flights, not just those at a particular base. It didn’t start that way, but they quickly all became qualified. It would make sense for southwest to do the same, given their route structure and knowing how they appreciate the cost effectiveness of a consistency. It would be more costly to have a particular cadre of pilots that operate only a particular mission.[/quote]

From my understanding All WN pilots will go thru ETOPS training.
WN likes to have its pilots available to fly anywhere anytime.

Flyguy[/quote]

This is incorrect. Only a very small number of pilots will be going thru ETOPS training. Maybe 300 but that number is nothing more than a guess. The ETOPS qualified pilots will not only do ETOPS trips but also normal non-ETOPS trips. I think the training is maybe 3 days but I don’t remember exactly and they are still working out the plan. Wouldn’t surprise me if we end up with an ETOPS subset in OAK and even PHX and LAS. But it doesn’t really make sense to train 9200 pilots when we might have 10 flights out of 4000 daily that requires and ETOPS qualified crew.

Breaking news...there can be more than 1 reason for opening a crew base.

Does a crew base include the pilots or do they have separate "bases?"

Does the airline grant a cost-of-living supplement for expensive cities like LA? The cost of hotels might be high, but so is the cost of buying or leasing a residence.

JAAlbert wrote:

Does a crew base include the pilots or do they have separate "bases?"

Does the airline grant a cost-of-living supplement for expensive cities like LA? The cost of hotels might be high, but so is the cost of buying or leasing a residence.

There is no cost of living supplement or any incentive to go to any new bases. It will be bid on and awarded by seniority. We have many pilots that live in So Cal already. The base is only opening with 100 pilots this fall (50 CA and 50 FO) but I’m sure will slowly grow. This is typical with most base openings.

jplatts wrote:

The top 15 WN destinations in the contiguous U.S. from LAX that WN does not currently serve nonstop from LAX are SEA, EWR, BOS, MCO, IAD, MSP, PHL, DTW, FLL, DCA, CLE, RDU, CVG, CMH, and BDL.

WN still has opportunities to add nonstop service to additional destinations in the contiguous U.S. from LAX.

It does, but every destination you list is more than WN's average stage length, most more than 2x. WN is still predominantly a short-haul airline.

737max8 wrote:

Breaking news...there can be more than 1 reason for opening a crew base.

Yes.

There's an indirect cost for WN, too: further fragmenting pilot scheduling across bases.

But at some point (and Hawaii service is one of several points), it becomes time even for a carrier that shies from complexity.

Midwestindy wrote:

ASFlyer wrote:

This, to me, is the most logical answer. It’s all about costs and the ability to find decent crew accommodations. Hawaii flying could be supported by any base they already have. Someone mentioned stationing ETOPS pilots at LAX. I certainly can’t speak for how southwest intends on operating, but Alaska pilots are all capable of operating ETOPS flights, not just those at a particular base. It didn’t start that way, but they quickly all became qualified. It would make sense for southwest to do the same, given their route structure and knowing how they appreciate the cost effectiveness of a consistency. It would be more costly to have a particular cadre of pilots that operate only a particular mission.

Sure, HI flying could be supported by any other base, but you could make that same argument about whether WN should open up any other base. There are obviously other benefits, but a lot of WN's HI flights will go through LAX so it is logical for WN to have a base there especially one with a high concentration of ETOPS pilots.

I'm sure WN is planning on training more ETOPS pilots, but WN has 5x the pilots the AS has, so it will take a while.

WN also has 5x the ability to train pilots as AS has because they're 5x larger.

I'm not trying just to be contrary, but how does anyone know that any of their Hawaii flying will transit LAX? Especially when they have large connection operations at places nearby like PHX, LAS and OAK. To me, that makes no sense at all - LAX is probably THE single most saturated market in terms of Hawaii flying. DL, UA, AA, AS, HA all fly multiple nonstop from LAX to Hawaii - most to more than just one island. If I were a betting man, I'd hedge my bets that WN, should they finally enter the HI market, will do it from their OAK hub and secondary cities - SAN, SJC, SMF, ONT, LGB perhaps. I'd be surprised to see them jump into the LAX market - but it all remains to be seen since they haven't announced which routes the intend on flying as yet.

SWApilotfarmer wrote:

Flyguy

This, to me, is the most logical answer. It’s all about costs and the ability to find decent crew accommodations. Hawaii flying could be supported by any base they already have. Someone mentioned stationing ETOPS pilots at LAX. I certainly can’t speak for how southwest intends on operating, but Alaska pilots are all capable of operating ETOPS flights, not just those at a particular base. It didn’t start that way, but they quickly all became qualified. It would make sense for southwest to do the same, given their route structure and knowing how they appreciate the cost effectiveness of a consistency. It would be more costly to have a particular cadre of pilots that operate only a particular mission.[/quote]

From my understanding All WN pilots will go thru ETOPS training.
WN likes to have its pilots available to fly anywhere anytime.

Flyguy[/quote]

This is incorrect. Only a very small number of pilots will be going thru ETOPS training. Maybe 300 but that number is nothing more than a guess. The ETOPS qualified pilots will not only do ETOPS trips but also normal non-ETOPS trips. I think the training is maybe 3 days but I don’t remember exactly and they are still working out the plan. Wouldn’t surprise me if we end up with an ETOPS subset in OAK and even PHX and LAS. But it doesn’t really make sense to train 9200 pilots when we might have 10 flights out of 4000 daily that requires and ETOPS qualified crew.[/quote]


This makes sense too - if WN is only going to have, maybe, 10 flights a day to the islands from several cities, there really isn't a need to train all pilots. It does represent a greater expense to have a subset of pilots, but it may also make the most sense in WN's case. maintaining ETOPS bases in OAK, PHX and LAS would make the most sense in this case - especially as these well could be the cities from which HI flying could likely originate.

Some WN flight attendants told me they have known about this for some time as the remodel of T1 included Inflight Service Supervisors offices.

SFOtoORD wrote:

I’m surprised to hear they don’t have one already.

Same here, all this time I thought they had one in LAX.

Yeah, I think the big question I have is what other stations are part of this co-base? Just BUR? BUR and LGB? BUR+LGB+SNA? None of the above?

wnflyguy wrote:

ASFlyer wrote:

wnflyguy wrote:

LAX is one of the most expensive crew accommodations for overnight logging in the WN system. LAX Hotel cost are expected to go up another 320% once the LA Rams and LA Charges football stadium opens up. LAX hotels don't need or want the airline crew business as it is nowadays. Now given the football mix use stadium 20min away the hotels will have another high dollar feed edging out airline crew accommodations.
WN no longer could avoid having a crew base.
The cost of a base is pennies on the dollar vs hotel crew accommodations in LAX.
Lastly a lot of crew members fly from LA Basin to OAK,DEN,LAS and PHX to go to work this will make a lot more people happy.
Win win for WN and it's crew members.

Flyguy

This, to me, is the most logical answer. It’s all about costs and the ability to find decent crew accommodations. Hawaii flying could be supported by any base they already have. Someone mentioned stationing ETOPS pilots at LAX. I certainly can’t speak for how southwest intends on operating, but Alaska pilots are all capable of operating ETOPS flights, not just those at a particular base. It didn’t start that way, but they quickly all became qualified. It would make sense for southwest to do the same, given their route structure and knowing how they appreciate the cost effectiveness of a consistency. It would be more costly to have a particular cadre of pilots that operate only a particular mission.

From my understanding All WN pilots will go thru ETOPS training.
WN likes to have its pilots available to fly anywhere anytime.

Flyguy

Have to see how the schedules are built , ATA did Hawaii flying but as a turn from several cities. Put an extra pilot on board , not sure if swa would do this

drdisque wrote:

Yeah, I think the big question I have is what other stations are part of this co-base? Just BUR? BUR and LGB? BUR+LGB+SNA? None of the above?

Probably none at LAX as there is no current co basing at OAK or BWI. However, it could be done with contractual language at some point. Interestedly. DCA has upwards of nine RON aircraft with the second biggest WN crew base only 38 miles away. I know many pilots that live within a few metro stops from DCA too! Fingers crossed..

jfklganyc wrote:

Of course it has to do with Hawaii flying.

Flight out, flight back.

Pilots aren’t flying PHX-LAX-HNL in one day.

Hawaii is a special flight with special padding for days with stronger winds, bad weather etc.

Working it into a larger pairing is also a pain.

Hawaii trips are 3 day trips. Add on layovers in LAX on either end and you have 5 day trips at minimum.

It is cleaner and easier for all involved (pilots and company) if LAX is a base for launching these flights.

Based on what Gary Kelly told the Las Vegas Review-Journal on Tuesday, it looks like LAX and one other California station (I'd guess OAK) will be the two cities which launch Hawaii service:

Southwest is still waiting for federal clearance to launch flights to Hawaii by the end of this year, but Kelly said initial service will be limited to one or two yet-to-be-determined airports in California.

Southwest has no immediate plans for nonstop flights between Hawaii and McCarran International, but Kelly noted that Las Vegas is a one-hour hop to most California airports.

“We have such great service between California and Las Vegas, so I think we’ll have very nice itineraries to and from Hawaii and here as well,” Kelly said. “I think that’s definitely something to look forward to more in 2019 or 2020 as we continue to grow our presence in Hawaii.”

SWApilotfarmer wrote:

Flyguy

This, to me, is the most logical answer. It’s all about costs and the ability to find decent crew accommodations. Hawaii flying could be supported by any base they already have. Someone mentioned stationing ETOPS pilots at LAX. I certainly can’t speak for how southwest intends on operating, but Alaska pilots are all capable of operating ETOPS flights, not just those at a particular base. It didn’t start that way, but they quickly all became qualified. It would make sense for southwest to do the same, given their route structure and knowing how they appreciate the cost effectiveness of a consistency. It would be more costly to have a particular cadre of pilots that operate only a particular mission.[/quote]

From my understanding All WN pilots will go thru ETOPS training.
WN likes to have its pilots available to fly anywhere anytime.

Flyguy[/quote]

This is incorrect. Only a very small number of pilots will be going thru ETOPS training. Maybe 300 but that number is nothing more than a guess. The ETOPS qualified pilots will not only do ETOPS trips but also normal non-ETOPS trips. I think the training is maybe 3 days but I don’t remember exactly and they are still working out the plan. Wouldn’t surprise me if we end up with an ETOPS subset in OAK and even PHX and LAS. But it doesn’t really make sense to train 9200 pilots when we might have 10 flights out of 4000 daily that requires and ETOPS qualified crew.[/quote]

3 days for ETOPS training? WTF? What are they gonna do? It's just a set of rules, not docking to the Space Station. Not really complicated.