now with no restrictions, deliveries will start thism year, source:

http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engines/d ... begin-year

Any idea when this year? The article says they were originally scheduled to start in April 2018, but that’s right around the corner. Regardless, this is great news!

I've been hearing fall. The pilot training program has/is being developed, but no bid has been put out for the positions, so it will be a while before line pilots start getting trained.

dbo861 wrote:

Any idea when this year? The article says they were originally scheduled to start in April 2018, but that’s right around the corner. Regardless, this is great news!

The two timeframes I have seen are August and November

It is a very good news that Bombardier will be able to deliver C Series to Delta this year.

I sincerely think they need to deliver as many C Series as possible and as soon as possible to Delta at the right level of quality.
If required, I think Bombardier should reschedule deliveries to some other airlines and put Delta as a priority.

VV wrote:

If required, I think Bombardier should reschedule deliveries to some other airlines and put Delta as a priority.

Messing with one or more customers to please another is hardly good business! Besides, why would BBD be in a hurry to get Delta's aircraft out the door when, presumably, they're making a loss on each one?

B777LRF wrote:

VV wrote:

If required, I think Bombardier should reschedule deliveries to some other airlines and put Delta as a priority.

Messing with one or more customers to please another is hardly good business! Besides, why would BBD be in a hurry to get Delta's aircraft out the door when, presumably, they're making a loss on each one?

Cash flow. Whether they're making a paper loss when already-spent program costs are fully-allocated to each frame, they almost certainly are not losing money on a variable-cost basis, meaning that they will take in more money from Delta for each frame than they have to spend now on labor and materials to make each frame.

IMHO, it's interesting that Bombardier's CEO is very talky in the 'ATW' piece with a publication date of 16 Feb. while the day before, Delta issues a press release that says, in short, 'We're still in discussions.'

http://news.delta.com/delta-determining ... n-decision

More coordination of message seems typical.

How many C Series have been delivered so far this year?

VV wrote:

How many C Series have been delivered so far this year?

Only one to AirBaltic

MIflyer12 wrote:

IMHO, it's interesting that Bombardier's CEO is very talky in the 'ATW' piece with a publication date of 16 Feb. while the day before, Delta issues a press release that says, in short, 'We're still in discussions.'

http://news.delta.com/delta-determining ... n-decision

More coordination of message seems typical.

I don't see a significant difference in the messages from either source. Both expect deliveries in 2018.

Actually the delivery of CSeries planes have been notoriously slow. It's not the first time Bombardier is manufacturing a plane. I can't imagine the CSeries is that much difficult to make than a CRJ 1000. Besides P&W that is dragging its feet, is there other hold-ups?

raylee67 wrote:

Actually the delivery of CSeries planes have been notoriously slow. It's not the first time Bombardier is manufacturing a plane. I can't imagine the CSeries is that much difficult to make than a CRJ 1000. Besides P&W that is dragging its feet, is there other hold-ups?

For DL there is one other hold up. Rumor is The DL interior group is having problems with the interior configuration. They were never going to be ready for the April deliveries. I don't know any specifics, just heard it around the TOC.

Dalmd88 wrote:

raylee67 wrote:

Actually the delivery of CSeries planes have been notoriously slow. It's not the first time Bombardier is manufacturing a plane. I can't imagine the CSeries is that much difficult to make than a CRJ 1000. Besides P&W that is dragging its feet, is there other hold-ups?

For DL there is one other hold up. Rumor is The DL interior group is having problems with the interior configuration. They were never going to be ready for the April deliveries. I don't know any specifics, just heard it around the TOC.

To be frank at BBD's current pace they were never going to be ready for an April delivery either.

raylee67 wrote:

Actually the delivery of CSeries planes have been notoriously slow. It's not the first time Bombardier is manufacturing a plane. I can't imagine the CSeries is that much difficult to make than a CRJ 1000. Besides P&W that is dragging its feet, is there other hold-ups?

That's a very good question.

The target for last year was 30 deliveries. Then finally only 17 were delivered. Logically there are now about 13 airframes ready to ship.
But, there have not been many acceptance flights.

What's going on? Does anyone know about it around here?

VV wrote:

What's going on? Does anyone know about it around here?

VV, as an ex BBD employee, I'm sure you still have some contacts in Mirabel. Therefore, you know very well that there were some supplier issues.

As we all know, the prime traffic jam ("critical path") has been the engines (PW).

The lack of suficient engine shipments probably did hide other suppliers issues, like some interiors sets... (BBD had to send his own employees onsite to QA kits before authorizing shipping out to YMX).

You also know that the current Mirabel FAL configuration is not optimal (understatement here) as it's only half finished. The FAL "second half" has not been constructed (BBD had to save $$$ two years ago). Some unused CRJ space is beeing used for that function. It's really inefficient and that would have been the bottle neck - if not for PW.

In my opinion, before spending $300M in a 2nd FAL in MOB, I would at least complete that first one in YMX... (Anyways, BBD revenues has improved considerably since)

I'm sure you can entertain us with some other crunchy stories...

Dalmd88 wrote:

raylee67 wrote:

Actually the delivery of CSeries planes have been notoriously slow. It's not the first time Bombardier is manufacturing a plane. I can't imagine the CSeries is that much difficult to make than a CRJ 1000. Besides P&W that is dragging its feet, is there other hold-ups?

For DL there is one other hold up. Rumor is The DL interior group is having problems with the interior configuration. They were never going to be ready for the April deliveries. I don't know any specifics, just heard it around the TOC.

Right. They're having issues with the wireless IFE certification if I'm not mistaken.

777Mech wrote:

Dalmd88 wrote:

raylee67 wrote:

Actually the delivery of CSeries planes have been notoriously slow. It's not the first time Bombardier is manufacturing a plane. I can't imagine the CSeries is that much difficult to make than a CRJ 1000. Besides P&W that is dragging its feet, is there other hold-ups?

For DL there is one other hold up. Rumor is The DL interior group is having problems with the interior configuration. They were never going to be ready for the April deliveries. I don't know any specifics, just heard it around the TOC.

Right. They're having issues with the wireless IFE certification if I'm not mistaken.

Yep. I have heard the FAA isn't a fan.

FWIW the same idea was going to be on the 787 and FAA wouldn't bite.


I don't really understand it. From my understanding the CS PTVs are basically iPads fixed in the seat hooked up wireless linked to a server on the aircraft from GoGo. No different than me bringing my iPad on the plane and linking it Delta Studio. Could have it wrong though.

Can't wait to see the new ones in ATL

Deliveries scheduled for this fall per our latest meeting.

For those that are impatient, the GeminiJets version comes out in April

ExMilitaryEng wrote:

VV wrote:

What's going on? Does anyone know about it around here?

VV, as an ex BBD employee, I'm sure you still have some contacts in Mirabel. Therefore, you know very well that there were some supplier issues.

As we all know, the prime traffic jam ("critical path") has been the engines (PW).

The lack of suficient engine shipments probably did hide other suppliers issues, like some interiors sets... (BBD had to send his own employees onsite to QA kits before authorizing shipping out to YMX).

You also know that the current Mirabel FAL configuration is not optimal (understatement here) as it's only half finished. The FAL "second half" has not been constructed (BBD had to save $$$ two years ago). Some unused CRJ space is beeing used for that function. It's really inefficient and that would have been the bottle neck - if not for PW.

In my opinion, before spending $300M in a 2nd FAL in MOB, I would at least complete that first one in YMX... (Anyways, BBD revenues has improved considerably since)

I'm sure you can entertain us with some other crunchy stories...

Well, in 4 days it will be full two years I left Mirabel with hundreds other laid-off employees. Honestly, I do not ask specifics about the C Series to my friends. I do not want to put friends in trouble, nor do I want to lose friends. By the way, most of my former colleagues are now in Nagoya, in Moses Lake, in Savannah or in Sao Jose de Campos. Others are now in Toulouse.

Two years is a very long period and I expect things have improved in Mirabel. It is very difficult to imagine that after such a long time period nothing or little has been done. Please do not tell me that little has changed since two years.

As for the Final Assembly Line in Mobile, Alabama, I agree with your comment. Considering the order book size and the current delivery rate there seems to be enough production capacity in Mirabel. So, the motivation about building a second final assembly line in Mobile is a little bit intriguing, especially when we know Bombardier has already an industrial footprint in Wichita, Kansas, USA.

Something still intrigues me a lot about the C Series delivery stream. Last year delivery target was 30 to 35 units. Then the target went down to 20-25 toward the end of 2017. Thus, there should have been at least about 5 units ready for delivery by now and yet nothing much happens. It really is very intriguing.

ExMilitaryEng, you seem to know a lot about Mirabel. Please tell us more.

BBD is entering the world of Boeing and Airbus as they are producing a mainline aircraft. Both are turning out more in one month than BBD can do in a year. Its going to be an uphill battle to get the frames out.

VV wrote:

The target for last year was 30 deliveries. Then finally only 17 were delivered. Logically there are now about 13 airframes ready to ship.
But, there have not been many acceptance flights.

It's not that black and white.

Last year Bombardier was supposed to increase CSeries production rate to 4 aircraft per month, but kept it at 2 per month during 2017. As such, there are no 13 airframes "ready to ship".

deltal1011man wrote:

777Mech wrote:

Dalmd88 wrote:

For DL there is one other hold up. Rumor is The DL interior group is having problems with the interior configuration. They were never going to be ready for the April deliveries. I don't know any specifics, just heard it around the TOC.

Right. They're having issues with the wireless IFE certification if I'm not mistaken.

Yep. I have heard the FAA isn't a fan.

FWIW the same idea was going to be on the 787 and FAA wouldn't bite.


I don't really understand it. From my understanding the CS PTVs are basically iPads fixed in the seat hooked up wireless linked to a server on the aircraft from GoGo. No different than me bringing my iPad on the plane and linking it Delta Studio. Could have it wrong though.

I am pretty sure the FAA is not the hold up for any potential IFE delay. I am sure details will come see if at all. Things are in line to deliver.

VV wrote:

...the motivation about building a second final assembly line in Mobile is a little bit intriguing, especially when we know Bombardier has already an industrial footprint in Wichita, Kansas, USA.

I have no intimate knowledge on this one, but I would believe that Mobile will be a lower cost manufacturing site (versus Wichita). One of the reasons could be the Airbus world class supply chain/logistics already set up (and growing) over there. (I do know that Wichita is the plan B).

VV wrote:

Something still intrigues me a lot about the C Series delivery stream. Last year delivery target was 30 to 35 units. Then the target went down to 20-25 toward the end of 2017...

When finances went south a few years ago, BBD had to identify what was essential to save the program.

A flawless entry into service was identified as critical. (They amazingly achieved that goal, and then some!).They still currently have a superbly competent product improvement team that works tirelessly to save weight, lower manufacturing costs and further improve quality / performance of the CSeries. Amazingly, they successfully keep improving the product right now, and a lot more will be accomplished in the next months/years. (The same team also address any bugs encountered by the current clients)

However, in order to survive, BBD had to cut / lay off pretty much everything else. (Including the massive lay off two years ago you did mention). Those cuts also affected BBD ability to achieve an effective production ramp up (Half finished YMX FAL etc).

The financial situation also affected BBD's negotiation position with its suppliers. BBD is paying insanely too much for many of its parts/sub systems, while some other suppliers solve issues first with their major clients (Airbus/Boeing), way before any BBD issues (that one is obvious). That's why the integration of the CSeries into the Airbus supply chain is essential and urgent.

Considering BBD financial situation at the time, I believe the right decisions were taken and the future now looks way brighter. (even if the Airbus partnership does not go thru)

If Airbus finalize the deal, with the experience and the know-how they have, I bet than by 2020 the supply chain and the Cseries production rate (or whatever will be the new name) will be at another level.

Anyone know when DL is scheduled to receive it's first CS300??

They're not scheduled to get any 300s.

ExMilitaryEng wrote:

I have no intimate knowledge on this one, but I would believe that Mobile will be a lower cost manufacturing site (versus Wichita). One of the reasons could be the Airbus world class supply chain/logistics already set up (and growing) over there. (I do know that Wichita is the plan B).

It might sound easy to say "Airbus world class supply chain/logistics already set up (and growing)" and that the C Series supply chain could be integrated to the Airbus existing infrastructure, but the reality is certainly quite different. A very good friend of mine happens to be someone who works in the supply chain management and logistic somewhere in the world. The person told me that migrating data from one system to another is not so trivial. And yes, the person told me that supply chain is a lot of IT infrastructure and also software. I think Airbus has SAP for its Enterprise Resource Planning. I believe Bombardier does too. However, it is not because the basic software is the same the two system can be merged easily. I predict at least a full one year of data and process integration before it becomes operational.

ExMilitaryEng wrote:

They still currently have a superbly competent product improvement team that works tirelessly to save weight, lower manufacturing costs and further improve quality / performance of the CSeries. Amazingly, they successfully keep improving the product right now, and a lot more will be accomplished in the next months/years.

Well-well-well, o me it sounds more like recovery program more than a continuous improvement. Is it just emptying the hopper of unfinished work?

I believe the financial situation is getting better, there is little doubt about it, although I do not think all the risks have been eliminated.

This discussion becomes very interesting. I need the truth because I still hold BBD.B shares equivalent to one year net salary (after taxes) in Bombardier at current price. I need to manage the risk of losing part of that investment if Bombardier does not improve its performance.

Thank you for the insight.

KarelXWB wrote:

VV wrote:

The target for last year was 30 deliveries. Then finally only 17 were delivered. Logically there are now about 13 airframes ready to ship.
But, there have not been many acceptance flights.

It's not that black and white.

Last year Bombardier was supposed to increase CSeries production rate to 4 aircraft per month, but kept it at 2 per month during 2017. As such, there are no 13 airframes "ready to ship".

Sorry I made a mistake when quoting 13 airframes. I subtracted 17 from 30, in reality it should have been around 5 aircraft ready or almost ready to deliver in January 2018. It corresponds to the latest target announced in November 2017 minus the actual delivery over the year, that is 22 minus 17.
http://www.industryweek.com/operations/ ... ine-delays

The reality is that there has been only ONE delivery until 16 February 2018.

In addition to my comment #32, I would like to add that some suppliers of the C Series are not necessarily the same as that of the A320. For instance, the avionics on the C Series is Rockwell Collins whereas the A320neo has Thales avionics.

I do not know how Airbus would help in that situation, unless it is willing to revamp the A320neo's avionics that is still the one from the old A320.

There also are contractual hurdles before the suppliers can reduce the pricing or improve the conditions for CSALP. Believe me, contract administration is always a mess and it can take months if not years to clear.

VV wrote:

KarelXWB wrote:

VV wrote:

The target for last year was 30 deliveries. Then finally only 17 were delivered. Logically there are now about 13 airframes ready to ship.
But, there have not been many acceptance flights.

It's not that black and white.

Last year Bombardier was supposed to increase CSeries production rate to 4 aircraft per month, but kept it at 2 per month during 2017. As such, there are no 13 airframes "ready to ship".

Sorry I made a mistake when quoting 13 airframes. I subtracted 17 from 30, in reality it should have been around 5 aircraft ready or almost ready to deliver in January 2018. It corresponds to the latest target announced in November 2017 minus the actual delivery over the year, that is 22 minus 17.
http://www.industryweek.com/operations/ ... ine-delays

The reality is that there has been only ONE delivery until 16 February 2018.

Delta might get one or two of the 12-20 deliveries this year, but I am skeptical. They will want a quickly grown sub fleet of 5 to ten rather than just one or two for six months, to operate with.

How about 1 a month starting this fall, EIS 3 months after first delivery with 3 planes in service, go to 1.5/month 6-8 months in, and 2/month 6-8 months later. Then slowly ramp up fleet for the next 7-10 years, building to 350 airplanes (more than the current total orderbook) including CS100, 300, and 500 versions? CY2021-2024 could see 5/month just for Delta. Hey this is an enthusiast website right? Thats what i would do if was running DL.

VV wrote:

(continuous improvement) Is it just emptying the hopper of unfinished work?

That may well be for many items. Still, if those "unfinished work" items mean that we'll end up with an even better aircraft, then all the better.

I agree with you that renegotiating some supplier's contracts might appear tricky. I was told that Airbus could have very convincing arguments (particularly for common suppliers). On that front, Airbus declared they would save about 15% on the overall CS manufacturing costs.

Furthermore, there should be a more effective (and "convincing") supplier QA process with Airbus onboard. That would save some running around at the FAL.

What I heard is that some unfavorable suppliers contracts (tied to the CS1/3 models) could be legally eliminated/replaced for an eventual CS500 (light) model. And if such a CS500 end up selling in more numbers that the CS100/300s... (We're definitely very far from any CS5 launch thought)

SteelChair wrote:

How about 1 a month starting this fall, EIS 3 months after first delivery with 3 planes in service, go to 1.5/month 6-8 months in, and 2/month 6-8 months later. Then slowly ramp up fleet for the next 7-10 years, building to 350 airplanes (more than the current total orderbook) including CS100, 300, and 500 versions? CY2021-2024 could see 5/month just for Delta. Hey this is an enthusiast website right? Thats what i would do if was running DL.

A carrier would REALLY want to be sure of capacity, quality, management stability, and longevity up and down the supplier network before committing $8 Billion or so to a fleet type. Airbus and Boeing have shown they're worthy. Do you think conservative Delta could sign off on Bombardier as supplier of a third to 40% of the mainline fleet? I surely don't.

jmt18325 wrote:

They're not scheduled to get any 300s.

Scheduled is the key word. After a certain number of aircraft Delta has the option to switch to the 300.

okie73 wrote:

jmt18325 wrote:

They're not scheduled to get any 300s.

Scheduled is the key word. After a certain number of aircraft Delta has the option to switch to the 300.

I understand that after CS100 delivery #35, DL can opt up to the CS300.

LawAndOrder wrote:

deltal1011man wrote:

777Mech wrote:

Right. They're having issues with the wireless IFE certification if I'm not mistaken.

Yep. I have heard the FAA isn't a fan.

FWIW the same idea was going to be on the 787 and FAA wouldn't bite.


I don't really understand it. From my understanding the CS PTVs are basically iPads fixed in the seat hooked up wireless linked to a server on the aircraft from GoGo. No different than me bringing my iPad on the plane and linking it Delta Studio. Could have it wrong though.

I am pretty sure the FAA is not the hold up for any potential IFE delay. I am sure details will come see if at all. Things are in line to deliver.

because why exactly?

deltal1011man wrote:

LawAndOrder wrote:

deltal1011man wrote:

Yep. I have heard the FAA isn't a fan.

FWIW the same idea was going to be on the 787 and FAA wouldn't bite.


I don't really understand it. From my understanding the CS PTVs are basically iPads fixed in the seat hooked up wireless linked to a server on the aircraft from GoGo. No different than me bringing my iPad on the plane and linking it Delta Studio. Could have it wrong though.

I am pretty sure the FAA is not the hold up for any potential IFE delay. I am sure details will come see if at all. Things are in line to deliver.

because why exactly?

I don't speak on rumors but I know FAA certification is a none issue for their ife and in service dates. I think it's a little more (and less) than the rumors floating around.

MIflyer12 wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

How about 1 a month starting this fall, EIS 3 months after first delivery with 3 planes in service, go to 1.5/month 6-8 months in, and 2/month 6-8 months later. Then slowly ramp up fleet for the next 7-10 years, building to 350 airplanes (more than the current total orderbook) including CS100, 300, and 500 versions? CY2021-2024 could see 5/month just for Delta. Hey this is an enthusiast website right? Thats what i would do if was running DL.

A carrier would REALLY want to be sure of capacity, quality, management stability, and longevity up and down the supplier network before committing $8 Billion or so to a fleet type. Airbus and Boeing have shown they're worthy. Do you think conservative Delta could sign off on Bombardier as supplier of a third to 40% of the mainline fleet? I surely don't.

They're going to invest a huge amount of money on new planes anyway, why no get the right sized planes? The airline industry is hugely capital intensive.

The key is over time. I gave a 10 year prediction. The connection fleet will continue to shrink over that time, the mainline fleet will grow. The CS fleet won't be 40% 10 years from now, itll be more like 25-30%.

And yes Bombardier and/or Airbus will have to deliver as the incremental orders are placed. Right now, they're failing.

In Delta's latest 10-K filing with the SEC, the airline showed that it will take 15 CSeries CS100s in 2018, 25 in 2019, and 16 in 2020


https://twitter.com/TheAviationBeat/sta ... 6075935745

deltal1011man wrote:

777Mech wrote:

Dalmd88 wrote:

For DL there is one other hold up. Rumor is The DL interior group is having problems with the interior configuration. They were never going to be ready for the April deliveries. I don't know any specifics, just heard it around the TOC.

Right. They're having issues with the wireless IFE certification if I'm not mistaken.

Yep. I have heard the FAA isn't a fan.

FWIW the same idea was going to be on the 787 and FAA wouldn't bite.


I don't really understand it. From my understanding the CS PTVs are basically iPads fixed in the seat hooked up wireless linked to a server on the aircraft from GoGo. No different than me bringing my iPad on the plane and linking it Delta Studio. Could have it wrong though.

Yeah but unlikely your iPad will pass a HIC (Head impact) test. Each of which depends on seat, monitor size, pitch, etc.

sadiqutp wrote:

In Delta's latest 10-K filing with the SEC, the airline showed that it will take 15 CSeries CS100s in 2018, 25 in 2019, and 16 in 2020


https://twitter.com/TheAviationBeat/sta ... 6075935745

That's an indication of Delta's contractual commitments for aircraft as of 12/31/17. It doesn't mean BBD and DL aren't renegotiating right now.

sadiqutp wrote:

In Delta's latest 10-K filing with the SEC, the airline showed that it will take 15 CSeries CS100s in 2018, 25 in 2019, and 16 in 2020


https://twitter.com/TheAviationBeat/sta ... 6075935745

So, the A330neo won’t come until 2020 now?

NateGreat wrote:

sadiqutp wrote:

In Delta's latest 10-K filing with the SEC, the airline showed that it will take 15 CSeries CS100s in 2018, 25 in 2019, and 16 in 2020


https://twitter.com/TheAviationBeat/sta ... 6075935745

So, the A330neo won’t come until 2020 now?

First A33N will be on property in February '19 last check.

777Mech wrote:

NateGreat wrote:

sadiqutp wrote:

In Delta's latest 10-K filing with the SEC, the airline showed that it will take 15 CSeries CS100s in 2018, 25 in 2019, and 16 in 2020


https://twitter.com/TheAviationBeat/sta ... 6075935745

So, the A330neo won’t come until 2020 now?

First A33N will be on property in February '19 last check.

So, when will news about cabin and onboard amenities, production of the first airframe, first flight, and inaugural happen?

777Mech wrote:

NateGreat wrote:

sadiqutp wrote:

In Delta's latest 10-K filing with the SEC, the airline showed that it will take 15 CSeries CS100s in 2018, 25 in 2019, and 16 in 2020


https://twitter.com/TheAviationBeat/sta ... 6075935745

So, the A330neo won’t come until 2020 now?

First A33N will be on property in February '19 last check.

Odd then that DL is saying that the first 4 will be arriving calendar year 2020 in their SEC filing.

Any update to the deliveries of CS100? We won't see 15 in 2018 by my estimate...

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

Any update to the deliveries of CS100? We won't see 15 in 2018 by my estimate...

Lightsaber

From the CSeries thread, I believe 2x CS100s are in the FAL at Mirabel. But there is supposedly an issue about certification of the seats, which are a new type for the CSeries that DL are having issues with. We will see if they roll out and deliver in a timely matter...

BTW, the CSeries production rate has ramped up quite a bit. About 3-4 A/C a month now, probably more soon.