factsonly wrote:

Anyone see a sign that KLM is struggling?

Well, I see a sign that someone equates capacity with profitability, sustainability, and/or the absence of opportunity cost...

...which is rather presumptuous when dealing with a carrier/market that's tried-then-pulled-out of Florida three times over the last decade or so.

LAX772LR wrote:

factsonly wrote:

Anyone see a sign that KLM is struggling?

Well, I see a sign that someone equates capacity with profitability, sustainability, and/or the absence of opportunity cost...

...which is rather presumptuous when dealing with a carrier/market that's tried-then-pulled-out of Florida three times over the last decade or so.

This is -not- evidence of a struggling route. It's common business sense. At the end of the day, while this conversation continues without any substantive data outside of one case and secondhand gossip, KL continues to send a very expensive aircraft to Miami three times a week. Could that change? Absolutely. Does that tell us anything about the overall MIA? Maybe, maybe not.

lavalampluva wrote:

Isn’t MIA rather over served? I mean it has a large population to draw from, but it’s geographical location maybe makes it more difficult for connecting pax.

Honestly, I was thinking the same thing. If you even factor in all the American legacy carriers into the equation it feels overserved in my opinion.

Blerg wrote:

As a European who regularly goes to the US, it's beyond me why anyone would waste his money to visit Florida when Cuba and certain Asian destinations offer better value for money. If I wanted a beach destination then I would go to California. Southern California is just perfect, especially if your point of entry is Long Beach Airport.

Miami is hardly a beach destination. Miami has an incredible music club scene and there are lots of music festivals and other shows and exhibits. Winter Music Conference is a global event in March, along with Art Basel (for the very rich), Miami International Boat Show, etc. If there is a decrease in traffic this winter, it probably has to do with the devastating impact of hurricane season on the Keys and Caribbean islands.

Please keep the politics out of the thread and discuss the topic otherwise the thread will have to be locked

Hey I thought we were trying to keep politics out of this thread? However the point is proven if politics in the US has devolved into demonizing the other side as seen here. No one wants to vacation in a country with political strife that is nearly boiling into violence.

Galwayman wrote:

I think Europeans are bored with a Miami , it’s like a tiny overpriced version of Havana - unless they’re going on cruises

Metropolitan Miami is three times bigger than Havana, fyi.

qf789 wrote:

Please keep the politics out of the thread and discuss the topic otherwise the thread will have to be locked

Fair enough. A few general observations - please feel free to delete this or move it to another place on the forum:

1. This thread, like many others, includes inherently political debates (questions of cultural perceptions, discussion over the role of states in markets, etc). How do we facilitate these conversations in a way that enables us to talk about the substance of disagreement in a way that also satisfies your team?

2. On a related note, I have observed that much of what is labeled "political" and is thus removed by mods generally falls into two categories: things that are overtly offensive, or things that generate prolonged conflict. In addition to my question above, I would like to point out that there is a -lot- of "political" discussion that happens here that is often objectionable (i.e. Worthy of objection), but which seems to fall beyond the radar of your moderating team. I appreciate that you are collectively volunteering, but I want to point out that there is a cultural "common sense" on this forum that enables certain political comments to circulate as common sense. I would hate for folks who object to these political undertones to be signaled out, when we really do need to be facilitating more nuanced conversation here and in the world. We live in a global society, and people who have historically been excluded from conversations now have a say. It would be nice to have a forum environment that is inclusive of alternative perspectives and provocations to the conventional wisdom.

ualcsr wrote:

Galwayman wrote:

I think Europeans are bored with a Miami , it’s like a tiny overpriced version of Havana - unless they’re going on cruises

Metropolitan Miami is three times bigger than Havana, fyi.

And is arguably the financial services capital of Latin America (or, more precisely, for brokering international capital flows into and out of LA). It is also the single largest destination for foreign real estate investment in the US. It ain't all about the beach.

VS has been in the MIA markets for decades and I am sure they are finding their own niche in MIA
EI is a new starter in MIA so some time is needed to access their business before any conclusion can be made
WW is an LCC operating using a330 relying purely on connection - its success was never guarantee

If we see the likes of IB, BA, AF, LH and LX cutback in MIA then it maybe telling a story, but not yet.

Didn't PIA and CI recently cutback from the NY market?
Or how about DL and UA cutting back on Polynesia-NRT?
AM is cutting services to Calgary
Perhaps we should all start a new thread claiming that NY, Calgary and Polynesia are losing popularity?

axiom wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

factsonly wrote:

Anyone see a sign that KLM is struggling?

Well, I see a sign that someone equates capacity with profitability, sustainability, and/or the absence of opportunity cost...

...which is rather presumptuous when dealing with a carrier/market that's tried-then-pulled-out of Florida three times over the last decade or so.

This is -not- evidence of a struggling route. It's common business sense. At the end of the day, while this conversation continues without any substantive data outside of one case and secondhand gossip, KL continues to send a very expensive aircraft to Miami three times a week. Could that change? Absolutely. Does that tell us anything about the overall MIA? Maybe, maybe not.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-16feb18/

FWIW Amsterdam – Miami Seasonal service operates until 24MAR18, instead of 30JUN18

axiom wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

factsonly wrote:

Anyone see a sign that KLM is struggling?

Well, I see a sign that someone equates capacity with profitability, sustainability, and/or the absence of opportunity cost...

...which is rather presumptuous when dealing with a carrier/market that's tried-then-pulled-out of Florida three times over the last decade or so.

This is -not- evidence of a struggling route.

Can you point out to anywhere where I've said it is? I'll wait.

axiom wrote:

2. On a related note, I have observed that much of what is labeled "political" and is thus removed by mods generally falls into two categories: things that are overtly offensive, or things that generate prolonged conflict.

There is again a trend to remove rather factual observations that are deemed offensive.
Couple of years ago lots of good postings vanished
and whole interesting topics were deleted because they did not fit a certain viewpoint.
( I wrote myself a scraping package to fix that for me. when I had it ready moderation changed again .. to the better.)

Here the topic title has a misleading slant already. ( But was not "fixed" )

A distinct reduction in passenger numbers could have a technical reason. But there is no way around
to look at the global political environment for possible cause.
Posters have brought conducive facts to the table to place this "struggling" into the political field.

LAX772LR wrote:

axiom wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

Well, I see a sign that someone equates capacity with profitability, sustainability, and/or the absence of opportunity cost...

...which is rather presumptuous when dealing with a carrier/market that's tried-then-pulled-out of Florida three times over the last decade or so.

This is -not- evidence of a struggling route.

Can you point out to anywhere where I've said it is? I'll wait.

You suggested that there were more reasons that KL may be struggling; I added that your rational skepticism was also *not* clear evidence to the OP's claim that EU routes at MIA are sluggish. This wasn't an attack on you - and apologies if I misunderstood your point.

WIederling wrote:

axiom wrote:

2. On a related note, I have observed that much of what is labeled "political" and is thus removed by mods generally falls into two categories: things that are overtly offensive, or things that generate prolonged conflict.

There is again a trend to remove rather factual observations that are deemed offensive.
Couple of years ago lots of good postings vanished
and whole interesting topics were deleted because they did not fit a certain viewpoint.
( I wrote myself a scraping package to fix that for me. when I had it ready moderation changed again .. to the better.)

Here the topic title has a misleading slant already. ( But was not "fixed" )

A distinct reduction in passenger numbers could have a technical reason. But there is no way around
to look at the global political environment for possible cause.
Posters have brought conducive facts to the table to place this "struggling" into the political field.

Having written a response to the political comments yes, they were overtly political. Frothing at the mouth us-politics political.

ualcsr wrote:

Galwayman wrote:

I think Europeans are bored with a Miami , it’s like a tiny overpriced version of Havana - unless they’re going on cruises

Metropolitan Miami is three times bigger than Havana, fyi.

How much of that is different than any run of the mill western metropolitan area? 10%?

Havana in comparison is a full scale Open Air Museum in an environment that welcomes you.

VS seem to be really struggling. Not a week goes by at the moment where they don’t have some sort of MIA sale. They’ve given away return tickets for £50 recently if you find a VS flight attendant at Waterloo Station and say the words “Screw it, let’s do it!” They have also offered discounted award tickets specifically to MIA, and have offered big discounts in their general sale.

The hurricane has certainly put a lot of people off the Caribbean at the moment which has hit the cruise industry and therefore airlines like VS who fill a lot of seats with cruise passengers. More anecdotally UK tourists, who have long had a love in with the US in general, are beginning to look elsewhere with Asia being particularly popular and increasingly affordable.

Kadish wrote:

Dont go that far, we have Mallorca,Menorca, Canaries....within a few hours from Europe

And, if you are willing to fly across the Atlantic to go to the beach, there is stiff competition for MIA one hour flying down the road. Where you may be able to speak your home language, get better prices, whatever reason people have. Massive traffic from many European countries into their former Caribbean colonies.

Skyblue39 wrote:

I also see no hard facts about Aer Lingus Dublin - Miami service struggling. The flight only started a few months back. I’m VERY curious to see these assertions backed up with actual data and facts.

I think this was a rumour that started over on the Irish thread but there was no evidence given to substantiate it.