Good results posted by Air Canada today.

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2018-02 ... al-Results

Interesting information provided on employee site regarding the planned fleet. 2018 will see the addition of 5 Boeing 789 and 16 Boeing 7M8, along with a reduction of 4 Boeing 763, 2 Airbus 319 and 6 Embraer 190.

For 2019 Air Canada expects the addition of 2 Boeing 789, 4 Airbus 333, 18 Boeing 7M8 and 1 Bombardier CS3. Planned reductions are 5 Boeing 763, 11 Airbus 320, 2 Airbus 319 and 5 Embraer 190.

Appears to be true that the Airbus 333 fleet will be increasing.

That's a lot of new Boeing 7M8s joining the fleet. Given that they won't be retiring as many Airbuses does it mean they will use the Boeings for growth? Are the B763s being moved to Rouge?

The Rouge widebody fleet is maxed out with 25 aircraft in the fleet. Only the narrowbody fleet can grow with the new pilot agreement, and growth there requires growth at mainline.

jmt18325 wrote:

The Rouge widebody fleet is maxed out with 25 aircraft in the fleet. Only the narrowbody fleet can grow with the new pilot agreement, and growth there requires growth at mainline.

Thank you. Is that the reason why some destinations like Warsaw were switched from Rouge to mainline?

jmt18325 wrote:

The Rouge widebody fleet is maxed out with 25 aircraft in the fleet. Only the narrowbody fleet can grow with the new pilot agreement, and growth there requires growth at mainline.

Unless the growth is for Regional Replacement Aircraft. There is no limit to the aircraft for that program, and no growth is required at mainline.

Where are the 333 coming from?

chrisa330 wrote:

jmt18325 wrote:

The Rouge widebody fleet is maxed out with 25 aircraft in the fleet. Only the narrowbody fleet can grow with the new pilot agreement, and growth there requires growth at mainline.

Unless the growth is for Regional Replacement Aircraft. There is no limit to the aircraft for that program, and no growth is required at mainline.

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that.

No information provided as to the source of the additional Airbus 333 aircraft.

jmt18325 wrote:

chrisa330 wrote:

jmt18325 wrote:

The Rouge widebody fleet is maxed out with 25 aircraft in the fleet. Only the narrowbody fleet can grow with the new pilot agreement, and growth there requires growth at mainline.

Unless the growth is for Regional Replacement Aircraft. There is no limit to the aircraft for that program, and no growth is required at mainline.

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that.

Also....

As the E190 was not considered as a part of the mainline fleet, (?), every time a CSeries replaces an E190, it is considered "growth" and will allow another Rouge Fin.

chrisa330 wrote:

jmt18325 wrote:

Regional Replacement Aircraft.

What does this mean exactly?

yycdel wrote:

chrisa330 wrote:

jmt18325 wrote:

Regional Replacement Aircraft.

What does this mean exactly?

If a route is currently being flown by the "regionals", then it can be replaced by Rouge without corresponding growth at mainline.

A good example would be the current Jazz Q400s flying YYZ-YQB will be replaced by 5 daily A319s of Rouge for the summer.

Does this indicate they are taking options on some additional 789s? I thought the original order was for 29 with 13 options. Wikipedia says the current fleet is 24. The 5 this year brings them to 29. So the deliveries in 2019 would be some of the options? Or have I missed something?

[twoid][/twoid]

YVRing wrote:

Does this indicate they are taking options on some additional 789s? I thought the original order was for 29 with 13 options. Wikipedia says the current fleet is 24. The 5 this year brings them to 29. So the deliveries in 2019 would be some of the options? Or have I missed something?

The 24 includes 2 B789s already received in 2018. They have 3 more this year, and 2 in 2019.

No sign of option exercising yet.

chrisa330 wrote:

[twoid][/twoid]

YVRing wrote:

Does this indicate they are taking options on some additional 789s? I thought the original order was for 29 with 13 options. Wikipedia says the current fleet is 24. The 5 this year brings them to 29. So the deliveries in 2019 would be some of the options? Or have I missed something?

The 24 includes 2 B789s already received in 2018. They have 3 more this year, and 2 in 2019.

No sign of option exercising yet.

Ah I didn't realise they already recieved two this year. Thanks for the info. The addition of a330s is interesting. I assume a lease of some sort.

yycdel wrote:

Where are the 333 coming from?

Weren't there rumours a while ago that AA's 333 might go to AC ?

Seems like 2 mainline A319 are moving to Rouge. Any chance that they'll be the old ETOPS A319s which won't be needed to fly YYT-LHR with the B38M being used as a replacement?

They confirmed during the analyst call today that the A330s will be leased. Didn’t mention the source though.

Im guessing these A333s will mostly be based out east, in YYZ and YUL. Only pilot base for the type is YUL I believe. Will that change?

Why are the A333 even still in the Air Canada fleet that used to be largely Airbus based and has gone Boeing which ditched the A340 as soon as it could. The A333 should be on its way back to Toulouse to reire( or Arizona) Adding more A333 seems sill when AC has plenty of 767 lying around. AC has even purchased 737 Max jets, how many airlines have ditched an A320 fleet for 737 Max? Few and maybe only AC. Loving the 789 with the new Paint job, the 777-300ER hatng A330 with maple leals.

The A333 is a very capable performer and has higher capacity than the 763 ER. They are an excellent transatlantic aircraft. They also happen to be the most comfortable widebody in AC's fleet; or at least tied with the 767s that haven't been "rouged". Incidentally at least one A330 has been painted into the new livery.

Beech

beechnut wrote:

The A333 is a very capable performer and has higher capacity than the 763 ER. They are an excellent transatlantic aircraft. They also happen to be the most comfortable widebody in AC's fleet; or at least tied with the 767s that haven't been "rouged". Incidentally at least one A330 has been painted into the new livery.

Beech

Agree 100%. The A333 is an great aircraft for transatlantic travel. Very comfortable to travel . I am glad AC is increasing and not decreasing their number.

yycdel wrote:

Where are the 333 coming from?

Singapore Airlines

jfk777 wrote:

Why are the A333 even still in the Air Canada fleet that used to be largely Airbus based and has gone Boeing which ditched the A340 as soon as it could.

Simply crunching the numbers, the A330-300 on a flight from eastern North America to Europe has seat mile costs less than a 787! Apparently, the 787 is a beast on a 11 hour + flight, but on a 7 1/2 to 9 hour flight all of that extra capability not being used becomes very expensive ... not to mention the capital cost is less than half.

I am curious to see what the J cabin will look like. When Premium Economy was put into the A330s last year, the J cabin was left with the old 2006 era lie flat pods. While state of the art then, they are looking dated today. It would be great to see a cabin similar to the latest 777/787 J cabin.

So with 9 763s forecast to leave by the end of 2019, will that leave any of them in the mainline fleet come 2020?

Dominion301 wrote:

So with 9 763s forecast to leave by the end of 2019, will that leave any of them in the mainline fleet come 2020?

Air Canada's website says they have 8 767's in their fleet, so i'd guess not.

Showing one (1) 767-300 remaining in the mainline fleet as of Dec 31st 2019.

I remember when the A330 used to be on the YYC-FRA route. I miss those days. So much superior to the 10-across 777's.

I just wonder what will eventually replace those Rouge 767's; they are starting to get up there in age. I wonder (but kinda doubt) if AC would order 787's with maybe a lease back on a bunch of them to lower capital costs OR go with something like new A330ceos or neos with lower capital costs. Maybe they find 20-25ish lightly used A330ceos somewhere (maybe from singapore airlines as was mentioned here, those are all really young). Lightly used A330ceos would seem to make the most sense to me, but it's just a guess.

YVRing wrote:

I just wonder what will eventually replace those Rouge 767's; they are starting to get up there in age. I wonder (but kinda doubt) if AC would order 787's with maybe a lease back on a bunch of them to lower capital costs OR go with something like new A330ceos or neos with lower capital costs. Maybe they find 20-25ish lightly used A330ceos somewhere (maybe from singapore airlines as was mentioned here, those are all really young). Lightly used A330ceos would seem to make the most sense to me, but it's just a guess.

I've wondered about that myself quite a bit, but given that Rouge seems on the surface to be pulling in impressive yields given it's nature, I can see it worthy of a certain level of investment. The issue is, the 767 doesn't have a perfect replacement, and is the perfect airplane for Rouge. Going for the A333 seems to be logical, and they will likely benefit from a stack of them from mainline at some point when they are replaced, well into the future, though that would be a huge increase in seats. The 797 sounds fantastic, however, it won't realistically be available for a decade, which isn't credible given the age of the 767s. There is also the option of the 787, with more and more 789s produced, there is a chance some 788s end up on the second hand market. Mainline could also confirm it's options for 9s and 10s, and ship the 788s to Rouge, leaving them with the need to source realistically another 10 or so, not all would need to be replaced, as they can just add more narrow bodies now and use those to increase frequency to places like FALL, MCO, MIA, LAS and PHX which see the 763 currently.

As for mainline, I think the additional A330s will be a really solid bridge aircraft. I think it's pretty clear they are going to need significantly more 787s given their current trajectory. Adding A330s now saves a ton of money which gives them more capacity at a much lower initial investment which will continue to help their numbers financially. It also gives them more time to evaluate just how many more 787s they will need, and what model best suits them. With WS expanding rapidly, it will also give the market more time to stabilize and allow them to better understand the impact that their 787s will have. I think that is the X factor. The initial order may only be for 10, but their plans are for MANY more. AC has to decide how to react, and first, they need to see what they are really up against.

I don't know where Air Canada gets (10) as the number of 763s. The number is (8). At 12/31, one could say it was (9) as C-FXCA was in Singapore getting "Rouged" but the 10th, C-FCAB was sent to the desert to be scraped on 10/25/17. That is a stretch for inclusion. Nonetheless the remaining (8) get retired (2) in 2017, (5) in 2018 and (1) in 2019.

hkcanadaexpat wrote:

Nonetheless the remaining (8) get retired (2) in 2017, (5) in 2018 and (1) in 2019.

It will be 2 in 2018, 3 in 2019 and the last 3 in 2020. FIN 683/C-FCAF was retired in 2017.

Thomaas wrote:

yycdel wrote:

Where are the 333 coming from?

Singapore Airlines

Air Canada has not yet made the source of the A330s public. It isn't Singapore Airlines.

I'm glad to see AC adding more A333s. Obviously the type has some specific operational values for them. In a way they are just like what the DC-10s were to NW before they finally took delivery of their ordered Airbus'.

jmt18325 wrote:

The Rouge widebody fleet is maxed out with 25 aircraft in the fleet. Only the narrowbody fleet can grow with the new pilot agreement, and growth there requires growth at mainline.

Apparently in a recent call AC confirmed that once all of its Boeing 787s have been delivered, there will no longer be a limit on Rouge narrowbodies.

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/air-canada-revenue-adjusted-earnings-113308835.html?platform=hootsuite

jfk777 wrote:

Why are the A333 even still in the Air Canada fleet that used to be largely Airbus based and has gone Boeing which ditched the A340 as soon as it could. The A333 should be on its way back to Toulouse to reire( or Arizona) Adding more A333 seems sill when AC has plenty of 767 lying around. AC has even purchased 737 Max jets, how many airlines have ditched an A320 fleet for 737 Max? Few and maybe only AC. Loving the 789 with the new Paint job, the 777-300ER hatng A330 with maple leals.

Awesome post and spelling. 10/10

longhauler wrote:

hkcanadaexpat wrote:

Nonetheless the remaining (8) get retired (2) in 2017, (5) in 2018 and (1) in 2019.

It will be 2 in 2018, 3 in 2019 and the last 3 in 2020. FIN 683/C-FCAF was retired in 2017.

Unfortunately, the info regarding FIN 683, C-FCAF is incorrect. FIN 683 was here in YYT last week flying AC860 YYT-LHR. And according to Flightradar24, she's been flying YYZ-SFO rotations.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-fcaf

AC_B777 wrote:

longhauler wrote:

hkcanadaexpat wrote:

Nonetheless the remaining (8) get retired (2) in 2017, (5) in 2018 and (1) in 2019.

It will be 2 in 2018, 3 in 2019 and the last 3 in 2020. FIN 683/C-FCAF was retired in 2017.

Unfortunately, the info regarding FIN 683, C-FCAF is incorrect. FIN 683 was here in YYT last week flying AC860 YYT-LHR. And according to Flightradar24, she's been flying YYZ-SFO rotations.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-fcaf

Its funny, I never thought to check on it, but the information I relayed was from an investors' Power Point Presentation!

That being the case then, the 767 retirement information I gave, may be suspect as well, as on the same slide it mentioned the retirement of 683.

I wonder if A321LR would be suitable for Rouge for some 763 replacements even though it's a bit smaller.

The rest can be replaced with A330s/788 from mainline

longhauler wrote:

Simply crunching the numbers, the A330-300 on a flight from eastern North America to Europe has seat mile costs less than a 787! Apparently, the 787 is a beast on a 11 hour + flight, but on a 7 1/2 to 9 hour flight all of that extra capability not being used becomes very expensive ... not to mention the capital cost is less than half.

That's some really interesting information on the 333 CASM vs the 787. I can only imagine the 330neo would then be pretty overwhelmingly advantageous on transatlantic routes from YYZ and YUL. It makes a pretty strong case for a 330neo order a little down the line, as it sounds like it would be excellent for those routes as well as for Rouge. Maintaining multiple widebody types is hardly an obstacle, since AC already has 4. Standardizing on the 777 for the heaviest routes, 787 for long-haul, and 330neo for transatlantic/Rouge would still mean one fewer type.

longhauler wrote:

AC_B777 wrote:

longhauler wrote:

It will be 2 in 2018, 3 in 2019 and the last 3 in 2020. FIN 683/C-FCAF was retired in 2017.

Unfortunately, the info regarding FIN 683, C-FCAF is incorrect. FIN 683 was here in YYT last week flying AC860 YYT-LHR. And according to Flightradar24, she's been flying YYZ-SFO rotations.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-fcaf

Its funny, I never thought to check on it, but the information I relayed was from an investors' Power Point Presentation!

That being the case then, the 767 retirement information I gave, may be suspect as well, as on the same slide it mentioned the retirement of 683.

Nothing to do with your post..... but remember last year or maybe ‘16 when the haters were ripping AC for reporting on Fridays? Or Friday’s before long weekends? That they were in trouble and were running from the stock market?

Not much of that talk going on anymore......

aerolimani wrote:

I remember when the A330 used to be on the YYC-FRA route. I miss those days. So much superior to the 10-across 777's.

I miss the 343 and the 763 on YYC-FRA. "Have we lifted off yet??" and 2-3-2 in Y.

kjeld0d wrote:

aerolimani wrote:

I remember when the A330 used to be on the YYC-FRA route. I miss those days. So much superior to the 10-across 777's.

I miss the 343 and the 763 on YYC-FRA. "Have we lifted off yet??" and 2-3-2 in Y.

Ha!

I never got the 763 out of YYC. I did once do the short-lived LH YYC-FRA flight, on an A343.

longhauler wrote:

AC_B777 wrote:

longhauler wrote:

It will be 2 in 2018, 3 in 2019 and the last 3 in 2020. FIN 683/C-FCAF was retired in 2017.

Unfortunately, the info regarding FIN 683, C-FCAF is incorrect. FIN 683 was here in YYT last week flying AC860 YYT-LHR. And according to Flightradar24, she's been flying YYZ-SFO rotations.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-fcaf

Its funny, I never thought to check on it, but the information I relayed was from an investors' Power Point Presentation!

That being the case then, the 767 retirement information I gave, may be suspect as well, as on the same slide it mentioned the retirement of 683.

And C-FCAE which I believe is FIN 682 was supposed to have been retired already so I was told and hasn’t been yet. Just 681 was retired and so far they’ve left it at that so it seems. The plans seem to be changing every week at this point! Exciting times (other than those 737s )!

longhauler wrote:

AC_B777 wrote:

longhauler wrote:

It will be 2 in 2018, 3 in 2019 and the last 3 in 2020. FIN 683/C-FCAF was retired in 2017.

Unfortunately, the info regarding FIN 683, C-FCAF is incorrect. FIN 683 was here in YYT last week flying AC860 YYT-LHR. And according to Flightradar24, she's been flying YYZ-SFO rotations.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-fcaf

Its funny, I never thought to check on it, but the information I relayed was from an investors' Power Point Presentation!

That being the case then, the 767 retirement information I gave, may be suspect as well, as on the same slide it mentioned the retirement of 683.

And C-FCAE which I believe is FIN 682 was supposed to have been retired already so I was told and hasn’t been yet. Just 681 was retired and so far they’ve left it at that so it seems. The plans seem to be changing every week at this point! Exciting times (other than those 737s )!

Weren't there rumours a while ago that AA's 333 might go to AC ?[/quote]

I would be very surprised to see AA’s 333s join the AC fleet as they have PW powerplants. AC A333s have RR Trent 700s.

If there’s only 3 mainline 763s left come 2020 I’d hazard a guess the last 3 routes will be YOW-FRA, YOW-LHR & YHZ-LHR with YOW/YHZ-YYZ for fleet/crew rotation.

Dominion301 wrote:

If there’s only 3 mainline 763s left come 2020 I’d hazard a guess the last 3 routes will be YOW-FRA, YOW-LHR & YHZ-LHR with YOW/YHZ-YYZ for fleet/crew rotation.

There will only be 1 left come 2020. Probably used as a spare on YYZ-YYC & YYZ-YVR.

longhauler wrote:

Air Canada has not yet made the source of the A330s public. It isn't Singapore Airlines.

If they want to stick with RR-powered A333s, they could come from CX, unless they are open for a different engine manufacturer, such as one they already have in the fleet, i.e. GE.

Now only if AC would invest some of that record reported income in upgrading their meal service.

The meals in Y class on trans-Atlantic service are of poor quality and the presentation is terrible.

Just my two cents.

LC1002368 wrote:

Weren't there rumours a while ago that AA's 333 might go to AC ?
I would be very surprised to see AA’s 333s join the AC fleet as they have PW powerplants. AC A333s have RR Trent 700s.

Many of Rouge's 767's are powered by PW4060's. So i don't think maintaining PW powered A333's would be a problem. That said, if the A-net consensus that the Trents are the best engines for the A333 is true, they may not like PW powered A333's.

Edited due to problems with quoting

hkcanadaexpat wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

If there’s only 3 mainline 763s left come 2020 I’d hazard a guess the last 3 routes will be YOW-FRA, YOW-LHR & YHZ-LHR with YOW/YHZ-YYZ for fleet/crew rotation.

There will only be 1 left come 2020. Probably used as a spare on YYZ-YYC & YYZ-YVR.

Not according to what Longhauler wrote and he's kinda in the know. Quite frankly a lot can happen between now and then and mainline could easily wind up 2020 with a 1/2 dozen 763s still floating around.