So far, all we know about Delta’s C Series aircraft is that they will be based out of NYC and LAX. What routes and destinations could we expect to see the C Series operate, and will they fly to other Delta hubs like ATL, DTW, and MSP? What kind of seating configurations could we expect? 1-2 or 2-2 in First? 2-3/3-2 or 3-3 in Economy? Could we expect Comfort+? PTVs or no PTVs? Mood lighting or no mood lighting? Finally, when can we expect the first delivery and inaugural flight? Let me know what you guys think.

I think AUS will see a fair amount of them, perhaps building up a focus city.

The initial bases will be LGA and LAX, with additional bases being added in existing MD-80/90 bases. Does anyone have a comprehensive overview of DL's MD80/90 bases?

[list=][/list]

11725Flyer wrote:

I think AUS will see a fair amount of them, perhaps building up a focus city.

I know Delta flies primarily A321s to AUS from ATL.

Its the perfect aircraft to service MSP-DSM/FSD/FAR/MCI/STL/MDW/GRR

Adam

From what I have heard, current delivery estimate is either AUG 18 or NOV 18. I think economy will be 2-3 seating

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

"The only aircraft deal that Bombardier landed with a major US customer is with Delta Air Lines, which was looking for a 100-seat aircraft with a 1,000nm range and has agreed to buy 75 CS100 aircraft with options for another 50 aircraft. This is worthy of a critical look for more than one reason.
Boeing has accused Bombardier of dumping the C Series aircraft on the US market at a price that does not cover the production costs and has asked for an 80% tariff. What Boeing does not seem to take into account is the fact that the contract between Bombardier and Delta Air Lines is tailored as the airline has been looking into acquiring an aircraft the size of an MD-88 and regional range. This means that there are some specific properties of the C Series aircraft that Delta Air Lines is not interested in but that are incorporated in the base market value of the aircraft. To offset that, Bombardier has given additional discounts next to standard discounts and customary discounts for early adopters."

All that means, is that this will be a regional aircraft so expect it to be flying routes that are currently serviced by the E175 and CR9 rather than transcontinental routes

jubguy3 wrote:

The initial bases will be LGA and LAX, with additional bases being added in existing MD-80/90 bases. Does anyone have a comprehensive overview of DL's MD80/90 bases?

This is from 2017, so I don't know how up-to-date it is, others can probably paint a more up-to-date picture

ATL
777, 330, 76, 7ER, 737, 320, M88/90, 717

DTW
747, 777, 350, 330, 7ER, 737, 320, 717

MSP
7ER, 737, 320, M88/90

NYC
330, 76, 7ER, 737, 320, 717

SLC
7ER, 73N, 320

LAX.
777, 7ER, 737, 717.

SEA
330, 7ER, 737

CVG
737

All MD88s are being moved to ATL anyway this summer...

Yes, they will have PTVs and Economy Comfort.

Midwestindy wrote:

From what I have heard, current delivery estimate is either AUG 18 or NOV 18. I think economy will be 2-3 seating

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

Wait...what? How does that work? DL has to pay Bombardier more if they utilize the aircraft's full range? I'm not clear on the concept here.

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

From what I have heard, current delivery estimate is either AUG 18 or NOV 18. I think economy will be 2-3 seating

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

Wait...what? How does that work? DL has to pay Bombardier more if they utilize the aircraft's full range? I'm not clear on the concept here.

Yep, DL never intended the CSeries to open up these long/thin routes everyone has been talking about. That is a bad use of new (and expensive aircraft), thin margin routes are not going to cover the cost of new planes. This plan allows them to acquire the airplanes for a lower cost and put them on the routes to increase capacity without going up to larger mainline aircraft. Routes like LGA-CVG/RDU/ORD/etc and LAX-SFO/LAS/PHX/etc are where the aircraft is going to be operating, replacing CR9/E175's, which can replace CR7/E170's on other routes, which can replace CR2's.

This is from 2017, so I don't know how up-to-date it is, others can probably paint a more up-to-date picture

ATL
777, 330, 76, 7ER, 737, 320, M88/90, 717

DTW
747, 777, 350, 330, 7ER, 737, 320, 717

MSP
7ER, 737, 320, M88/90

NYC
330, 76, 7ER, 737, 320, 717

SLC
7ER, 73N, 320

LAX.
777, 7ER, 737, 717.

SEA
330, 7ER, 737

CVG
737

All MD88s are being moved to ATL anyway this summer...[/quote]
Any idea where the A330-900neo bases will be? ATL? JFK? SEA?

NateGreat wrote:

Any idea where the A330-900neo bases will be? ATL? JFK? SEA?

Presumably where existing 330 bases are already, so SEA, NYC, DTW, and ATL will be initial bases. They will also be replacing 763ERs slowly if I understand correctly, so SLC and MSP may also be 33N bases. Obviously 25 aircraft aren't going to be stretched between 6 hubs so they might allocate 33Ns to markets that would fully benefit from Delta One suites with premium capacity and move 330s into markets that have existing wide-bodies being replaced that can hold off for the Delta One suite upgrades.

cvgComair wrote:

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

From what I have heard, current delivery estimate is either AUG 18 or NOV 18. I think economy will be 2-3 seating

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

Wait...what? How does that work? DL has to pay Bombardier more if they utilize the aircraft's full range? I'm not clear on the concept here.

Yep, DL never intended the CSeries to open up these long/thin routes everyone has been talking about. That is a bad use of new (and expensive aircraft), thin margin routes are not going to cover the cost of new planes. This plan allows them to acquire the airplanes for a lower cost and put them on the routes to increase capacity without going up to larger mainline aircraft. Routes like LGA-CVG/RDU/ORD/etc and LAX-SFO/LAS/PHX/etc are where the aircraft is going to be operating, replacing CR9/E175's, which can replace CR7/E170's on other routes, which can replace CR2's.

I think it will take the place of longer regional routes. If flights like lax sfo make it, I would imagine it would b for utilization. I could see lga ord

C Series may also operate out of JFK. Also there is an open RFP with DGS at South Bend Indiana by Delta for a daily Regional Jet flight to JFK. Delta would like to use this Flight for international connections at JFK. The C-Series could free up a CRJ900 to operate this flight. Delta two years ago started a monthly rotation of sticking CRJ900’s in this and other CRJ200 cities in the Midwest to see how they would be received. SBN had them going to Minneapolis and Detroit and the were pretty packed including First Class. The Afternoon MSP Flight did extremely well. The DTW flight also as it connected with the International bank.

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

From what I have heard, current delivery estimate is either AUG 18 or NOV 18. I think economy will be 2-3 seating

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

Wait...what? How does that work? DL has to pay Bombardier more if they utilize the aircraft's full range? I'm not clear on the concept here.

Probably means that DL went for a cheaper paper derated (lower MTOW) version, and they will have to pay BBD to get it certified for max MTOW to use it for max capability if desired.

cvgComair wrote:

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

From what I have heard, current delivery estimate is either AUG 18 or NOV 18. I think economy will be 2-3 seating

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

Wait...what? How does that work? DL has to pay Bombardier more if they utilize the aircraft's full range? I'm not clear on the concept here.

Yep, DL never intended the CSeries to open up these long/thin routes everyone has been talking about. That is a bad use of new (and expensive aircraft), thin margin routes are not going to cover the cost of new planes. This plan allows them to acquire the airplanes for a lower cost and put them on the routes to increase capacity without going up to larger mainline aircraft. Routes like LGA-CVG/RDU/ORD/etc and LAX-SFO/LAS/PHX/etc are where the aircraft is going to be operating, replacing CR9/E175's, which can replace CR7/E170's on other routes, which can replace CR2's.

Great points. The CS300s might go on the longer routes, but the CS100, as mentioned above is going to stay "regional". Across the board DL is upsizing their fleet, with many 739s and A321s to come, those are the planes for the longer routes. CASM down RSM potential up. CS100 frees up CR9s/E175s to keep replacing the smaller CRJ/ERJs.

They are sticking to their original plans route wise, which was originally LGA based first and LAX after that, with DFW being the bridge between the two.

Cseries training is tentatively starting up again for the FAs the 2nd full week in March. Delivery dates are still TDB, but looks to be in the August timeframe.

MD-88s are to be consolidated to ATL by late 2018. As the fleet starts to be drawn-down and centralize to ATL, the average stage length will continue to decrease. They will likely be regulated to short haul ATL flying where they still incur 5-6 cycles to day but shorter and shorter stage lengths. Not all that different than when DL drew down the DC-9-50 fleet a few years ago.

C-Series isn't necessarily going to be used to open-up new routes but will be used to optimize routes that are flown today on either case, that will replace a combination of CR9/E75/717/319 flying to reallocate these aircraft elsewhere in the network. ATL is going to continue to see increasing upgauging and that will also cascade around the network.

New routes are typically opened with the smallest capacity/lowest cost/lowest risk aircraft which in most case for domestic service is CR9/E75 service, except on longer-range flights which today is typically A319/A320/738 for mid-con and trans-con flights.

[quote="PSU.DTW.SCE"]MD-88s are to be consolidated to ATL by late 2018. As the fleet starts to be drawn-down and centralize to ATL, the average stage length will continue to decrease. They will likely be regulated to short haul ATL flying where they still incur 5-6 cycles to day but shorter and shorter stage lengths. Not all that different than when DL drew down the DC-9-50 fleet a few years ago.
Will DCA, LGA, and BOS stay as A3210/A321/B737?

NateGreat wrote:

So far, all we know about Delta’s C Series aircraft is that they will be based out of NYC and LAX. What routes and destinations could we expect to see the C Series operate, and will they fly to other Delta hubs like ATL, DTW, and MSP? What kind of seating configurations could we expect? 1-2 or 2-2 in First? 2-3/3-2 or 3-3 in Economy? Could we expect Comfort+? PTVs or no PTVs? Mood lighting or no mood lighting? Finally, when can we expect the first delivery and inaugural flight? Let me know what you guys think.

They will have PTVs. Actually the CS will be the first aircraft in the fleet to have wireless PTVs. Basically a iPad in the seat connected to a server.

IIRC it will be a 2-2 and 2-3 aircraft.

jubguy3 wrote:

The initial bases will be LGA and LAX, with additional bases being added in existing MD-80/90 bases. Does anyone have a comprehensive overview of DL's MD80/90 bases?

technically its NYC. JFK will see some rotations as well as LGA.

My money is on SEA or ATL as the third base.

Midwestindy wrote:

From what I have heard, current delivery estimate is either AUG 18 or NOV 18. I think economy will be 2-3 seating

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

"The only aircraft deal that Bombardier landed with a major US customer is with Delta Air Lines, which was looking for a 100-seat aircraft with a 1,000nm range and has agreed to buy 75 CS100 aircraft with options for another 50 aircraft. This is worthy of a critical look for more than one reason.
Boeing has accused Bombardier of dumping the C Series aircraft on the US market at a price that does not cover the production costs and has asked for an 80% tariff. What Boeing does not seem to take into account is the fact that the contract between Bombardier and Delta Air Lines is tailored as the airline has been looking into acquiring an aircraft the size of an MD-88 and regional range. This means that there are some specific properties of the C Series aircraft that Delta Air Lines is not interested in but that are incorporated in the base market value of the aircraft. To offset that, Bombardier has given additional discounts next to standard discounts and customary discounts for early adopters."

All that means, is that this will be a regional aircraft so expect it to be flying routes that are currently serviced by the E175 and CR9 rather than transcontinental routes

jubguy3 wrote:

The initial bases will be LGA and LAX, with additional bases being added in existing MD-80/90 bases. Does anyone have a comprehensive overview of DL's MD80/90 bases?

This is from 2017, so I don't know how up-to-date it is, others can probably paint a more up-to-date picture

ATL
777, 330, 76, 7ER, 737, 320, M88/90, 717

DTW
747, 777, 350, 330, 7ER, 737, 320, 717

MSP
7ER, 737, 320, M88/90

NYC
330, 76, 7ER, 737, 320, 717

SLC
7ER, 73N, 320

LAX.
777, 7ER, 737, 717.

SEA
330, 7ER, 737

CVG
737

All MD88s are being moved to ATL anyway this summer...

FWIW 1,000 miles is off a tad. Its actually more like 1,900nm.

as for pilots bases.

ATL
777, 765, 7ER, 73N, 717, M88, 320, 330

DTW
777, 7ER, 73N, 717, 320, 330, 350

MSP
7ER, 73N, M88, 320

NYC
765, 7ER, 73N, 717, 320, 330. (fairly sure they finally closed NYC M88)

SLC
7ER, 73N, 320

LAX
777, 7ER, 73N, 717

SEA
7ER, 73N, 330

CVG
73N

Expect the LAX and SEA 320 in the nearish future.

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

From what I have heard, current delivery estimate is either AUG 18 or NOV 18. I think economy will be 2-3 seating

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

Wait...what? How does that work? DL has to pay Bombardier more if they utilize the aircraft's full range? I'm not clear on the concept here.

Delta isn't buying the full MTOW or full engine thrust options from BBD/Pratt. To add thrust or MTOW they would have to pay the OEM for that.

FWIW very few airplanes in the Delta fleet are full MTOW/engine thrust. The only ones I can think of is the 739 and 777ERs. I can't remember if the 321 have the highest MTOW option or not. They do have the highest thrust option on the CFM56-5Bs though.

NateGreat wrote:

This is from 2017, so I don't know how up-to-date it is, others can probably paint a more up-to-date picture

ATL
777, 330, 76, 7ER, 737, 320, M88/90, 717

DTW
747, 777, 350, 330, 7ER, 737, 320, 717

MSP
7ER, 737, 320, M88/90

NYC
330, 76, 7ER, 737, 320, 717

SLC
7ER, 73N, 320

LAX.
777, 7ER, 737, 717.

SEA
330, 7ER, 737

CVG
737

All MD88s are being moved to ATL anyway this summer...

Any idea where the A330-900neo bases will be? ATL? JFK? SEA?[/quote]
The 330NEOs will share a crews with the 330CEO fleet. So they will probably rotate around much like the 333s with GEs do.

FWIW Delta doesn't base airplanes anywhere. They have pilot bases and maintenance bases. Airplanes can free flow through the system as needs.

jubguy3 wrote:

NateGreat wrote:

Any idea where the A330-900neo bases will be? ATL? JFK? SEA?

Presumably where existing 330 bases are already, so SEA, NYC, DTW, and ATL will be initial bases. They will also be replacing 763ERs slowly if I understand correctly, so SLC and MSP may also be 33N bases. Obviously 25 aircraft aren't going to be stretched between 6 hubs so they might allocate 33Ns to markets that would fully benefit from Delta One suites with premium capacity and move 330s into markets that have existing wide-bodies being replaced that can hold off for the Delta One suite upgrades.

unlikely the 339 shows up much at MSP and unlikely the show up at all in SLC. Only 20 or so of the 763s will be replaced. I'd expect the Asian routes out of SEA to go 339 and TATL trips out of ATL, JFK and AMS.

LawAndOrder wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Wait...what? How does that work? DL has to pay Bombardier more if they utilize the aircraft's full range? I'm not clear on the concept here.

Yep, DL never intended the CSeries to open up these long/thin routes everyone has been talking about. That is a bad use of new (and expensive aircraft), thin margin routes are not going to cover the cost of new planes. This plan allows them to acquire the airplanes for a lower cost and put them on the routes to increase capacity without going up to larger mainline aircraft. Routes like LGA-CVG/RDU/ORD/etc and LAX-SFO/LAS/PHX/etc are where the aircraft is going to be operating, replacing CR9/E175's, which can replace CR7/E170's on other routes, which can replace CR2's.

I think it will take the place of longer regional routes. If flights like lax sfo make it, I would imagine it would b for utilization. I could see lga ord

The CS will see plenty of short haul LAX routes. The plan is to replace the 717 flying out west with CS aircraft. LAX-SFO for example sees a large amount of 717 flying.

The ideas of LAX-JAX, RIC and BUF are all pipe dreams. Other than possibility opening up ORD from LAX, the CS will cover existing routes.

airzona11 wrote:

cvgComair wrote:

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Wait...what? How does that work? DL has to pay Bombardier more if they utilize the aircraft's full range? I'm not clear on the concept here.

Yep, DL never intended the CSeries to open up these long/thin routes everyone has been talking about. That is a bad use of new (and expensive aircraft), thin margin routes are not going to cover the cost of new planes. This plan allows them to acquire the airplanes for a lower cost and put them on the routes to increase capacity without going up to larger mainline aircraft. Routes like LGA-CVG/RDU/ORD/etc and LAX-SFO/LAS/PHX/etc are where the aircraft is going to be operating, replacing CR9/E175's, which can replace CR7/E170's on other routes, which can replace CR2's.

Great points. The CS300s might go on the longer routes, but the CS100, as mentioned above is going to stay "regional". Across the board DL is upsizing their fleet, with many 739s and A321s to come, those are the planes for the longer routes. CASM down RSM potential up. CS100 frees up CR9s/E175s to keep replacing the smaller CRJ/ERJs.

which is exactly what Delta management has said from day one. The idea here is that a route like LAX-PHX, mostly (all?) E75s will go to the CS, the E75s will move to the core hubs (ATL, SLC, MSP, DTW) to replace 50 seat flying.

NateGreat wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

MD-88s are to be consolidated to ATL by late 2018. As the fleet starts to be drawn-down and centralize to ATL, the average stage length will continue to decrease. They will likely be regulated to short haul ATL flying where they still incur 5-6 cycles to day but shorter and shorter stage lengths. Not all that different than when DL drew down the DC-9-50 fleet a few years ago.
Will DCA, LGA, and BOS stay as A3210/A321/B737?

From ATL?
yes. its not like ATL is going to get a big influx of M88 capacity. The airplanes are going to start being parked in big numbers after this summer.

NateGreat wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

MD-88s are to be consolidated to ATL by late 2018. As the fleet starts to be drawn-down and centralize to ATL, the average stage length will continue to decrease. They will likely be regulated to short haul ATL flying where they still incur 5-6 cycles to day but shorter and shorter stage lengths. Not all that different than when DL drew down the DC-9-50 fleet a few years ago.

Will DCA, LGA, and BOS stay as A320/A321/B737?

Just so you know, you are erasing the end quote which breaks the quotes. You need to put [/quote] at the end of a quote statement, the forum will do it automatically so make sure to start your message after the end quote so it doesn't get mixed in.

The C-Series is mostly a 1:1 replacement for the existing MD-80 aircraft and possibly the MD-90 if Delta exercises it's options. They exist in the Delta fleet as the smallest mainline aircraft flown, which doesn't really impact the operational planning of larger Airbus and Boeing narrowbodies. Whether Delta moved around A32Xs and 737s is mostly dependent on the future narrowbody fleet that they have... as they move towards a more Airbus-dominant fleet (They have placed a lot of orders for 900ER and 321 narrowbodies so in the future when they order smaller aircraft like the A319neo or 73M... what they order in the future dictates what bases they will open and close), it makes sense for them to close one or two Boeing 737 bases as fleet numbers reduce and replace the capacity with A320s. Likewise, in all things fleet planning, it really is dynamic, so when Delta chooses to order more Boeing narrowbodies, they will expand and move stations to keep capacity even across the fleet.

I think that DCA and LGA will be adding a C series base based on what Ed Bastian has hinted at, and it seems like the third base will be ATL considering the large amount of MD80s operating there.

jubguy3 wrote:

The C-Series is mostly a 1:1 replacement for the existing MD-80 aircraft and possibly the MD-90 if Delta exercises it's options. They exist in the Delta fleet as the smallest mainline aircraft flown

B712 is the smallest, and the 737-700 and A319 are also smaller

Midwestindy wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

The C-Series is mostly a 1:1 replacement for the existing MD-80 aircraft and possibly the MD-90 if Delta exercises it's options. They exist in the Delta fleet as the smallest mainline aircraft flown

B712 is the smallest, and the 737-700 and A319 are also smaller

That was a mistake on my part I was mixing up the capacity of the B717 and the MD88s. In retrospect, it seems weird that they didn't go for the CS300 considering that it would match the size of MD88s more effectively. Maybe they will exercise their options?

NateGreat wrote:

So far, all we know about Delta’s C Series aircraft is that they will be based out of NYC and LAX. What routes and destinations could we expect to see the C Series operate, and will they fly to other Delta hubs like ATL, DTW, and MSP? What kind of seating configurations could we expect? 1-2 or 2-2 in First? 2-3/3-2 or 3-3 in Economy? Could we expect Comfort+? PTVs or no PTVs? Mood lighting or no mood lighting? Finally, when can we expect the first delivery and inaugural flight? Let me know what you guys think.

Where is the official announcement they are going to NYC and LAX?

JFK31R wrote:

Perhaps a stupid question, but Delta does plan on using the C-Series as a mainline aircraft, or will they be farmed out to Endeavor and the others?

Not stupid but the simple answer is they are too big for the scope clauses at mainline. Nothing can be flown bigger than 76 seats at a DCI carrier.

Perhaps a stupid question, but Delta does plan on using the C-Series as a mainline aircraft, or will they be farmed out to Endeavor and the others?

So with all these E-Jets transferring to the main hubs what is the chance routes like SLC-GTF-SLC will see E175 service by 2020? GTF-MSP was upgraded to an a319 during the summers so perhaps this route would be upgraded as well?

ilovelamp wrote:

NateGreat wrote:

So far, all we know about Delta’s C Series aircraft is that they will be based out of NYC and LAX. What routes and destinations could we expect to see the C Series operate, and will they fly to other Delta hubs like ATL, DTW, and MSP? What kind of seating configurations could we expect? 1-2 or 2-2 in First? 2-3/3-2 or 3-3 in Economy? Could we expect Comfort+? PTVs or no PTVs? Mood lighting or no mood lighting? Finally, when can we expect the first delivery and inaugural flight? Let me know what you guys think.

Where is the official announcement they are going to NYC and LAX?

Delta has not ever (to my knowledge) provided an announcement of pilot bases.

Having said that its one of the worlds worst secrets that LAX and NYC will be the first pilot bases for the airplanes. It has been talked about internally, by employees in public and even executives on earnings calls several times.

JFK31R wrote:

Perhaps a stupid question, but Delta does plan on using the C-Series as a mainline aircraft, or will they be farmed out to Endeavor and the others?

Airplane has to many seats and the MTOW is to hight for it to be a DCI aircraft.

Unlikely Europe where the mainline pilots allow 100 seaters to be outsourced, the only airline that could do that in the US is AS. (and possibly B6 because I don't believe they have a scope clause either? )

JFK31R wrote:

Perhaps a stupid question, but Delta does plan on using the C-Series as a mainline aircraft, or will they be farmed out to Endeavor and the others?

They will be mainline aircraft. They are too large for the scope clauses that regional carriers have.

deltal1011man wrote:

Unlikely Europe where the mainline pilots allow 100 seaters to be outsourced, the only airline that could do that in the US is AS. (and possibly B6 because I don't believe they have a scope clause either? )

Spirit also has no scope clause...

H3w1tt wrote:

So with all these E-Jets transferring to the main hubs what is the chance routes like SLC-GTF-SLC will see E175 service by 2020? GTF-MSP was upgraded to an a319 during the summers so perhaps this route would be upgraded as well?

I would say it's likely, DL and the SLC airport management have been trying to upgauge as many flights as possible to reduce gate stress during the Terminal Development Project, and as a result many flights have already been upgauged out of SLC. SLC is the top destination out of Great Falls with 41k pax, so I would say E175 service seems entirely feasible, if maybe at a reduced frequency. But the C-Series has little to do with the movement of regional flying at this point because it is a mainline aircraft.

deltal1011man wrote:

ilovelamp wrote:

NateGreat wrote:

So far, all we know about Delta’s C Series aircraft is that they will be based out of NYC and LAX. What routes and destinations could we expect to see the C Series operate, and will they fly to other Delta hubs like ATL, DTW, and MSP? What kind of seating configurations could we expect? 1-2 or 2-2 in First? 2-3/3-2 or 3-3 in Economy? Could we expect Comfort+? PTVs or no PTVs? Mood lighting or no mood lighting? Finally, when can we expect the first delivery and inaugural flight? Let me know what you guys think.

Where is the official announcement they are going to NYC and LAX?

Delta has not ever (to my knowledge) provided an announcement of pilot bases.

Having said that its one of the worlds worst secrets that LAX and NYC will be the first pilot bases for the airplanes. It has been talked about internally, by employees in public and even executives on earnings calls several times.

My post was mostly rhetorical in that I know it hasn’t been announced officially. I just found it funny that’s being spoken about as if it's a given when Delta Networking won’t even know where they will be based until the last minute. Sure, some execs have stated those places publicly but that’s not the official word.

Midwestindy wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

The C-Series is mostly a 1:1 replacement for the existing MD-80 aircraft and possibly the MD-90 if Delta exercises it's options. They exist in the Delta fleet as the smallest mainline aircraft flown

B712 is the smallest, and the 737-700 and A319 are also smaller

Technically they may be smaller, but the CS will hold the least amount of pax at 109. 1 less than the 717. So it will in terms be the "smallest" A/C in our fleet.

cessna2 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

The C-Series is mostly a 1:1 replacement for the existing MD-80 aircraft and possibly the MD-90 if Delta exercises it's options. They exist in the Delta fleet as the smallest mainline aircraft flown

B712 is the smallest, and the 737-700 and A319 are also smaller

Technically they may be smaller, but the CS will hold the least amount of pax at 109. 1 less than the 717. So it will in terms be the "smallest" A/C in our fleet.

It was an error on my part corrected somewhere else in the thread considering the fleet replacement schedule at DL, I am surprised they didn't order 75 CS300 with an option for 50 CS100 considering that many will be replacing MD88s, effectively down gauging them.

ilovelamp wrote:

Where is the official announcement they are going to NYC and LAX?

Ed Bastian was quoted late last year by Business Insider (I believe) saying that the CSeries will be based in NYC, LAX and Texas...

ilovelamp wrote:

deltal1011man wrote:

ilovelamp wrote:

Where is the official announcement they are going to NYC and LAX?

Delta has not ever (to my knowledge) provided an announcement of pilot bases.

Having said that its one of the worlds worst secrets that LAX and NYC will be the first pilot bases for the airplanes. It has been talked about internally, by employees in public and even executives on earnings calls several times.

My post was mostly rhetorical in that I know it hasn’t been announced officially. I just found it funny that’s being spoken about as if it's a given when Delta Networking won’t even know where they will be based until the last minute. Sure, some execs have stated those places publicly but that’s not the official word.

Ummm, it is all but confirmed guys, and has been for a while....They even confirmed it to investors, the media, pilots, flight attendants, and probably the neighbors dog too. I'm not sure how much more they need to do to make it known that they will base the Cseries in NYC and LAX...It isn't like network just found out about these planes either, they have known about them for years....they aren't just now deciding what to do with them, lol.

cessna2 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

jubguy3 wrote:

The C-Series is mostly a 1:1 replacement for the existing MD-80 aircraft and possibly the MD-90 if Delta exercises it's options. They exist in the Delta fleet as the smallest mainline aircraft flown

B712 is the smallest, and the 737-700 and A319 are also smaller

Technically they may be smaller, but the CS will hold the least amount of pax at 109. 1 less than the 717. So it will in terms be the "smallest" A/C in our fleet.

I'm aware, we were discussing the current fleet, and the person I was quoting was saying the MD88 was smaller than the B717

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

From what I have heard, current delivery estimate is either AUG 18 or NOV 18. I think economy will be 2-3 seating

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

Wait...what? How does that work? DL has to pay Bombardier more if they utilize the aircraft's full range? I'm not clear on the concept here.

Greg May.
Senior Vice President of Fleet and Supply Chain Management at Delta Airlines.

On buying C Series:

I can't stress enough that when we began looking at our single-aisle replacement growth strategy in 2015 our focus was on reducing our 50-seat regions jets by up gauging to small gauge mainline aircraft. One of the highest priorities at the time was to find a small gauge aircraft, one with capacity definitely under 120 seats that met our mission profiles, including average route distances of under 1,000 nautical miles, not the 2900 nautical miles that have been defined today.
.....
In fact, our agreement is structured with maximum takeoff weight provisions that reflect our intended deployment plan to fly the aircraft, on average, on routes that are less than 1000 miles. If we exceed those averages, i.e., the plane needs to carry more fuel because it's flying longer distances, we're going to be required to pay Bombardier additional payments

Midwestindy wrote:

ilovelamp wrote:

deltal1011man wrote:

Delta has not ever (to my knowledge) provided an announcement of pilot bases.

Having said that its one of the worlds worst secrets that LAX and NYC will be the first pilot bases for the airplanes. It has been talked about internally, by employees in public and even executives on earnings calls several times.

My post was mostly rhetorical in that I know it hasn’t been announced officially. I just found it funny that’s being spoken about as if it's a given when Delta Networking won’t even know where they will be based until the last minute. Sure, some execs have stated those places publicly but that’s not the official word.

Ummm, it is all but confirmed guys, and has been for a while....They even confirmed it to investors, the media, pilots, flight attendants, and probably the neighbors dog too. I'm not sure how much more they need to do to make it known that they will base the Cseries in NYC and LAX...It isn't like network just found out about these planes either, they have known about them for years....they aren't just now deciding what to do with them, lol.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree with what the execs have said and for the most part those are the leading candidates for the first bases. However, despite the lead time to make the decision, Network has been known to make surprising and unforeseen strategic decisions. It's within their prerogative to do so. Pilots always say with regards to aircraft orders, “I won’t believe it until I’m sitting in it about to push back from that gate.” Meaning simply they know how much things change in this business and anything can happen. While I don’t have any insider information about this, just don’t be surprised if a curveball is thrown in there.

J is 2-2 and Y is 2-3 on all CSeries aircraft. I would assume DL would install PTV's but idk.

24Whiskey wrote:

ilovelamp wrote:

Where is the official announcement they are going to NYC and LAX?

Ed Bastian was quoted late last year by Business Insider (I believe) saying that the CSeries will be based in NYC, LAX and Texas...

To be more specific wasn't it Dallas?

https://thepointsguy.com/2017/08/ny-del ... cs100-jet/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... a-new-york

These were the articles quoting Glen Hauenstein saying "The first one is going to New York". Didn't specify JFK or LGA, and that flights could go to Dallas.

H3w1tt wrote:

So with all these E-Jets transferring to the main hubs what is the chance routes like SLC-GTF-SLC will see E175 service by 2020? GTF-MSP was upgraded to an a319 during the summers so perhaps this route would be upgraded as well?

SLC-GTF is a OO prorate route now. Unless that changes, it'll be served with CR2s.

NateGreat wrote:

So far, all we know about Delta’s C Series aircraft is that they will be based out of NYC and LAX. What routes and destinations could we expect to see the C Series operate, and will they fly to other Delta hubs like ATL, DTW, and MSP? What kind of seating configurations could we expect? 1-2 or 2-2 in First? 2-3/3-2 or 3-3 in Economy? Could we expect Comfort+? PTVs or no PTVs? Mood lighting or no mood lighting? Finally, when can we expect the first delivery and inaugural flight? Let me know what you guys think.

By "NYC" do we know if DL is referring to JFK, LGA, or EWR (probably not EWR, but just thought I'd put it out there...)

I'm still wondering if the CS100 may be the ticket to see DL bring back LGA-EYW. They flew it a while ago with the 737-700 and then again with the CR7, but seems like this would be a good fit for the CS100, especially considering it's short field performance.

FA9295 wrote:

NateGreat wrote:

So far, all we know about Delta’s C Series aircraft is that they will be based out of NYC and LAX. What routes and destinations could we expect to see the C Series operate, and will they fly to other Delta hubs like ATL, DTW, and MSP? What kind of seating configurations could we expect? 1-2 or 2-2 in First? 2-3/3-2 or 3-3 in Economy? Could we expect Comfort+? PTVs or no PTVs? Mood lighting or no mood lighting? Finally, when can we expect the first delivery and inaugural flight? Let me know what you guys think.

By "NYC" do we know if DL is referring to JFK, LGA, or EWR (probably not EWR, but just thought I'd put it out there...)

NYC internally for Delta means all three airports for crew members. Whether or not it’ll see all three will be up in there air for a while until the routes start to get finalized.

Midwestindy wrote:

ilovelamp wrote:

deltal1011man wrote:

Delta has not ever (to my knowledge) provided an announcement of pilot bases.

Having said that its one of the worlds worst secrets that LAX and NYC will be the first pilot bases for the airplanes. It has been talked about internally, by employees in public and even executives on earnings calls several times.

My post was mostly rhetorical in that I know it hasn’t been announced officially. I just found it funny that’s being spoken about as if it's a given when Delta Networking won’t even know where they will be based until the last minute. Sure, some execs have stated those places publicly but that’s not the official word.

Ummm, it is all but confirmed guys, and has been for a while....They even confirmed it to investors, the media, pilots, flight attendants, and probably the neighbors dog too. I'm not sure how much more they need to do to make it known that they will base the Cseries in NYC and LAX...It isn't like network just found out about these planes either, they have known about them for years....they aren't just now deciding what to do with them, lol.

cessna2 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

B712 is the smallest, and the 737-700 and A319 are also smaller

Technically they may be smaller, but the CS will hold the least amount of pax at 109. 1 less than the 717. So it will in terms be the "smallest" A/C in our fleet.

I'm aware, we were discussing the current fleet, and the person I was quoting was saying the MD88 was smaller than the B717

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

From what I have heard, current delivery estimate is either AUG 18 or NOV 18. I think economy will be 2-3 seating

"Parenthetically, the Delta testimony revealed that its transaction with BBD priced the CS100 as a 1,000-mile airplane. Should Delta begin using the aircraft on longer routes, additional monies will be paid to Bombardier. The CS100 has a range of more than 2,900nm."

Wait...what? How does that work? DL has to pay Bombardier more if they utilize the aircraft's full range? I'm not clear on the concept here.

Greg May.
Senior Vice President of Fleet and Supply Chain Management at Delta Airlines.

On buying C Series:

I can't stress enough that when we began looking at our single-aisle replacement growth strategy in 2015 our focus was on reducing our 50-seat regions jets by up gauging to small gauge mainline aircraft. One of the highest priorities at the time was to find a small gauge aircraft, one with capacity definitely under 120 seats that met our mission profiles, including average route distances of under 1,000 nautical miles, not the 2900 nautical miles that have been defined today.
.....
In fact, our agreement is structured with maximum takeoff weight provisions that reflect our intended deployment plan to fly the aircraft, on average, on routes that are less than 1000 miles. If we exceed those averages, i.e., the plane needs to carry more fuel because it's flying longer distances, we're going to be required to pay Bombardier additional payments

The initial 2 route planned or that has been communicated to the media are over 1000 miles. But I suppose you combine them with some short haul "shuttle like" markets you can get to under a 1000 average stage.

I was told "mid-2018" by a Delta representative...

Midwestindy wrote:

In fact, our agreement is structured with maximum takeoff weight provisions that reflect our intended deployment plan to fly the aircraft, on average, on routes that are less than 1000 miles. If we exceed those averages, i.e., the plane needs to carry more fuel because it's flying longer distances, we're going to be required to pay Bombardier additional payments

It baffles me why DL would limit the capability of their investment. Use airplane as you see fit but don't limit its capabilities. As others have stated this makes the CS100 at DL a glorified regional jet. A jet capable of 3,000+ nm range and you are limiting it to a 1/3 of that to save a couple pennies just doesn't make sense to me.

While there is no official statement from Delta that the C series are direct replacement of their 717s , it’s quite obvious that would be the case if the C Series are going to be based in LAX, where currently the 7171s are stationed. I would expect them to use the C series to replace those 717 routes and retire the much older ones, or possibly restation the 717s elsewhere like SEA or SLC maybe until they decide to phase them out. Again there hasn’t been much word about retiring the 717s from the DL fleet, but like AA, DL looks to accelerate the retirement of many of the aging MD80s/90s and we can only speculate the near end of the 717-200s once the C series begin revenue service. DL can benefit in utilizing these brand new, much efficient C series against some of their strong competitors in the W Coast-S West, Mid West US, and Pacific N.W. (including Alaska) if DL falls through and stations them in LAX. They're well suited to go against Alaska Airlines, Southwest, and JetBlue, penetrating some of their competitors strongholds like HOU, DFW against AA, PHX, PDX, DEN against UA, where DL usually rotates equipments between regional DbA carriers E175/CRJ900 and their own metal 717-200s out LAX. During summer time some of these E175s and 717s have restrictions (Elevation/Heat/Performance limitations etc.) , so the range and performance of the C series maybe the equipment that DL needs, aside from up gauging their capacity to hold firm on DL’s network (in the W Coast to SW and W Coast to MW markets), and get in to those hubs of it's competitors. DL is always testing markets utilizing their DbA carriers and then upgauge them with their own mainline metal. We saw this when DL began the DL Shuttle in the W Coast at LAX. Now it has swapped half of those DL Shuttles from DbA E175s to 717s. We are seeing this now when we look at the LAX-TX routes, some are interchangeably operated by a E175 and or 717. I’m certain that the C series will be deployed to take over most of the 717 missions out of LAX and also to relieve/upgauge some of the E175 missions.

I came from a DL DbA carrier and I think this would make sense as an example routing or missions on these C Series in LAX:

Replace DbA E175s or alternate C Series on the following routes, if not totally replace the E175s with the C Series on;

LAX-SAT
LAX-AUS
LAX-DEN
LAX-IAH
LAX-HOU ( This would totally annoy WN even more as DL and WN are locked in a legal battle regarding gates there, WN feeling threatened DL can bring in a bigger aircraft.)

Remember that DL hasn’t had a big presence in Texas in a long time. Right now most of the LAX operations to TX is mainly E175 and some 717 operated flights. DL had stressed that they would like to gain more presence in Texas. Come summer time, some of those 717s reach their operating limitations and DL has had to scale down 717 LAX to TX missions, noticed that they either increase more E175s and reassign the 717s to other missions. Same goes to LAX-DEN/SLC as elevation during summer time limits its operational performance here and there. This would be ideal against AA, WN, and UA as this aircraft would be able to penetrate some of those markets in competitor hubs/home turf, and where they are stronger in presence than DL.

I would think their missions are well suited like this for example, and this is all existing current DL network (either or both interchangeably operated by a DbA E175 or mainline DL 717/A319/737) :

LAX-SAT-MSP
LAX-DFW-DTW
LAX-IAH-SLC
LAX-IAH-SEA
LAX-YVR-MSP
LAX-PDX-SFO/SEA
LAX-SEA-FAI
LAX-MTY-DTW/MSP
LAX-SEA-SFO
LAX-SEA-ANC
LAX-SFO-SLC
LAX-SFO-LAS
LAX-PHX-DTW
LAX-PHX-MSP
LAX-OAK-LAS
LAX-SJC-LAS-SEA/SLC/LAX/MSP/DTW

But also not excluding that they can be utilized for downgauged hub to hub missions.
Possibly alternate A319/A320/737/ daily and deploy interchangeably LAX-SLC. Remember that DL is Hub-Spoke when it comes to their network model. Connecting the W Coast and MidWest directly from W Coast DL hubs, some other routings maybe;

LAX-SLC-FAR
LAX-SLC-DEN
LAX-SLC-GPI
LAX-SLC-CVG
LAX-SFO-BOI
LAX-SLC-GTF
LAX-SEA-IDA
LAX-SLC-IDA
LAX-SLC-RAP
LAX-OMA-SLC/MSP/DTW/SEA
LAX-IDA-SEA
LAX-MCI-MSP/SEA/SLC/DTW
etc.

If DL wanted to be creative and think outside of the box, compete against LCC like Frontier or Allegiant. I think the C series maybe doing something like LAX-LAS-CVG-MSP, or LAX-LAS-DEN-MSP or something, ideal for the C series, but who knows? The C series are fantastic for DL because it allows them to use a smaller aircraft of great range and capabilities that doesn’t require a huge plane like a 319/320 or a smaller E175 against it’s competitors and doesn’t have the current range limitations of the 717s. I do hope they also consider the C 300 version.

Configuration wise, I think first 4 rows will be DL One in 1-2 configuration (12 DL One seats), followed by 2-3 for DL Y+ (maybe 3 or 4 rows of Y+) , and the rest Y of course. Wether or not DL decides to equipment these C series with individual PTVS or not, not sure. I wouldn't be surprised if they roll them out without PTVs, but instead every seat has individual powercharger/usb ports to connect devices. Even mainline LX did not include individual PTVs on any of their C series and from the looks of KE's C series, they also did not include any individual PTVs on theirs.

Midwestindy wrote:

.... with capacity definitely under 120 seats that met our mission profiles, including average route distances of under 1,000 nautical miles, not the 2900 nautical miles that have been defined today.
.....
In fact, our agreement is structured with maximum takeoff weight provisions that reflect our intended deployment plan to fly the aircraft, on average, on routes that are less than 1000 miles. If we exceed those averages, i.e., the plane needs to carry more fuel because it's flying longer distances, we're going to be required to pay Bombardier additional payments

A fleet average of 1,000 miles leaves a lot of wiggle room for longer routes to be used.

So, does that mean that once the MD-88/90 are all phased out, the C Series will be replacing the MD-88/90 out of New York and LA, while the A321 will be replacing the MD-88/90 out of Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis, etc?

NateGreat wrote:

So, does that mean that once the MD-88/90 are all phased out, the C Series will be replacing the MD-88/90 out of New York and LA, while the A321 will be replacing the MD-88/90 out of Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis, etc?

1. The MD88 aren't in NYC anymore
2. This is DL's strategy moving forward
50 seaters going away.
76 seaters taking over 50seater flying, with slightly less frequency.
110 seaters (CS) taking over 76 seater flying, with slightly less frequency.
160 seaters taking over 110 (717) and 149 (MD88) seater flying
180-90 seaters taking over 160 seater flying.