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itismarkc wrote:I just don't understand the attitude many posters have here regarding employees collectively bargaining to better their situation.
What would you rather?? Peoples wages staying the same forever?? Everyone living with ever increasing cost of living while their wages stay the same??
Honestly, a lot of people forget what the union movement has achieved for workers over the decades. Sure, it has its problems but you have to admit that big business isn't a glowing example of how things should be done either.
Just because other carriers pay their staff less does not mean Air France should. I do not want to live in a society which is in a constant race to the bottom.
jfk777 wrote:How can Air France have 10 unions to deal, why not one union for each job occupation ? Just for the sake of simplicity merging all these groups would be a good start.
jfk777 wrote:How can Air France have 10 unions to deal, why not one union for each job occupation ? Just for the sake of simplicity merging all these groups would be a good start.
janders wrote:While I am no major union sympathizer, I would never begrudge anyone exercising their rights. Employees have basic right to protest as a tool against their employers.
kalvado wrote:janders wrote:While I am no major union sympathizer, I would never begrudge anyone exercising their rights. Employees have basic right to protest as a tool against their employers.
Problem is that there are more than two sides here. There are also passengers, who end up being between a hammer and a hard place.
And any random passenger can easily have a lot to loose. And, at the same time, passengers are the ones who have little, if any, leverage once ticket is sold.
PatrickZ80 wrote:And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.
kitplane01 wrote:PatrickZ80 wrote:And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.
Is this true? Are Air France staff payed more than Lufthansa or BA?
flyingclrs727 wrote:kalvado wrote:janders wrote:While I am no major union sympathizer, I would never begrudge anyone exercising their rights. Employees have basic right to protest as a tool against their employers.
Problem is that there are more than two sides here. There are also passengers, who end up being between a hammer and a hard place.
And any random passenger can easily have a lot to loose. And, at the same time, passengers are the ones who have little, if any, leverage once ticket is sold.
That's why I tell friends and relatives not to book flights on Air France. That way they aren't at risk if Air France unions decide to strike when they are supposed to be traveling
DWC wrote:flyingclrs727 wrote:kalvado wrote:Problem is that there are more than two sides here. There are also passengers, who end up being between a hammer and a hard place.
And any random passenger can easily have a lot to loose. And, at the same time, passengers are the ones who have little, if any, leverage once ticket is sold.
That's why I tell friends and relatives not to book flights on Air France. That way they aren't at risk if Air France unions decide to strike when they are supposed to be traveling
Silly, you may end sending them to an airline with an inferior product, plus airport & ground staff can strike anywhere else they go.
France & Europe are very strict & generous on consumer rights, AF are no MOL's Ryanair with no consideration for pax.
And just so you know, during one strike, not even AF's fault ( CDG's TC went on strike ), with all nearby hotels full, AF graciously placed us free of charge at Disneyland resorts : I thanked the TC guys for that opportunity to sleep in excellent american King Kong beds each the size of a pool & with excellent on-demand ground service.
PatrickZ80 wrote:And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.
flyingclrs727 wrote:Well if one must stay in Sky Team, KLM is a good option. Ryanair doesn't do connections. I'm not going to send friends and family on Ryanair when they need to make connections to fly between Europe and the US.
bigjku wrote:I am no expert but it seems like Air France is basically a state sanctioned monopoly. It has a huge majority of the passengers carried at least on what I could casually find. Certainly among French airlines on the year I pulled up it had 8-10 times the volume of anyone else.
My guess is they also get preferential access to slots at the airports that matter in France making it very hard for anyone to really compete with them even if they wanted to.
To me that kind of clouds the issue. It’s not a strike entirely against a private company. I am guessing in a lot of respects the passengers have no other choices.
Aesma wrote:However there are complications, for example AF has just announced losses for last year. The loss was caused by an exceptional charge linked to KL's pensions. French employees not getting profit sharing because of that would be unhappy.
OK, so I've read what is said differently than you mercure1. AF is saying a new profit sharing plan has already been voted on (with unions), giving almost 20% of profit to employees, and this is what will cause them to earn 2% more. So no raising the salaries at all.
PatrickZ80 wrote:And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.
DDR wrote:PatrickZ80 wrote:And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.
Unions literally exist so companies can't do what you just described.
Planeflyer wrote:It seems a tough situation. Employees are not eating enough and companies are not earning a consistent enough profit for the staff to see profit sharing as worthwhile.
Why is the business climate in such a state? What can be done to improve prospects?
I used to fly AF all the time prior to the 447 crash and always enjoyed the service. Heck the accent alone was a huge plus but what I’m trying to say is that the touch was always just right.
Planeflyer wrote:Let me see if I understand this. AF effectively has a monopoly type position in France which is hurting their ability to compete in the larger market.
Is this am accurate description of the situation?
If so, is their a will within France to fix it?
iseeyyc wrote:DDR wrote:PatrickZ80 wrote:And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.
Unions literally exist so companies can't do what you just described.
Right, the customers just go elsewhere and the company goes bankrupt. The striking crew are "replaced" by the crew of a more efficient airline. One can't strike back a monopoly position, regulated skies, preferential treatment, ie. all the things that gave AF an advantage and allowed them to pay such high rates in the first place. A strike is not a time machine.Planeflyer wrote:It seems a tough situation. Employees are not eating enough and companies are not earning a consistent enough profit for the staff to see profit sharing as worthwhile.
Why is the business climate in such a state? What can be done to improve prospects?
I used to fly AF all the time prior to the 447 crash and always enjoyed the service. Heck the accent alone was a huge plus but what I’m trying to say is that the touch was always just right.
Exactly, its a tough situation. Its a tough business, there is no easy solution. Striking is punishing the few customers that remain.
DWC wrote:You don't seem to know how unions work : for starters they do not belong to the airline but often to nationwide structures with sectorial federations. In France, unions are independent entities & workers are free to unite where they see fit, even launch their own union if need be.
bigjku wrote:I am no expert but it seems like Air France is basically a state sanctioned monopoly. It has a huge majority of the passengers carried at least on what I could casually find. Certainly among French airlines on the year I pulled up it had 8-10 times the volume of anyone else.
My guess is they also get preferential access to slots at the airports that matter in France making it very hard for anyone to really compete with them even if they wanted to.
To me that kind of clouds the issue. It’s not a strike entirely against a private company. I am guessing in a lot of respects the passengers have no other choices.
lightsaber wrote:AF is also disadvantaged by not having terminals that meet modern connecting convince, but that could be rectified by a good train a la DFW. They are also disadvantaged by a split hub. The era of transferring across a city for a connection ended 20 years ago.
PatrickZ80 wrote:And so they'll bring their own airline to bankrupcy. Air France staff is already heavily overpaid compared to other airlines and now they want even more money? I'd say everyone that goes on strike gets sacked and is being replaced by a cheaper new recruit, plenty of people that are willing to work for the wages the spoiled Air France crew thinks is too little.
DarthLobster wrote:DWC wrote:You don't seem to know how unions work : for starters they do not belong to the airline but often to nationwide structures with sectorial federations. In France, unions are independent entities & workers are free to unite where they see fit, even launch their own union if need be.
That's not how unions work everywhere else, so it isn't fair to say that someone doesn't know how they work when they work very different in one particular place...
ro1960 wrote:PatrickZ80 wrote:I don't know what field you work in, but just ask yourself what unions have done for your profession and maybe you'd have a different view of things.
Gingersnap wrote:Herein lies the problem, and this has been the same at my own aerospace employer.
Over the last few years, the company has taken up the stance that wage increases are not viable because of high costs, lower than average revenue stream etc. Yet in the years where said company sees record profits and massively increased revenue streams, they still refuse to rage wages or offer a pittance. Often in the UK (where I reside), most companies tend to meet in the middle so it's not often you hear of much in the way of strike action (outside of the bi-annual rail strikes).
Indeed my employer offered a pittance 1% payrise last year, which was resoundingly rejected by the union affiliated members of the workforce. So next up was a larger 5% increase with a tacked on clause that the union was no longer permitted to negotiate pay. You can imagine that was also rejected wholeheartedly. In the end we met in the middle after the word "strike" was murmured as we ended up with a 3% deal.
This may seem like a pointless back and forth, but due to employer's reluctance to keep wages in line with the "cost of living", often a couple of percent results in an effective pay cut for many. And it does become difficult to justify the salary of the chief executives in the 7 figures and rising, if you refuse to pay the average worker even half of what they by all rights should be getting to keep up with the rising cost of living.
So yes it causes a headache to management and customers are inconvenienced, but without the unions there would be no protection against rogue management who wish to squeeze every last penny out of their workforce at the smallest cost possible.