jfk777 wrote:

Things changed in the world but Airbus is not lways the better solution, for SAA a 250 seat long haul plane is better then a 300 seater. A 787-9 being smaller then an A350-900 would be better for SAA on their ultra long haul routes. SAA long hauls move 200 passengers from 5,000 to 8,000 miles, its doesn't need bigger planes.

The question is how the B787-9 performs at 5,500ft. Considering a mission like JNB-JFK at 6,925nm and JNB-HKG at 5,763nm the B789 might not be great with it's smaller wing and thrust compared to the A359. If the A343 and B77W have challenges on JNB-HKG in the summer, then the B787-9 has no chance. The A359 on the other hand has it's very big wing to compensate.

AFAIK no one operates the B787-9 out of JNB. Correct me if im wrong

scotron11 wrote:

AFAIK no one operates the B787-9 out of JNB. Correct me if im wrong

VS do JNBLHR, I flew on it in November and it was a very long take off run. I'm not a nervous flyer but I was looking outside towards the end and I don't think there was to much runway left.
QR use them somedays JNBDOH I don't think anyone else does at present. I think maybe ET did but they now use an A359 for the daytime flight and a 738 for the evening departure for JNBADD.

jfk777 wrote:

cv990Coronado wrote:

evanb wrote:

As long as the A359/A35K has a hot and high advantage over the B787 then this will be SAA's preference.

Exactly, the larger wing helps a lot here.



Firstly, unless the A321LR has massively improved hot and high performance over the ceo then it's a non-starter. Secondly, the challenge is that the routes where this idea might have promise, maybe JNB-LOS or JNB-ACC-ABJ, there is little benefit to be gained by upping frequency. The current departure schedules offer all the necessary domestic and regional connecting options. If higher frequency will increase unit cost but not increase yield then it'll be a poor move.

I agree, plus the fact that I think the cargo capacity is often needed which the A321LR would certainly lack.



Assuming that the A359/A35K is the backbone of the fleet, what routes would they utilize B777-9 on? I'm not sure it would be a big enough fleet to justify. They probably need at least 10x B777-8/9 to make it work. 2x daily LHR, 1x daily FRA ... where else?

With SAA's crew and maintenance so geared for Airbus products these days, a small fleet of Boeing's makes no sense. In fact with all the others things needing to fixed why introduce a completely different aircraft when you can obtain ones from Airbus which have a large degree of commonality.
I certainly miss the many good memories of flying in SAA's 747's & SPs but that was a different time. Boeing was the best and the longest ranged product available, things have changed in the world and at SAA.

Things changed in the world but Airbus is not lways the better solution, for SAA a 250 seat long haul plane is better then a 300 seater. A 787-9 being smaller then an A350-900 would be better for SAA on their ultra long haul routes. SAA long hauls move 200 passengers from 5,000 to 8,000 miles, its doesn't need bigger planes.

The 787-9 is not that much smaller than the A359 though. And the commonality of being able to introduce the A35K for the beefier routes is not to be forgotten.. As well as the hot/high advantage of the A350.

The President of the Republic of South Africa has just formally resigned. He will be replaced by another ANC person. Either this is salvation for the nation, or more of the same? Your guess is as good as mine.

cv990Coronado wrote:

scotron11 wrote:

AFAIK no one operates the B787-9 out of JNB. Correct me if im wrong

VS do JNBLHR, I flew on it in November and it was a very long take off run. I'm not a nervous flyer but I was looking outside towards the end and I don't think there was to much runway left.
QR use them somedays JNBDOH I don't think anyone else does at present. I think maybe ET did but they now use an A359 for the daytime flight and a 738 for the evening departure for JNBADD.

JNB-ADD 2187nm
JNB-LHR 4884nm
JNB-DOH 3358nm

And now ...

JNB-JFK 6925nm
JNB-HKG 5763nm

What happened to their CPT hub? I heard they used to fly long haul out of there and now, gone. Is it true they sold some slots for cash to BA on the LHRCPT segment? Sorry for the little knowledge I have, I was born in the 90s. All I remember before 2010 is the "jetsgosucks.ca" website.

As for their JNBLHR leg, I heard from a FRA manager loads aren't as good as your typical FRA and MUC routes since the UK isn't as "generous" on TWOV rules. This then affects their feed in and out of LHR.

jfk777 wrote:

[ BA rarely flies in a 744 after one taxied by accident into building at night about three years ago.

I doubt that is the reason BA don't fly the 744 in

speedbird52 wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

[ BA rarely flies in a 744 after one taxied by accident into building at night about three years ago.

I doubt that is the reason BA don't fly the 744 in

Yeah I thought that was a weird reply as well considering that British Airways have flown the Boeing 747 into Cape Town for decades with no prior incident!

JFK777 I take it that your aware of the facts and events leading upto that particular incident!

Nobody has mentioned the A330-900.

If 200-odd folks are SA's primary long haul clientele on any given route, what about that aircraft? How does the 332 do at present out of JNB?

Spiderguy252 wrote:

Nobody has mentioned the A330-900.

If 200-odd folks are SA's primary long haul clientele on any given route, what about that aircraft? How does the 332 do at present out of JNB?

The A332 and A333 are both limited to between 225t and 230t out of JNB. This will depend on temp and which runway is in use. This is a drop from a MTOW of 238t for the A332 and 242t for the A333. As someone who operates both types out of JNB, I very seldom see a RTOW of more than 230t. Having said that, SAA's A332's are configured with only 222 seats, so with 230t you can easily do a JNB-LHR (11h30min) with a full load.

LC1002368 wrote:

What happened to their CPT hub? I heard they used to fly long haul out of there and now, gone. Is it true they sold some slots for cash to BA on the LHRCPT segment? Sorry for the little knowledge I have, I was born in the 90s. All I remember before 2010 is the "jetsgosucks.ca" website.

I'm not sure CPT was ever really a hub. They certainly had a lot more flights to CPT a decade ago but it wasn't really a hub. The 3rd daily LHR slot pair that SAA used for CPT-LHR were sold to Singapore Airlines a few years ago.

LC1002368 wrote:

As for their JNBLHR leg, I heard from a FRA manager loads aren't as good as your typical FRA and MUC routes since the UK isn't as "generous" on TWOV rules. This then affects their feed in and out of LHR.

Indeed, the TWOV rules are much more lenient in Shengen than the UK, which is one of the reasons that FRA and MUC have become SAA's major international hubs, but first and foremost, it's because they the biggest Star Alliance hubs in Europe.

T54A wrote:

The A332 and A333 are both limited to between 225t and 230t out of JNB. This will depend on temp and which runway is in use. This is a drop from a MTOW of 238t for the A332 and 242t for the A333. As someone who operates both types out of JNB, I very seldom see a RTOW of more than 230t. Having said that, SAA's A332's are configured with only 222 seats, so with 230t you can easily do a JNB-LHR (11h30min) with a full load.

At 20 degrees, an A343 takes a 15t penalty at JNB (260t versus MTOW of 275t), so that penalty on a A332 or A333 is very acceptable.

LC1002368 wrote:

What happened to their CPT hub? I heard they used to fly long haul out of there and now, gone. Is it true they sold some slots for cash to BA on the LHRCPT segment? Sorry for the little knowledge I have, I was born in the 90s. All I remember before 2010 is the "jetsgosucks.ca" website.

As for their JNBLHR leg, I heard from a FRA manager loads aren't as good as your typical FRA and MUC routes since the UK isn't as "generous" on TWOV rules. This then affects their feed in and out of LHR.

The SAA LHR slot for the CPT flight was sold to SQ as was mentioned, at least this time they are going to lease out the 2nd JNB slot. LHR slots are assets appricating ones in light of the constant LHR 3rd runway indecision.

There never was a CPT hub, SAA had a flight to FRA from CPT for a while and the JNBMIA flight went via CPT for mainly technical reasons. There were also CPTDURMRU flights In one of SAA's reorganisational moves everything was centred back to JNB which might well have made sense then. But, things could be different now regarding CPT. Firstly CPT has grown 50% in the last 10 years, more companies have moved here and the number of very affluent people has increased. Tourism has come out of the old apartheid days and increased enormously, Cape Town is at the top of the list. This plus the availability of smaller long-haul aircraft could change this and perhaps make a case for a small CPT SAA base.

Egerton wrote:

The President of the Republic of South Africa has just formally resigned. He will be replaced by another ANC person. Either this is salvation for the nation, or more of the same? Your guess is as good as mine.

The new president is a wealthy business man. I hope his talk about fighting corruption is more than just words as this would help the country as a whole to recovery and would help lift all other businesses and that would help SAA as well. I hope all the crony appointments will stop with not just SAA but the other enterprises like the electricity utility and the state broadcaster. I guess we will find out in the next few days/weeks on what could be expected when he starts announcing a new cabinet and appointments for the state run enterprises.

impressive moments that is happening SAA, it is incredible that only have 8 long distance destinations (Hong Kong, Washington DC, New York, Sao Paulo, Perth, London, Munich, Frankfurt) and have reduced frequencies, capacity and many more aircraft stopped , I do not understand yet how the deficient A340s do not come out

A daily flight to London Heathrow was lost, then British Airways and Virgin Atlantic significantly increase frequencies and capacity on this route


https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/278777/british-airways-expands-johannesburg-service-in-nw18/?highlight=british%20airways

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/277831/virgin-atlantic-doubles-johannesburg-service-in-nw18/?highlight=virgin%20atlantic%20johannesburg

Since the entry of LATAM Brazil they have reduced their frequencies in Brazil and now use a smaller plane
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/273762/latam-brasil-plans-johannesburg-increase-in-nw17/

Perth also stopped using the A340-600 and now uses an A330-200, and Qantas launches PER-JNB route
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/278015/qantas-files-one-way-johannesburg-perth-schedule-from-dec-2018/?highlight=QANTAS%20PERTH

Cathay Pacific one of the first routes with the new configuration of Boeing 777-300ER with more capacity is Johannesburg and they are looking to add more frequencies with the Airbus A350-900XWB but they added more a season service Hong Kong - Cape Town in this winter season
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/278382/cathay-pacific-outlines-re-configured-777-300-300er-service-from-june-2018/

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/277316/cathay-pacific-adds-seasonal-cape-town-service-in-nw18/

Also for the seventh consecutive year they lost again, it is impressive that SAA have such deficient airplanes in the area Kenya Airways owns Dreamliner, TAAG owns Boeing 777-300ER, Egyptair has in purchase Dreamliners and Boeing 777-300ER, I saw as a bad idea to rent those A330-300 new, SAA needs long-range aircraft such as Airbus A350-900, Boeing 787 and Boeing 777-300ER, it is sad as the JNB market and CPT was absorbed by the ME3, European and Ethiopian Airlines airlines, while SAA loses the fight and what their managers do is make everything worse

The proper question is what's happened to South Africa

RainerBoeing777 wrote:

I do not understand yet how the deficient A340s do not come out

If you think the A340s are at the centre of SAA's problem then you're dreaming.

RainerBoeing777 wrote:

Also for the seventh consecutive year they lost again, it is impressive that SAA have such deficient airplanes in the area Kenya Airways owns Dreamliner, TAAG owns Boeing 777-300ER, Egyptair has in purchase Dreamliners and Boeing 777-300ER, I saw as a bad idea to rent those A330-300 new, SAA needs long-range aircraft such as Airbus A350-900, Boeing 787 and Boeing 777-300ER, it is sad as the JNB market and CPT was absorbed by the ME3, European and Ethiopian Airlines airlines, while SAA loses the fight and what their managers do is make everything worse

Kenya Airways are in nearly as much trouble as SAA. TAAG have never made a profit making a loss in every year they're released any results. Egyptair have made a loss in every year since 2011. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?

Related to SAA because it's the regional operation (although it's a separate airline)---South African Express was grounded and its AOC was revoked because of safety deficiencies.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... oc-permits

The final fleet for South African Express was: 10 CRJ2s (5 operational), 2 CRJ7s, and 10 DH8D (6 operational). Airlink (controlled by Anglo American) doesn't operate any of the same equipment that SA Express did. I have to wonder how much more flying can be offloaded to Airlink, which is profitable.

The real problem for SA (Springbok) proper is too much government oversight. The ANC needs to bring in outsiders to run this airline and let it be run in a hands-off manner (which is what Ethiopia does with its state-owned airline, and as a result, ET is spreading its wings and actually can't get aircraft soon enough).

As for long-haul routes...is it necessary to fly to JFK daily, which likely requires 3 aircraft? Or can this be done 3x weekly to require just one A346, while the other JFK slots are leased out? (At JFK, MF uses one aircraft to fly FOC to JFK on a route that is about only 200 nmi shorter.) An airline like Hainan might be interested in leasing those slots (a red-eye arrival and late-morning departure).

Bobloblaw wrote:

The proper question is what's happened to South Africa

The ANC and everyone that voted for them in 1994. Much too fast of a transition and bad policies like BEE and Affirmative Action, essentially leaving (very) unqualified people in key positions and let corruption run it's course. Its snowballed and people keep voting for them, expecting a different outcome.

SAA never adapted to the new world of the ME3 and the rise of other African airlines. Ethiopian has taken a page from the ME3 and established quite a hub at ADD with a modern fleet of A350 and 787 aircraft. SAA should probably look into becoming part of a larger African airline group. Multiple country airlines are in Europe and Latin America, perhaps the time has come for African countries do do the same.

Slug71 wrote:

Bobloblaw wrote:

The proper question is what's happened to South Africa

The ANC and everyone that voted for them in 1994. Much too fast of a transition and bad policies like BEE and Affirmative Action, essentially leaving (very) unqualified people in key positions and let corruption run it's course. Its snowballed and people keep voting for them, expecting a different outcome.

Add to that the fact that running an airline profitability is a very difficult task. To do so with both hands tied by a semi-communist government which has become very corrupt and you can see why enormous losses occur. As someone said if SAA had free aircraft and free fuel they would still make a loss.

cv990Coronado wrote:

semi-communist government

As a South African I'd love to know how we have a semi-communist government? Since coming to power they've massively liberalized trade, removed industrial and agricultural subsidies, privatized several state-owned enterprises including the entire telecommunications sector, deregulated other sectors of the economy including aviation, liberalized the exchange rate system, removed most of the capital controls imposed by the nationalists, increased personal liberties and removed the oppressive social restrictions. How are they a semi-communist government?

Will South African Airways really make the hard choices to become profitable?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/11/reuters ... -cuts.html

* Loss-making carrier plans 1,000 to 1,500 job cuts - sources

* Cutting flights to London from twice to once a day - CEO

* Emblematic of woes of flag carriers and African air industry Aruo

SAA preps for redundancies; execs hire bodyguards

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... bodyguards

Ghana has engaged SAA to begin an ACC-LHR service. Its has been talked about a few times on airliners that SAA should route one of their LHR flights via Accra as a JNB-ACC-LHR. The ACC-IAD sector is already performing very well and this could also do well for South African. A much better way to utilize their Heathrow slot in my opinion.

http://mobile.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePag ... don-660215

juliuswong wrote:

SAA preps for redundancies; execs hire bodyguards

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... bodyguards

Isn't it pretty easy to get certified on a 380 if you already have a 330/340 certification? Seems like it could solve a few problems that way.

Morning arrival into LHR from ACC and afternoon departure back to ACC would work very well and would allow a range of connections via LHR T2

evanb wrote:

cv990Coronado wrote:

semi-communist government

As a South African I'd love to know how we have a semi-communist government? Since coming to power they've massively liberalized trade, removed industrial and agricultural subsidies, privatized several state-owned enterprises including the entire telecommunications sector, deregulated other sectors of the economy including aviation, liberalized the exchange rate system, removed most of the capital controls imposed by the nationalists, increased personal liberties and removed the oppressive social restrictions. How are they a semi-communist government?

CV990 is on the money. Its the elephant in the room evan....land appropriation without compensation. Straight out of the "Lenin Guide to Good Governance"