GordonCC
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Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:57 pm

Good morning. There are two unmarked 767s that I often see at Dulles Airport. Their bodies are light grey with dark grey and red stripe and dark grey tail.

Does anyone know who operates them?

Thank you
 
holzmann
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:59 pm

The CIA. No joke.

This has been asked many times. Consider using the search function.
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airtran737
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:27 pm

It’s not the CIA per se. They are government contracted flights for people who have a particular set of skills, and those skills are needed in Afghanistan.
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Raptormodeller
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:41 pm

JANET
A380 A330 A318 A320 A321 B737 B757 B767 B747 MD80 E185 E195
AF BA QF SQ HOP LT AA
 
Bricktop
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:42 pm

holzmann wrote:
The CIA. No joke.

This has been asked many times. Consider using the search function.

No need to be so snarky.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:38 pm

Registrations?
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MO11
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:09 pm

Omni Air. N423AX, N441AX
 
dcajet
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:41 pm

IAD has been host to a number of these "mysterious" 767s - mostly 200s - for a good number of years now. I remember them being there as far back as 2010 or even 2008. Some of them were with Vision Airlines, which was rumored to be connected with special ops on behalf of the US government.
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CapitalAvGeek
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:06 pm

Both aircraft (N423AX and N441AX) use callsign Omni. They seem to fly from Dulles to Bucharest and back. I have no idea why they fly this route but have always been curious. The two planes are always parked at R12 and R14 on the foxtrot line at Dulles. Also, I noticed that the two aircraft at Dulles have a different paint scheme than the rest of the Omni fleet. Below is a link to a picture of one of the 767-300s.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Omni-Air ... cyGA%3D%3D
 
MO11
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:09 pm

Here's a quick blog entry I found concerning these flights. Vision used 737-300s/400s prior to the 767s.

http://www.shannonwatch.org/blog/vision-airlines-back-air-bridge-war-business-shannon
 
a340crew
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:44 pm

CapitalAvGeek wrote:
Both aircraft (N423AX and N441AX) use callsign Omni. They seem to fly from Dulles to Bucharest and back. I have no idea why they fly this route but have always been curious. The two planes are always parked at R12 and R14 on the foxtrot line at Dulles. Also, I noticed that the two aircraft at Dulles have a different paint scheme than the rest of the Omni fleet. Below is a link to a picture of one of the 767-300s.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Omni-Air ... cyGA%3D%3D


Bucharest is used only as a fuel stop and flight deck crew change before continuing on to un-named locations.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:51 pm

Raptormodeller wrote:
JANET

No. Janet only flies 737-600s.
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Joshu
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:36 pm

Weren't these the routes formerly run by North American 767's?
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CFM565A1
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:31 pm

holzmann wrote:
The CIA. No joke.

This has been asked many times. Consider using the search function.


Relax bud, don’t like a question, consider using the ignore function in your brain.
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wjcandee
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:26 pm

Joshu wrote:
Weren't these the routes formerly run by North American 767's?


These are in fact former NA 767s.
 
MO11
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:27 pm

Joshu wrote:
Weren't these the routes formerly run by North American 767's?


These are the same airplanes.
 
SamTheGeek
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:53 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Joshu wrote:
Weren't these the routes formerly run by North American 767's?


These are in fact former NA 767s.

If I remember correctly, they formerly appeared in a 'sanitized' NA colors. No titles on the fuselage and certainly no massive US flag on the tail.

Lots of occasionally interesting planespotting at IAD... I've seen AN-124s, A400Ms, C-160s, and other exotic metal on Apron W. And of course, the SCA is unforgettable
 
stylo777
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:05 pm

a340crew wrote:
CapitalAvGeek wrote:
Both aircraft (N423AX and N441AX) use callsign Omni. They seem to fly from Dulles to Bucharest and back. I have no idea why they fly this route but have always been curious. The two planes are always parked at R12 and R14 on the foxtrot line at Dulles. Also, I noticed that the two aircraft at Dulles have a different paint scheme than the rest of the Omni fleet. Below is a link to a picture of one of the 767-300s.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Omni-Air ... cyGA%3D%3D


Bucharest is used only as a fuel stop and flight deck crew change before continuing on to un-named locations.

Just a technical question: how can they fly public to OTP, but unmarked to other destinations? Is there a button to "switch off" transmitter or something?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:19 pm

They don't "switch off" a transmitter. They operate under a flight number or just tail number that is "blocked" to the systems that report it to the general public. Some "Camber" (USTRANSCOM) flights aren't shown to the general public, but the positioning flights with an airline flight number might be.
 
GordonCC
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:01 am

If they are government aircraft why wouldnt they fly out of a military base?
 
CapitalAvGeek
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:54 am

GordonCC wrote:
If they are government aircraft why wouldnt they fly out of a military base?

These two aircraft might very well operate to a military base. In fact, it’s quite likely. FlightAware data from one of the aircraft shows that it goes to/from someplace in Afghanistan. I said earlier that it operates to OTP from IAD but later realized that OTP is just a fuel stop.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N423AX/history/80
 
7673mech
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:12 am

Raptormodeller wrote:
JANET


Omni, not JANET.
JANET sticks to their 737-600 in the desert.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:14 am

SamTheGeek wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Joshu wrote:
Weren't these the routes formerly run by North American 767's?


These are in fact former NA 767s.

If I remember correctly, they formerly appeared in a 'sanitized' NA colors. No titles on the fuselage and certainly no massive US flag on the tail.


When they were flying for North American (before North American shut down), they had the full livery, including the giant flag on the tail and the carrier name.

When flying initially for Omni, the North American name was painted over in white so the upper part of the fuse was untitled, and the tail was repainted blue -- i.e. without the flag.

Omni later had it repainted in the current livery, which just looks like a typical VIP private jet livery.
 
SamTheGeek
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:22 am

wjcandee wrote:
SamTheGeek wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

These are in fact former NA 767s.

If I remember correctly, they formerly appeared in a 'sanitized' NA colors. No titles on the fuselage and certainly no massive US flag on the tail.


When they were flying for North American (before North American shut down), they had the full livery, including the giant flag on the tail and the carrier name.

When flying initially for Omni, the North American name was painted over in white so the upper part of the fuse was untitled, and the tail was repainted blue -- i.e. without the flag.

Omni later had it repainted in the current livery, which just looks like a typical VIP private jet livery.


That probably explains why I had such difficulty finding out who owned them when I first noticed them.
 
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Joshu
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:18 am

wjcandee wrote:
SamTheGeek wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

These are in fact former NA 767s.

If I remember correctly, they formerly appeared in a 'sanitized' NA colors. No titles on the fuselage and certainly no massive US flag on the tail.


When they were flying for North American (before North American shut down), they had the full livery, including the giant flag on the tail and the carrier name.

When flying initially for Omni, the North American name was painted over in white so the upper part of the fuse was untitled, and the tail was repainted blue -- i.e. without the flag.

Omni later had it repainted in the current livery, which just looks like a typical VIP private jet livery.


No, at least one plane had the giant American flag removed for secret international flights. I saw it a few times at BWI and IAD.
Washington-Baltimore Spotters Group
 
wjcandee
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:20 am

Joshu wrote:
No, at least one plane had the giant American flag removed for secret international flights. I saw it a few times at BWI and IAD.


I'm not sure I think it's very polite to begin responses with NO, but I guess it's not atypical for many a.net threads.

That said, you're correct that in the waning days of North American, when all they had left that was generating cash was their Dulles flying, they had painted out the brand name and the tail on those two Dulles-based aircraft. I thought that was done post-North American, but it wasn't. North American's last owner out of bankruptcy made a deal in like April 2014 to sell the Dulles flying assets to Omni, who was in a position to quickly step in and pick it up. Omni flew those aircraft in the redacted NA livery for a while, then repainted them.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:02 am

SamTheGeek wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Joshu wrote:
Weren't these the routes formerly run by North American 767's?


These are in fact former NA 767s.

If I remember correctly, they formerly appeared in a 'sanitized' NA colors. No titles on the fuselage and certainly no massive US flag on the tail.

Lots of occasionally interesting planespotting at IAD... I've seen AN-124s, A400Ms, C-160s, and other exotic metal on Apron W. And of course, the SCA is unforgettable

IAD is my favorite airport in the US for exotic airlines/types (never been to JFK). I love seeing a SA A346 next to a Saudia 777 next to an AA MD80.

The coolest thing I saw there was The Gambia's IL-62. It was my first try me seeing a Gambian plane, a foreign head of state plane, and an IL-62; needless to say I did a quadruple take. That day was also my first real First Class experience, first ride on a 763, first time in IAD, and concluded my first trip to Amsterdam. It was a good day. :smile:
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Veigar
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:20 am

Are they as secretive as the Janet airplanes that are based out here in Vegas? Omni also has 767s that sit out here, so this is a really weird find indeed.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:40 am

Veigar wrote:
Are they as secretive as the Janet airplanes that are based out here in Vegas? Omni also has 767s that sit out here, so this is a really weird find indeed.


Omni does, among other things, charter Hawaii flights to Vegas, so that's what you're likely seeing at LAS.

The Janet flights fly directly from a special terminal at LAS to a fenced, gated, guarded, Top Secret research facility in the middle of the desert, and all passengers are employees at that facility. The aircraft are owned by the Air Force. The flights are operated by a defense contractor which specializes in all sorts of top-secret stuff, and its staff likely has certain clearances. (Originally, EG&G, which was renamed after it was folded into a significant technology defense/government contractor.) The whole Janet operation is out in the open, but what goes on at the destination isn't. The flights provide operational security.

The mission of the Omni flights isn't generally known, but it appears to be flown by standard Omni crews on aircraft owned by Omni. Perhaps the crews have certain clearances. But it is organized in perhaps a less "secretive" way.
 
SamTheGeek
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:55 am

Veigar wrote:
Are they as secretive as the Janet airplanes that are based out here in Vegas? Omni also has 767s that sit out here, so this is a really weird find indeed.

In some ways, yes, if not more so. While the origin, destination, purpose, and passengers of Janet are effectively 'known', only the origin is known for these flights. One is effectively an open secret, while the other is still not really talked about. Even the organization that charters these flights is a mystery, though the proximity of the CIA's secondary campus is perhaps a clue.

wjcandee wrote:
The flights are operated by a defense contractor which specializes in all sorts of top-secret stuff, and its staff likely has certain clearances.

The job descriptions of the pilots and flight attendants specifically state that they prefer applicants who have current TS/SCI clearances, and that the ability to hold a TS/SCI clearance is a must.

wjcandee wrote:
The mission of the Omni flights isn't generally known, but it appears to be flown by standard Omni crews on aircraft owned by Omni. Perhaps the crews have certain clearances. But it is organized in perhaps a less "secretive" way.

I'd disagree that they're less secretive — Janet has been an open secret for years but AFAICT there still isn't a single verified answer for where these planes land.
 
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Veigar
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:24 am

This is weird. Why does it say that N441AX is owned by the Wells Fargo Bank, while N423AX is owned by Omni Aviation?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:03 am

Veigar wrote:
This is weird. Why does it say that N441AX is owned by the Wells Fargo Bank, while N423AX is owned by Omni Aviation?


The aircraft isn't owned by Wells Fargo. The trust department of that bank, and of several others, specialize in acting as the "trustee" in various investment and financing arrangments. Back in the day, numerous aircraft finance-leased to World Airways would show in the FAA database as being registered to Wells Fargo or a similar bank. Some of those were actually owned by finance vehicles of Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance, and others were owned by finance vehicles funded by the Walt Disney Company. That's right -- Disney owned MD11s. Not for themselves, but rather as an investment of their cash.
 
COSPN
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:19 am

Janet’ flies from KLAS to KXTA. It’s well known
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:22 am

... as Area 51.
 
cwa2toa
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:55 am

Janet also goes to Tonopah and Edwards. My husband saw them a couple of times when he worked at Pt Mugu. We always try to get an airport view room when we go to LAS and I check flight aware when the JANET's take off. Nice ride to work.
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ei146
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Re: Unmarked 767s at IAD

Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:42 am

GordonCC wrote:
If they are government aircraft why wouldnt they fly out of a military base?


For the same reason they use charter airlines to operate the flights. Or you will sometimes find a lot of military personal (in full uniform) on regular flights between Europe and the USA. It is just cheaper and more convenient to use existing civil infrastructure and services.
Another example: The US armed forces operate flights using charter airlines to transport troops and staff between the homeland and the bases in the Middle East and Central Asia. There is no lack of military airfields in Germany operated by or accessable to US forces. Still they chose to operate a kind of a hub in LEJ for years (and probably still do) in a special area of the airport for connections between flights.

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