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DocLightning
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:15 am

It's getting awfully hard to be a Pratt fanboy.

They made a beautiful gearbox and seem to have forgotten that the rest of the engine has to work, too.
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Waterbomber
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:44 am

DocLightning wrote:
It's getting awfully hard to be a Pratt fanboy.

They made a beautiful gearbox and seem to have forgotten that the rest of the engine has to work, too.


At this point, one could start to question whether that gearbox is really as reliable as they claim.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:06 am

Waterbomber wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
It's getting awfully hard to be a Pratt fanboy.

They made a beautiful gearbox and seem to have forgotten that the rest of the engine has to work, too.


At this point, one could start to question whether that gearbox is really as reliable as they claim.


I have to think that would have shown up by now.
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keesje
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:03 pm

PW must watch out. I can see NEO operators that have yet to receive aircraft, or the bulk of aircraft, or A321LR's, scratching their heads and contacting CFM.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
bigjku
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:14 pm

keesje wrote:
PW must watch out. I can see NEO operators that have yet to receive aircraft, or the bulk of aircraft, or A321LR's, scratching their heads and contacting CFM.


CFM is already running behind schedule. I don’t see this as viable while maintaining production over the next few years. If there were a stampede to CFM engines and it became a 90-10 split for CFM Airbus would have to back off deliveries.
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:28 pm

DocLightning wrote:
It's getting awfully hard to be a Pratt fanboy.

They made a beautiful gearbox and seem to have forgotten that the rest of the engine has to work, too.


"Now we are going to reap profits" ( and reduce outlay :-) ahead of a new engines EIS was about the dumbest
thing to say and do.
What I wonder is this UTC's sole doing as P&W owner ( and the partners are silently irate bystanders )
or is this a jointly done clusterfu*k.
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texl1649
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:52 pm

The gearbox (made by GE owned avios) hasn’t been a problem at all. The whole program otherwise is basically a joke though. Small wonder Bombardier has only delivered one plane so far this year.

The 737 program will probably be the big winner here.
 
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par13del
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:23 pm

Ok, so the ETOPS certificaton of the engine was completed successfully, but when it was mass deployed issues started appearing, fine let's go with that. Now some are speculating that one of the options Airbus has is to ramp up the C-Series which has had no problems so far with its version of the engine and offer that a/c temporary, so my question following the logic, is it possible that the C-Series has had no problems because it is not being produced in the quantities as the A320 and when that is done the same set of issues will appear?

When we consider what ETOPS is all about, I also think something has to be done, I know that carriers have to be qualified as in the engineering resources demonstrating reliability, perhaps we need to revisit ETOPS certification to see if time deployed in operation is also a viable option, yes it would mean that the routes the a/c was designed for would have to wait for a month or two before being flown as intended, but the carriers may be able to use the time for additional training, just a thought.
 
JU241
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:53 pm

What about AK and the likes of FD etc.. ?
They are ETOPS too, are they all CFM-equipped?
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:57 pm

par13del wrote:
Now some are speculating that one of the options Airbus has is to ramp up the C-Series which has had no problems so far with its version of the engine and offer that a/c temporary, so my question following the logic, is it possible that the C-Series has had no problems because it is not being produced in the quantities as the A320 and when that is done the same set of issues will appear?



Correct me if I'm wrong but Airbus hasn't officially taken over the C-Series yet. I thought that wasn't due to happen until later this year.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:23 pm

AirLawyer wrote:
There is a problem with all PW1100G engines or with just specific ones?

(“The problem involves the knife-edge seal in the high-pressure compressor aft hub and can potentially appear on engines starting with serial number P770450. 33 aircraft, according to Airbus and the European Aviation Safety Agency”)?


Not all PW1100G engines, just a batch of 43 engines staring with serial number P770450.

Note that P&W delivered 374 GTF engines in 2017.
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flee
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:51 pm

JU241 wrote:
What about AK and the likes of FD etc.. ?
They are ETOPS too, are they all CFM-equipped?

Airasia's Neos are fitted with CFM LEAP-1A26.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:09 pm

par13del wrote:
Ok, so the ETOPS certificaton of the engine was completed successfully, but when it was mass deployed issues started appearing, fine let's go with that. Now some are speculating that one of the options Airbus has is to ramp up the C-Series which has had no problems so far with its version of the engine and offer that a/c temporary, so my question following the logic, is it possible that the C-Series has had no problems because it is not being produced in the quantities as the A320 and when that is done the same set of issues will appear?

When we consider what ETOPS is all about, I also think something has to be done, I know that carriers have to be qualified as in the engineering resources demonstrating reliability, perhaps we need to revisit ETOPS certification to see if time deployed in operation is also a viable option, yes it would mean that the routes the a/c was designed for would have to wait for a month or two before being flown as intended, but the carriers may be able to use the time for additional training, just a thought.


It would be fun and informative to have these questions answered. Speculation, the C engines are not as 'pushed' to the limit as are the ones for the NEO (?). Otherwise I doubt that Bomb. could increase production all that much.

I suspect ETOPS regulators are looking at all of this.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:16 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
par13del wrote:
Ok, so the ETOPS certificaton of the engine was completed successfully, but when it was mass deployed issues started appearing, fine let's go with that. Now some are speculating that one of the options Airbus has is to ramp up the C-Series which has had no problems so far with its version of the engine and offer that a/c temporary, so my question following the logic, is it possible that the C-Series has had no problems because it is not being produced in the quantities as the A320 and when that is done the same set of issues will appear?

When we consider what ETOPS is all about, I also think something has to be done, I know that carriers have to be qualified as in the engineering resources demonstrating reliability, perhaps we need to revisit ETOPS certification to see if time deployed in operation is also a viable option, yes it would mean that the routes the a/c was designed for would have to wait for a month or two before being flown as intended, but the carriers may be able to use the time for additional training, just a thought.


It would be fun and informative to have these questions answered. Speculation, the C engines are not as 'pushed' to the limit as are the ones for the NEO (?). Otherwise I doubt that Bomb. could increase production all that much.

I suspect ETOPS regulators are looking at all of this.


I started a thread a year ago wondering about the ETOPS certification would be affected by the inflight shutdowns

viewtopic.php?t=1353643

It took a year for the engine to lose its ETOPS certification. It makes me wondee how it got certified in the first place
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:21 pm

QXAS wrote:
My question: How on earth did this engine get ETOPS certified with its downright lousy reliability?


Given the fact that only some engines of a specific batch are affected suggests P&W changed some components after ETOPS certification. If it was a change in the manufacturing process of some specific components, it should be resolved rather quickly.

Newbiepilot wrote:
It took a year for the engine to lose its ETOPS certification. It makes me wondee how it got certified in the first place


The PW1100G engine did not lose ETOPS certification. That wouldn't make sense as only a selected number of engines are affected.

Out of the 512 GTF engines that have been shipped since 2016, some 43 are affected by this aft hub modification failure. That's 8.4% of all GTF engines, including the spare pool.

An AD has been issued to deal with those 43 engines, but ETOPS in still in place as per EASA type certificate.
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:24 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
Does anyone know what airline(s) will be the most affected by this issue? EASA EAD is basically grounding several planes and I wonder how hard could be the impact for the airline(s) with that planes out of the fleet for a while...


Indigo 6E with 32 A320NEO's is certainly hit hard. Most of their NEO's were forced to fly below 24000 feet due to the PW1100G issues and they have had multiple aircraft grounded for long periods. Just yesterday, They had to ground 3 more NEO's leading to cancellations.


Norwegian Air Shuttle, as an aircraft lessor, has also been affected. The 12 A320neos that it was supposed to have placed with HK Express should all have been delivered by now. In North America, Hawaiian Airlines and Volaris are likely to be affected as well, especially HA since short-term 767 sale-leaseback leases will expire soon.
 
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:31 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The 12 A320neos that it was supposed to have placed with HK Express should all have been delivered by now. In North America, Hawaiian


Highly unlikely as HK Express is currently not allowed to expand its fleet.
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:36 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
The 12 A320neos that it was supposed to have placed with HK Express should all have been delivered by now. In North America, Hawaiian


Highly unlikely as HK Express is currently not allowed to expand its fleet.


HNA has been shifting older HK Express planes to other HNA airlines to accept new deliveries (while keeping the fleet size the same), but two aircraft haven't been accepted yet.
 
N212R
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:39 pm

QXAS wrote:
My question: How on earth did this engine get ETOPS certified with its downright lousy reliability?
Allowing the PW1100G to fly ETOPS routes is just asking for 200 some odd people to go down over the ocean. Taking risks is one thing, but the PW1100G having ETOPS certification is playing with fire. Call me dramatic...


Call me cynical but the loss of 200 odd lives is a cypher to the politico-financial-industrial concerns of the major aviation players.
 
StTim
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:51 pm

N212R wrote:
QXAS wrote:
My question: How on earth did this engine get ETOPS certified with its downright lousy reliability?
Allowing the PW1100G to fly ETOPS routes is just asking for 200 some odd people to go down over the ocean. Taking risks is one thing, but the PW1100G having ETOPS certification is playing with fire. Call me dramatic...


Call me cynical but the loss of 200 odd lives is a cypher to the politico-financial-industrial concerns of the major aviation players.



I really am not sure what you are implying.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:05 pm

I know everyone here likes to scream and play the fainting maiden over all these engine issues at the moment, but if you are of a certain age cast your minds back.

Whenever there has been a step change in propulsion, it never goes as smoothly as the engineers try to get it. Pressures go up, seals have to work harder, materials have to become more and more exotic. Look at what happened with the first generation of high bypass turbofans, and then later on the next generation where every single engine type on the first 777s was a dog in one way or the other.

Guess what kiddies? Airlines kept the faith, compensation got paid, and it all worked out in the end because engineers were not hysterical chicken little types. Airlines equally can't walk out of contracts free and clear because their neighbour is having issues with their engines so CFM won't be getting those calls. Pratt needs to get it right and get it right they will.
 
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william
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:09 pm

Channex757 wrote:
I know everyone here likes to scream and play the fainting maiden over all these engine issues at the moment, but if you are of a certain age cast your minds back.

Whenever there has been a step change in propulsion, it never goes as smoothly as the engineers try to get it. Pressures go up, seals have to work harder, materials have to become more and more exotic. Look at what happened with the first generation of high bypass turbofans, and then later on the next generation where every single engine type on the first 777s was a dog in one way or the other.

Guess what kiddies? Airlines kept the faith, compensation got paid, and it all worked out in the end because engineers were not hysterical chicken little types. Airlines equally can't walk out of contracts free and clear because their neighbour is having issues with their engines so CFM won't be getting those calls. Pratt needs to get it right and get it right they will.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Spot on, however,does make one wander though what Bombardier, and Embraer are thinking at this moment about P&W. And imagine the teething problems RR's more complex Ultrafan is going to have.

The tech is sound, turboprops have using geared reduction for decades (though the gears seems not be the problem in this case) and P&W/RR have been working this technology since the 80s. As someone stated in a previous post, if this happened on a slower WB production, no one would hardly notice but on a platform that is produced at 60 a month, it will get headlines and everyone's attention.
Last edited by william on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:12 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Guess what kiddies? Airlines kept the faith, compensation got paid, and it all worked out in the end because engineers were not hysterical chicken little types. Airlines equally can't walk out of contracts free and clear because their neighbour is having issues with their engines so CFM won't be getting those calls. Pratt needs to get it right and get it right they will.

All that may be true, but reputations have suffered and so may future sales. If CFM needs to increase capacity, that will take time. Airbus doesn't have the capacity to keep on pumping out gliders, and it's not likely they will just work on LEAP frames either. I would be very annoyed at PW if I was Airbus.
 
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:38 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Guess what kiddies? Airlines kept the faith, compensation got paid, and it all worked out in the end because engineers were not hysterical chicken little types. Airlines equally can't walk out of contracts free and clear because their neighbour is having issues with their engines so CFM won't be getting those calls. Pratt needs to get it right and get it right they will.

All that may be true, but reputations have suffered and so may future sales. If CFM needs to increase capacity, that will take time. Airbus doesn't have the capacity to keep on pumping out gliders, and it's not likely they will just work on LEAP frames either. I would be very annoyed at PW if I was Airbus.


It may make airlines look again - but they also know that such advances do not come without the potential for teething problems (AAB excepted of course).
 
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william
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:38 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
StTim wrote:
william wrote:
New technologies will always have teething problems and one hopes PW gets their act together. For advancement and technology sake.

Which leads me to more questions, RR Ultrafan is even more complicated than this with movable fan blades, will RR get it right? There must be a reason GE has passed on this tech for now, even for the upcoming 797, is this tech not mature yet for jet engines (been used for decades in turboprops)?



The odd thing is that all these issues on the GTF appear to be related to the non gear (ie traditional) parts so should be well known. The killer for the GTF will be if the gear starts to have issues.


That's not exactly unrelated, I've made similar claims as william in the past.
For example take the shaft bend/bow. The shaft is directly connected to the sungear system, so it's part of the gear system.
What could be the variables versus non-GTF designs? Higher shaft RPM's of the GTF system and higher torque requirements.

Similarily, the bearing seal issue could be attributed to higher shaft RPM resulting in various issues.

For the high pressure compressor seal, what could be the variables versus non-GTF or previous designs?
It could be a higher overall pressure ratio of the GTF architecture putting unexpexted high strain on an assembly that was lazily copy-pasted from previous designs.
We can't know for sure, but we do know that there is a serious issue there.

A GTF engine is not a reliable/sustainable GTF engine until all variables have been accounted for.

Everyone says that the GTF engine has more margin for growth. That's an easy thing to say, but it doesn't make it true until we compare the final architecture of a GTF engine that is as reliable as an organically improved CFM Leap. If after all the issues are fixed, the PW1100G is finally as reliable as the CFM Leap but ends up with a fuel burn equivalent to the CFM56 due to the modifications scraping off the GTF fuel burn advantage little by little, then the gear technology would have to be written off as an unnecessary piece of technology...


EASA said aircraft with two affected engines can only operate three more cycles. It is also ordering extended-range, twin-engine operations (ETOPS) limitations. Airbus has issued an Alert Operators Transmission (AOT) providing instructions “to de-pair the affected engines and discontinue [ETOPS] for aircraft fitted with affected engines,” according to EASA.

EASA said the batch of affected engines begins with serial number P770450, but neither the aircraft manufacturer nor the agency disclosed what airlines are operating aircraft with affected engines.


http://atwonline.com/engines/easa-issue ... -directive

I find it weird that as big a company as UTC is struggling with all of these separate things. It proves that the engine was not mature at certification.
As for CFM and the Leap, I think that they have delivery delays of their own and it's not like they could increase production rates overnight.
Airbus has several options if the delay is expected to be long. They could revert to producing CEO's to the benefit of IAE and CFM, or invest in the ramp up the Cseries which seems surprisingly unaffected by the issues and could be offered as interim lift until the NEO's are reliable enough.
The latter would also help PW, which could move resources from the PW1100G to build more PW1500G's until the issues are all fixed.


That is the big question, just how much efficient in real world is the GTF over the LEAP? What is Airbus saying since it uses both powerplants?
 
N212R
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:43 pm

StTim wrote:
I really am not sure what you are implying.


The global air transport system and the demands of the ever-increasing many must be fed. The forces that motivate regulation against the forces that motivate profit. Which side of the compromise line will the axe fall?
 
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:46 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Guess what kiddies? Airlines kept the faith, compensation got paid, and it all worked out in the end because engineers were not hysterical chicken little types. Airlines equally can't walk out of contracts free and clear because their neighbour is having issues with their engines so CFM won't be getting those calls. Pratt needs to get it right and get it right they will.

All that may be true, but reputations have suffered and so may future sales. If CFM needs to increase capacity, that will take time. Airbus doesn't have the capacity to keep on pumping out gliders, and it's not likely they will just work on LEAP frames either. I would be very annoyed at PW if I was Airbus.

CFM can't match the propulsive efficiency of the PW1100G-JM series. That is the most important point today and every day going forward.

Once this is all put to bed then PW can start on PIPs that will potentially eclipse CFM, however the CFM will be the ideal shorthaul motor. The PW is the winner over longer stretches.

I'm convinced totally that this whole fiasco has been made a thousand times worse by Comedy Al and Qatar. If a grown-up had been the launch customer would the optics have been this bad?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:55 pm

The sky has not fallen, but PW has crashed, oops, strike that, rather skidded off the runway. Anyone think this is not a major problem? Think again, at least as bad as the 3 month battery delay of a certain other plane.
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kalvado
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:00 pm

Channex757 wrote:
I'm convinced totally that this whole fiasco has been made a thousand times worse by Comedy Al and Qatar. If a grown-up had been the launch customer would the optics have been this bad?

Optics of a large scale grounding will be bad no matter what.

Channex757 wrote:
Guess what kiddies? Airlines kept the faith, compensation got paid, and it all worked out in the end because engineers were not hysterical chicken little types. Airlines equally can't walk out of contracts free and clear because their neighbour is having issues with their engines so CFM won't be getting those calls. Pratt needs to get it right and get it right they will.

In the age of everything cut back to barebone, and a bit into the bone, such a problem can very well make a difference between program being profitable and unprofitable. 787 is a great plane... by now it is. But it is entirely possible last 787 will fly before program balance sheet turns black.
And this time, a narrowbody cash cow is affected...
What that means for the companies in longer term? I don't know. Maybe not much, maybe problems will be serious enough in a long run.
 
fsabo
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:02 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Guess what kiddies? Airlines kept the faith, compensation got paid, and it all worked out in the end because engineers were not hysterical chicken little types. Airlines equally can't walk out of contracts free and clear because their neighbour is having issues with their engines so CFM won't be getting those calls. Pratt needs to get it right and get it right they will.

All that may be true, but reputations have suffered and so may future sales. If CFM needs to increase capacity, that will take time. Airbus doesn't have the capacity to keep on pumping out gliders, and it's not likely they will just work on LEAP frames either. I would be very annoyed at PW if I was Airbus.

CFM can't match the propulsive efficiency of the PW1100G-JM series. That is the most important point today and every day going forward.

Once this is all put to bed then PW can start on PIPs that will potentially eclipse CFM, however the CFM will be the ideal shorthaul motor. The PW is the winner over longer stretches.

I'm convinced totally that this whole fiasco has been made a thousand times worse by Comedy Al and Qatar. If a grown-up had been the launch customer would the optics have been this bad?


Why will CFM be the ideal short haul motor. I would think the opposite.
 
trex8
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:04 pm

CS has its issues looks like Air Baltic has had to replace lots of engines
http://m.aviationweek.com/commercial-av ... y-improved
 
fsabo
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:10 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
QXAS wrote:
My question: How on earth did this engine get ETOPS certified with its downright lousy reliability?


Given the fact that only some engines of a specific batch are affected suggests P&W changed some components after ETOPS certification. If it was a change in the manufacturing process of some specific components, it should be resolved rather quickly.



So we are _sure_ that it is a manufacturing screwup and not a design flaw?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:39 pm

AvObserver wrote:
Wondering just how contractually difficult it would be to implement a switch to Leap 1A for carriers that run out of patience with the GTF. I imagine it would be a nightmare legally and logistically for them and for Airbus. But if P&W can't get a handle on these issues soon, hopefully there's a contract clause that might allow for it. A shame, the GTF offered tantalizing gains in fuel efficiency but if it remains unreliable, I can see some customers bailing on it for the Leap 1A. What a headache for Airbus, if that were to come about. At least the A320NEO didn't have a sole source engine maker and Airbus can be gratified they didn't go that route. But it's still going to be a monumental worry for them if Pratt doesn't get this sorted out fairly soon.

This is pretty much what QR did, right?
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Bricktop
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:53 pm

fsabo wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
All that may be true, but reputations have suffered and so may future sales. If CFM needs to increase capacity, that will take time. Airbus doesn't have the capacity to keep on pumping out gliders, and it's not likely they will just work on LEAP frames either. I would be very annoyed at PW if I was Airbus.

CFM can't match the propulsive efficiency of the PW1100G-JM series. That is the most important point today and every day going forward.

Once this is all put to bed then PW can start on PIPs that will potentially eclipse CFM, however the CFM will be the ideal shorthaul motor. The PW is the winner over longer stretches.

I'm convinced totally that this whole fiasco has been made a thousand times worse by Comedy Al and Qatar. If a grown-up had been the launch customer would the optics have been this bad?


Why will CFM be the ideal short haul motor. I would think the opposite.

Not to put words in his mouth, but I think he may mean short term.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:04 pm

fsabo wrote:
So we are _sure_ that it is a manufacturing screwup and not a design flaw?


If it was a design flaw, it would have affected all 500 engines.
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kalvado
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:53 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
fsabo wrote:
So we are _sure_ that it is a manufacturing screwup and not a design flaw?


If it was a design flaw, it would have affected all 500 engines.

That is still a possibility.
Current AD is due to observed problem, not because of pinpointed defect. It is not impossible that root cause behind the issue is worsened by some factors in last batch, but exists in all engines.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:59 pm

Bloomberg: IndiGo Says Has Made 69 Pratt Engine Replacements in 18 Months gives us the impact that the PW1100G problems have had on Indigo:

• 69 engine replacements in 18 months
• 3 in-flight engine shutdowns
• 3 flights cancelled after engine issues discovered
• 3 aircraft withdrawn from service

Not a good look for Pratt and Airbus.
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Turnhouse1
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:01 pm

So is current production part of the problem? Or is it a limited batch that was produced and new engines off the line today are ok?
 
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Channex757
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:05 pm

fsabo wrote:
Why will CFM be the ideal short haul motor. I would think the opposite.

Same reason it is today. Lower maintenance costs promised, and fuel burn isn't such a precise science over shorthaul as it is over oceans.

The CFM56 burns a bit more fuel than the V2500. The CFM56 gives back in time on wing and lower maintenance costs. I seem to recall (without looking as I'm doing something else at the moment) that the LEAP also weighs less than a GTF.
 
kalvado
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:18 pm

Revelation wrote:
Bloomberg: IndiGo Says Has Made 69 Pratt Engine Replacements in 18 Months gives us the impact that the PW1100G problems have had on Indigo:

• 69 engine replacements in 18 months
• 3 in-flight engine shutdowns
• 3 flights cancelled after engine issues discovered
• 3 aircraft withdrawn from service

Not a good look for Pratt and Airbus.

69 out of 48 engines on 24 aircraft?? That's impressive...
 
VV
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:23 pm

Turnhouse1 wrote:
So is current production part of the problem? Or is it a limited batch that was produced and new engines off the line today are ok?


That's a good question.
  • How many aircraft currently in operation are affected by this AD?
  • Do PW1500G and 1900G share the same design? If so, would these engines be affected as well?
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
Bloomberg: IndiGo Says Has Made 69 Pratt Engine Replacements in 18 Months gives us the impact that the PW1100G problems have had on Indigo:

• 69 engine replacements in 18 months
• 3 in-flight engine shutdowns
• 3 flights cancelled after engine issues discovered
• 3 aircraft withdrawn from service

Not a good look for Pratt and Airbus.


Most of those replacements are the result of bearing #3 failures and early combustion chamber degradation. These are older engines that did not incorporate the latest design changes, introduced in December last year. We had a few topics on this subject:

PW1100G Bearing Failure
PW1100G Combustion Chamber Failure

It will be interesting to see how the newest production engines perform in the next 18 months.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:41 pm

VV wrote:
Turnhouse1 wrote:
So is current production part of the problem? Or is it a limited batch that was produced and new engines off the line today are ok?


That's a good question.
[list][*]How many aircraft currently in operation are affected by this AD?


This has already been answered up thread. 43 engines are affected by this AD:

According to Airbus, 43 GTF engines are affected by the AD.


Ref http://atwonline.com/engines/easa-issue ... -directive

Which affects 32 aircraft:

11 of which are understood to have all two engines of the problematic standard and 21 just one of them.


Ref http://atwonline.com/engines/airbus-sto ... o-aircraft

Aircraft can continue flying with an older batch engine:

The order to replace engines affected by the emergency airworthiness directive will further strain the demand on P&W’s pool of spare engines. The company has set aside about 40-45 engines to serve as spares while previously delivered engines are taken off wing to incorporate the durability upgrades.


Ref https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ow-445789/
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
ArticFox
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:42 pm

keesje wrote:
PW must watch out. I can see NEO operators that have yet to receive aircraft, or the bulk of aircraft, or A321LR's, scratching their heads and contacting CFM.


There is very few chance that this incident will have a dramatic impact in the CFM/PW war to power-up A32x neo. Simply because as for the BCA/Airbus competition, since there are only two competitors, companies will be forced to buy both, otherwise they would need to wait for years before having a slot available. One good example of this occurred recently when CFM simply declined to increase production to enable Airbus to go over 60 aircrafts/month ….

This whole thing reminds me that there are only few companies that can introduce an engine into EIS relatively smoothly (GE(+CFM) & RR). Congrats to them.

Maybe one of the side-effect of this could be the NMA engine down selection. I do not see BCA going with PW after all the troubles they had on A32x, especially when you know how cautious they are with their major suppliers for a new project.

Whatever it is, it is just the beginning of something for PW. Let's not forget that despite the fact that the V2500 was supposed to be better in SFC than CFM engines (more recent, two stages HPT …), they just stick to a 50/50 market share all over the years. Low SFC is an important point, but dispatch availability is even more when you are in a market where your aircrafts are doing up to ten flights a day. I remember someone telling a couples of years back, that companies want new engine with A32x, at the same price and same reliability than CEO (i.e. no new glitches). A difficult equation to resolve when you are coming with a whole new architecture I suppose.
 
VV
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:44 pm

43 engines can be 22 to 43 aircraft.
 
ArticFox
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:49 pm

BTW does someone have in mind what were the problems met by the LEAP engine in the A32x project since EIS? I only have in mind some premature deterioration of turbine shroud https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/cfm-reviews-fleet-after-finding-leap-1a-durability-i-442669/.

Thks.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:51 pm

VV wrote:
43 engines can be 22 to 43 aircraft.


Please read the entire article, it says:

11 of which are understood to have all two engines of the problematic standard and 21 just one of them


11 aircraft with 2 faulty engines = 22 engines
21 aircraft with 1 faulty engines = 21 engines

For a total of 32 aircraft with 43 faulty engines.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
VV
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:52 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
11 aircraft with 2 faulty engines = 22 engines
21 aircraft with 1 faulty engines = 21 engines

For a total of 32 aircraft with 43 faulty engines.


OK. Understood. "Faulty engines" means with the latest discovered flaw mentioned in the AD. Is that correct?

Do the PW1500G and PW1900G share the same design? If so is there any risk they have the same issue?
 
fsabo
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Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:47 pm

Channex757 wrote:
fsabo wrote:
Why will CFM be the ideal short haul motor. I would think the opposite.

Same reason it is today. Lower maintenance costs promised, and fuel burn isn't such a precise science over shorthaul as it is over oceans.

The CFM56 burns a bit more fuel than the V2500. The CFM56 gives back in time on wing and lower maintenance costs. I seem to recall (without looking as I'm doing something else at the moment) that the LEAP also weighs less than a GTF.


The weight of the PW1100G-JM is 2857.6 kg or 6300 lbs.
The weight of the LEAP-1A (G02) is 3153 kg or 6936 lbs.

A stunning difference of 636 lbs or 1272 lbs per aircraft.
Now I guess that the nacelle of the LEAP-1A is a little bit lighter as the fan diameter is 3” smaller (78” versus 81” for the PW1100G-JM). So the difference at aircraft level would probably be more in the order of 1000 lbs.

https://aeroturbopower.blogspot.hr/2016 ... pared.html
 
Turnhouse1
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Airbus stops accepting PW1100G engines

Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:48 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
VV wrote:
Turnhouse1 wrote:
So is current production part of the problem? Or is it a limited batch that was produced and new engines off the line today are ok?


That's a good question.
[list][*]How many aircraft currently in operation are affected by this AD?


This has already been answered up thread. 43 engines are affected by this AD:

According to Airbus, 43 GTF engines are affected by the AD.


Ref http://atwonline.com/engines/easa-issue ... -directive

Which affects 32 aircraft:

11 of which are understood to have all two engines of the problematic standard and 21 just one of them.


Ref http://atwonline.com/engines/airbus-sto ... o-aircraft

Aircraft can continue flying with an older batch engine:

The order to replace engines affected by the emergency airworthiness directive will further strain the demand on P&W’s pool of spare engines. The company has set aside about 40-45 engines to serve as spares while previously delivered engines are taken off wing to incorporate the durability upgrades.


Ref https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ow-445789/


My question was more are the 43 affected engines the last 43 off the line, or a batch of 43 which was manufactured some months ago? I.e. If P&W finish an engine tomorrow will it have this defective part in it or is current production ok?

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