UPS launches its longest ever flight SDF-DXB on 747-8F

LAXintl · Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:57 pm

At approximately 7,700mi UPS this week launched new Louisville-Dubai route is the longest regularly-scheduled flight UPS has ever operated

The daily nonstop flight, flown by the 747-8F, will cut time-in-transit from North and South America to key destinations in the Middle East and South Asia by a full business day.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/transpor ... t-to-dubai
https://aircargoworld.com/allposts/ups- ... -8f-video/

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So while US3 complain about open-skies its folks like UPS and FedEx which have continually defended the agreements as free access to Gulf nations are growing importance for them.

As a side note, UPS also recently was named as official logistics provider for Expo 2020 Dubai.

UPlog · Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:02 pm

For trivia sake if anyone is wondering, the new nonstop is part of around the world trip that runs SDF - Dubai - Shenzhen - Anchorage - SDF.

Also for those that might not know Dubai is the connection base for much of UPS in India, the Middle East and Africa and this nonstop flight will help free up capacity from other existing inbound services from US and Europe.

janders · Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:32 pm

Cool. We never really hear about cargo routes.

There is a whole other world out there and this and shows the capability of 747-8F.

JohnJ · Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:39 pm

Cool. FedEx operates a similar flight MEM-DXB on a 777. It appears to be nonstop eastbound only; not sure if it's a "round the world" flight like the UPS one.

WPvsMW · Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:48 pm

Does UPS' RTW route have one active frame... or are two or more 748Fs operating the route serially?
Eastbound only?

ltbewr · Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:54 pm

Now we know why UPS ordered new 747's.

alasizon · Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:15 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Does UPS' RTW route have one active frame... or are two or more 748Fs operating the route serially?
Eastbound only?

No way that one frame that could do this by itself. My guess is its a three frame operation to cover all seven days a week.

NameOmitted · Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:24 pm

So... Boeing lists the range of the freighter at 4,120 nautical miles. This is presumably at a full load. Any word on how light the vessel had to be to fly that far? Presumably no lights than the Intercontinental...

morrisond · Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:26 pm

I suspect it's not carrying a lot from SDF to DXB....It should have the same fuel capacity as the 8i so the range with light load should be no problem. The other legs don't seem to be that long.

slookabill · Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:27 pm

As of right now(just watching from Flightaware), it appears to only leave Saturday only for the SDF-DXB leg... otherwise the B748s are balanced with 2 coming/leaving into SDF each weeknight via flights to ANC and then beyond.

janders · Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:30 pm

Have to remember that express shipments tend to have planes volume out way before they weigh out.
So in other words the payload onboard does not weigh as much as general normal freight.

WorldFlier · Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:31 pm

UPlog wrote:
For trivia sake if anyone is wondering, the new nonstop is part of around the world trip that runs SDF - Dubai - Shenzhen - Anchorage - SDF.

Also for those that might not know Dubai is the connection base for much of UPS in India, the Middle East and Africa and this nonstop flight will help free up capacity from other existing inbound services from US and Europe.

Wow! What a RTW flight! The 747-8F is clearly the champion of boxes and pallets filling nose-to-tail cargo!

UPlog · Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:31 pm

Flight goes daily after Feb 27th.

B777LRF · Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:12 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
Wow! What a RTW flight! The 747-8F is clearly the champion of boxes and pallets filling nose-to-tail cargo!

Your enthusiasm is appreciated, however, the true 'champion' of long-haul box shifting is the 77F. Both FedEx and DHL operate RTW flights, with e.g. DHL operating a CVG-BAH-HKG-CVG rotation, and has done so for quiet a few years. I believe FedEx operate a MEM-CDG-DXB HKG-MEM service on the 77F as well.

WorldFlier · Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:15 pm

B777LRF wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Wow! What a RTW flight! The 747-8F is clearly the champion of boxes and pallets filling nose-to-tail cargo!

Your enthusiasm is appreciated, however, the true 'champion' of long-haul box shifting is the 77F. Both FedEx and DHL operate RTW flights, with e.g. DHL operating a CVG-BAH-HKG-CVG rotation, and has done so for quiet a few years. I believe FedEx operate a MEM-CDG-DXB HKG-MEM service on the 77F as well.

Can the 747-8F not carry "more" boxes as the 747-8F has more cargo volume the the 777F?

I would love to know more, but my understanding was the 747-8F is for routes where the 777F gets "cubed" out (i.e can't fit any more boxes, but it could have taken more weight)

CCGPV · Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:23 pm

What is the catering like on cargo flights like this? Is it similar to your standard airline fare? Would there be a selection of meals and drinks? Pre-order by crew?

Flighty · Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Does this flight go in both directions? If not, they might carry a useful load in the Easterly direction.

Second question, does UPS work with Emirates to get freight from Dubai to South Asian destinations?

irelayer · Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:18 pm

CCGPV wrote:
What is the catering like on cargo flights like this? Is it similar to your standard airline fare? Would there be a selection of meals and drinks? Pre-order by crew?

https://www.quora.com/What-do-pilots-eat-on-cargo-planes?share=8c2a0aab&srid=dWvt

DaufuskieGuy · Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:29 pm

irelayer wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
What is the catering like on cargo flights like this? Is it similar to your standard airline fare? Would there be a selection of meals and drinks? Pre-order by crew?

https://www.quora.com/What-do-pilots-eat-on-cargo-planes?share=8c2a0aab&srid=dWvt

are they covering these flights with two pilots and no crew? I would think with the duration they'd have at least three in rotation.

B777LRF · Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:32 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
Can the 747-8F not carry "more" boxes as the 747-8F has more cargo volume the the 777F?

I would love to know more, but my understanding was the 747-8F is for routes where the 777F gets "cubed" out (i.e can't fit any more boxes, but it could have taken more weight)

Sure, the 747 offers both more payload and volume than a 77F, but the 77F offers more range. Roughly speaking the 747 is good up to 8-10 hours, beyond that a 77F is the more profitable solution.

cvgComair · Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:35 pm

B777LRF wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Wow! What a RTW flight! The 747-8F is clearly the champion of boxes and pallets filling nose-to-tail cargo!

Your enthusiasm is appreciated, however, the true 'champion' of long-haul box shifting is the 77F. Both FedEx and DHL operate RTW flights, with e.g. DHL operating a CVG-BAH-HKG-CVG rotation, and has done so for quiet a few years. I believe FedEx operate a MEM-CDG-DXB HKG-MEM service on the 77F as well.

DHL has been putting 744's and 748's on the CVG-BAH routing recently in addition to the 77F. I have even seen CVG-HKG and HKG-CVG go on the 744/748, though that is less common. Most of the international flights on DHL out of CVG are now 744/8, with 762/3's used for shorter TATL routes. They seem to really like the 744/8, they are now putting them on many domestic and international routes out of CVG, we really don't see many 77F's anymore, usually 1-2 a day.

Sean-SAN- · Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:36 pm

UPS and Fedex have very nice catering. Several choices they can order in advance, as well as coolers full of drinks and a coffee maker. Some of the other carriers like Atlas need to be more creative since they fly to a lot of far flung places. Sometimes they will arrange local hotels or restaurants to cater the flights.

Stitch · Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:50 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
So... Boeing lists the range of the freighter at 4,120 nautical miles. This is presumably at a full load. Any word on how light the vessel had to be to fly that far?

ACAP says 105,000 pounds at 8000nm for an OEM-spec bird though real-world conditions using UPS' mission rules and DOWs would be less than that.

airzona11 · Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:04 am

Very cool. that is a long route. The logistics of the air freight market are great. EK has such a great advantage for time-sensitive express freight.

flyingclrs727 · Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:19 am

morrisond wrote:
I suspect it's not carrying a lot from SDF to DXB....It should have the same fuel capacity as the 8i so the range with light load should be no problem. The other legs don't seem to be that long.

No, it does not have tanks in the tail the way the 8i has.

MatthewDB · Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:22 am

Sean-SAN- wrote:
UPS and Fedex have very nice catering. Several choices they can order in advance, as well as coolers full of drinks and a coffee maker. Some of the other carriers like Atlas need to be more creative since they fly to a lot of far flung places. Sometimes they will arrange local hotels or restaurants to cater the flights.

I had some coworkers who got to ride along with cargo when we booked 3 747-400s. It was a while ago so I'm not certain on the carrier, but IIRC it was Cathay Pacific. They said it was the best flight they ever took.

HPRamper · Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:27 am

JohnJ wrote:
Cool. FedEx operates a similar flight MEM-DXB on a 777. It appears to be nonstop eastbound only; not sure if it's a "round the world" flight like the UPS one.

FX has two ATW flights that go opposite directions, both on 777F. The westbound travels MEM-SEA-ANC-PVG-LGG-MEM, I don't recall the full eastbound route but it transits OAK as opposed to SEA.

cougar15 · Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:51 am

morrisond wrote:
I suspect it's not carrying a lot from SDF to DXB....It should have the same fuel capacity as the 8i so the range with light load should be no problem. The other legs don't seem to be that long.

I doubt the plane is that light, bear in mind it departs 5X´s primary hub (SDF) to another primary regional hub (DXB), and I am sure it has plenty on it that connects regionally from there.
Whilst new for UPS, FedEx and TNT have been doing this for years, TNT for example with their T7´s started in JFK-LGG-DXB-HKG and back again, Fedex has multiple of these flights, although some of the 5X sectors are rather short when they hit Europe (CGN-CDG) for example on the T7.

RichardWelling · Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:06 am

MatthewDB wrote:
Sean-SAN- wrote:
UPS and Fedex have very nice catering. Several choices they can order in advance, as well as coolers full of drinks and a coffee maker. Some of the other carriers like Atlas need to be more creative since they fly to a lot of far flung places. Sometimes they will arrange local hotels or restaurants to cater the flights.

I had some coworkers who got to ride along with cargo when we booked 3 747-400s. It was a while ago so I'm not certain on the carrier, but IIRC it was Cathay Pacific. They said it was the best flight they ever took.

On combination carriers, the catering agreement is the same as their passenger flights since its easy for billing/invoicing. Each station may have a different carering company but the meals are all standardized.

worldranger · Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:49 am

I used to fly the 744F - and for the long haul, it had the most comfortable crew rest of all the Jumbos I flew (744SF, 744C, 744Px).

The crew rest was at rear of hump, both pilots had their own private stand up mini-room on left and right. Fwd of the hump was galley & WC. we also had 8 First Class seats for D/headers and a large space between the F class seats and rear bunks where you could lay down a mattress and rest. It was awesome.

Cargo catering is always good - always too much, and the ’groundies’ usually have a feast on arrival from leftovers.

Is the 748F the same config?

cougar15 · Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:55 am

worldranger wrote:
I used to fly the 744F - and for the long haul, it had the most comfortable crew rest of all the Jumbos I flew (744SF, 744C, 744Px).

The crew rest was at rear of hump, both pilots had their own private stand up mini-room on left and right. Fwd of the hump was galley & WC. we also had 8 First Class seats for D/headers and a large space between the F class seats and rear bunks where you could lay down a mattress and rest. It was awesome.

Cargo catering is always good - always too much, and the ’groundies’ usually have a feast on arrival from leftovers.

Is the 748F the same config?

Interesting, ours (744ERF) were somewhat different, and I thought they would all be configured the same ? 6 seats (business style though, the non lie flat type with the footrest).
Crew rest was the same at the at the back of the upper deck as you had described, but galley and lav were up front immediately behind the cockpit. The 748F is the same.

lightsaber · Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:04 am

morrisond wrote:
I suspect it's not carrying a lot from SDF to DXB....It should have the same fuel capacity as the 8i so the range with light load should be no problem. The other legs don't seem to be that long.

I suspect when loads are heavy, there will be a fuel stop.

flyingclrs727 · Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:12 am

lightsaber wrote:
morrisond wrote:
I suspect it's not carrying a lot from SDF to DXB....It should have the same fuel capacity as the 8i so the range with light load should be no problem. The other legs don't seem to be that long.

I suspect when loads are heavy, there will be a fuel stop.

KEF would be an excellent place for a fuel stop.

MatthewDB · Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:36 am

RichardWelling wrote:
MatthewDB wrote:
Sean-SAN- wrote:
UPS and Fedex have very nice catering. Several choices they can order in advance, as well as coolers full of drinks and a coffee maker. Some of the other carriers like Atlas need to be more creative since they fly to a lot of far flung places. Sometimes they will arrange local hotels or restaurants to cater the flights.

I had some coworkers who got to ride along with cargo when we booked 3 747-400s. It was a while ago so I'm not certain on the carrier, but IIRC it was Cathay Pacific. They said it was the best flight they ever took.

On combination carriers, the catering agreement is the same as their passenger flights since its easy for billing/invoicing. Each station may have a different carering company but the meals are all standardized.

My guess would be that if you charter a 747 halfway around the world, they give you first class meals and not a economy. The people that went said it was just like others describe for regular cargo - no cabin crew, you helped yourself to anything you wanted.

I was bummed when I wasn't chosen for the move team. It would have been a cool ride.

RichardWelling · Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:16 am

worldranger wrote:

Cargo catering is always good - always too much, and the ’groundies’ usually have a feast on arrival from leftovers.

Is the 748F the same config?

I know 777F has 4 supernary generic business class seats and 2 jump seats. If its a 777F configured for a horse charter operation, you can fit up to 9 economy plus 2 jump seats. Normally ground staff are not allowed to eat the catering as the food could spoil and potentially make the said person ill.

MatthewDB wrote:
My guess would be that if you charter a 747 halfway around the world, they give you first class meals and not a economy. The people that went said it was just like others describe for regular cargo - no cabin crew, you helped yourself to anything you wanted.

I know that ET has/had flight attendants for their freighter operation.

Source:
https://youtu.be/YTbIDeFwoQI

But for the most part you have to help yourself to the catering and drinks.

I can only speak for combination carriers, but most of the time its economy class meals and nothing fancy. Remember that the supernary seating does not have IFE. So bringing a book or tablet/laptop is key. Here is what the 777F supernary seating looks like:

cat3appr50 · Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:18 pm

For the UPS76 KSDF to OMDB flight on 2/3/18 (Act. 12 Hr. 37 Min. Flt Time), with WX/winds aloft, approx. 6,400 NM distance, flight route, and resulting required total fuel loading, it could have had around a 190,000 lb. total payload (max. payload around 292,000 lbs.), and be adequately under the max. structural takeoff weight and acceptable KSDF takeoff (Rwy17R- 11,890 ft.) weight, and OMDB landing (Rwy30L) weight.

kitplane01 · Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:34 pm

UPlog wrote:
For trivia sake if anyone is wondering, the new nonstop is part of around the world trip that runs SDF - Dubai - Shenzhen - Anchorage - SDF.

Also for those that might not know Dubai is the connection base for much of UPS in India, the Middle East and Africa and this nonstop flight will help free up capacity from other existing inbound services from US and Europe.

How does UPS have rights to carry cargo between two non-US airports? Are they allowed to carry cargo from Dubai to Shenzen?

lightsaber · Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:05 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
UPlog wrote:
For trivia sake if anyone is wondering, the new nonstop is part of around the world trip that runs SDF - Dubai - Shenzhen - Anchorage - SDF.

Also for those that might not know Dubai is the connection base for much of UPS in India, the Middle East and Africa and this nonstop flight will help free up capacity from other existing inbound services from US and Europe.

How does UPS have rights to carry cargo between two non-US airports? Are they allowed to carry cargo from Dubai to Shenzen?

Bilaterals are much more open for cargo. If China prevented this, their cargo to Africa and the USA would be impacted. UPS has a hub at Dubai and Shenzen. For the Shenzen hub to work, it needs generous rights.

Please recall when China and FedEx to build hubs in China. Those cargo hubs helped propel China to it's prominent economic status. UPS and FedEx brought in logistical processes China needed. Yes,China competes now.

Bilaterals are only signed if both parties agree. The issue is when there was bribery or bilaterals are not honored, such as corruption (seeking a bribery).

B777LRF · Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:17 pm

cat3appr50 wrote:
For the UPS76 KSDF to OMDB flight on 2/3/18 (Act. 12 Hr. 37 Min. Flt Time), with WX/winds aloft, approx. 6,400 NM distance, flight route, and resulting required total fuel loading, it could have had around a 190,000 lb. total payload (max. payload around 292,000 lbs.), and be adequately under the max. structural takeoff weight and acceptable KSDF takeoff (Rwy17R- 11,890 ft.) weight, and OMDB landing (Rwy30L) weight.

So around 86 tons for 12,5 hours. The 777F will lift max. payload (105 tons) for 10,5 hours. It flies at around the same speed as the 747, and burns around 7 tons an hour. In rough numbers, then, the 77F should be able to lift around 90 tons on the same route or, being conservative, more or less the same as a 748F.

BravoOne · Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:40 pm

morrisond wrote:
I suspect it's not carrying a lot from SDF to DXB....It should have the same fuel capacity as the 8i so the range with light load should be no problem. The other legs don't seem to be that long.

Pretty sure the fuel capacity is not the same, as the Intercontinal has an optional 3300 USG tank in the horizontal fuel tank.

WPvsMW · Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:16 am

kitplane01 wrote:
How does UPS have rights to carry cargo between two non-US airports? Are they allowed to carry cargo from Dubai to Shenzen?

Seventh Freedom of the Air. The right to operate between two countries other than the home country with stops in the two countries for non-technical reasons. Very common for cargo ops.

UPlog · Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:00 pm

While US3 cry about ME3 open-skies companies like FedEx, UPS and Atlas Air argued to preserve them.

There is tremendous economic activity and benefit for companies and consumers that US airlines have liberal access to markets, and why companies like UPS and FedEx are able to operate global hubs and provide services domestically inside foreign nations and regionally among countries.

SFOThinker · Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:42 pm

Thank-you to all who posted. This is one my all time favorite Anet threads.
First, for any non- industry Avgeek, learning what's in the hump of a 747 freighter is fascinating.
Second, the discussion of seventh freedom operations, and why freighter and passenger operations differ is thought provoking.
Third, everyone is civil, respectful and helpful to each other. Unlike some other threads that (cough!) seem to be focused on the passenger side of the business.
I wonder why?

IrishTexan · Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:04 pm

UPS video with some commentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut99nKziWsg

WPvsMW · Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:18 pm

SFOThinker wrote:
...
Third, everyone is civil, respectful and helpful to each other. Unlike some other threads that (cough!) seem to be focused on the passenger side of the business.
I wonder why?

If containers could talk, the cargo threads would have their share of vitriol.

WPvsMW · Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:30 pm

UPlog wrote:
While US3 cry about ME3, comma inserted open-skies companies like FedEx, UPS and Atlas Air argued to preserve them.

Sorry to be the grammar police... but the missing comma is critical to your intended meaning. A newbie might get the wrong idea about FX.

Flyingsottsman · Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:21 am

SFOThinker wrote:
Thank-you to all who posted. This is one my all time favorite Anet threads.
First, for any non- industry Avgeek, learning what's in the hump of a 747 freighter is fascinating.
Second, the discussion of seventh freedom operations, and why freighter and passenger operations differ is thought provoking.
Third, everyone is civil, respectful and helpful to each other. Unlike some other threads that (cough!) seem to be focused on the passenger side of the business.
I wonder why?

Yeah I agree, always wanted to know what goes on, on those long haul freighter flights, how they are catered for and so on, hope there can be a dedicated cargo thread on a.net.
Does Air France still have a dedicated cargo operation?

Flyingsottsman · Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:26 am

UPS flies into Sydney, how come both Brisbane and Melbourne are not served, and yet in the streets of Melbourne I see UPS vans its the same with FedEx as
well. I do remember seeing Flying Tigers that use to fly into Melbourne.

WPvsMW · Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:52 am

FX and 5X operate their own metal in Oz just like in the States... profitability. They are good... errrr, the best?.... in the worldwide cargo business. Certainly in the parcel business. If MEL penciled in the black... FX and 5X would have metal there.

USAirKid · Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:16 am

I had two thoughts while watching the UPS Youtube video:

1. Is this only an eastbound flight? If so is that on purpose to maximize tailwinds and fuel efficiency? (i.e. Is the freight volume between DXB and SDF low enough that it makes sense to send it via Shenzhen and ANC?)

2. If the 748 cubes out before it weighs out, has there been any serious consideration of using the 748i's extended upper deck to carry light weight, perhaps bulk loaded freight? (Bags of letter sized overnight packages?)

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