Since the last discussion has been going on for a couple of years and has gotten rather long, we'll continue the discussion here in a 2018 thread.

Please refer to the old topic below
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=607515

✈️ atcsundevil

How's the conversion with N1427A going? I'd imagine it being on the final phases now.

atcsundevil wrote:

Since the last discussion has been going on for a couple of years and has gotten rather long, we'll continue the discussion here in a 2018 thread.

Please refer to the old topic below
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=607515

✈️ atcsundevil

Ack. Now I'm no longer the "topic author", and thus won't get notifications when people post. Oy.

Okay, never mind, I figured out how to fix that problem.

BOEING777EK wrote:

How's the conversion with N1427A going? I'd imagine it being on the final phases now.

It should be. It is the first one through TPE, so it stands to reason that it would take longer than the BCFs being done at QPG. Atlas reregistered it into the 1427A number from 638GT in mid-January, so that's another clue that it's coming.

I wouldn't be surprised to see 1013A come back from QPG before we see 1427A, just based on the reliability of QPG's operation to date. It hasn't been reregistered from 661GT yet, but that's not a big deal as it is already an Atlas aircraft.

And, of course, the next two Atlas ones from TLV are most likely a couple of months away.

Acey's post about a TA at ATI is a big deal. It's the only one of the Amazon Prime Air carriers to have reached one, and there will be lots of drama about it from the other carriers' pilots, who are represented by a different, more-militant, union. (ABX+Atlas=Teamsters Local 1224, ATI=ALPA)

Maybe someone could point me in the direction to the answer as looking and cannot find it but just how big is the Prime Air fleet now and how many are expected to be added to the fleet over this year?

wjcandee wrote:

Acey's post about a TA at ATI is a big deal. It's the only one of the Amazon Prime Air carriers to have reached one, and there will be lots of drama about it from the other carriers' pilots, who are represented by a different, more-militant, union. (ABX+Atlas=Teamsters Local 1224, ATI=ALPA)

Care to go out on a limb about ramifications? More conversions for ATI? Less flying for ABX? Seems Amazon has not yet forgotten how they got screwed over in peak 2016.

Spacepope wrote:

Care to go out on a limb about ramifications? More conversions for ATI? Less flying for ABX? Seems Amazon has not yet forgotten how they got screwed over in peak 2016.

Labor relations are a very personal and emotional arena, with widely-divergent perspectives, even among those who are similarly-situated. I generally try not to speak about it except to convey known facts or a balanced analysis of events and law and precedent (e.g. the issues before the Court in the Single Carrier petition).

Purchasers of airlift services make decisions based upon any number of inputs, including price (both generally and for handling specific routes) and reliability (which includes maintenance, dispatching, on-time culture and labor relations regarding all crafts). And since people make these decisions, emotions sometimes come into it as well. (Sometimes, businesses hold their nose and deal with people they dislike because it otherwise is the best decision, and sometimes they don't. And since many decisions are close, or at least explained in terms of objective factors, one can't always be sure when it's one or the other. "His Ph.D. from Harvard and track record of unparalleled success in this niche wasn't weighted as heavily in our analysis as the fact that he didn't speak French.")

ABX at one time had an amazing on-time culture, with crafts that backed it up. It was one of few carriers that actually had a history and tribal knowledge of how to do Express. The sort was a ballet at which you had to file a report if you blocked out even a couple of minutes in either direction off your dance card. Now, the DHL sort isn't wholly-populated by carriers that operate at that level of precision, and apparently it isn't essential to them. And despite the significant amount of complaining by ABX pilots during the early days of Project Aerosmith, they apparently acted like professionals, sucked it up, and got 'er done. Don't know what it's like now. And of course Atlas pilots are now prohibited by injunction from their SHOP, BOOT and other tactics, but I don't know what practical effect their labor tactics are presenting (or previously presented) to the Amazon operation. What I do know is that there's a lot of slack right now in their Amazon fleet, as there is generally in the overall ABX fleet (although the ABX slack is being mitigated in part by a reduction in ABX's fleet size). I don't know the significance of the Atlas slack; it kind of happened before and then it was all kind of sucked up in a schedule change, so maybe that will happen again.

As to ATI picking up additional "conversions", I'm just not persuaded that there is any immediate appetite at Amazon to move past the 40 widebody aircraft. There are still 8 more Atlas widebodies to go into service on Prime Air, and the 12 that are in service are far from fully-engaged. Could Amazon be looking at smaller aircraft? Sure. Could Amazon be looking at new-build? Sure. Could Amazon be looking at moving some Titan/Andromeda-dry-leased aircraft to ATI? Sure. (Just like DHL pulled 9 of its 767-200s from ABX and gave them to Atlas to operate.) Could Amazon be looking at moving some or all of the 6 ABX-operated dry-leased aircraft to ATI? Maybe, but that's a bit of a bugaboo under the ABX CBA. Doable, probably, but it might be a hornets' nest they don't want to whack, and it's frankly hard to see what purpose it would serve.

Kalitta picked up some business and some pilots after signing an agreement. Maybe that will happen at ATI, and maybe it won't. It's really pretty hard to say. But it's hard to imagine that it wouldn't at least solidify the relationship with the customer, and give it some level of comfort if it does decide to expand further. (OTOH, the customer could look to other carriers with calmer current labor relations as well if stability is its most important decision factor.)

I'm not sure if it's any of my business to comment on beyond that.

I do suspect that N794AX did get a new tail number. When I was at ILN a couple days before it took off, it did have a temporary tail number (N794AX) sticker over another tail number. I do not recall seeing N752AX at ILN. There was one 767-200 in DHL paint that was sitting in front of a hanger undergoing maintenance but couldn't tell the tail number. Maybe that was 752AX? N768VA also appeared to be getting parted out and looked like it will eventually get scrapped. I would think ATSG is using this aircraft for parts as it is sitting next to some 727's that haven't flown in years. N712AX was also still at ILN in the same area where I saw it last April. I wonder when N712AX will fly again!

N383AN was reregistered yesterday to CAM, and, sure enough, it flew today (2/7/18) to ILN for pre-conversion activities. LN500. June 1993 build. So a little less than 25 years old. Has winglets.

N379CX, the first Northern Air Cargo 767-300, flew from ILN to MIA on Monday, and today had its first revenue flight, from MIA to SJU. Was 372AA prior to conversion.

It is traveling under NAC flight numbers, but it isn't clear to me who is actually operating it at the moment (e.g. ATI?).

wjcandee wrote:

N379CX, the first Northern Air Cargo 767-300, flew from ILN to MIA on Monday, and today had its first revenue flight, from MIA to SJU. Was 372AA prior to conversion.

It is traveling under NAC flight numbers, but it isn't clear to me who is actually operating it at the moment (e.g. ATI?).

NAC now has 767s on its op specs.

MO11 wrote:

wjcandee wrote:

N379CX, the first Northern Air Cargo 767-300, flew from ILN to MIA on Monday, and today had its first revenue flight, from MIA to SJU. Was 372AA prior to conversion.

It is traveling under NAC flight numbers, but it isn't clear to me who is actually operating it at the moment (e.g. ATI?).

NAC now has 767s on its op specs.

There have been a lot of posts on the web that say that this aircraft is being flown by ATI, which is why I asked; I suspected that was wrong. My sense was that it could be flown by NAC. The only issue with the Hawaii flights I thought was etops, and I guess you are confirming that.

As far as I’m aware, ATI isn’t operating the aircraft, though we’re still operating N399CM on behalf of Aloha until they obtain ETOPS OpSpecs.

N767AX ferried ROW to CVG today

Here we go again with the rumor that Amazon is going into competition with FDX and UPS. This does have a little more info from the WSJ. Info is here.
http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-p ... ups-2018-2

Also new thread on the subject is here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1386107

Allee wrote:

N767AX ferried ROW to CVG today

New paint? From the SDRs it looks like it underwent a heavy check in May of 2017. 60,000 hours and 42,000 cycles.

Spacepope wrote:

Allee wrote:

N767AX ferried ROW to CVG today

New paint? From the SDRs it looks like it underwent a heavy check in May of 2017. 60,000 hours and 42,000 cycles.

Looked to be a fresh coat of paint. Still wears the ABX Air livery with a white tail.

KCVGSpotter wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

Allee wrote:

N767AX ferried ROW to CVG today

New paint? From the SDRs it looks like it underwent a heavy check in May of 2017. 60,000 hours and 42,000 cycles.

Looked to be a fresh coat of paint. Still wears the ABX Air livery with a white tail.

Weird. In photos from December 2017, it looked fine. Two weeks is exactly the time to strip and paint a 767-200, but if it looks the same, I'm wondering why.

KCVGSpotter wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

Allee wrote:

N767AX ferried ROW to CVG today

New paint? From the SDRs it looks like it underwent a heavy check in May of 2017. 60,000 hours and 42,000 cycles.

Looked to be a fresh coat of paint. Still wears the ABX Air livery with a white tail.

The “ABX Air” livery could be just a decal, easily stripped off if the aircraft is slated to go to another CAM customer in the future.
Just a guess if CAM is painting out the
ABX Air logos on the tails.

When I saw N794AX at Wilmington before heading to Ireland, it appeared to have a brand new coat of DHL paint on it as well.

And as expected N794AX has been deregistered in the US as of 2/9/18 and is shown by the FAA as exported to Bahrain.

cmairplaneman wrote:

When I saw N794AX at Wilmington before heading to Ireland, it appeared to have a brand new coat of DHL paint on it as well.

Correct. It spent January 11 to January 26, 2018 at ROW for paint.

MajMattMason wrote:

The “ABX Air” livery could be just a decal, easily stripped off if the aircraft is slated to go to another CAM customer in the future.
Just a guess if CAM is painting out the ABX Air logos on the tails.

That's a very good point. FWIW, this aircraft has for some time just had a white tail with a small US Flag on it. It hasn't had the giant A on the tail. It has had the rest of the ABX Air livery, however.

Just a quick update on TLV conversions, seems like a few frames are in deep storage on th IAI ramp (N1487A N1619A pre conversion-Atlas birds and N7375A post conversion-ATSG bird). Not sure why or when these will change status.

Will update when have more info

yochai wrote:

Just a quick update on TLV conversions, seems like a few frames are in deep storage on th IAI ramp (N1487A N1619A pre conversion-Atlas birds and N7375A post conversion-ATSG bird). Not sure why or when these will change status.

Will update when have more info

Thanks. I have been waiting to see N7375A move, for example on a test flight...

Seems like N387AM should be next to finish conversion for ATSG.

wjcandee wrote:

yochai wrote:

Just a quick update on TLV conversions, seems like a few frames are in deep storage on th IAI ramp (N1487A N1619A pre conversion-Atlas birds and N7375A post conversion-ATSG bird). Not sure why or when these will change status.

Will update when have more info

Thanks. I have been waiting to see N7375A move, for example on a test flight...

Seems like N387AM should be next to finish conversion for ATSG.

N387AM already completed, did a high power engine run up a couple of days ago, but moved back into the hangar for additional work, won't be long before it is out on a test flight I think.

Sorry for the rather simple/stupid question, but are the "Amazon Prime Air" aircraft flown by Atlas or other? Or perhaps a division of Atlas?

Wasn't there a major labor issue with pilots of one of these companies not too long ago?

n92r03 wrote:

Sorry for the rather simple/stupid question, but are the "Amazon Prime Air" aircraft flown by Atlas or other? Or perhaps a division of Atlas?

Wasn't there a major labor issue with pilots of one of these companies not too long ago?

Quick and dirty response:

Amazon Prime Air aircraft are dry leased by an Amazon division from two leasing companies. Meaning that Amazon leases the aircraft without flight crews, etc. Like you would a car. The leasing companies are Titan, which is a subsidiary of Atlas, and Cargo Aircraft Management, a subsidiary of ATSG, which owns ABX Air and ATI. Titan has titled some of the aircraft with a sister company, Andromeda, and different little entities (presumably to raise capital from investors), but it is the one with the Amazon contract. CAM has titled the aircraft to itself.

The initial lease terms were 5 years for the 12 767-200s that Amazon Air leased from CAM. 7 years for the 8 767-300s leased from CAM. 10 years for the 767-300s leased from Titan. Presumably, the parties can agree to extend the lease terms if they choose to do so.

The 767-200s were existing CAM-owned aircraft that were coming off-lease or otherwise available. The 767-300s were retired passenger aircraft that were purchased by CAM and Titan and converted. All CAM aircraft are converted by IAI/Bedek in TLV. Most Titan aircraft are as well, but 8 of the 20 are conversions by Boeing contractors at QPG (6) and the new BCF line at TPE (2).

Amazon simultaneously entered into a contract with an ATSG subsidiary to coordinate the operation of the CAM aircraft by ABX and ATI. ABX flies 6. ATI flies 14, including all of the 767-300s. All CAM aircraft have long been delivered and are in service. These contracts are terminable for convenience by Amazon on a couple of months' notice, so Amazon effectively can have any company fly these aircraft that it thinks competent to do so.

Amazon also entered into a contract with Atlas to fly the Titan aircraft. Same type of terminable for convenience provision. Atlas is presently operating 12 of these aircraft, with one more in its possession but not yet due to be delivered to Amazon.Atlas seems to be using it occasionally for non-Amazon work right now. The remaining 7 aircraft are in conversion or awaiting conversion.

The Atlas aircraft appear to be a bit more-lightly-scheduled right now than the ABX/ATI aircraft. Maybe this has something to do with Atlas's ability to staff its aircraft, maybe it doesn't. Bottom line is it will be putting 8 more into service this year.

Tidbit: Atlas has one aircraft that is not dry-leased to Amazon that it uses sometimes on Amazon and usually not. It bought it to have a spare airframe to sub in where needed due to maintenance or other issues. Amazon schedules its fleet in a way that allows for spares among the dry-leased aircraft, but this is the carrier going beyond that. ATI has two aircraft in the same position. At Atlas, it's 1709A, which is painted in white (and was already-converted when Atlas bought it and brought it out of the desert). At ATI, it's 255CM (all white 767-200) and 395CM (767-300 in very-snappy ATI livery). ABX has enough slack in its fleet that it doesn't designate an Amazon spare, sometimes using aircraft in DHL livery.


Labor issues: Both ABX and Atlas are with Teamsters local 1224. ATI is with ALPA. ABX and Atlas, in consecutive years, have tried to leverage the Amazon contract around the holidays with various techniques in an effort to come to an agreement about a better contract. They also have been discouraging pilots from applying to work at either airline. Initially, it appeared that ABX stood to gain at least half of the ATSG Amazon aircraft as they were coming on board in 2016, and likely more. But after their short-lived holiday strike, which the court enjoined as illegal, the balance of the ATSG aircraft went to ATI to operate. Atlas pilots were engaging in a campaign they called SHOP (don't help out the company) and BOOT (don't block out before your scheduled departure time even if you're buttoned up), which apparently had at least some effect in inconveniencing the Amazon shipments and the other Atlas customers, such as one or more of military holiday troop flights that allegedly were lengthily-stranded as a result of the pilots' campaign. A federal court essentially-enjoined those Atlas activities in late 2017. Recently, the ATI pilots came to a tentative agreement on a new contract with their carrier. It is unclear whether anything significant is happening at the other two carriers in terms of resolving their situations. Neither sound like particularly-happy places to work these days, though.

Thank you wjcandee your quick and dirty is really more detailed than most people's well put together replies!

I started a bit of an outline to clear it up for me and I'm putting what I came up with here for others:

Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings

• Titan - Leasing subsidiary of Atlas
  
  • 20 - 767-300, leased for by Amazon 10 years. All purchased as passenger airliners.
    
    • Conversion Location:
      • 12 converted IAI/Bedek in TLV
        
      • 6 converted into BCF at QPF
        
      • 2 converted into BCF at TPE
    • Delivery Status:
      • 12 are converted and consistently flown for Amazon by Atlas.
      • 1 is converted, but not yet consitently flown for Amazon by Atlas.
      • 7 are in the process of being converted and will be flown for Amazon by Atlas.
  • Andromeda and other single purpose entities, hold titles to the aircraft leased by Amazon through Titan.
• Atlas Air
  
  • Pilots represented by Teamsters 1224
  • 12 - 767-300 are currently being flown for Amazon.

Air Transport Services Group (ATSG)

• Cargo Aircraft Management (CAM) - Leasing arm of ATSG
  
  • 12 - 767-200, leased by Amazon for 5 years.
    • Already freighters when leased by Amazon.
  • 8 - 767-300, leased by Amazon for 7 years.
    • Purchased as passenger airplanes, converted IAI/Bedek in TLV.
  • Aircraft are titled to CAM
• ABX Air
  
  • Pilots represented by Teamsters 1224
  • Flies 6 - 767-200
• Air Transport International (ATI)
  
  • Pilots represented by ALPA
  • Flies 8 - 767-300
  • Flies 6 - 767-200

A few spots to clear up after looking through all of this

1. Are all of the aircraft leased from Titan are all operated by Atlas?
2. Similarly are all of the aircraft leased from CAM operated by ABX or ATI?
3. I cleaned up the status of Atlas Worldwide Holdings, Titan and Atlas Air based on the company fact sheet, I think I got it right.

"Oh! What A Tangled Web We Weave"
They have many ways to distribute assets and expense!
Great explanation wjcandee and great Outline USairkid

Atlas also has secured 20 additional 767 registrations that are currently in limbo.

[quote="USAirKid"]Thank you wjcandee your quick and dirty is really more detailed than most people's well put together replies!

I started a bit of an outline to clear it up for me and I'm putting what I came up with here for others:

Thank you both. Very informative and much appreciated.

Ontario to Honolulu turns beginning this Spring.

Whiplash6 wrote:

Ontario to Honolulu turns beginning this Spring.

Do you know if all of the Prime Air aircraft are ETOPS certified?

travaz wrote:

Whiplash6 wrote:

Ontario to Honolulu turns beginning this Spring.

Do you know if all of the Prime Air aircraft are ETOPS certified?

I can only speak to Atlas’ and those are all ETOPS. I’d imagine ATSG is the same.

I just ordered something that shipped from the Murfreesboro, TN fulfillment center, and I noticed that there were no scans in Erlanger, KY (CVG). At first I thought they might have been lost until I noticed the scan in Phoenix. I highly doubt it went by ground all the way from Murfreesboro to Phoenix. I wonder if there are currently any issues with tracking at CVG.

N383AN, the next ex AA bird for ATSG is scheduled (subject to change) into TLV on Monday morning.

ATI Amazon aircraft aren’t ETOPS. When we first started flying for AMZ, they said they didn’t want to pay for it, but I just heard a rumor three days ago that Amazon wants all aircraft ETOPS. Just a rumor at this point, so we’ll see.

Other than CONUS to HI, would Amazon's needs for ETOPs would be more TATL than TPAC?

Acey559 wrote:

ATI Amazon aircraft aren’t ETOPS. When we first started flying for AMZ, they said they didn’t want to pay for it, but I just heard a rumor three days ago that Amazon wants all aircraft ETOPS. Just a rumor at this point, so we’ll see.

That is interesting information and could be interpreted in so many ways. Lets Play A-Net! ETOPS for Hawaii. Or ETOPS for TATL. Or ETOPS for TPAC. They could support their HI customers with prime with the flights from the mainland. They could support their EU customers and 3rd party sellers (moving goods both ways) with TATL> They could support movement of goods to Amazon warehouses and other customers of the huge amount of goods that come to the USA from Asia. It could also be for the expansion of service for other non Amazon movement of freight. I have no insight or knowledge just a WAG.

USAirKid wrote:

A few spots to clear up after looking through all of this

1. Are all of the aircraft leased from Titan are all operated by Atlas?
2. Similarly are all of the aircraft leased from CAM operated by ABX or ATI?
3. I cleaned up the status of Atlas Worldwide Holdings, Titan and Atlas Air based on the company fact sheet, I think I got it right.

First, let me say that that's a wonderful outline! Turned all my verbiage into something comprehensible!

Answers to questions:

All Titan aircraft are presently operated by Atlas. Plan was for the rest of them to be so operated as well. I expect that to happen, barring some issue that is serious enough to make Amazon get someone else to operate them.

All the Amazon Air birds that are leased from CAM are operated either by ATI or ABX.

You are correct that AAWS owns Titan and Atlas Air. The 2017 Annual Report refers collectively to the single-purpose entities and such as "Titan", so I assume that Andromeda is one of those. I think it's new for 2017, so it doesn't appear on Exhibit 21.1 to the 10K. I assume it will when the 2018 Annual Report is issued.

Again, great job!!

N383an ex american airlines is now enroute from ILN to TLV for Conversion.

KLM747er

N387AM should be out on a test flight in TLV shortly

yochai wrote:

N387AM should be out on a test flight in TLV shortly

Great! And you were spot-on about the 383AN arrival in TLV today, too.

Any more word on what the delay is on N7375A?

I'm thinking 376AN is going to be done no earlier than April, so I guess a couple of Atlas birds (1511A or 1439A) will be next off the line.

(Are there aircraft in line that I'm missing that aren't for Atlas or CAM? I know that the Kalitta ones, 763CK and 764CK, are being done by Bedek at Mexicana MRO in MEX.)

N387AM completed a sucessful tets flight, N7375A is still in storage, but the 2 Atlas birds N1619A and N1487A have been moved to the conversion line earlier this week andhad work started on them.

yochai wrote:

N387AM completed a sucessful tets flight, N7375A is still in storage, but the 2 Atlas birds N1619A and N1487A have been moved to the conversion line earlier this week andhad work started on them.

Wow! If 1619 and 1487 are starting into conversion, those are the final two Atlas/Amazon aircraft to be converted by Bedek. They are number 18 and number 19 of the Atlas 20. (The 20th one, 1489, is at TPE.)

Seems like just yesterday that 307AZ was going through conversion...

N387AM in TLV earlirer this afternoon

wjcandee wrote:

yochai wrote:

N387AM completed a sucessful tets flight, N7375A is still in storage, but the 2 Atlas birds N1619A and N1487A have been moved to the conversion line earlier this week andhad work started on them.

Wow! If 1619 and 1487 are starting into conversion, those are the final two Atlas/Amazon aircraft to be converted by Bedek. They are number 18 and number 19 of the Atlas 20. (The 20th one, 1489, is at TPE.)

Seems like just yesterday that 307AZ was going through conversion...

wj I thought I read that Prime Air was shooting for 40 Aircraft?

40 total aircraft, so far at least. 20 at Atlas and 20 at ATSG. There were rumors about an additional 20 quite a while back, but I haven’t heard anything about those in quite a while.