How long will Kalitta Charters II keep the 727?

seaniez · Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:38 am

I always see them flying around on flightradar24, I was extremely excited to see that one landed at my home airport of BDL, even better is that she's an ex Pan Am bird, not only that but my own grandfather flew that very plane for Pan Am. But this wonderful company is one of the very last to operate these iconic birds so it can only be a matter of time before they are retired. I have some hope that they will stick around for at least a little while because it was not too long ago that Kalitta air retired the extremely iconic 747-200, with one or two other airlines operating them at the time.

United_fan · Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:11 pm

They've been bringing it to ROC from BDL . Of course,it's winter and the weather is lousy. Maybe by late spring it will still come in?

flyingclrs727 · Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:59 pm

Why would anyone want to fly a 727 in 2018? Aren't there 737NG's available? I would think that with the 737Max coming into airline fleets, used 737NG's should be coming available. They are much easier to support than 727's.

drdisque · Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:17 pm

They do have one 727 that is specially modified to fly race horses (I guess technically it could fly any horse and I believe it is also used for equestrian horses too I guess, but it mostly flies race horses). I believe this frame sees very little utilization but is very profitable when it does fly, so I imagine it will stay on for quite a long time, it may end up being one of the last 727's in service in the world due to its specialized role.

russyyz · Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:28 pm

There are also specialty 727's flying for "zero gravity flights" and "oil spill recovery and dispersion" that will likely be around for quite a while.

TheDBCooper · Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:30 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Why would anyone want to fly a 727 in 2018? Aren't there 737NG's available? I would think that with the 737Max coming into airline fleets, used 737NG's should be coming available. They are much easier to support than 727's.

I am glad that there are operators still choosing to in 2018. Do any enthusiasts visit A.net any more? Why the rush to see older aircraft banished from the skies?

HPRamper · Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:33 pm

drdisque wrote:
They do have one 727 that is specially modified to fly race horses (I guess technically it could fly any horse and I believe it is also used for equestrian horses too I guess, but it mostly flies race horses). I believe this frame sees very little utilization but is very profitable when it does fly, so I imagine it will stay on for quite a long time, it may end up being one of the last 727's in service in the world due to its specialized role.

The Sutton plane - I've seen it at SEA. Pretty neat to still see these old planes still flying.

Dominion301 · Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:42 pm

I love catching the now-rare 727 when I can. CargoJet still have 4 or 5 of them flying, including on the EWR-BDA run.

United737MAX · Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:43 pm

According to Wikipedia, there's no mention of retiring the Boeing 727's from Kalitta Charters, but if they were, they should at least preserve one of them for museum displays, even though there are dozens of FedEx 727's preserved throughout the USA.

bennett123 · Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:43 pm

Also M-FTOH.

TVNWZ · Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:49 pm

Air Horse One! "Flying Champions since 1969."

flyingclrs727 · Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:58 pm

TheDBCooper wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Why would anyone want to fly a 727 in 2018? Aren't there 737NG's available? I would think that with the 737Max coming into airline fleets, used 737NG's should be coming available. They are much easier to support than 727's.

I am glad that there are operators still choosing to in 2018. Do any enthusiasts visit A.net any more? Why the rush to see older aircraft banished from the skies?

Don't get me wrong. I loved the 727, but if I were the CEO of an airline, I would want to fly a more modern airframe.

DiamondFlyer · Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:05 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
TheDBCooper wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Why would anyone want to fly a 727 in 2018? Aren't there 737NG's available? I would think that with the 737Max coming into airline fleets, used 737NG's should be coming available. They are much easier to support than 727's.

I am glad that there are operators still choosing to in 2018. Do any enthusiasts visit A.net any more? Why the rush to see older aircraft banished from the skies?

Don't get me wrong. I loved the 727, but if I were the CEO of an airline, I would want to fly a more modern airframe.

Then you have no idea how these airlines work. A newer airframe would probably be the end of the airline, as they could never get the cost of the plane made up over the very limited flying they are doing.

I had heard USAJet was adding another 727 to their fleet early this year. Anyone else seen/heard about that

opticalilyushin · Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:16 pm

Maybe Iran Aseman will sell their three passenger frames soon..

canyonblue17 · Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:57 am

Here is “Air Horse One” landing at PBI with polo ponies on board.

canyonblue17 · Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:03 am

And if someone could teach me how to download photos from my email to this forum using only my
Smartphone - I could show you photos of the horses inside the aircraft.

VC10er · Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:18 am

I have to wonder what those poor horses are thinking and feeling when they are being flown...the changes in cabin pressure and G forces etc. Maybe they are sedated? Is there a horses.net?
I loved flying in a 727, if you were lucky enough to fly up front it was so quiet. Such an icon of her era when she reined the single aisle skies.
Was the #2 engine equal in thrust as #1 and #3 engines? I always wondered how that middle engine worked?

Virtual737 · Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:31 am

TVNWZ wrote:
Air Horse One! "Flying Champions since 1969."

Very good!

RalXWB · Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:41 am

I am more than surprised that there is still an active ex-PA 727 left. I mean they were already fossils when PA was still flying them....

Channex757 · Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:15 am

The Oil Spill Response aircraft will be around for quite a while yet as they were the last two 727s off the line, and have the re-engine treatment with two quieter and cleaner JT8D outboard motors. They too only do limited flying and seem to be kept in a short notice ready-to-fly condition.

Max Q · Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:19 am

VC10er wrote:
I have to wonder what those poor horses are thinking and feeling when they are being flown...the changes in cabin pressure and G forces etc. Maybe they are sedated? Is there a horses.net?
I loved flying in a 727, if you were lucky enough to fly up front it was so quiet. Such an icon of her era when she reined the single aisle skies.
Was the #2 engine equal in thrust as #1 and #3 engines? I always wondered how that middle engine worked?

No difference in thrust on the number 2
engine

You did have to be careful with a strong crosswind on take off as the center engine inlet sometimes would lack sufficient air inflow and you could get a compressor stall

This was avoided by increasing thrust on 1 and 3 normally while bringing up number 2
at a slower, more measured rate

Apart from that, not much different, as a point of trivia, the FAA were concerned that if you had a center engine failure you might not notice as there is no yaw

As a precaution they insisted on an engine failure warning light

This was installed directly in front of each pilot so he would know

CARST · Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:34 am

canyonblue17 wrote:
And if someone could teach me how to download photos from my email to this forum using only my
Smartphone - I could show you photos of the horses inside the aircraft.

There is no way to directly upload photos to the forum as it would fill the servers here too quickly (I guess)...

But there is a simple solution:

1) Download the app "imgur", the worlds number one photo sharing website...

2) Save the photos to your phone

3) Upload the photos to imgur with the imgur-app (no registration or log-in required, super easy)

4) Once uploaded click on "get share links" and choose the one for "bb-type forums" (because the new a.net is a bb-type forum).

5) Post that link into one of your a.net posts and there you have your photos visible in the forum

Meltshopmax · Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:55 pm

I hope she hangs around for a long time. When I came into the aviation world the 727 was the backbone of nearly everybody’s fleet. I like the t tails and seeing sitting on the DHL ramp (sometimes for a week) and hearing the old jt8 screem brings me back.......it’s a treat to see a 727 in a vanilla world of 320s and 737s.

Acey559 · Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:03 pm

I saw a 727 this morning while taking the bus after we landed in CVG. Such a wonderful sight/sound and I’m happy I’m able to catch a glimpse every now and again since I never had the chance to fly on one.

RetiredWeasel · Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:06 pm

Max Q wrote:

No difference in thrust on the number 2
engine

Max...I seem to recall that because of the S-duct that the #2 thrust was slightly less than 1 & 3 at the same power settings. Maybe that was just an old fart pilot legend and not in the books, but I'll accept what you remember or think.

mats01776 · Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:06 pm

I suppose the 727 needs a flight engineer in addition to the pilots.
What qualifications does the 727 flight engineer need?

A special qualification/license as a flight engineer?
Or a commercial pilot with a "type rating as a flight engineer"?

Steelhead · Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:38 pm

These 727's are mostly freighters flying on an ad-hoc basis (very low hours) or as a backup aircraft. Cost of ownership is very very low and it doesn't matter if they are inactive for days.
CargoJet in Hamilton (YHM) still has 3 active 727's. One frame is assigned to the EWR-Bermuda service, the other two are usual back-ups. For sure their time will come to an end especially if converted B-737-800F's are becoming widely available or the fuel prices go up to extreme levels again.

Let's enjoy them as long as we can: https://www.flickr.com/photos/steelhead ... /photolist

canyonblue17 · Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:07 pm

The horses don't know they are on a plane. They where blinders to restrict their view and are boarded through a ramp that is completely covered. Once on board they are strapped in kennels 3-across that are similar to the trucks used to haul them. There is plenty of food for them onboard. The flights are much more gentle than a commercial flight. Take-offs, landings and turns are much more gradual as to not upset the horses. The food is also helpful, as chewing naturally helps them with the air pressure change. This is all according to a horse pilot I have spoken with a few times.

ILNFlyer · Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:28 pm

canyonblue17 wrote:
The horses don't know they are on a plane. They where blinders to restrict their view and are boarded through a ramp that is completely covered. Once on board they are strapped in kennels 3-across that are similar to the trucks used to haul them. There is plenty of food for them onboard. The flights are much more gentle than a commercial flight. Take-offs, landings and turns are much more gradual as to not upset the horses. The food is also helpful, as chewing naturally helps them with the air pressure change. This is all according to a horse pilot I have spoken with a few times.

How did a horse get a pilot's license? :rotfl:

tjwgrr · Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:23 pm

canyonblue17 wrote:
Here is “Air Horse One” landing at PBI with polo ponies on board.

N725CK is the actual Air Horse One:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... /92782198/

MO11 · Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:30 pm

mats01776 wrote:
I suppose the 727 needs a flight engineer in addition to the pilots.
What qualifications does the 727 flight engineer need?

A special qualification/license as a flight engineer?
Or a commercial pilot with a "type rating as a flight engineer"?

A flight engineer doesn't need a pilot certificate. He/she needs a flight engineer certificate with appropriate class. It was also not uncommon to see pilots that have "aged out" continue their careers as flight engineers.

deltal1011man · Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:36 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
canyonblue17 wrote:
Here is “Air Horse One” landing at PBI with polo ponies on board.

N725CK is the actual Air Horse One:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... /92782198/

I beat the heavy checks on those bad boys are fun. Who wouldn't like pulling the floor that has been covered in horse piss/crap. :vomit:

United_fan · Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:00 pm

I saw that one landing in FLL from MSY with a load of horses in March.

71Zulu · Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:53 pm

United_fan wrote:
I saw that one landing in FLL from MSY with a load of horses in March.

Seems every west coast to FLL flight on Air Horse One stops for fuel or a horse break at MSY, must be good business at they happen fairly often. Last one was Jan 29, before that Jan 24.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Sean-SAN- · Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:31 pm

I've heard it's a very good gig for the pilots as well, the only downside being the plane always smells like horse shyt.

LAXdenizen · Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:53 am

I regularly see the Raytheon 727 in/ out of LAX. The silhouette is damn striking compared with anything else in the sky. Probably the best LAX spotting moment currently.

RetiredWeasel · Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:56 am

ILNFlyer wrote:
canyonblue17 wrote:
The horses don't know they are on a plane. They where blinders to restrict their view and are boarded through a ramp that is completely covered. Once on board they are strapped in kennels 3-across that are similar to the trucks used to haul them. There is plenty of food for them onboard. The flights are much more gentle than a commercial flight. Take-offs, landings and turns are much more gradual as to not upset the horses. The food is also helpful, as chewing naturally helps them with the air pressure change. This is all according to a horse pilot I have spoken with a few times.

How did a horse get a pilot's license?

I like ILNFlyer'x comment. He sarcastically is saying that having horses or other animals on board doesn't change your T/O, landing, cruise , decesnt or landing profiles from those that a pilot uses when flying humans.

Animals experience the same banked turns, the same air turbulence, the same hard landings that people do. And I say that as having flown several different animals in freighters and passengers on pax aircraft with the same airline. The only changes may be in the the temperatures you maintain in the cargo area and only when instructions are provided or an animal handler accompanies the animals.

Max Q · Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:20 am

RetiredWeasel wrote:
Max Q wrote:

No difference in thrust on the number 2
engine

Max...I seem to recall that because of the S-duct that the #2 thrust was slightly less than 1 & 3 at the same power settings. Maybe that was just an old fart pilot legend and not in the books, but I'll accept what you remember or think.

If i remember correctly a typical power setting for take off would be 1.97/1.99/1.97 with the higher EPR set on number two

Effectively all three engines produced the same thrust

Number two did not have a 13th stage bleed valve so if you were using it as a bleed source for pressurization the cabin would probably climb when descending after reducing power to idle, you had to push it up a bit

Number three engine did not have an engine driven hydraulic pump, that’s why we did two engine taxi using one and two

But I digress....

Max Q · Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:24 am

MO11 wrote:
mats01776 wrote:
I suppose the 727 needs a flight engineer in addition to the pilots.
What qualifications does the 727 flight engineer need?

A special qualification/license as a flight engineer?
Or a commercial pilot with a "type rating as a flight engineer"?

A flight engineer doesn't need a pilot certificate. He/she needs a flight engineer certificate with appropriate class. It was also not uncommon to see pilots that have "aged out" continue their careers as flight engineers.

All correct, my FE certificate just says
‘Flight Engineer Turbojet Powered’

RetiredWeasel · Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:13 pm

Max Q wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
Max Q wrote:

No difference in thrust on the number 2
engine

Max...I seem to recall that because of the S-duct that the #2 thrust was slightly less than 1 & 3 at the same power settings. Maybe that was just an old fart pilot legend and not in the books, but I'll accept what you remember or think.

If i remember correctly a typical power setting for take off would be 1.97/1.99/1.97 with the higher EPR set on number two

Effectively all three engines produced the same thrust

Number two did not have a 13th stage bleed valve so if you were using it as a bleed source for pressurization the cabin would probably climb when descending after reducing power to idle, you had to push it up a bit

Number three engine did not have an engine driven hydraulic pump, that’s why we did two engine taxi using one and two

But I digress....

Good memory. The 'two cent' increase in the #2 EPR is coming back to me now. Thanks.

United_fan · Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:46 pm

71Zulu wrote:
United_fan wrote:
I saw that one landing in FLL from MSY with a load of horses in March.
Seems every west coast to FLL flight on Air Horse One stops for fuel or a horse break at MSY, must be good business at they happen fairly often. Last one was Jan 29, before that Jan 24.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

It was pretty neat to see the horse trailer tractor trailers line up and off come the horses.

Meltshopmax · Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:11 pm

LOL the horses on board get better service than the last time I flew. Cough(g4) cough. When the equestrian games where in cvg fed x brought in an md11. Each horse had a self contained stall with handler included. They pulled it off with a loader and put the whole thing in the truck....had customs set up right at the end of A on the ramp. It was cool to see.

mats01776 · Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:44 pm

MO11 wrote:
A flight engineer doesn't need a pilot certificate. He/she needs a flight engineer certificate with appropriate class. It was also not uncommon to see pilots that have "aged out" continue their careers as flight engineers.

Thanks for the reply!

My questions came from reading old NTSB incident reports where most, if not all, the flight engineers appear to hold pilot's certificate.

Many many decades ago when I was a rather inept student pilot, my part-time flight instructor (not his fault, by the way) was a flight engineer on a 727, and he offered me a tour of the aircraft.

MO11 · Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:50 pm

mats01776 wrote:
MO11 wrote:
A flight engineer doesn't need a pilot certificate. He/she needs a flight engineer certificate with appropriate class. It was also not uncommon to see pilots that have "aged out" continue their careers as flight engineers.

Thanks for the reply!

My questions came from reading old NTSB incident reports where most, if not all, the flight engineers appear to hold pilot's certificate.

Many many decades ago when I was a rather inept student pilot, my part-time flight instructor (not his fault, by the way) was a flight engineer on a 727, and he offered me a tour of the aircraft.

And many decades ago, some airlines had "professional engineers", but these guys typically had an A&P.

In your instructor's case, in the days when airlines hired pilots as 727 engineers, one of the interview questions was, "How do you plan to stay current?"

tb727 · Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:40 pm

deltal1011man wrote:
tjwgrr wrote:
canyonblue17 wrote:
Here is “Air Horse One” landing at PBI with polo ponies on board.

They are gonna be around about 2 more years I am hearing. Nearly half my time in the 727 is flying the horses. I have very fond memories of those flights. It was a lot of fun and I really enjoyed it. I was supposedly on the 1st crew to fly a KY Derby Winner with Orb after the race in 2013.

N725CK is the actual Air Horse One:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... /92782198/

I beat the heavy checks on those bad boys are fun. Who wouldn't like pulling the floor that has been covered in horse piss/crap.

Part of the horse stall STC has the interior taken out every so often, forgetting the amount of time now, and doing a complete cleaning. They hose the inside out good.

tb727 · Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:41 pm

They are gonna be around about 2 more years I am hearing. Nearly half my time in the 727 is flying the horses. I have very fond memories of those flights. It was a lot of fun and I really enjoyed it. I was supposedly on the 1st crew to fly a KY Derby Winner with Orb in 2013.

Max Q · Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:15 am

tb727 wrote:
They are gonna be around about 2 more years I am hearing. Nearly half my time in the 727 is flying the horses. I have very fond memories of those flights. It was a lot of fun and I really enjoyed it. I was supposedly on the 1st crew to fly a KY Derby Winner with Orb in 2013.

You still have your hearing ?

Canuck600 · Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:43 am

Do they install any sort of "sub floor" before they move in the horse stalls to prevent leakage of fluids into the frame of the aircraft? Or would a barrier of plywood or another material not do a good enough job to prevent fluids leaking into the frame of the aircraft? I would imagine that horse urine would be pretty corrosive stuff. Or is the time/weight involved in adding sub flooring not worth it on what are pretty much disposable aircraft at this point?

tb727 · Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:42 pm

Max Q wrote:
tb727 wrote:
They are gonna be around about 2 more years I am hearing. Nearly half my time in the 727 is flying the horses. I have very fond memories of those flights. It was a lot of fun and I really enjoyed it. I was supposedly on the 1st crew to fly a KY Derby Winner with Orb in 2013.

You still have your hearing ?

I actually can’t hear anything after working there so long lol.

Canuck600 wrote:
Do they install any sort of "sub floor" before they move in the horse stalls to prevent leakage of fluids into the frame of the aircraft? Or would a barrier of plywood or another material not do a good enough job to prevent fluids leaking into the frame of the aircraft? I would imagine that horse urine would be pretty corrosive stuff. Or is the time/weight involved in adding sub flooring not worth it on what are pretty much disposable aircraft at this point?

Yes it’s a layer of heavy plastic sheeting, then special cookie sheets that the stalls are built on with layers of more plastic sheeting and thick rubber mats. On top of all that there are wood shavings that are put down on top of that and piled in the stalls. This really helps soak up liquids. After each horse is offloaded, the workers shovel up shavings and bag them and reapply new shavings.

You can see some of how the stalls are set up in this video. https://youtu.be/ATH1XDZ-Vto

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