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AAvgeek744
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:08 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:13 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Okay, but no one calls BOS / RDU / IND hubs (yet). So why would we call a city like BNA a WN hub?

I'm not calling BNA a hub, although it arguably is the way it's scheduled. I am saying WN has Hubs (BWI, MDW, STL, DAL, HOU, DEN, LAS, OAK etc) and the lengths they go to avoid saying they are "hubs" is absurd and purely a PR move to continue to feel "different".


However you want to call it, BNA should get some expansion. In the BNA thread we know they have taken on 2 more gates for a total of 12, I've not seen anything certain but there are two more gates reopening, supposedly for use by WN.. That would give them 14 gates for 100 flights. Plenty of room for a new city or two and addition flights in some already established markets.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3323
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:18 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
-Gary Kelly Q4 earnings call January 25th, 2018

"I think your view of Southwest is accurate. Some of the statistics that I remember well from 1980's when I joined is that, and those days and a much lower load factor, about 80% of our O&Ds flew non-stop and then the other 20% were split pretty evenly between through traffic and connections. And in the 80s and the 90s and really probably for early 2000s, we did not intentionally schedule for the convenience of connections. ........ So there has been a significant boost, but the non-stop versus connecting traffic hasn’t moved much at all, maybe 3 or 4 percentage points.."

In 1999 WN was 74% local. In 2017 they are 64%. What that means is that they are growing their connecting traffic about 35% faster than they are growing their local traffic.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1313
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:09 pm

AAvgeek744 wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Okay, but no one calls BOS / RDU / IND hubs (yet). So why would we call a city like BNA a WN hub?

I'm not calling BNA a hub, although it arguably is the way it's scheduled. I am saying WN has Hubs (BWI, MDW, STL, DAL, HOU, DEN, LAS, OAK etc) and the lengths they go to avoid saying they are "hubs" is absurd and purely a PR move to continue to feel "different".


However you want to call it, BNA should get some expansion. In the BNA thread we know they have taken on 2 more gates for a total of 12, I've not seen anything certain but there are two more gates reopening, supposedly for use by WN.. That would give them 14 gates for 100 flights. Plenty of room for a new city or two and addition flights in some already established markets.


Most of the gate additions in the WN system has more do with the increase of the 800/MAX8. The bigger the fleet Of 800/MAX8 gets the less Gate usage they have with the average turn times 45/55 mins. Example with one gate in 2 hours with a 700 WN can easily squeeze out 3 flights. With a 800/MAX8 that's 2 flights. So they technically need additional gate to achieve the same schedule.
Plus WN now can help use the additional gates for operational recovery.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
jplatts
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:37 am

Why does WN serve AMA, LBB, and MAF nonstop from LAS but not CRP or HRL nonstop from LAS? CRP and HRL are both in bigger metropolitan areas than AMA, LBB, and MAF are in, and in addition to that, the population of the Texas portion of the Rio Grande Valley, including the McAllen, Harlingen, and Brownsville metropolitan areas, is over 1.2 million people. CRP and HRL are also the only WN destinations in the U.S. west of the Mississippi that WN doesn't serve nonstop from LAS.
 
jplatts
Posts: 1589
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:53 am

WN used to be bigger at LAS back in 2009 than it was today, and WN used to serve ALB, JAX, ISP, MHT, ORF, PVD, and IAD nonstop from LAS 9 years ago. WN used to have 240 daily departures from LAS back in 2009, but Southwest is now down to 219 daily departures from LAS. WN added LAS-DAL nonstop service with the repeal of the Wright Amendment and LAS-ATL nonstop service with the WN-FL merger, and in addition, WN also had added nonstop service from LAS to DSM, FLL, LGB (weekend-only), MKE, MSP (seasonal), and ICT.

WN still has lots of daily nonstops to most of its California destinations, but ONT only has 4 daily nonstops in each direction to LAS due to ONT being much closer to LAS than WN's other California destinations, and LGB only has weekend-only nonstop service to LAS due to slot restrictions at LGB and WN already having lots of nonstop service to LAX, SNA, and BUR from LAS.

WN could further expand LAS again by extending LAS-MSP nonstop service to daily year-round nonstop service, by adding daily nonstop service from LAS to CVG and MEM, and by bringing back nonstop service from LAS to some of its East Coast destinations. Other possible expansion opportunities for WN at LAS include opening up a new international gateway at LAS with nonstop service to PVR and SJD, and WN adding nonstop service to Hawaii from LAS.
 
WN732
Posts: 286
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:53 am

jplatts wrote:
Why does WN serve AMA, LBB, and MAF nonstop from LAS but not CRP or HRL nonstop from LAS? CRP and HRL are both in bigger metropolitan areas than AMA, LBB, and MAF are in, and in addition to that, the population of the Texas portion of the Rio Grande Valley, including the McAllen, Harlingen, and Brownsville metropolitan areas, is over 1.2 million people. CRP and HRL are also the only WN destinations in the U.S. west of the Mississippi that WN doesn't serve nonstop from LAS.


Majority of those folks are intra Texas. The rest can easily go through DAL, AUS, or HOU.
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:00 am

jplatts wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I didn't realize WN was selling CMH connections, but it makes sense given what they're doing there.


WN could extend CMH-HOU nonstop service to year-round, and in addition to that, WN could also add CMH-LAX and CMH-SAN nonstop service. WN would be able to connect passengers to BOS and DCA through CMH from LAX and SAN (and vice versa) if Southwest adds CMH-LAX and CMH-SAN nonstop service.


Considering how WN has consolidated CAK operations into CLE and essentially moved DAY ops to CVG, I have to wonder how expanding at CMH would affect not only CVG and CLE, but also, to a lesser extent, PIT (about 3 hours east) or IND to the west.
2018: BWI, PIT, MDW, MCI, STL, DAL
 
jplatts
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:57 am

ctrabs0114 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I didn't realize WN was selling CMH connections, but it makes sense given what they're doing there.


WN could extend CMH-HOU nonstop service to year-round, and in addition to that, WN could also add CMH-LAX and CMH-SAN nonstop service. WN would be able to connect passengers to BOS and DCA through CMH from LAX and SAN (and vice versa) if Southwest adds CMH-LAX and CMH-SAN nonstop service.


Considering how WN has consolidated CAK operations into CLE and essentially moved DAY ops to CVG, I have to wonder how expanding at CMH would affect not only CVG and CLE, but also, to a lesser extent, PIT (about 3 hours east) or IND to the west.


While both CMH and PIT already have nonstop service to most of the same destinations, WN currently serves LAX nonstop from PIT but not CMH, and WN currently serves BOS, DCA, and OAK nonstop from CMH but not from PIT. The destinations that WN serves nonstop from both CMH and PIT include ATL, BWI, MDW, DAL, DEN, FLL, RSW, LAS, BNA, MSY, MCO, PHX, STL, and TPA.

WN currently serves MKE nonstop from CLE but not from CMH, CVG, or PIT, and the other destinations that WN currently serves nonstop from CLE are already served nonstop from both CMH and PIT on WN.

IND is far enough west from Greater Columbus, Central Ohio, and Eastern Ohio for IND not to be a viable alternative to CMH in Greater Columbus, Central Ohio, and Eastern Ohio as IND is 190 miles west of Downtown Columbus. In addition, the only WN destinations that WN currently serves nonstop from IND but not from CMH are HOU, MCI, LAX, EWR, and SAN, but WN did recently operate seasonal CMH-HOU nonstop service and WN would like to add CMH-LGA nonstop service if it had the slots to do so.

WN can get travelers who live in between Cincinnati and Columbus (including Dayton, OH and Wilmington, OH) to use CVG instead of CMH if it adds nonstop service to destinations from CVG other than BWI, MDW, and PHX.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1717
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:02 am

AAvgeek744 wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Okay, but no one calls BOS / RDU / IND hubs (yet). So why would we call a city like BNA a WN hub?

I'm not calling BNA a hub, although it arguably is the way it's scheduled. I am saying WN has Hubs (BWI, MDW, STL, DAL, HOU, DEN, LAS, OAK etc) and the lengths they go to avoid saying they are "hubs" is absurd and purely a PR move to continue to feel "different".


However you want to call it, BNA should get some expansion. In the BNA thread we know they have taken on 2 more gates for a total of 12, I've not seen anything certain but there are two more gates reopening, supposedly for use by WN.. That would give them 14 gates for 100 flights. Plenty of room for a new city or two and addition flights in some already established markets.


Agreed, but I don't think BNA needs too much more than it has. If they added PDX, PVD, IND, SJC and OMA, I'd be good.
 
AAvgeek744
Posts: 750
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:34 am

ADrum23 wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
I'm not calling BNA a hub, although it arguably is the way it's scheduled. I am saying WN has Hubs (BWI, MDW, STL, DAL, HOU, DEN, LAS, OAK etc) and the lengths they go to avoid saying they are "hubs" is absurd and purely a PR move to continue to feel "different".


However you want to call it, BNA should get some expansion. In the BNA thread we know they have taken on 2 more gates for a total of 12, I've not seen anything certain but there are two more gates reopening, supposedly for use by WN.. That would give them 14 gates for 100 flights. Plenty of room for a new city or two and addition flights in some already established markets.


Agreed, but I don't think BNA needs too much more than it has. If they added PDX, PVD, IND, SJC and OMA, I'd be good.


A second destination to the LA basin would be nice, even though ONT failed a long time ago. I would like to see a Caribbean destination, but I don't think it'll happen, unless it's like CUN, Saturday only.
 
jplatts
Posts: 1589
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:53 am

AAvgeek744 wrote:
A second destination to the LA basin would be nice, even though ONT failed a long time ago.


BNA is actually one of the top destinations traveled to from ONT that is not currently served nonstop from ONT, and there is an average of 114 passengers who traveled between BNA and ONT in Q2 2017. In addition, in Q2 2017, there is an average of over 1000 passengers who travel between ONT and destinations east of BNA that do not have any nonstop service out of ONT but that do have nonstop service out of BNA on WN.

Even though ONT-BNA nonstop service was a failure in the past, WN might be able to do well on ONT-BNA nonstop service if it brings back ONT-BNA nonstop service since BNA is one of the top destinations actually traveled to from ONT that doesn't currently have nonstop service from ONT and since there is significant demand from ONT to destinations east of BNA that are not currently served nonstop from ONT. WN also now has nonstop service to additional East Coast destinations from BNA, including BOS, LGA, and DCA, than was the case back when WN served ONT nonstop from BNA.
 
jb1087xna
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:30 am

LovePrunesAnet wrote:

rah rah arkansas. You (or they) are simply too close to existing, established WN airports that cater to more leisure travelers with more disposable income than XNA originating passengers, and they're at Tulsa and Kansas City. I've looked for data on business vs, leisure travelers to cite, but I'll simply have to cite conversations I've had with airport management that say the majority, perhaps VAST majority of flights to XNA are there due to business travelers inbound for walmart's home offiice on other people's money. The flights to LAX and LGA aren't really even because of Tyson's Chicken or the trucker company. it's also not from high numbers of retirees in Buena Vista jetting off to Aspen, and Boston and Seattle and Honolulu or migrant field workers jetting off to the Southern Border. It's a business market primarily.


I don't disagree with your overall point of WN's chances of serving XNA in the next few years is slim, but I would like to point out several things. "Rah rah arkansas". Well, WN does serve LIT. Granted, they seem very stagnant at the station, but they're still right at the top of marketshare of the airport. Additionally, I would not discount XNA's O/D resident passengers' disposable income when compared to LIT's travelers as well.
Overall, yes, XNA is absolutely business-oriented, but I wouldn't sweep both major airports in the state into the same bucket either.
| A319/20/21/33 | B717,722,733/5/7/8/9,744,752,762/3 | CR1/2/7/9 | D95 | E145/75 | M82/8/90 |
 
LovePrunesAnet
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:04 am

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:40 am

jb1087xna wrote:
LovePrunesAnet wrote:

rah rah arkansas. You (or they) are simply too close to existing, established WN airports that cater to more leisure travelers with more disposable income than XNA originating passengers, and they're at Tulsa and Kansas City. I've looked for data on business vs, leisure travelers to cite, but I'll simply have to cite conversations I've had with airport management that say the majority, perhaps VAST majority of flights to XNA are there due to business travelers inbound for walmart's home offiice on other people's money. The flights to LAX and LGA aren't really even because of Tyson's Chicken or the trucker company. it's also not from high numbers of retirees in Buena Vista jetting off to Aspen, and Boston and Seattle and Honolulu or migrant field workers jetting off to the Southern Border. It's a business market primarily.


I don't disagree with your overall point of WN's chances of serving XNA in the next few years is slim, but I would like to point out several things. "Rah rah arkansas". Well, WN does serve LIT. Granted, they seem very stagnant at the station, but they're still right at the top of marketshare of the airport. Additionally, I would not discount XNA's O/D resident passengers' disposable income when compared to LIT's travelers as well.
Overall, yes, XNA is absolutely business-oriented, but I wouldn't sweep both major airports in the state into the same bucket either.


i never mentioned Southwest serving Little Rock to sweep it into any bucket. First time it was even brought up was from you. LIT has the advantage of being the state capital as well.

If you want to say unlikely to have Southwest "in the next few years" at NW Arkansas Airport, that's fine. My point was it is NEVER going to happen, period, for the reasons I said. Just my opinion of course.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:23 pm

LovePrunesAnet wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:
LovePrunesAnet wrote:

rah rah arkansas. You (or they) are simply too close to existing, established WN airports that cater to more leisure travelers with more disposable income than XNA originating passengers, and they're at Tulsa and Kansas City. I've looked for data on business vs, leisure travelers to cite, but I'll simply have to cite conversations I've had with airport management that say the majority, perhaps VAST majority of flights to XNA are there due to business travelers inbound for walmart's home offiice on other people's money. The flights to LAX and LGA aren't really even because of Tyson's Chicken or the trucker company. it's also not from high numbers of retirees in Buena Vista jetting off to Aspen, and Boston and Seattle and Honolulu or migrant field workers jetting off to the Southern Border. It's a business market primarily.


I don't disagree with your overall point of WN's chances of serving XNA in the next few years is slim, but I would like to point out several things. "Rah rah arkansas". Well, WN does serve LIT. Granted, they seem very stagnant at the station, but they're still right at the top of marketshare of the airport. Additionally, I would not discount XNA's O/D resident passengers' disposable income when compared to LIT's travelers as well.
Overall, yes, XNA is absolutely business-oriented, but I wouldn't sweep both major airports in the state into the same bucket either.


i never mentioned Southwest serving Little Rock to sweep it into any bucket. First time it was even brought up was from you. LIT has the advantage of being the state capital as well.

If you want to say unlikely to have Southwest "in the next few years" at NW Arkansas Airport, that's fine. My point was it is NEVER going to happen, period, for the reasons I said. Just my opinion of course.


The demand for WN service out of LIT did decrease with WN entering MEM through the WN-FL merger, with the repeal of the Wright Amendment, and with WN adding nonstop service from DAL to BWI, MDW, MEM, and DCA after the repeal of the Wright Amendment. The number of passengers traveling to, from, or through LIT on WN decreased from 662,000 passengers per year in October 2013 to 577,000 passengers per year in September 2014 to 516,000 passengers per year in October 2015.

On the other hand, there is still demand for Southwest Airlines service out of LIT with Southwest having served LIT for almost 34 years. The BTS statistics show over 102,000 passengers a year who traveled on the WN DAL-LIT nonstop flights between November 2016 and October 2017, but some of those customers are connecting at DAL to other WN destinations. On the other hand, there is an average of only 148 passengers per day in Q2 2017 who are traveling solely between DAL and LIT according to the DOT Domestic Consumer Airfare Report.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:15 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
At the risk of being cynical, WN going into Alaska would almost be as risky as, say, restarting KPIT-KPHL (which didn't exactly end well for WN). What destinations could WN operate to Anchorage that AS doesn't already serve?


WN could serve SMF, OAK, SJC, DEN, and MCI nonstop from ANC if it enters the ANC market, and AS does not currently serve ANC nonstop from SMF, OAK, SJC, DEN or MCI.

In addition, WN could also serve LAS, PHX, and MDW nonstop from ANC if it enters the ANC market, but MDW is currently the largest WN station, LAS is currently the 3rd largest WN station, and PHX is currently the 6th largest WN station. There are a lot of customers in Greater Las Vegas, Greater Phoenix, and Greater Chicago who are loyal to Southwest Airlines, and in addition, there are destinations that WN serves nonstop from PHX that none of the US3 serve nonstop from PHX. WN would also be able to connect passengers to destinations further east from ANC through LAS, PHX, and MDW if WN added nonstop service from ANC to LAS, PHX, and MDW.

WN could also go to SAN nonstop from ANC if it starts service out of ANC since WN has recently been expanding its SAN operation in order to better compete against AS on routes between SAN and destinations within the contiguous U.S., since WN has an established customer base at SAN, since WN has been at SAN for almost 36 years (WN's 36th anniversary at SAN is tomorrow), and since there are many San Diegans who prefer to fly on WN over AS.
 
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southwest1675
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:45 pm

I think BNA could get some LUV.
 
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southwest1675
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:46 pm

jplatts wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
A second destination to the LA basin would be nice, even though ONT failed a long time ago.


BNA is actually one of the top destinations traveled to from ONT that is not currently served nonstop from ONT, and there is an average of 114 passengers who traveled between BNA and ONT in Q2 2017. In addition, in Q2 2017, there is an average of over 1000 passengers who travel between ONT and destinations east of BNA that do not have any nonstop service out of ONT but that do have nonstop service out of BNA on WN.

Even though ONT-BNA nonstop service was a failure in the past, WN might be able to do well on ONT-BNA nonstop service if it brings back ONT-BNA nonstop service since BNA is one of the top destinations actually traveled to from ONT that doesn't currently have nonstop service from ONT and since there is significant demand from ONT to destinations east of BNA that are not currently served nonstop from ONT. WN also now has nonstop service to additional East Coast destinations from BNA, including BOS, LGA, and DCA, than was the case back when WN served ONT nonstop from BNA.


They did BNA-ONT in the early to mid 2000s I believe.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:54 pm

southwest1675 wrote:
I think BNA could get some LUV.


There are only 6 airports served by WN that currently do not have nonstop service out of BNA on WN and that have nonstop service out of BNA on an airline other than WN, and these destinations are ATL, CVG, EWR, SFO, SLC, and IAD. However, WN does already serve NYC nonstop from BNA through LGA, the San Francisco Bay area nonstop from BNA through OAK, and Washington, DC nonstop through DCA and BWI. The only remaining markets that WN does not serve nonstop from BNA that have nonstop service out of BNA on other airlines are ATL, CVG, and SLC, but all 3 of these destinations are DL hubs (and were DL hubs prior to the DL-NW merger) and DL serves all 3 of these destinations nonstop from BNA.

BNA is one of the few markets where WN has over 50% market share, and WN also has significantly greater market share at BNA than DL does.

Will WN ever add nonstop service from BNA to ATL, CVG, and SLC?
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:57 pm

jb1087xna wrote:
LovePrunesAnet wrote:

rah rah arkansas. You (or they) are simply too close to existing, established WN airports that cater to more leisure travelers with more disposable income than XNA originating passengers, and they're at Tulsa and Kansas City. I've looked for data on business vs, leisure travelers to cite, but I'll simply have to cite conversations I've had with airport management that say the majority, perhaps VAST majority of flights to XNA are there due to business travelers inbound for walmart's home offiice on other people's money. The flights to LAX and LGA aren't really even because of Tyson's Chicken or the trucker company. it's also not from high numbers of retirees in Buena Vista jetting off to Aspen, and Boston and Seattle and Honolulu or migrant field workers jetting off to the Southern Border. It's aml business market primarily.


I don't disagree with your overall point of WN's chances of serving XNA in the next few years is slim, but I would like to point out several things. "Rah rah arkansas". Well, WN does serve LIT. Granted, they seem very stagnant at the station, but they're still right at the top of marketshare of the airport. Additionally, I would not discount XNA's O/D resident passengers' disposable income when compared to LIT's travelers as well.
Overall, yes, XNA is absolutely business-oriented, but I wouldn't sweep both major airports in the state into the same bucket either.


We were having a discussion somewhere else about how the massive influx of Texas kids to the University of Arkansas was jacking up the traffic counts on I-49 from I-40 to Fayetteville. Those kids are flush with plenty of Mom and Dad's money and why Arkansas should get Ft. Smith to Texarkana done with tolls. Arkansas admitted a record number of in state students last year and they were still outnumbered by incoming freshmen from Texas. Anyhow, it lead to where folks were moving in from and it produced this:

26.9% - rural, nonmetro areas in the US (admittedly not very helpful, but I would imagine the primary state here is Arkansas)
7%- Little Rock metro
7%- Asia
4.8%- DFW
4.4%- Fort Smith metro
3%- Tulsa
2.3%- Central America
2.14%- Kansas City
2.13%- Joplin
2%- Los Angeles

The Asian number stood out. Anyway, the point is that NWA is now becoming more than Walmart. The Hospitals are growing, new ones planned like Arkansas Childrens. All kind of things outside of Walmart are growing and flourishing. Walmart just cut 500 jobs in what has become an annual thing, the reaction was, Meh. WalMart is also about to drop billions for a whole new HQ campus that's expected to bring some stuff based elsewhere to NWA. Outsider's really must seperately NWA from what they 'think' Arkansas is.

So, yeah, I think that NWA will be as large as Little Rock and Tulsa and can no longer be considered as a nice little bonus for Tulsa but a market where a lack of a presence is bad business.
Last edited by WaywardMemphian on Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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southwest1675
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:00 pm

jplatts wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:
I think BNA could get some LUV.


There are only 6 airports served by WN that currently do not have nonstop service out of BNA on WN and that have nonstop service out of BNA on an airline other than WN, and these destinations are ATL, CVG, EWR, SFO, SLC, and IAD. However, WN does already serve NYC nonstop from BNA through LGA, the San Francisco Bay area nonstop from BNA through OAK, and Washington, DC nonstop through DCA and BWI. The only remaining markets that WN does not serve nonstop from BNA that have nonstop service out of BNA on other airlines are ATL, CVG, and SLC, but all 3 of these destinations are DL hubs (and were DL hubs prior to the DL-NW merger) and DL serves all 3 of these destinations nonstop from BNA.

BNA is one of the few markets where WN has over 50% market share, and WN also has significantly greater market share at BNA than DL does.

Will WN ever add nonstop service from BNA to ATL, CVG, and SLC?


All possible, but I think SLC would probably be the most likely out of those 3.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:14 pm

jplatts wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
At the risk of being cynical, WN going into Alaska would almost be as risky as, say, restarting KPIT-KPHL (which didn't exactly end well for WN). What destinations could WN operate to Anchorage that AS doesn't already serve?


WN could serve SMF, OAK, SJC, DEN, and MCI nonstop from ANC if it enters the ANC market, and AS does not currently serve ANC nonstop from SMF, OAK, SJC, DEN or MCI.


hahahhahahaha, MCI-ANC?!?!?! This is a joke right?
DL DM, AA Gold 2018: AMS, ATL, AUS, BOS, BWI, CDG, CLT, CMN, DCA, DFW, DTW, EWR, FLL, FRA, HAV, HPN, JFK, JNB, IAD, IAH, IND, LAX, LGA, LHR, LOS, MAD, MCO, MIA, MSP, ORD, PBI, PHL, PVD, SAN, SEA, SJD, SLC, SFO, STL, TPA, TXL, ZRH....Loading....
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:20 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
jplatts wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
At the risk of being cynical, WN going into Alaska would almost be as risky as, say, restarting KPIT-KPHL (which didn't exactly end well for WN). What destinations could WN operate to Anchorage that AS doesn't already serve?


WN could serve SMF, OAK, SJC, DEN, and MCI nonstop from ANC if it enters the ANC market, and AS does not currently serve ANC nonstop from SMF, OAK, SJC, DEN or MCI.


hahahhahahaha, MCI-ANC?!?!?! This is a joke right?


MCI is closer to ANC than MDW is, and MDW is actually closer to ANC than STL is. AS also flies Boeing 737-800 planes nonstop between ANC and ORD, and ANC-MDW is within the range of Boeing 737s.

WN also does nonstop service to ABQ and IND from MCI, but not from STL, and in addition, WN has more nonstop service to DAL and DEN from MCI than it does from STL.
 
mtnwest1979
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:25 pm

^^^^Ugh, please don't extort a reply. ;)
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:36 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I didn't realize WN was selling CMH connections, but it makes sense given what they're doing there.


WN could extend CMH-HOU nonstop service to year-round, and in addition to that, WN could also add CMH-LAX and CMH-SAN nonstop service. WN would be able to connect passengers to BOS and DCA through CMH from LAX and SAN (and vice versa) if Southwest adds CMH-LAX and CMH-SAN nonstop service.


Considering how WN has consolidated CAK operations into CLE and essentially moved DAY ops to CVG, I have to wonder how expanding at CMH would affect not only CVG and CLE, but also, to a lesser extent, PIT (about 3 hours east) or IND to the west.
I doubt it was have much effect on CLE or CVG and no noticeable effect on IND or PIT. CMH is already the largest WN operation in Ohio/NKY, so any expansion is going to be to destinations not served out of CVG or CLE.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:24 pm

jplatts wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
At the risk of being cynical, WN going into Alaska would almost be as risky as, say, restarting KPIT-KPHL (which didn't exactly end well for WN). What destinations could WN operate to Anchorage that AS doesn't already serve?


WN could serve SMF, OAK, SJC, DEN, and MCI nonstop from ANC if it enters the ANC market, and AS does not currently serve ANC nonstop from SMF, OAK, SJC, DEN or MCI.



Southwest has said on the record multiple times they are not running anymore connections (besides what they already have) through MCI so MCI-ANC obviously isnt happening. lol

jplatts wrote:

WN also does nonstop service to ABQ and IND from MCI, but not from STL, and in addition, WN has more nonstop service to DAL and DEN from MCI than it does from STL.


What does the amount of flights they have to DEN and DAL have to do with running a flight to ANC?
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:20 pm

737tanker wrote:
Additionally I remember Herb Kelleher telling my upgrade class in January 2000 that one of the biggest mistakes that he made at Southwest was pulling out of ANC.

Ummm...WN never served ANC...
But if you're talking about Morris Air...
 
dc10lover
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:37 pm

jplatts wrote:
There are over 3000 passengers per day who travel between ONT and destinations not currently served nonstop from ONT according to the DOT Domestic Airline Consumer Report, and the top destinations traveled to from ONT that are not currently served nonstop from ONT include MCI, STL, HOU, BNA, and BWI. WN does have opportunities to further expand at ONT, and WN could add nonstop service from ONT to BWI, HNL, HOU, MCI, BNA, and STL.

Sun Country should do ONT - MSP. United ONT - IAH. Southwest ONT - MCI / STL. B6 ONT - BOS.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of.
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:45 pm

jplatts wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:
I think BNA could get some LUV.


There are only 6 airports served by WN that currently do not have nonstop service out of BNA on WN and that have nonstop service out of BNA on an airline other than WN, and these destinations are ATL, CVG, EWR, SFO, SLC, and IAD. However, WN does already serve NYC nonstop from BNA through LGA, the San Francisco Bay area nonstop from BNA through OAK, and Washington, DC nonstop through DCA and BWI. The only remaining markets that WN does not serve nonstop from BNA that have nonstop service out of BNA on other airlines are ATL, CVG, and SLC, but all 3 of these destinations are DL hubs (and were DL hubs prior to the DL-NW merger) and DL serves all 3 of these destinations nonstop from BNA.

BNA is one of the few markets where WN has over 50% market share, and WN also has significantly greater market share at BNA than DL does.

Will WN ever add nonstop service from BNA to ATL, CVG, and SLC?


They dropped EWR, a little surprising to me. LGA must be a much better fit. I can't see them adding to any of the Delta hubs you list. They can overfly ATL to most of the Florida destinations. Not sure what the PDEW is to the other two, but they probably don't have much local traffic. ONT, SJC, PDX would work I think, if AS doesn't get PDX first. Eastbound, maybe return to PVD or BDL. The Nashville boom might throw some pax that direction.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:58 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
jplatts wrote:

WN could extend CMH-HOU nonstop service to year-round, and in addition to that, WN could also add CMH-LAX and CMH-SAN nonstop service. WN would be able to connect passengers to BOS and DCA through CMH from LAX and SAN (and vice versa) if Southwest adds CMH-LAX and CMH-SAN nonstop service.


Considering how WN has consolidated CAK operations into CLE and essentially moved DAY ops to CVG, I have to wonder how expanding at CMH would affect not only CVG and CLE, but also, to a lesser extent, PIT (about 3 hours east) or IND to the west.
I doubt it was have much effect on CLE or CVG and no noticeable effect on IND or PIT. CMH is already the largest WN operation in Ohio/NKY, so any expansion is going to be to destinations not served out of CVG or CLE.


I can't see them halting growth completely at CMH. They were publicly excited last year at the 25th anniversary celebration about making WN a "hometown airline" for CMH.

The feeling in the Ohio threads has been CVG might grow to a CLE-sized station someday, but all of the three Cs should be able to do fine on their own.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:27 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest has said on the record multiple times they are not running anymore connections (besides what they already have) through MCI so MCI-ANC obviously isnt happening. lol


Southwest actually added nonstop service from MCI to AUS, LGA, and SAT within the last 3 years, and in addition, Southwest had said this prior to the November 7, 2017 election that was in favor of a new terminal at MCI. Southwest does not serve CLT, CVG, DTW, EWR, PHL, RDU, SFO, SLC, and IAD nonstop from MCI, but AA serves its PHL and CLT hubs nonstop from MCI, DL serves its CVG, DTW, and SLC hubs nonstop from MCI, UA does serve its EWR, SFO, and IAD hubs nonstop from MCI, and F9 will be starting MCI-RDU nonstop service on April 9th.

The plans for the new MCI terminal haven't been finalized yet, but the new MCI terminal is currently planned to be completed by the end of 2021. WN will also be taking delivery of additional 737 MAX 7 planes in 2023 and 2024, and WN also already has plans to take delivery of over 197 Boeing MAX 8 planes.

WN does still have opportunities to add nonstop service from MCI to CLT, CVG, PHL, ONT, RDU, and SJC, but I am unsure if these adds will occur prior to the opening of the new terminal at MCI.

ONT, RDU, and SJC are three of the top destinations actually traveled to from MCI that are not currently served nonstop from MCI on any airline, but F9 already has plans to add MCI-RDU nonstop service, and WN could also possibly add MCI-ONT and MCI-SJC nonstop service. WN could also add MCI-RDU nonstop service if demand is there for additional MCI-RDU nonstop service beyond the already announced F9 MCI-RDU nonstop service since WN still has significant market share at RDU, even with the DL focus city operation at RDU.

CVG is far enough from MCI for F9 to add MCI-CVG nonstop service if the demand is there for additional nonstop service to CVG from MCI, but WN could add MCI-CVG nonstop service if the demand is there for additional MCI-CVG nonstop service since WN has over 50% market share in the MCI market, since F9 has never served CVG nonstop from MCI, since there are travelers in the Kansas City area who prefer to fly on WN over DL or F9, since WN currently serves DL's ATL, MSP, LAX, LGA, and SEA hubs nonstop from MCI, since WN is already willing to compete against DL on nonstop service from MCI to other DL hubs, since WN does serve other destinations in the Midwest nonstop from MCI, and since WN already does connect passengers to and from other destinations in the Midwest (including MSP, MKE, and IND) through MCI.

PHL already does have nonstop service from MCI on AA and F9, but WN could possibly serve PHL nonstop from MCI since WN still has gates that are not fully utilized at PHL, since WN has more than enough room to further expand at PHL, since PHL is one of the top destinations actually traveled to from MCI that WN does not currently serve nonstop from MCI, since WN serves other major East Coast destinations nonstop from MCI (including ATL, BWI, BOS, FLL, LGA, MCO, TPA, and DCA), and since there are travelers in the Kansas City area who prefer to fly on WN over AA or F9.

Jshank83 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
WN also does nonstop service to ABQ and IND from MCI, but not from STL, and in addition, WN has more nonstop service to DAL and DEN from MCI than it does from STL.


What does the amount of flights they have to DEN and DAL have to do with running a flight to ANC?


The point that I was trying to make is that WN has more daily nonstops to MDW, DAL, and DEN from MCI than it does from STL, and in addition, WN also serves ABQ and IND nonstop from MCI but not from STL. In addition, while Southwest is unlikely to ever serve ANC nonstop from MCI and while MCI is unlikely to have any nonstop service to ANC on any airline, MCI is within the range of Boeing 737's from ANC.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:15 pm

jplatts wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest has said on the record multiple times they are not running anymore connections (besides what they already have) through MCI so MCI-ANC obviously isnt happening. lol


Southwest actually added nonstop service from MCI to AUS, LGA, and SAT within the last 3 years, and in addition, Southwest had said this prior to the November 7, 2017 election that was in favor of a new terminal at MCI. Southwest does not serve CLT, CVG, DTW, EWR, PHL, RDU, SFO, SLC, and IAD nonstop from MCI, but AA serves its PHL and CLT hubs nonstop from MCI, DL serves its CVG, DTW, and SLC hubs nonstop from MCI, UA does serve its EWR, SFO, and IAD hubs nonstop from MCI, and F9 will be starting MCI-RDU nonstop service on April 9th.

The plans for the new MCI terminal haven't been finalized yet, but the new MCI terminal is currently planned to be completed by the end of 2021. WN will also be taking delivery of additional 737 MAX 7 planes in 2023 and 2024, and WN also already has plans to take delivery of over 197 Boeing MAX 8 planes.

WN does still have opportunities to add nonstop service from MCI to CLT, CVG, PHL, ONT, RDU, and SJC, but I am unsure if these adds will occur prior to the opening of the new terminal at MCI.

ONT, RDU, and SJC are three of the top destinations actually traveled to from MCI that are not currently served nonstop from MCI on any airline, but F9 already has plans to add MCI-RDU nonstop service, and WN could also possibly add MCI-ONT and MCI-SJC nonstop service. WN could also add MCI-RDU nonstop service if demand is there for additional MCI-RDU nonstop service beyond the already announced F9 MCI-RDU nonstop service since WN still has significant market share at RDU, even with the DL focus city operation at RDU.

CVG is far enough from MCI for F9 to add MCI-CVG nonstop service if the demand is there for additional nonstop service to CVG from MCI, but WN could add MCI-CVG nonstop service if the demand is there for additional MCI-CVG nonstop service since WN has over 50% market share in the MCI market, since F9 has never served CVG nonstop from MCI, since there are travelers in the Kansas City area who prefer to fly on WN over DL or F9, since WN currently serves DL's ATL, MSP, LAX, LGA, and SEA hubs nonstop from MCI, since WN is already willing to compete against DL on nonstop service from MCI to other DL hubs, since WN does serve other destinations in the Midwest nonstop from MCI, and since WN already does connect passengers to and from other destinations in the Midwest (including MSP, MKE, and IND) through MCI.

PHL already does have nonstop service from MCI on AA and F9, but WN could possibly serve PHL nonstop from MCI since WN still has gates that are not fully utilized at PHL, since WN has more than enough room to further expand at PHL, since PHL is one of the top destinations actually traveled to from MCI that WN does not currently serve nonstop from MCI, since WN serves other major East Coast destinations nonstop from MCI (including ATL, BWI, BOS, FLL, LGA, MCO, TPA, and DCA), and since there are travelers in the Kansas City area who prefer to fly on WN over AA or F9.

Jshank83 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
WN also does nonstop service to ABQ and IND from MCI, but not from STL, and in addition, WN has more nonstop service to DAL and DEN from MCI than it does from STL.


What does the amount of flights they have to DEN and DAL have to do with running a flight to ANC?


The point that I was trying to make is that WN has more daily nonstops to MDW, DAL, and DEN from MCI than it does from STL, and in addition, WN also serves ABQ and IND nonstop from MCI but not from STL. In addition, while Southwest is unlikely to ever serve ANC nonstop from MCI and while MCI is unlikely to have any nonstop service to ANC on any airline, MCI is within the range of Boeing 737's from ANC.


So what does that have to do with MCI-ANC? Where did anyone bring up anything about MCI-DAL/MDW (and that it is more than STL)? What does it add to this convo at all? If anything that means MCI-ANC is less likely since they have more flights to DEN and could connect through to it.

The top of this was me saying MCI-ANC won't happen because they are only going to start new routes from MCI that are mostly O&D at this point. You wrote 5 paragraphs that listed off a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with MCI-ANC at all, so I have no clue what the point of all that was.

Why in the world would WN add CVG-MCI before 10 stations bigger than MCI, when CVG only has 3 routes on WN at the moment? They aren't going to skip over all those other ones to add a route to MCI, which again is being slowed down on connecting opportunites, on a route that will have a lot of connecting passengers.

You always spew off all these stats that don't add to the convo and no one asked for and it gets tiresome and just mucks up the page. Sorry to be frank about it but you type out paragraphs of info about Points A to Point B (a lot of which are not even in the conversation) when you could get your point across in 1 or 2 sentences and would make your thoughts a lot easier to follow and people would take you more seriously.

For example, If someone is asking about ANC flights on WN there is no reason AA flights from MCI-PHL need to be brought into the convo. I think you start with a good stat but then you keep expanding on the orginal stat into another stat, into another stat, and so on, until you are on a stat that is way too far removed from the convo.

Just my two cents, you can take it as you want.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:20 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:

Considering how WN has consolidated CAK operations into CLE and essentially moved DAY ops to CVG, I have to wonder how expanding at CMH would affect not only CVG and CLE, but also, to a lesser extent, PIT (about 3 hours east) or IND to the west.
I doubt it was have much effect on CLE or CVG and no noticeable effect on IND or PIT. CMH is already the largest WN operation in Ohio/NKY, so any expansion is going to be to destinations not served out of CVG or CLE.


I can't see them halting growth completely at CMH. They were publicly excited last year at the 25th anniversary celebration about making WN a "hometown airline" for CMH.

The feeling in the Ohio threads has been CVG might grow to a CLE-sized station someday, but all of the three Cs should be able to do fine on their own.


The top destinations from CMH that WN does not currently serve nonstop from CMH are CLT, HOU, LAX, MSP, LGA, EWR, PHL, and SAN, and I could see WN adding year-round CMH-HOU nonstop service along with CMH-LAX and CMH-SAN nonstop service.

WN would like to add CMH-LGA nonstop service if it had the slots at LGA to do so. Is there enough demand for WN to add CMH-EWR nonstop service if WN does not add CMH-LGA nonstop service?

There is more O&D demand to MSP from CLE and IND than there is from CMH, and in addition to that, WN will have 6 daily nonstops in each direction between CMH and MDW in Summer 2018, WN will have 8 daily nonstops in each direction between MSP and MDW in Summer 2018, and WN can easily connect passengers to MSP from IND through MDW.

AA already has plenty of nonstop flights between CMH and CLT, and in addition, WN can connect passengers from CMH to CLT through BWI and UA can connect passengers from CMH to CLT through IAD. There is already more than enough room on the AA CMH-CLT nonstops to cover the O&D demand between CMH and CLT, and in addition, there are many travelers in Greater Charlotte who prefer to fly on AA over WN.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:00 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
So what does that have to do with MCI-ANC? Where did anyone bring up anything about MCI-DAL/MDW (and that it is more than STL)? What does it add to this convo at all? If anything that means MCI-ANC is less likely since they have more flights to DEN and could connect through to it.

The top of this was me saying MCI-ANC won't happen because they are only going to start new routes from MCI that are mostly O&D at this point. You wrote 5 paragraphs that listed off a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with MCI-ANC at all, so I have no clue what the point of all that was.

For example, If someone is asking about ANC flights on WN there is no reason AA flights from MCI-PHL need to be brought into the convo. I think you start with a good stat but then you keep expanding on the orginal stat into another stat, into another stat, and so on, until you are on a stat that is way too far removed from the convo.


The possibility of connections onto WN flights to destinations further east through MCI might be there if WN adds MCI-ANC nonstop service. In addition, I was mentioning the other destinations as a response to your point about WN having said on the record multiple times they are not running anymore connections (besides what they already have) through MCI.

Jshank83 wrote:
Why in the world would WN add CVG-MCI before 10 stations bigger than MCI, when CVG only has 3 routes on WN at the moment? They aren't going to skip over all those other ones to add a route to MCI, which again is being slowed down on connecting opportunites, on a route that will have a lot of connecting passengers.


I agree with your point, especially since WN would be skipping over markets in between MCI and CVG that WN serves nonstop from STL if WN adds MCI-CVG nonstop service prior to adding STL-CVG nonstop service. WN would also be able to connect passengers between CVG and MCI through STL if it adds STL-CVG nonstop service, and WN also has the option of doing 1-stop direct flights with no change of plane between CVG and MCI if it adds CVG-STL nonstop service. On the other hand, WN could add MCI-CVG nonstop service in order to defend WN's market share at MCI, and MCI is also far enough from CVG for F9 to possibly add MCI-CVG nonstop service if WN does not add MCI-CVG nonstop service.

WN did start service out of MKE on November 1, 2009 with nonstop service to MCI along with BWI, LAS, MCO, PHX, and TPA, and WN did go to MCI nonstop from MKE before going to STL nonstop from MKE. However, WN started MCI-MKE nonstop service prior to the AA dehubbing at STL, prior to the WN-FL merger, and prior to WN adding STL-DSM and STL-ICT nonstop service.

STL is too close to CVG for F9 to add STL-CVG nonstop service, and WN would also be able to connect passengers to destinations that are not served nonstop from CVG or MDW, including DSM, LIT, TUL, and ICT, if it adds STL-CVG nonstop service. In addition, WN would be able to connect passengers to at least AUS, DAL, DEN, HOU, LAS, LAX, MSY, OKC, OMA, SAT, and SAN through STL if it adds STL-CVG nonstop service.

WN would be able to connect passengers to WN domestic destinations west of the Rockies from CVG through DEN if it adds CVG-DEN nonstop service, and WN would also be able to connect passengers to PVR and SJD from CVG through DEN if it adds CVG-DEN nonstop service.
 
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southwest1675
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:11 pm

AAvgeek744 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:
I think BNA could get some LUV.


There are only 6 airports served by WN that currently do not have nonstop service out of BNA on WN and that have nonstop service out of BNA on an airline other than WN, and these destinations are ATL, CVG, EWR, SFO, SLC, and IAD. However, WN does already serve NYC nonstop from BNA through LGA, the San Francisco Bay area nonstop from BNA through OAK, and Washington, DC nonstop through DCA and BWI. The only remaining markets that WN does not serve nonstop from BNA that have nonstop service out of BNA on other airlines are ATL, CVG, and SLC, but all 3 of these destinations are DL hubs (and were DL hubs prior to the DL-NW merger) and DL serves all 3 of these destinations nonstop from BNA.

BNA is one of the few markets where WN has over 50% market share, and WN also has significantly greater market share at BNA than DL does.

Will WN ever add nonstop service from BNA to ATL, CVG, and SLC?


They dropped EWR, a little surprising to me. LGA must be a much better fit. I can't see them adding to any of the Delta hubs you list. They can overfly ATL to most of the Florida destinations. Not sure what the PDEW is to the other two, but they probably don't have much local traffic. ONT, SJC, PDX would work I think, if AS doesn't get PDX first. Eastbound, maybe return to PVD or BDL. The Nashville boom might throw some pax that direction.


Supposedly the numbers between BDL and BNA are pretty good.
 
N383SW
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:30 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest has said on the record multiple times they are not running anymore connections (besides what they already have) through MCI so MCI-ANC obviously isnt happening. lol


Southwest actually added nonstop service from MCI to AUS, LGA, and SAT within the last 3 years, and in addition, Southwest had said this prior to the November 7, 2017 election that was in favor of a new terminal at MCI. Southwest does not serve CLT, CVG, DTW, EWR, PHL, RDU, SFO, SLC, and IAD nonstop from MCI, but AA serves its PHL and CLT hubs nonstop from MCI, DL serves its CVG, DTW, and SLC hubs nonstop from MCI, UA does serve its EWR, SFO, and IAD hubs nonstop from MCI, and F9 will be starting MCI-RDU nonstop service on April 9th.

The plans for the new MCI terminal haven't been finalized yet, but the new MCI terminal is currently planned to be completed by the end of 2021. WN will also be taking delivery of additional 737 MAX 7 planes in 2023 and 2024, and WN also already has plans to take delivery of over 197 Boeing MAX 8 planes.

WN does still have opportunities to add nonstop service from MCI to CLT, CVG, PHL, ONT, RDU, and SJC, but I am unsure if these adds will occur prior to the opening of the new terminal at MCI.

ONT, RDU, and SJC are three of the top destinations actually traveled to from MCI that are not currently served nonstop from MCI on any airline, but F9 already has plans to add MCI-RDU nonstop service, and WN could also possibly add MCI-ONT and MCI-SJC nonstop service. WN could also add MCI-RDU nonstop service if demand is there for additional MCI-RDU nonstop service beyond the already announced F9 MCI-RDU nonstop service since WN still has significant market share at RDU, even with the DL focus city operation at RDU.

CVG is far enough from MCI for F9 to add MCI-CVG nonstop service if the demand is there for additional nonstop service to CVG from MCI, but WN could add MCI-CVG nonstop service if the demand is there for additional MCI-CVG nonstop service since WN has over 50% market share in the MCI market, since F9 has never served CVG nonstop from MCI, since there are travelers in the Kansas City area who prefer to fly on WN over DL or F9, since WN currently serves DL's ATL, MSP, LAX, LGA, and SEA hubs nonstop from MCI, since WN is already willing to compete against DL on nonstop service from MCI to other DL hubs, since WN does serve other destinations in the Midwest nonstop from MCI, and since WN already does connect passengers to and from other destinations in the Midwest (including MSP, MKE, and IND) through MCI.

PHL already does have nonstop service from MCI on AA and F9, but WN could possibly serve PHL nonstop from MCI since WN still has gates that are not fully utilized at PHL, since WN has more than enough room to further expand at PHL, since PHL is one of the top destinations actually traveled to from MCI that WN does not currently serve nonstop from MCI, since WN serves other major East Coast destinations nonstop from MCI (including ATL, BWI, BOS, FLL, LGA, MCO, TPA, and DCA), and since there are travelers in the Kansas City area who prefer to fly on WN over AA or F9.

Jshank83 wrote:

What does the amount of flights they have to DEN and DAL have to do with running a flight to ANC?


The point that I was trying to make is that WN has more daily nonstops to MDW, DAL, and DEN from MCI than it does from STL, and in addition, WN also serves ABQ and IND nonstop from MCI but not from STL. In addition, while Southwest is unlikely to ever serve ANC nonstop from MCI and while MCI is unlikely to have any nonstop service to ANC on any airline, MCI is within the range of Boeing 737's from ANC.


So what does that have to do with MCI-ANC? Where did anyone bring up anything about MCI-DAL/MDW (and that it is more than STL)? What does it add to this convo at all? If anything that means MCI-ANC is less likely since they have more flights to DEN and could connect through to it.

The top of this was me saying MCI-ANC won't happen because they are only going to start new routes from MCI that are mostly O&D at this point. You wrote 5 paragraphs that listed off a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with MCI-ANC at all, so I have no clue what the point of all that was.

Why in the world would WN add CVG-MCI before 10 stations bigger than MCI, when CVG only has 3 routes on WN at the moment? They aren't going to skip over all those other ones to add a route to MCI, which again is being slowed down on connecting opportunites, on a route that will have a lot of connecting passengers.

You always spew off all these stats that don't add to the convo and no one asked for and it gets tiresome and just mucks up the page. Sorry to be frank about it but you type out paragraphs of info about Points A to Point B (a lot of which are not even in the conversation) when you could get your point across in 1 or 2 sentences and would make your thoughts a lot easier to follow and people would take you more seriously.

For example, If someone is asking about ANC flights on WN there is no reason AA flights from MCI-PHL need to be brought into the convo. I think you start with a good stat but then you keep expanding on the orginal stat into another stat, into another stat, and so on, until you are on a stat that is way too far removed from the convo.

Just my two cents, you can take it as you want.

Whenever I see that poster i just have to keep moving down the page, I can't even keep up with half of that ramble.
 
737tanker
Posts: 349
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Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:35 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
737tanker wrote:
Additionally I remember Herb Kelleher telling my upgrade class in January 2000 that one of the biggest mistakes that he made at Southwest was pulling out of ANC.

Ummm...WN never served ANC...
But if you're talking about Morris Air...

Yes I know that WN never served ANC and Morris did. However Herb was the one who made the decision not to keep ANC as a WN city after the Morris merger and that was the mistake he was talking about.
 
uconn99
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:52 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:54 pm

southwest1675 wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
jplatts wrote:

There are only 6 airports served by WN that currently do not have nonstop service out of BNA on WN and that have nonstop service out of BNA on an airline other than WN, and these destinations are ATL, CVG, EWR, SFO, SLC, and IAD. However, WN does already serve NYC nonstop from BNA through LGA, the San Francisco Bay area nonstop from BNA through OAK, and Washington, DC nonstop through DCA and BWI. The only remaining markets that WN does not serve nonstop from BNA that have nonstop service out of BNA on other airlines are ATL, CVG, and SLC, but all 3 of these destinations are DL hubs (and were DL hubs prior to the DL-NW merger) and DL serves all 3 of these destinations nonstop from BNA.

BNA is one of the few markets where WN has over 50% market share, and WN also has significantly greater market share at BNA than DL does.

Will WN ever add nonstop service from BNA to ATL, CVG, and SLC?


They dropped EWR, a little surprising to me. LGA must be a much better fit. I can't see them adding to any of the Delta hubs you list. They can overfly ATL to most of the Florida destinations. Not sure what the PDEW is to the other two, but they probably don't have much local traffic. ONT, SJC, PDX would work I think, if AS doesn't get PDX first. Eastbound, maybe return to PVD or BDL. The Nashville boom might throw some pax that direction.


Supposedly the numbers between BDL and BNA are pretty good.


I would say WN would add a flight between BDL and BNA before the rumored DL flight since BNA is a large focus city and previously flew BNA-BDL 2x daily in the past.
 
YRflier
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:24 am

jplatts wrote:
Why does WN serve AMA, LBB, and MAF nonstop from LAS but not CRP or HRL nonstop from LAS? CRP and HRL are both in bigger metropolitan areas than AMA, LBB, and MAF are in, and in addition to that, the population of the Texas portion of the Rio Grande Valley, including the McAllen, Harlingen, and Brownsville metropolitan areas, is over 1.2 million people. CRP and HRL are also the only WN destinations in the U.S. west of the Mississippi that WN doesn't serve nonstop from LAS.


I think the main reason is because Brownsville, Harlingen, and McAllen each have a commercial airport which in essence divides the area into three smaller markets. The locals do travel to markets other than Texas and in considerable numbers according to DOT consumer airfare city pair market data.
 
jb1087xna
Posts: 358
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:11 am

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:38 am

LovePrunesAnet wrote:
i never mentioned Southwest serving Little Rock to sweep it into any bucket. First time it was even brought up was from you. LIT has the advantage of being the state capital as well.


You're right, the first time LIT was brought up was by me.... after your post that started with "rah rah Arkansas" without a mention of WN serving LIT, which again as you point out, is the capital of Arkansas.

WaywardMemphian wrote:
We were having a discussion somewhere else about how the massive influx of Texas kids to the University of Arkansas was jacking up the traffic counts on I-49 from I-40 to Fayetteville. Those kids are flush with plenty of Mom and Dad's money and why Arkansas should get Ft. Smith to Texarkana done with tolls. Arkansas admitted a record number of in state students last year and they were still outnumbered by incoming freshmen from Texas. Anyhow, it lead to where folks were moving in from and it produced this:

26.9% - rural, nonmetro areas in the US (admittedly not very helpful, but I would imagine the primary state here is Arkansas)
7%- Little Rock metro
7%- Asia
4.8%- DFW
4.4%- Fort Smith metro
3%- Tulsa
2.3%- Central America
2.14%- Kansas City
2.13%- Joplin
2%- Los Angeles

The Asian number stood out. Anyway, the point is that NWA is now becoming more than Walmart. The Hospitals are growing, new ones planned like Arkansas Childrens. All kind of things outside of Walmart are growing and flourishing. Walmart just cut 500 jobs in what has become an annual thing, the reaction was, Meh. WalMart is also about to drop billions for a whole new HQ campus that's expected to bring some stuff based elsewhere to NWA. Outsider's really must seperately NWA from what they 'think' Arkansas is.

So, yeah, I think that NWA will be as large as Little Rock and Tulsa and can no longer be considered as a nice little bonus for Tulsa but a market where a lack of a presence is bad business.


XNA is my home airport and I'm a fan of all numbers that indicate more passengers/flights. I just can't imagine the current dynamic and passenger count with WN...it would definitely cause either a massive upheaval of other legacy traffic (potentially resulting in a lot of reductions or them bleeding cash otherwise), or WN would fall flat. That is unless WN caused a much larger increase of YOY traffic than what XNA saw in 2017.
| A319/20/21/33 | B717,722,733/5/7/8/9,744,752,762/3 | CR1/2/7/9 | D95 | E145/75 | M82/8/90 |
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:10 am

jplatts wrote:
PHL already does have nonstop service from MCI on AA and F9, but WN could possibly serve PHL nonstop from MCI since WN still has gates that are not fully utilized at PHL, since WN has more than enough room to further expand at PHL, since PHL is one of the top destinations actually traveled to from MCI that WN does not currently serve nonstop from MCI, since WN serves other major East Coast destinations nonstop from MCI (including ATL, BWI, BOS, FLL, LGA, MCO, TPA, and DCA), and since there are travelers in the Kansas City area who prefer to fly on WN over AA or F9.


It was noted elsewhere (I believe the PIT Discussion Thread) what WN had big plans for PHL, but after the merger with FL, combined with AA's fortress hub status at PHL, they essentially gave up on PHL to focus on expanding at BWI post-merger. That's why I'm a little skeptical that WN would add MCI-PHL. Being a little biased towards my hometown, though, I wouldn't mind an MCI-PIT schedule in the short- or long-term...
2018: BWI, PIT, MDW, MCI, STL, DAL
 
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FA9295
Posts: 915
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:55 am

SeaDoo wrote:
I'm waiting to see what they do with the five flights from Everett. I am also curious how the Hawaii expansion goes. Somewhat interesting to me that they haven't tried Anchorage.


I think WN could use PDX as a gateway to ANC at some point. (I say PDX because SEA-ANC is packed tight already)...
Last edited by FA9295 on Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Next flights:
PDX-LAX-MIA (American)
MCO-DFW-PDX (American)

PDX-MSP-PDX (Delta)
 
jplatts
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:03 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
PHL already does have nonstop service from MCI on AA and F9, but WN could possibly serve PHL nonstop from MCI since WN still has gates that are not fully utilized at PHL, since WN has more than enough room to further expand at PHL, since PHL is one of the top destinations actually traveled to from MCI that WN does not currently serve nonstop from MCI, since WN serves other major East Coast destinations nonstop from MCI (including ATL, BWI, BOS, FLL, LGA, MCO, TPA, and DCA), and since there are travelers in the Kansas City area who prefer to fly on WN over AA or F9.


It was noted elsewhere (I believe the PIT Discussion Thread) what WN had big plans for PHL, but after the merger with FL, combined with AA's fortress hub status at PHL, they essentially gave up on PHL to focus on expanding at BWI post-merger. That's why I'm a little skeptical that WN would add MCI-PHL. Being a little biased towards my hometown, though, I wouldn't mind an MCI-PIT schedule in the short- or long-term...


WN could bring back HOU-PHL nonstop service since PHL is one of the top destinations actually traveled to from HOU that is no longer served nonstop from HOU on WN, since there is demand for HOU-PHL flights on WN, even with AA, UA, and F9 all serving PHL nonstop from IAH, since WN now has nonstop international flights to Mexico, Belize, and Costa Rica out of HOU, and since WN has been gradually expanding its domestic operation at HOU.

WN has recently been expanding at OAK, SAN, SFO, and SJC in order to better compete against AS in California, and WN is going to be starting OAK-IND, OAK-MSP, OAK-MCO, and SFO-AUS nonstop service later this year in order to better compete against AS in California. While WN had previously served LAX and OAK nonstop from PHL, WN could bring back PHL-LAX and PHL-OAK nonstop service and add PHL-SAN nonstop service in order to better compete against AS in California.

MCI is the largest WN station between the West Coast and the East Coast that has never had nonstop service to PHL on WN, and WN also has over 50% market share at MCI. There are many customers who are loyal to WN in the Kansas City market and who prefer to fly on WN out of MCI, and in addition, WN already does have nonstop service to other East Coast destinations from MCI, including BOS, LGA, BWI, DCA, ATL, MCO, TPA, RSW, and FLL.

In addition to MCI, WN could also add possibly nonstop service from PHL to IND and MKE in the Midwest. The lack of PHL-MKE nonstop service on WN is a bigger hole than the lack of PHL-MCI or PHL-IND nonstop service are since MKE is too close to MDW for WN to serve MDW nonstop from MKE, since BWI is too close to PHL for WN to serve BWI nonstop from PHL, since STL, BNA, and ATL are all too far south for connections to PHL from MKE, since WN is the dominant carrier in the MKE market, since there are many travelers who are loyal to WN in the MKE market, and since WN serves other East Coast destinations nonstop from MKE.

There was an article in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (found at http://www.post-gazette.com/business/development/2015/05/01/After-10-years-in-Pittsburgh-Southwest-Airlines-considers-an-expanded-role-here/stories/201505010162) that mentioned that WN had considered bringing back PHL-PIT nonstop service, but bringing back PHL-PIT nonstop service is not a high priority for WN.

WN has been recently expanding at both AUS and SAT, and WN used to serve AUS and SAT nonstop from PHL prior to WN cutting service at PHL 9 years ago. WN could possibly bring back AUS-PHL and SAT-PHL nonstop service if the demand is there since AUS and SAT are located in Southwest's home state of Texas and since there is no legacy carrier hub at AUS or SAT.

I do not expect WN to bring back nonstop service from PHL to any of its New England destinations, and I do not expect WN to be as big at PHL as it was 9 years ago when it had 70 daily departures out of PHL. However, WN does have opportunities to add nonstop service to PHL from destinations that do not currently have nonstop service to PHL on WN.
 
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FlyingJhawk
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:26 am

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:17 pm

Southwest operates out of Wichita is about a 2.5 to 3 hour drive from KC and about the same to OKC. XNA is a longer drive than that . . . perhaps close to 4 hours to KCI depending on the time of day. The drive from NWA to Tulsa is about the same from as KC to Wichita. I could see an XNA/LAS flight working and perhaps a XNA/MCO. Granted that's only two city pairs but I don't think SWA servicing XNA is that big of a leap. Add in that the population growth in NWA is off the charts and it's probably a matter of when not if.
 
red66mustang
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:49 am

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:39 pm

FA9295 wrote:
SeaDoo wrote:
I'm waiting to see what they do with the five flights from Everett. I am also curious how the Hawaii expansion goes. Somewhat interesting to me that they haven't tried Anchorage.


I think WN could use PDX as a gateway to ANC at some point. (I say PDX because SEA-ANC is packed tight already)...


ANCPDX may already be too crowded with AS serving it year round and B6 serving it seasonally. DL, B6, and AS served it the summer of 2016 and it was a blood bath, I often found walk up fares as low as $90 that summer
 
Chugach
Posts: 1102
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:18 am

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:52 pm

FA9295 wrote:
SeaDoo wrote:
I'm waiting to see what they do with the five flights from Everett. I am also curious how the Hawaii expansion goes. Somewhat interesting to me that they haven't tried Anchorage.


I think WN could use PDX as a gateway to ANC at some point. (I say PDX because SEA-ANC is packed tight already)...


SEA-ANC also has a ton of O&D on both ends; Seattle is far and away the top market from Anchorage, and Anchorage is, I believe, a top 5 market from Seattle (if it’s not too 5 then it’s top 10). If B6 can fill up a flight with barely any feed then WN would be fine.

If WN started PDX-ANC, I wouldn’t be surprised if B6 dropped the route. PDX-ANC is a good market but it’s not big enough for three carriers.

Personally, if WN ever goes to ANC I’d put money on it being some combination of OAK/DEN/SEA-ANC service. They’re all solid O&D markets for Anchorage and competition is somewhat limited on Bay Area-ANC and DEN-ANC.
 
User avatar
FA9295
Posts: 915
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:55 pm

Chugach wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
SeaDoo wrote:
I'm waiting to see what they do with the five flights from Everett. I am also curious how the Hawaii expansion goes. Somewhat interesting to me that they haven't tried Anchorage.


I think WN could use PDX as a gateway to ANC at some point. (I say PDX because SEA-ANC is packed tight already)...


SEA-ANC also has a ton of O&D on both ends; Seattle is far and away the top market from Anchorage, and Anchorage is, I believe, a top 5 market from Seattle (if it’s not too 5 then it’s top 10). If B6 can fill up a flight with barely any feed then WN would be fine.

If WN started PDX-ANC, I wouldn’t be surprised if B6 dropped the route. PDX-ANC is a good market but it’s not big enough for three carriers.

Personally, if WN ever goes to ANC I’d put money on it being some combination of OAK/DEN/SEA-ANC service. They’re all solid O&D markets for Anchorage and competition is somewhat limited on Bay Area-ANC and DEN-ANC.

The O&D market for PDX-ANC is just fine. I don't think B6 will suffer if WN were to add this route...
Next flights:
PDX-LAX-MIA (American)
MCO-DFW-PDX (American)

PDX-MSP-PDX (Delta)
 
ibthebigd
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:12 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:05 pm

What domestic airport will Southwest serve next FAT, XNA, OR ANC?
 
Jshank83
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:45 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
What domestic airport will Southwest serve next FAT, XNA, OR ANC?


I can't see them starting XNA. I don't think they can get the passengers they would need to get to fill their planes
 
flyfresno
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:09 am

ibthebigd wrote:
What domestic airport will Southwest serve next FAT, XNA, OR ANC?


While ANC would surely be a good bet seasonally (summer), I'm not sure if SWA wants to serve it only part of the year (or reduce to only 1 or 2 flights per day in the winter). XNA is interesting...SWA might "develop" the market and get people to drive in who otherwise wouldn't. FAT seems like the surest bet, but I'm also a bit biased...
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:38 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines Network Thread 2018

Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:49 am

FA9295 wrote:
Chugach wrote:
FA9295 wrote:

I think WN could use PDX as a gateway to ANC at some point. (I say PDX because SEA-ANC is packed tight already)...


SEA-ANC also has a ton of O&D on both ends; Seattle is far and away the top market from Anchorage, and Anchorage is, I believe, a top 5 market from Seattle (if it’s not too 5 then it’s top 10). If B6 can fill up a flight with barely any feed then WN would be fine.

If WN started PDX-ANC, I wouldn’t be surprised if B6 dropped the route. PDX-ANC is a good market but it’s not big enough for three carriers.

Personally, if WN ever goes to ANC I’d put money on it being some combination of OAK/DEN/SEA-ANC service. They’re all solid O&D markets for Anchorage and competition is somewhat limited on Bay Area-ANC and DEN-ANC.

The O&D market for PDX-ANC is just fine. I don't think B6 will suffer if WN were to add this route...


There's not unlimited demand between PDX and ANC. Of course B6 would suffer with another entrant on the route. Fortunately for them, if WN is going to start ANC it's going to be from somewhere where they have more feed and less competition (OAK, SMF, SJC, SAN, LAS, DEN, etc)
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