Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
enilria wrote:When did they say CVG would be a connect point?
It's the same network strategy as NK where FLL is now DEN.
Midwestindy wrote:enilria wrote:When did they say CVG would be a connect point?
It's the same network strategy as NK where FLL is now DEN.
http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... art_c.html
CLE, CVG, AUS, and MCO were listed, don't expect a lot of connecting passengers though...
jbpdx wrote:Connections on Frontier from Portland through Denver are a joke, e.g. PDX-BNA: 23 hours with an 18-hour layover in DEN. PDX-CVG: 24.5 hours. PDX-MSY: 21 hours. PDX-RSW: 15 hours. PDX-MCI: 20.5 hours. Why bother loading these connections?
cvgComair wrote:Just for an example, here are some of the connecting itineraries offered by F9 through CVG (this is not complete):
MSP-CVG-RDU/TPA/PHL/LGA/LAS/ATL
RSW-CVG-MSP/PHL/LAS
LAX-CVG-ATL
RDU-CVG-MSP/ATL/LAS
TPA-CVG-ATL
SAT-CVG-LAS/ATL
PHL-CVG-LAX/SAT/DEN/SAN/PHX/AUS/TPA/MIA/JAX
LGA-CVG-JAX/TPA/RSW/AUS/SAT
ATL-CVG-LAX/SAN/SJC/AUS/SAT
AUS-CVG-LGA/ATL/LAS
MIA-CVG-DEN/PHL/AUS
SJC-CVG-ATL
JAX-CVG-LAS
DEN-CVG-SAT/RDU/TPA/MSP/PHL
PHX-CVG-LGA/MSP/PHL/ATL
LAS-CVG-MCO
SAN-CVG-PHL/ATL
DFW-CVG-PHL/ATL/MSP
I believe CVG will be #4 (behind DEN, MCO, LAS) in F9's system by scheduled seats once all the new routes are added in. Given the central geography and amount of connections available (which has to be #2 behind DEN at this point) I don't think it is unrealistic to envision CVG as F9's eastern DEN.
Midwestindy wrote:cvgComair wrote:Just for an example, here are some of the connecting itineraries offered by F9 through CVG (this is not complete):
MSP-CVG-RDU/TPA/PHL/LGA/LAS/ATL
RSW-CVG-MSP/PHL/LAS
LAX-CVG-ATL
RDU-CVG-MSP/ATL/LAS
TPA-CVG-ATL
SAT-CVG-LAS/ATL
PHL-CVG-LAX/SAT/DEN/SAN/PHX/AUS/TPA/MIA/JAX
LGA-CVG-JAX/TPA/RSW/AUS/SAT
ATL-CVG-LAX/SAN/SJC/AUS/SAT
AUS-CVG-LGA/ATL/LAS
MIA-CVG-DEN/PHL/AUS
SJC-CVG-ATL
JAX-CVG-LAS
DEN-CVG-SAT/RDU/TPA/MSP/PHL
PHX-CVG-LGA/MSP/PHL/ATL
LAS-CVG-MCO
SAN-CVG-PHL/ATL
DFW-CVG-PHL/ATL/MSP
I believe CVG will be #4 (behind DEN, MCO, LAS) in F9's system by scheduled seats once all the new routes are added in. Given the central geography and amount of connections available (which has to be #2 behind DEN at this point) I don't think it is unrealistic to envision CVG as F9's eastern DEN.
That is the premise of F9s schedule though it, they "bank" their flights out of almost every station, they are already doing that now at CVG. I'm sure you can find similar itineraries if you look throughly ORD, PHL, ATL, e.t.c. Even if you look at IND, which only has at most 3 flights a day they are timed for connections. For example the inbound flight is DEN and the outbound is RSW or the inbound flight is LAS and the outbound is MCO, e.t.c, e.t.c.
cvgComair wrote:jbpdx wrote:Connections on Frontier from Portland through Denver are a joke, e.g. PDX-BNA: 23 hours with an 18-hour layover in DEN. PDX-CVG: 24.5 hours. PDX-MSY: 21 hours. PDX-RSW: 15 hours. PDX-MCI: 20.5 hours. Why bother loading these connections?
They seem to be offering a lot of overnight/red-eye connections through DEN, which makes those long layovers. Though it depends on the day of the week, for instance, here is a 1.5 hour connection in DEN for PDX-CVG: https://www.google.com/flights/#search; ... ;a=F9;eo=e. My guess is some people are willing to fly them if the price is low enough.
It seems they have capped connections at 7 hours at CVG, most are around 1 to 3 hours, with a couple long 4-7 hour connections thrown in there.
jtwall wrote:At smaller stations though I'd venture to say that's just the nature of a ULCC...with the turnarounds so fast (often 30-40 minutes from what I've seen at CVG) the outbound flight for the inbound flight can be a "banked connection". Now that CVG is a larger station though, it would be interesting to see if they really actually try to time their schedule so some of the inbound flights arrive at similar times to create a semi-banked schedule for multiple connections. I wonder if that's what cvgComair is claiming what the CVG F9 schedule will look like. Although, what is F9's peak daily departures from CVG? I'd imagine it's hard to have a few banks with 3-5 planes arriving at similar times in the day if we don't exceed 15-20 or so daily flights.
Midwestindy wrote:jtwall wrote:At smaller stations though I'd venture to say that's just the nature of a ULCC...with the turnarounds so fast (often 30-40 minutes from what I've seen at CVG) the outbound flight for the inbound flight can be a "banked connection". Now that CVG is a larger station though, it would be interesting to see if they really actually try to time their schedule so some of the inbound flights arrive at similar times to create a semi-banked schedule for multiple connections. I wonder if that's what cvgComair is claiming what the CVG F9 schedule will look like. Although, what is F9's peak daily departures from CVG? I'd imagine it's hard to have a few banks with 3-5 planes arriving at similar times in the day if we don't exceed 15-20 or so daily flights.
Here is a link for April 10th, 12 departures, according to this they sometimes have 2 planes arriving at similar times. For April 11th, there are 13 departures, but there is only one "bank" with three flights departing in around an hour.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Midwestindy wrote:That is the premise of F9s schedule though it, they "bank" their flights out of almost every station, they are already doing that now at CVG. I'm sure you can find similar itineraries if you look throughly ORD, PHL, ATL, e.t.c. Even if you look at IND, which only has at most 3 flights a day they are timed for connections. For example the inbound flight is DEN and the outbound is RSW or the inbound flight is LAS and the outbound is MCO, e.t.c, e.t.c.
jtwall wrote:Seems like CVG has a long way to go then until any even remotely significant connecting hub is built up...even though CVG may be #4 in F9's network, it's a very, very long way from being the "eastern DEN".
AirportRival wrote:I'm not going to debate the schedule set-up that Frontier has planned for CVG. I know that the Frontier operation here will be significantly different than it was last summer and I know that comparing the Frontier schedule in IND to the schedule in CVG is apples to oranges. To have a better understanding of the F9 schedule for CVG starting in April I built this spreadsheet a while back https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing. This spreadsheet also shows what the Frontier schedule looked like exactly one year prior. No offense to Midwestindy's spreadsheet but this one is easier to read.
AirportRival wrote:I'm not going to debate the schedule set-up that Frontier has planned for CVG. I know that the Frontier operation here will be significantly different than it was last summer and I know that comparing the Frontier schedule in IND to the schedule in CVG is apples to oranges. To have a better understanding of the F9 schedule for CVG starting in April I built this spreadsheet a while back
cvgComair wrote:46... not 64, 64 is the number of 1 and 2 stop itineraries through CVGCVG: 64
Midwestindy wrote:My point wasn't to compare IND's schedule to CVG's, it was to show that connections are made across the F9 system
bridge29 wrote:With Frontier's dartboard strategy, I really don't understand why they haven't re-entered MDT.
bridge29 wrote:With Frontier's dartboard strategy, I really don't understand why they haven't re-entered MDT.
Midwestindy wrote:Looks like the MIA expansion isn't going well....
cvgComair wrote:Midwestindy wrote:Looks like the MIA expansion isn't going well....
LF's from Oct were really poor across the board (DEN/LAS being the exceptions):
DEN-MIA: 93%
LAS-MIA: 86%
TTN-MIA: 75%
CVG-MIA: 74%
PHL-MIA: 73%
ORD-MIA: 71%
PVD-MIA: 65%
DTW-MIA: 55%
CLE-MIA: 55%
ISP-MIA: 47%
MKE-MIA: 46%
Buffalomatt1027 wrote:Buffalo to Florida (Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Ft. Myers) all seem to be going well ..... They will be starting seasonal flights to Denver soon.
Pretty cool to see NEOs and A321s at BNIA!
Midwestindy wrote:MKE/PVD/TTN-MIA aren't showing up past the first week in April even though they were supposed to be year-round, ISP-MIA is showing n/s flights but they aren't available for booking
mariner wrote:Midwestindy wrote:MKE/PVD/TTN-MIA aren't showing up past the first week in April even though they were supposed to be year-round, ISP-MIA is showing n/s flights but they aren't available for booking
PVD was announced as seasonal:
http://www.pvdairport.com/corporate/new ... providence
"MIAMI (MIA) – PROVIDENCE (PVD)
F9 988 Depart MIA: 9:45 a.m. Arrive PVD: 12:57 p.m.
F9 989 Depart PVD: 1:45 p.m. Arrive MIA: 5:09 p.m.
Frequency: Daily
Aircraft: Airbus A320
Service Start: Oct. 5
Seasonal"
And I've always assumed TTN-MIA will be seasonal; - whatever Wiki says - because otherwise the airport would be a clusterf*ck when they add the summer routes. I don't think anyone knew what was going to happen at ISP.
LGA-MIA is seasonal because of the LGA slot which is used for DEN-LGA in summer.
mariner
Midwestindy wrote:I know you are a F9 fan, but I think you are avoiding the crux of what is happening here....
cvgComair wrote:Midwestindy wrote:Looks like the MIA expansion isn't going well....
LF's from Oct were really poor across the board (DEN/LAS being the exceptions):
DEN-MIA: 93%
LAS-MIA: 86%
TTN-MIA: 75%
CVG-MIA: 74%
PHL-MIA: 73%
ORD-MIA: 71%
PVD-MIA: 65%
DTW-MIA: 55%
CLE-MIA: 55%
ISP-MIA: 47%
MKE-MIA: 46%
cvgComair wrote:Midwestindy wrote:Looks like the MIA expansion isn't going well....
LF's from Oct were really poor across the board
PVD757 wrote:For PVD at least, MIA was a new seasonal route on a new airline starting in an off peak month. If it stays at 65% in winter months, then I’d be worried.
SumChristianus wrote:The hurricanes pulled inbound (to FL) October numbers down. Outbound was probably higher, right?
mariner wrote:Midwestindy wrote:I know you are a F9 fan, but I think you are avoiding the crux of what is happening here....
What's being "a fan" got to do with pointing that several routes to MIA are seasonal?
So - what is the crux of what is happening here?
mariner
cvgComair wrote:I think the gist is that most of these MIA routes will not be back next year. Low season or not, history shows that F9 cuts routes that are not preforming well, regardless of "other" factors... Many of the new routes will eventually be cut, it is just the F9 way .
Hopefully they refocus on providing solid connecting opportunities for 2019, they already have the hub in DEN, plus emerging operations in CVG/LAS/MCO/ORD/PHL which pretty much over the entire US. It would be nice to see them have a strong base of operations to supplement their dart board strategy. A balance between the two is key, especially with the huge upcoming fleet growth.
Midwestindy wrote:I think you know what I mean when I say you are a F9 "fan"
Midwestindy wrote:Either way TTN/ISP/MKE-MIA have all seen service trimmed, so there isn't really a way for you to spin that in Frontiers favor. And, the "crux "of what is happening is that MIA service (at least for the time being) has not been successful, or else they wouldn't be decreasing service on several routes.
Midwestindy wrote:The jury is still out on ISP, but ISP-MSY already being cut is not a good sign
Midwestindy wrote:I think some interesting markets to watch for F9 will be TUL, SAN, ISP, MIA, MSY, PVD, COS, SJC and SFO, and SAT considering they are trying some "riskier" flights from those airports. F9 will be in good shape if they do well in those airports.
mariner wrote:Midwestindy wrote:Either way TTN/ISP/MKE-MIA have all seen service trimmed, so there isn't really a way for you to spin that in Frontiers favor. And, the "crux "of what is happening is that MIA service (at least for the time being) has not been successful, or else they wouldn't be decreasing service on several routes.
If MIA is doing so poorly, why did they bring LAS back?
mariner wrote:Midwestindy wrote:I think some interesting markets to watch for F9 will be TUL, SAN, ISP, MIA, MSY, PVD, COS, SJC and SFO, and SAT considering they are trying some "riskier" flights from those airports. F9 will be in good shape if they do well in those airports.
You put MIA on your list of interesting places to watch but you've also said MIA is doing poorly so I'm confused. But then I'm just a "fan."
mariner
Midwestindy wrote:MIA-LAS was added in August, before any of the aforementioned routes had even started and before anyone knew how successful their expansion would be in MIA, so it doesn't fit into this equation
Midwestindy wrote:I included MIA, because there is a chance some of the routes have improved since Oct/Nov/Dec
PVD757 wrote:If ISP, PVD, and TTN all lost MSY, why is the jury still out on those 3 stations and not MSY being the common denominator? Didn’t G4 just trim a few MSY markets in the last OAG thread too?
mariner wrote:Midwestindy wrote:MIA-LAS was added in August, before any of the aforementioned routes had even started and before anyone knew how successful their expansion would be in MIA, so it doesn't fit into this equation
The big expansion (in;lcuing MIA) was announced in July and MIA-LAS came back in August. They had been flying to MIA for some and had flown MIA-LAS before so they knew what the market could do.
And while Frontier may know how the new routes at MIA are doing, all "we" know is one month, one introductory, out-of-season month.
mariner wrote:PVD757 wrote:If ISP, PVD, and TTN all lost MSY, why is the jury still out on those 3 stations and not MSY being the common denominator? Didn’t G4 just trim a few MSY markets in the last OAG thread too?
One of the more sensible questions on the thread.
mariner
Midwestindy wrote:You lost me there, MIA-LAS was announced in May not July
Midwestindy wrote:ISP and PVD are brand new markets for F9 started last year, MSY has been around for a while... btw when did F9 run TTN-MSY?
Midwestindy wrote:mariner wrote:PVD757 wrote:If ISP, PVD, and TTN all lost MSY, why is the jury still out on those 3 stations and not MSY being the common denominator? Didn’t G4 just trim a few MSY markets in the last OAG thread too?
One of the more sensible questions on the thread.
mariner
ISP and PVD are brand new markets for F9 started last year, MSY has been around for a while... btw when did F9 run TTN-MSY?