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RL757PVD wrote:6am is not nearly as bad as 9pm departure on a Saturday
mariner wrote:RL757PVD wrote:6am is not nearly as bad as 9pm departure on a Saturday
Did I say that it was???
But if comes to that, 9pm isn't as bad as some of the departures from SJU, which have caused some derision here but which don't seem to be affecting the loads.
mariner
RL757PVD wrote:[I wasn’t quoting you, I was making a general point
RL757PVD wrote:F9 seems to be setting a lot of these less than daily markets up for failure by prioritizing utilization over revenue potential.
wnflyguy wrote:Would the new ULCC Frontier model work at LGB?
SumChristianus wrote:
Ohh wait:https://news.flyfrontier.com/frontier-adds-two-new-cities-and-announces-six-routes---fares-as-low-as-49/
RDU-DTW, RDU-MSP, and AUS-SLC.....as well
mariner wrote:phluser wrote:I mentioned awhile ago that the ISP-DTW schedule was crappy. 6am departure out of ISP. Arrival back to ISP is close to midnight (5/6 - 5/10 as an example). 6am might work for MCO and if it's a secondary frequency, but a 3x weekly DTW - I doubted it. It figures that F9 is calling it a low demand problem rather than poor execution.
Curious then that Frontier flies TTN to and from DTW with such "terrible timings" - LOL - and has done, on and off, for several years. Oh, well.
mariner
phluser wrote:That said, TTN-DTW seems marginal at best and likely isn't a big money-maker currently. Friday 5/4 fare on TTN-DTW is offered at $29 Discount Den, $39 standard fare. DTW-TTN is same price on Friday and Saturday, and arrival back is close to midnight.
rph99 wrote:MCO, JAX, TPA, RSW, PBI, MIA. This airport is nothing more than an alternative to EWR.Morristown is so interesting.
I want to speculate this.
What routes would we see and could they get their 321s in there with the short runway? 5998ft?
MAH4546 wrote:Heard MIA-ISP will be back in November.
mariner wrote:phluser wrote:That said, TTN-DTW seems marginal at best and likely isn't a big money-maker currently. Friday 5/4 fare on TTN-DTW is offered at $29 Discount Den, $39 standard fare. DTW-TTN is same price on Friday and Saturday, and arrival back is close to midnight.
Whether it's a big money maker or not, it's still there - after five years.
Frontier's pricing seems to defeat those who are used to legacy fares and cannot change their thinking.
mariner
ScrantonUSC wrote:Does anyone have an educated guess at what Frontier wants to do at RDU? Are they expecting to use RDU for connections?
From RDU: Austin, Denver, Las Vegas, Orlando
Seasonal from RDU: Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Harrisburg, Detroit, Houston–Intercontinental, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New Orleans, Portland (ME), Providence, San Antonio, San Juan, Syracuse, Trenton
mariner wrote:phluser wrote:That said, TTN-DTW seems marginal at best and likely isn't a big money-maker currently. Friday 5/4 fare on TTN-DTW is offered at $29 Discount Den, $39 standard fare. DTW-TTN is same price on Friday and Saturday, and arrival back is close to midnight.
Whether it's a big money maker or not, it's still there - after five years.
Frontier's pricing seems to defeat those who are used to legacy fares and cannot change their thinking.
mariner
phluser wrote:If the pricing is so low for many flights just days ahead, it's often been the case, the route gets cut as it didn't perform to expectations. Yes, TTN-DTW has been there for five years, but it's seasonal, and run at different times each year. It's also 4x weekly while ISP is less. Thanks for building the straw man and switch the conversation to TTN, which is a proven station for F9, while ISP is a new and different station.
mariner wrote:phluser wrote:If the pricing is so low for many flights just days ahead, it's often been the case, the route gets cut as it didn't perform to expectations. Yes, TTN-DTW has been there for five years, but it's seasonal, and run at different times each year. It's also 4x weekly while ISP is less. Thanks for building the straw man and switch the conversation to TTN, which is a proven station for F9, while ISP is a new and different station.
And if ISP-DTW were to continue through a second season. times nay be different again, so I don't understand this. You make it sound like ISP is doing Frontier a favour by having them there, whereas if the airport cannot handle Frontier's scheduling, Frontier shouldn't be at the airport.
Most airlines have done this - they have avoided ISP. Frontier has given it a go and has found some routes that work. But not all of them will.
mariner
Midwestindy wrote:Frontier has put in a good effort in trying to expand ISP, but so far it has been pretty unsuccessful, DTW, MSP, MIA, MSY, and RSW cut or suspended within 6 months
mariner wrote:Midwestindy wrote:Frontier has put in a good effort in trying to expand ISP, but so far it has been pretty unsuccessful, DTW, MSP, MIA, MSY, and RSW cut or suspended within 6 months
And just this very week we get news that ISP-RSW is coming back for the winter season and probably ISP-MIA as well.
mariner
Midwestindy wrote:The fact that RSW and MIA (along with the others I mentioned) were suspended in the first place so quickly isn't a good sign
mariner wrote:Midwestindy wrote:Frontier has put in a good effort in trying to expand ISP, but so far it has been pretty unsuccessful, DTW, MSP, MIA, MSY, and RSW cut or suspended within 6 months
And just this very week we get news that ISP-RSW is coming back for the winter season and probably ISP-MIA as well. But what matters, surely, is not what has been cancelled but what is flying.
mariner
WNflyer1523 wrote:While nothing too significant, they're also increasing ISP-MYR frequency from 3x a week to 4x
ryanrap1 wrote:Does anyone know when the schedule will be extended through end of December?
RDUDDJI wrote:ScrantonUSC wrote:Does anyone have an educated guess at what Frontier wants to do at RDU? Are they expecting to use RDU for connections?
From RDU: Austin, Denver, Las Vegas, Orlando
Seasonal from RDU: Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Harrisburg, Detroit, Houston–Intercontinental, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New Orleans, Portland (ME), Providence, San Antonio, San Juan, Syracuse, Trenton
I don’t believe their frequencies allow for connections. Many of those flights only operate 2-3days a week. At this point I wonder if F9 even has a business plan or if they’re just throwing darts at a map... I can’t imagine something like RDU-SYR 2x weekly being worth it... No offense to RDU or SYR.
I recall pre-9/11 when I worked for JI, I always thought JI-F9 would be a good merger. Merging West and East and kind of having a “national” regional airline. Ah dreams(delusions) of a 20something ramper.
717atOGG wrote:Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.
On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.
F9LASDEN wrote:717atOGG wrote:Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.
On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.
Of the 85 routes announced last July, 12 have been cut: CLT-ISP, MCO-CUN, ORD-ONT, CVG-SEA, DTW-ISP, MIA-ISP (although it’s rumored that this route is coming back next winter), ISP-MSP, ISP-MSY, OKC-SAN, BNA-TPA, MSY-PVD, and SAN-TUL. I believe a few of these routes were cut before they even began (CLT-ISP and ORD-ONT are two I know for sure, and I believe that CVG-SEA suffered the same fate). DEN, the station that had the most routes announced last July, has managed to retain all 21 of the routes they announced from there last July (up to this point), though, as you mention, some of them have been running for a very short time (DEN-JAC just launched 4 days ago, in fact). I believe that having 73 (possibly 74) of those routes still running almost a year after that announcement is pretty good, especially given F9’s track record of quickly entering and exiting markets.
Balloonchaser wrote:F9LASDEN wrote:717atOGG wrote:Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.
On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.
Of the 85 routes announced last July, 12 have been cut: CLT-ISP, MCO-CUN, ORD-ONT, CVG-SEA, DTW-ISP, MIA-ISP (although it’s rumored that this route is coming back next winter), ISP-MSP, ISP-MSY, OKC-SAN, BNA-TPA, MSY-PVD, and SAN-TUL. I believe a few of these routes were cut before they even began (CLT-ISP and ORD-ONT are two I know for sure, and I believe that CVG-SEA suffered the same fate). DEN, the station that had the most routes announced last July, has managed to retain all 21 of the routes they announced from there last July (up to this point), though, as you mention, some of them have been running for a very short time (DEN-JAC just launched 4 days ago, in fact). I believe that having 73 (possibly 74) of those routes still running almost a year after that announcement is pretty good, especially given F9’s track record of quickly entering and exiting markets.
It’s actually rumored that all of Frontiers routes from Islip (ISP) will come back at some point this year or next year for a seasonal schedule.
ISP-CLT - Winter Seasonal
ISP-DTW - F9 Stated that if loads ended up being high at the end of the quarter, then they may bring it back next year
ISP-MIA - Fall/Winter Seasonal
ISP-MSP - F9 Stated that if loads ended up being high at the end of the quarter, then they may bring it back next year
ISP-MSY - Spring/Summer Seasonal
F9LASDEN wrote:717atOGG wrote:Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.
On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.
Of the 85 routes announced last July, 12 have been cut: CLT-ISP, MCO-CUN, ORD-ONT, CVG-SEA, DTW-ISP, MIA-ISP (although it’s rumored that this route is coming back next winter), ISP-MSP, ISP-MSY, OKC-SAN, BNA-TPA, MSY-PVD, and SAN-TUL. I believe a few of these routes were cut before they even began (CLT-ISP and ORD-ONT are two I know for sure, and I believe that CVG-SEA suffered the same fate). DEN, the station that had the most routes announced last July, has managed to retain all 21 of the routes they announced from there last July (up to this point), though, as you mention, some of them have been running for a very short time (DEN-JAC just launched 4 days ago, in fact). I believe that having 73 (possibly 74) of those routes still running almost a year after that announcement is pretty good, especially given F9’s track record of quickly entering and exiting markets.
msycajun wrote:I don't have insider info, but this number seems way off to me. I picked TPA to check because they announced a ton of routes at that time. Of the 10 routes they announced, I'm not seeing TPA-CMH/IND/MCI/MKE/MSP/BNA/STL for sale at all, a few other routes end before the end of the schedule. Of the 8 routes they announced from MIA, only SJU remains and even that ends before the end of the schedule. Now TPA and MIA can be seasonal, so I check MCO and MCO-CID/TYS are also gone - if a route to MCO can't make it in the summer, I can't imagine it would work any other time of year. I won't go through the entire list, but already that is way more than you cited.
msycajun wrote:F9LASDEN wrote:717atOGG wrote:Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.
On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.
Of the 85 routes announced last July, 12 have been cut: CLT-ISP, MCO-CUN, ORD-ONT, CVG-SEA, DTW-ISP, MIA-ISP (although it’s rumored that this route is coming back next winter), ISP-MSP, ISP-MSY, OKC-SAN, BNA-TPA, MSY-PVD, and SAN-TUL. I believe a few of these routes were cut before they even began (CLT-ISP and ORD-ONT are two I know for sure, and I believe that CVG-SEA suffered the same fate). DEN, the station that had the most routes announced last July, has managed to retain all 21 of the routes they announced from there last July (up to this point), though, as you mention, some of them have been running for a very short time (DEN-JAC just launched 4 days ago, in fact). I believe that having 73 (possibly 74) of those routes still running almost a year after that announcement is pretty good, especially given F9’s track record of quickly entering and exiting markets.
I don't have insider info, but this number seems way off to me. I picked TPA to check because they announced a ton of routes at that time. Of the 10 routes they announced, I'm not seeing TPA-CMH/IND/MCI/MKE/MSP/BNA/STL for sale at all, a few other routes end before the end of the schedule. Of the 8 routes they announced from MIA, only SJU remains and even that ends before the end of the schedule. Now TPA and MIA can be seasonal, so I check MCO and MCO-CID/TYS are also gone - if a route to MCO can't make it in the summer, I can't imagine it would work any other time of year. I won't go through the entire list, but already that is way more than you cited.
Balloonchaser wrote:F9LASDEN wrote:717atOGG wrote:Does anybody know how many of the 85 routes from Frontier's mega-expansion in July 2017 are still operating (routes made seasonal still included)? I know that lots, if not all, of the DEN routes have stuck (even though some of the DEN routes have only operated for a short time), but I don't know how many of the other routes are still around.
On another note, I agree with others on this forum that while it's frustrating to keep track of the F9 network, it's nice to see them trying unique routes and basically becoming the American FR/U2, and I feel like more of their routes are sticking around now compared to 2-3 years ago, which is a good sign.
Of the 85 routes announced last July, 12 have been cut: CLT-ISP, MCO-CUN, ORD-ONT, CVG-SEA, DTW-ISP, MIA-ISP (although it’s rumored that this route is coming back next winter), ISP-MSP, ISP-MSY, OKC-SAN, BNA-TPA, MSY-PVD, and SAN-TUL. I believe a few of these routes were cut before they even began (CLT-ISP and ORD-ONT are two I know for sure, and I believe that CVG-SEA suffered the same fate). DEN, the station that had the most routes announced last July, has managed to retain all 21 of the routes they announced from there last July (up to this point), though, as you mention, some of them have been running for a very short time (DEN-JAC just launched 4 days ago, in fact). I believe that having 73 (possibly 74) of those routes still running almost a year after that announcement is pretty good, especially given F9’s track record of quickly entering and exiting markets.
It’s actually rumored that all of Frontiers routes from Islip (ISP) will come back at some point this year or next year for a seasonal schedule.
ISP-CLT - Winter Seasonal
ISP-DTW - F9 Stated that if loads ended up being high at the end of the quarter, then they may bring it back next year
ISP-MIA - Fall/Winter Seasonal
ISP-MSP - F9 Stated that if loads ended up being high at the end of the quarter, then they may bring it back next year
ISP-MSY - Spring/Summer Seasonal
jplatts wrote:F9 has not announced any new nonstop routes out of CVG since September 2017. F9 has recently started service out of MYR, CHS, SAV, and PNS, but F9 has never served any of these 4 leisure destinations nonstop from CVG. Will F9 be announcing nonstop service to any of these 4 leisure destinations from CVG anytime soon?
Will F9 announce any other new nonstop routes out of CVG such as CVG-MSY, CVG-MCI, or CVG-SLC soon?
cvgComair wrote:I personally think that expansion at CVG is going to slow to a crawl for F9. As predicted when WN first arrived at CVG, I think WN is going to take over F9's current role at CVG. DL is also certainly forcing the pressure, as they compete with on most of F9's routes. I can see some more seasonal 2-3x/wk flights, but I don't see anymore of the massive expansions like they were doing in years past. G4 has taken over the role as #1 LCC at CVG and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
mariner wrote:cvgComair wrote:I personally think that expansion at CVG is going to slow to a crawl for F9. As predicted when WN first arrived at CVG, I think WN is going to take over F9's current role at CVG. DL is also certainly forcing the pressure, as they compete with on most of F9's routes. I can see some more seasonal 2-3x/wk flights, but I don't see anymore of the massive expansions like they were doing in years past. G4 has taken over the role as #1 LCC at CVG and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Well - maybe. Anything's possible. But it's only six (?) weeks since Frontier had a big expansion at CVG:
https://www.lanereport.com/88958/2018/0 ... rs-at-cvg/
Frontier Airlines adds new routes, resumes others at CVG. The new routes launching in April are:
Austin, Tx. (April, 8)
Jacksonville, Fl. (April, 8)
San Jose, Ca. (April, 8)
Raleigh/Durham, NC (April, 9)
San Antonio, Tx. (April, 9)
Frontier will also resume service to/from Atlanta, Dallas, Philadelphia and San Diego on April, 8 with service resuming to Los Angeles, Minneapolis and Philadelphia on April, 9.
So, yeh, maybe that's it for a while. On the other hand - maybe not. In any event, it seems a little soon to predict the limits of Frontier at CVG.
mariner
cvgComair wrote:mariner wrote:cvgComair wrote:I personally think that expansion at CVG is going to slow to a crawl for F9. As predicted when WN first arrived at CVG, I think WN is going to take over F9's current role at CVG. DL is also certainly forcing the pressure, as they compete with on most of F9's routes. I can see some more seasonal 2-3x/wk flights, but I don't see anymore of the massive expansions like they were doing in years past. G4 has taken over the role as #1 LCC at CVG and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Well - maybe. Anything's possible. But it's only six (?) weeks since Frontier had a big expansion at CVG:
https://www.lanereport.com/88958/2018/0 ... rs-at-cvg/
Frontier Airlines adds new routes, resumes others at CVG. The new routes launching in April are:
Austin, Tx. (April, 8)
Jacksonville, Fl. (April, 8)
San Jose, Ca. (April, 8)
Raleigh/Durham, NC (April, 9)
San Antonio, Tx. (April, 9)
Frontier will also resume service to/from Atlanta, Dallas, Philadelphia and San Diego on April, 8 with service resuming to Los Angeles, Minneapolis and Philadelphia on April, 9.
So, yeh, maybe that's it for a while. On the other hand - maybe not. In any event, it seems a little soon to predict the limits of Frontier at CVG.
mariner
Yeah, but those were announced all the way back in July 2017. Since then, all they have done is reduced routes from CVG CVG-SEA/MIA/FLL/PHX/PHL/CUN/IAH/SFO were cut, CVG-DEN/MCO/LAS/SFO/LAX lost frequency, and this fall many of the new routes will see more slashes in frequency. The adds of CVG-RDU/AUS/SAT/JAX/SJC helped offset this slightly, but seats are down YOY. Overall, it doesn't look very good.
cvgComair wrote:Yeah, but those were announced all the way back in July 2017. Since then, all they have done is reduced routes from CVG CVG-SEA/MIA/FLL/PHX/PHL/CUN/IAH/SFO were cut, CVG-DEN/MCO/LAS/SFO/LAX lost frequency, and this fall many of the new routes will see more slashes in frequency. The adds of CVG-RDU/AUS/SAT/JAX/SJC helped offset this slightly, but seats are down YOY. Overall, it doesn't look very good.
717atOGG wrote:I've been doing some research about the lack of IAD domestic service, similar to MXP in Europe until U2 expanded there, and I think that if F9 has some patience with making routes from there work, IAD could feasibly become a larger station for F9, about the size of CVG, LAS, or MCO. There's plenty of gate space at IAD during non-peak hours, so space wouldn't be an issue, the only problem I can think of is if there's enough room in the market for them, with the 600-pound gorilla at BWI known as WN and NK having a not-insignificant operation there either, and AA in DCA, and obviously UA in IAD. Of course, if UA pulls the same stunt they did to kick out Independence Air, the idea is toast, but I still think that F9 expanding is an interesting idea and something to consider.
Here's some of the markets that F9 could add. I chose a mixture of high-demand routes from IAD and trendy F9 markets that they don't already serve from IAD. For a frame of reference, they currently do AUS, LAS (though it's ending in August), MCO, SAT, and TUL year-round and COS and DEN seasonally. Also note that some markets are meant to be seasonal, namely SAV, CHS, MYR, and PWM in the summer and PBI and RSW in the winter.
