Airbus is integral to the success of the C-Series. If it had stayed exclusively with BBD, it’d be a dead duck soon. The plane needed the strengths Airbus brings—financial security, lower cost supply chain, customer support, confidence in the airline industry. BBD lacked all of that.

GF

speedbird52 wrote:

YuriMG2 wrote:

SteinarN wrote:

Wow! Absolutely fantastic news. My faith in fair competition based on products and performance is greatly restored when reading this.

Subsidy, selling the planes for a fraction of the price, selling ur soul because of incompetence.

Are you really serious about the fair competition or ur just anti-Boeing?

Nothing stops Boeing from competing except the lack of a competing product. A 737-700 doesn’t do the same job as a c series, and it doesn’t do that job even half as well. It’s a shitty plane.

The big deal with DL, was engines. Boeing went with a single engine supplier for that MAX in the LEAP, and CFM did not want to let DL do the MRO work on the LEAP.

That's why DL went with the Cseries; engines, and price. I believe DL knew Pratt would give them the MRO capability, and the Airbus order sealed the deal.

ADrum23 wrote:

Why exactly was Boeing pursuing this in the first place when they don't have a comparable product to compete with? I always thought the CS100 was more of a glorified large-end regional jet that was outside of the range of what Boeing built. Was this more of the fact that they were afraid the larger CSeries planes (CS300?) could go head to head with the 737's in the future?

I am a Boeing fan in general, but I disagree with them 100,000% on this. Boeing needs to stop this nonsense, do what they can to mend fences (which will be difficult), fire the people involved in this decision to pursue this case and improve their products so they can compete better. Admittingly, other than the 787 Dreamliner, all of their products have been subpar to Airbus over the last decade. The 737 MAX is ok, but not nearly as good as the A320neo series. They are steadily losing ground, particularly in the narrowbody market. Boeing needs to focus on developing the MOM and try to win back customers.

That glorified regional jet has 3100 & 3300nm ranges. Not that far off from Boeing's. But not those figures are with 225 lb./passenger on the CS series. how much farther will it fly using Boeing (I beleave 210 lb./pass on NB) or airbus (199 lb./pass) figures. After all the A321neo range is 3500nm with 206 36"/30" seating & 3700nm with only the old 185 36"/32" seat layout.

Why are some automatically assuming Delta will start to return the 717s when their leases expire? The CSeries was not ordered as a replacement aircraft for the 717 but rather for a hybrid 50 seater/MD-88 replacement and for growth. Unless the 717 engine maintenance cost skyrockets, Delta is going to keep these aircraft until they cycle out. If the price of oil continues to rise, it will be the 50 seaters and possibly an acceleration of the MD-88/MD-90s being put out to pasture.

aerolimani wrote:

SumChristianus wrote:

Will this end the tariffs though? International decisions may not necessarily be followed, or have to be, by a sovereign. I wish the President would stand up to an all too powerful Boeing, and ignore their manipiulations, but Boeing seems very good at pressing a case domestically. The A330MRTT/767 debacle, for example, where Boeing broke an agreed upon Air Force Contract, to be produced in AL (A330 tankers) in favor of Boeing for some reason.
B6 would be a great CS100 operator if they are able to reasonably acquire them, though.

The ITC is a US organization. Officially, it is actually the USITC, the United States International Trade Commission.

Great, did not realize that. Hope I get to fly on one someday, DL, B6, maybe UA!

The Federal Canadian government contribution was a modest repayable loan that includes interest. How is that a subsidy? The loan also came very late in the game when the risk had become much reduced.

Of course, it was. Boeing doesn’t even produce a competitive product to the C-Series. In any case, they were offering a worse product at a highly discounted price. I think it’s good business for the US consumer to benefit from Canadians subsidizing their planes. Whether it’s good for Canadians is another question. Boeing’s products are subsidized by the Ex-Im Bank for foreign buyers.

Funny, you post Bastian’s quote when you support just the opposite.

GF

777Mech wrote:

Embraer was too stupid to build an airplane big enough to get around the scope issues until it was too late. Even with the E2 it's just not economical.
Brazil is a basket case anyways.

Is it? Would you like to elaborate?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Of course, it was. Boeing doesn’t even produce a competitive product to the C-Series. In any case, they were offering a worse product at a highly discounted price. I think it’s good business for the US consumer to benefit from Canadians subsidizing their planes. Whether it’s good for Canadians is another question. Boeing’s products are subsidized by the Ex-Im Bank for foreign buyers.

GF

Wrong, it never was. And in fact Delta chose to buy used E190s OVER the C series, which goes to show the argument that they bought the c series for its technology is utter BS. DL bought the competition first, then went back after Canada threw in hundreds of millions of dollars.

Canada has its own ExIm Bank.

Waterbomber wrote:

I think that I must beg to differ with some opinions above.

I think that at this stage, Boeing wanted this and probably even lobbied for it. The reason they wanted this is that the tariffs are no longer a factor given that Airbus is involved and Mobile assembly lines will circumvent the earlier ruling.
The ITC decision could do no futher harm to Boeing.

Instead, this decision is good for Boeing. They can now go to Embraer and dictate terms.
If Embraer doesn't take Boeing's deal, Boeing will be happy to keep offering B737's against the CSeries and win some, lose some, but Embraer will be driven out of the market.

"Only when the tide goes out, do you discover who's been swimming naked".

The Canadians have given up their ego, but they've kept their jobs and further down the line, they can polish up their pride when the Cseries flies all around the world.
Will the Brazilians give up their ego's? I doubt it, based on what we've seen coming from the Embraer die-hards on airlines.net
Without a deal, Embraer is on the way out.

Don't really think that the Brazilians want to sell to Boeing

They’ll sell when snow falls on Christ the Redeemer.

No way was DL really gonna take delivery on those unreliable E190 wrecks from AC who didn’t want them. It was part of a Boe8ng deal BEFORE the 737 deal.


GF

QuarkFly wrote:

Wow !! That is a surprise. I don't know if there is an appeals process. Maybe B will come to its senses and realize that it may have more to lose on the defense side with Canada...and steps back from the war on C-Series.

But I hope Delta does not wait for some US assembly facility... and takes the C-Series as soon as possible.

Appeal from an ITC decision is to the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, which sits in DC. CAFC's main activity is hearing patent appeals, so the judges are some of the best in the entire federal judiciary. Appeal from CAFC is to the US Supreme Court.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

They’ll sell when snow falls on Christ the Redeemer.

No way was DL really gonna take delivery on those unreliable E190 wrecks from AC who didn’t want them. It was part of a Boe8ng deal BEFORE the 737 deal.


GF

They bought AND took delivery. And DL isn't stupid, it's your argument that's a wreck.

The other thing is now: does this mean the official death knell for the A319neo? I would expect that Airbus and Bombardier might try to stretch the range a bit more to 3500 nmi for the CS300. Bombardier and Airbus should be hard at work at doing whatever improvements are needed for hot and high performance at airfields such as BOG and MEX, perhaps pitching Mexican LCCs, Avianca, and Copa (its Colombian subsidiary is based at BOG) on this model. A real wild card could be WN, which could end up with a mixed fleet rather than just being a loyal 737 customer, as they could be sold on the lighter CS300 in a Y140 or Y143 configuration (its exit door limit is 160). There are no 737-700 missions requiring the maximum range of the 737-700. (For corporate jet customers who ordered the A319neo, the A320neo could be the basis for the corporate jet going forward.)

They were not stupid, they got rid of them without wasting the effort to put them in service. I thought they turned them down, reading from the Delta forum elsewhere. None of the DL pilots were trained. The C-Series is a far better plane for cheap money.

GF

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

They were not stupid, they got rid of them without wasting the effort to put them in service. I thought they turned them down, reading from the Delta forum elsewhere. None of the DL pilots were trained. The C-Series is a far better plane for cheap money.

GF

They bought them, took delivery and only sold them when Canada offered them free airplanes. The CS100 costs the same to operate as the E2s and millions more in acquisition costs, unless, of course, you get a number of them for effectively free.

E190s are popular the world over and still sell. Don't let JetBlue's experience with early built frames cloud your judgement.

WPvsMW wrote:

QuarkFly wrote:

Wow !! That is a surprise. I don't know if there is an appeals process. Maybe B will come to its senses and realize that it may have more to lose on the defense side with Canada...and steps back from the war on C-Series.

But I hope Delta does not wait for some US assembly facility... and takes the C-Series as soon as possible.

Appeal from an ITC decision is to the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, which sits in DC. CAFC's main activity is hearing patent appeals, so the judges are some of the best in the entire federal judiciary. Appeal from CAFC is to the US Supreme Court.

Bzzzzt. On Title VII cases, the appeal is to the Court of International Trade in New York, and then an appeal from the CIT would go to the CAFC.

Boeing/Embraer deal:

1 - No takeover, just a partnership

2 - Government keeps the golden share to veto any crazy act by Boeing.

3 - Keep Embraer Defense out of it. They can help sell the A29 and the KC390 and get a %, but thats it. Production lines in Brazil.

4 - Any existint production line in Brazil MUST be kept in Brazil.

5 - If the E2 program grows and new lines are needed, the majority % of those new lines should be in Brazil. Its a Brazilian plane, you will not send production to Australia (just a example).

6 - Make Brazil a hub for Boeing components production (Not from Embraer planes, but Boeing's) like speculated today.

7 - Wanna use Embraers engeneers to built a new 737? Bring a % of the lines to Brazil.

8 - Wanna use them to the new 797 as especulated? % of Production lines in Brazil.

9 - Failed to keep the terms? Embraer goes back to the Brazilian Government after paying a big fine and then the Government can re-privatize the Embraer again and make more money out of it.

I think its enough to start a negotiation. Otherwise it will be just like the other ''partners''. Keep some production lines in Brazil, close them after 5 years and Embraer is out of the map.

Delta bought those used E190 from Boeing but they were never put in service.

Most (or all?) were promptly resold.

ExMilitaryEng wrote:

Delta bought those used E190 from Boeing but they were never put in service.

Most (or all?) were promptly resold.

If by "promptly" you mean after a massive deal from the Canadian government, then I agree with you.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... al-424732/

As far as subsidies go Boeing invented the game. There is no greater subsidy machine than American military procurement. Didn't the KC-135 and B-52 programs allow Boeing to become massive way back in the fifties? They never looked back.

They were never in service because they got some almost free planes from Canada. Any company with a right mind would resell the E190 to use the brand new CS that costs basically nothing from them.

"The Atlanta-based carrier will begin flying the E190s in early 2017. . ."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 0s-420140/

Delta's CSeries order came in April 2016, 3 months after ordering the E190s. No way your oder a new fleet type and EIS it in less than 3 months.

The article above is also evidence that Delta had been courting those E190s for at least several months prior to actually ordering it.

Skywatcher wrote:

As far as subsidies go Boeing invented the game. There is no greater subsidy machine than American military procurement. Didn't the KC-135 and B-52 programs allow Boeing to become massive way back in the fifties? They never looked back.

The KC-135, B-52, and the B-47' s before them were products the US government needed. They weren't subsidies.

MSPNWA wrote:

admanager wrote:

I'm assuming the deal with Airbus for shared ownership and new line in AL is going to stand.

There's no point for a Mobile line without U.S. tariffs.

There is if orders start flying in.

PPVRA wrote:

"The Atlanta-based carrier will begin flying the E190s in early 2017. . ."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 0s-420140/

Delta's CSeries order came in April 2016, 3 months after ordering the E190s. No way your oder a new fleet type and EIS it in less than 3 months.

The article above is also evidence that Delta had been courting those E190s for at least several months prior to actually ordering it.

IIRC the E190 deal was contingent on the pilots passing a TA on their new contract that was attached to another order for more 739s. This was a carrot that was dangled above the pilots head.

The pilots told DL to piss off and the E190s were sold and they still ended up ordering the 739s. Besides the C series is a far superior airplane for DLs needs than the E190 anyways.

FWIW they did make a profit on the sale of the E190s.

speedbird52 wrote:

YuriMG2 wrote:

SteinarN wrote:

Wow! Absolutely fantastic news. My faith in fair competition based on products and performance is greatly restored when reading this.

Subsidy, selling the planes for a fraction of the price, selling ur soul because of incompetence.

Are you really serious about the fair competition or ur just anti-Boeing?

Nothing stops Boeing from competing except the lack of a competing product. A 737-700 doesn’t do the same job as a c series, and it doesn’t do that job even half as well. It’s a shitty plane.

The 737-700 isn't a bad plane, it's just not that efficient for short range routes the way a C-Series is. It's still a pretty good plane for longer thin routes.

PPVRA wrote:

"The Atlanta-based carrier will begin flying the E190s in early 2017. . ."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 0s-420140/

Delta's CSeries order came in April 2016, 3 months after ordering the E190s. No way your oder a new fleet type and EIS it in less than 3 months.

The article above is also evidence that Delta had been courting those E190s for at least several months prior to actually ordering it.

Basically if there werent any dumping and subsidies from BBD and Canada and planes could compete with fair prices, Delta wouldve picked old E190 over the CS?

Now thats interesting (and embarrasing).

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Well, BBD can’t make money at the price offered DL, but that’s besides the point. BBD is “buying” into the market to prove the plane. With Airbus now behind it, they can offer at higher prices leveraging DL’s reputation and experience, presumably, backing the plane to other buyers. I suspect, AA, UA or JB might buy, but the market for this size is still a niche-maybe 1200 sales thru 2027.

GF

..............stop it! stop it, you're killing me........Like AA,UA and JB, will not want the same deal Delta got.........

In my ideal world Delta will end up with around 75 CS100 and a further 125-150 CS 300 but at same time negotiate with their pilots to allow their contracted lift suppliers (which some still refer to as regional airlines) enough relaxation on scope limits so they can operate Embraer E175E2's. I would love to see that aircraft serving the towns in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan instead of the 50pax CRJ's. I remember the DC9-10s that operated some of the routes up here alongside the Convair 580's.

As I stated in the original thread on this issue, I'm a Boeing shareholder. I'm proud of "my" company. I like "my" company's products. I prefer to fly Boeing jets. However, I'm also glad that "my" company lost this round. Without a directly comparable competitor to the C-Series, Boeing's actions looked like cheap bullying tactics. I hope this will spur Boeing to actually design and compete, and not litigate. I also hope that whomever made the final decision to go after Bombardier loses his job, and fast. This stupid action has cost Boeing any hope of selling Super Hornets to Canada and alienated Delta, a major customer who now appears more firmly wedded to Airbus than ever before. These legal challenges have only served to cost sales and market share, harming the company, long term profits and investors such as myself.

The bottom line is that Boeing is better than this. Now, they need to step back, reevaluate and do what Boeing has, in the past, done best: innovate and compete.

MSPNWA wrote:

The irony of that is the general consensus among airlines and even the ITC itself doesn't agree with that statement. They both say they compete.

And then the ITC voted for no harm. Very curious.

You make a good point, there must be a conspiracy going on. The Canadians have infiltrated the USITC, perhaps with some under the table deals. I believe a USITC purge should be on order.

MSPNWA wrote:

I think what's most amusing about the foaming at the mouth against Boeing is that the biggest loser after this decision isn't Boeing. It's Embraer. They compete even more closely, and now a key market in the U.S. is heavily tilted against them.

If I were to take Boeing's viewpoint/words and 100% honesty, the CSeries wouldn't compete with Embraer's E-Jet family :

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... la-445019/

"CSeries directly competes today, and will directly compete tomorrow, with the 737-700 and the 737 Max 7 in the 100- to 150-seat [large commercial aircraft] market, while Embraer's regional jets simply do not and will not," Boeing's filing says.

Boeing says they do not compete, I cannot argue with that. Boeing doesn't lie.

LockheedBBD wrote:

MSPNWA wrote:

The irony of that is the general consensus among airlines and even the ITC itself doesn't agree with that statement. They both say they compete.

And then the ITC voted for no harm. Very curious.

You make a good point, there must be a conspiracy going on. The Canadians have infiltrated the USITC, perhaps with some under the table deals. I believe a USITC purge should be on order.

If it's not the Russians in American government, now it's the Canadians!!!

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

BOOM! No to corporate welfare!

Bombardier also benefits from corporate welfare...although it is a foreign government doing the heavy lifting in this case.

airfrnt wrote:

Or just accept open governmental handouts openly like their competitors.

If Boeing/Airbus want to compete on an even playing field with the government funded COMAC/IRKUT/Sukhoi in the future, government handouts will be the way to go.

rbavfan wrote:

Daocheng Yading airport in tibet?

Yes, and several others that currently sees A319 as almost an exclusive a/c type, e.g. KGT, NGQ, and even LXA itself (LXA can only go 757 or A319 as far as the narrowbody goes currently).

Ps. Daocheng Yading is in Sichuan Province instead of Tibet. I happened to know the ATC that was stationed there until a couple months ago.

Michael

c933103 wrote:

In earlier report, Boeong say they predicted the 100-150seats market is sized at about 3500-4500 aircrafts and they expect 737 7 to capture half of it?

That is correct: https://leehamnews.com/2018/01/24/boein ... tor-737-7/

BaconButty wrote:

cumulushumilis wrote:

What is known for sure is the loss of a 6.3 Billion CAD contract for 18 Super Hornets. Boeing spun the wheel and lost on double zero: ensured the survival of a competitor and pissed off a defence customer.

Two pissed off defence customers.

Boeing doesn't need to worry about the Brits, they are softies. It's more talk and less walk, as per last night's BBC story on the UK's involvement in the Bombardier complaint. It's just a show for Theresa May so she can stay in power. The UK will continue to purchase Boeing military products.

Slug71 wrote:

The ITC disagrees. And clearly it ISN'T "illegal". Boeing didn't even have a product to compete with to begin.

If I worked for Embraer (or lived in Brazil), I wouldn't be too happy that a bailed out company is allowed to sell their planes at low cost in one of the largest regional jet markets in the world.

PPVRA wrote:

And if you have evidence of the US government subsidizing a highly competitive sale like this was to the time of hundreds of millions of dollars, then please post it.

I'm not sure I would go as far as saying Boeing's offering of used E190s and scrap 717s to Delta was highly competitive, but I understand the gist of it.

YuriMG2 wrote:

I am. And I want Boeing to back the f away from Embraer. We know how Boeing works on those partnership: Take over then kill it.

But if this happens, I hope Embraer and Brazilian Government take every penny they can out of it.

But if it was up to me there would be no deal.

At the very least, Embraer should be proud that they know how to design great aircraft, and they deliver them on time and on budget. There's probably a reason why Boeing skipped over a chnace to buy the CSeries, and chose to deal with Embraer instead. Embraer has more to offer than just an aircraft.

I have to admit I am becoming very Anti-Boeing due to their recent antics. Very happy for Bombardier and Airbus and the US market in general. Cseries has a lot of US components, to be built in America alongside American A320/1s in Mobile. Airbus is becoming as American as it is Chinese and European, fingers in pies all around the world and that is the only reason that the Cseries tariffs have been lifted. Selling the Cseries in America will be more beneficial to America than imposing the tariffs through jobs, taxes and airlines profits.

Boeing now needs to look towards the future, stop hanging onto the past and be better. They need to put their hands in their pockets and get two new aircraft families out in the next 20 years (MOM and 737 replacement). Keep the 787 up as that is the only plane they have I feel is leading the way at the moment. Everything else there is something better out there.

I believe this is not so much a loss for Boeing, the US Department of Commerce is more to blame for losing this case. At the start of this case Boeing did not ask for a 300% tariff, they just asked for 80%. If the US Department of Commerce wouldn't have gone over the top with the tariff and kept it 80% it could have been a completely different case for the ITC with a different outcome.

It's good that there are independent agencies like the United States International Trade Commission which are not going to be influenced by the policies of the party that happens to be in charge of the government at the moment.

For Boeing it's just matter of you win some, you lose some, now back to business. For the C-Series program it's exactly the same, trying to turn it into some profit at some point in time with the help of Airbus. With all the legal departments at all these companies just gearing up for the next much less high profile cases that could have a much bigger impact on the operations of their companies.

A surprise, but a pleasant one. Finally checks and balance at work and professionalism prevails. Boeing simply does not have a product to compete. If an airline issue a RFP asking for a plane with a seating capacity of 110 seats, Boeing is not even qualified to submit a bid. I don't see how it "lost" because someone else offered a "subsidized" product when it cannot even offer a product at all.

And that's essentially the argument of ITC.

There is one subtle thing Boeing won. By forcing the CSeries program into the hands of Airbus, Boeing (and Airbus) have now guarantee that there will not be a CS500, which will be a direct (and more formidable) competitor of both 737MAX and A320NEO. They now guarantee that they will own the more lucrative 150-seat market for the next 10 years. I don't think anyone thinks that the C919 and MS21 are real competitors in the short term.

And all the while Boeing manages to loose an almost guaranteed multi billion dollar super hornet deal! Flabbergasted!

Congratulations to Airbus/Bombardier/Delta and the ITC. Finally, common sense prevailed. Over 50% of the C series is made in America and I find it hard to believe that a trade complaint can be made against a largely American made product by another American company. It sounds more like one American company is trying to eliminate the competition and secure a monopoly for itself by pulling its political strings.

william wrote:

:rotfl: ..............stop it! stop it, you're killing me........Like AA,UA and JB, will not want the same deal Delta got.........

DL made the risky early order. The low price reflected that. The others would order a much more approved plane (first alone because DL selected it and second because it is backed by Airbus now), hence no more hefty early bird discounts...

So all Boeing accomplished by the whole exercise was to transform the CSeries from an unproven (first BBDs product with that size), risky (due to BBDs weak future) aircraft into a solid opponent. As a result beside the lost DL deal, Boeing will loose much more sales in the future around the world.

LockheedBBD wrote:

BaconButty wrote:

cumulushumilis wrote:

What is known for sure is the loss of a 6.3 Billion CAD contract for 18 Super Hornets. Boeing spun the wheel and lost on double zero: ensured the survival of a competitor and pissed off a defence customer.

Two pissed off defence customers.

Boeing doesn't need to worry about the Brits, they are softies. It's more talk and less walk, as per last night's BBC story on the UK's involvement in the Bombardier complaint. It's just a show for Theresa May so she can stay in power. The UK will continue to purchase Boeing military products.

What does 'they are softies' mean? Do you suggest that Boeing doesn't care about their British market outside of the Defense sector?
Sticking to the the thread, Bombardier staff in NI are core to the overall success of the CS Series Program for all involved.

Fantastic news for Airbus and the C-Series or soon A315...