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maximairways
Posts: 97
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:11 pm

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
maximairways wrote:

There are no incentives, NY doesn't offer incentives. Also, its 5x weekly through April before returning to daily in June.

The airport director noted in the past that bookings are inline with expectations.

Not quite sure why you think there are no incentives. The NFTA has very competitive incentives packages for carriers launching targeted new routes from BUF


They do have incentives for BNIA .... i saw the list and how much money. But it was few years old. If i find the website or list, ill post the link.

As for the Jetblue LA - BUF route - Yes, I read or heard in the Buffalo News that bookings were in line with expectations. No issues at all.



The certainly do not, a recent article mentioned how the are unable to offer incentives like other states.

But Hartford’s Bradley landed Aer Lingus with an incentive package — up to $9 million in revenue guarantees over two years offered by the State of Connecticut — along with a $3.6 million marketing program over the next three years.
Vanecek says New York offers no similar incentives. Neither does any local government like Erie County. As a result, competing against such incentives proves difficult for the NFTA when international carriers explore new U.S. airports.


They do offer advertising incentives, and limited waived landing fees.
http://buffaloairport.com/pdfs/incentiveprogram.pdf
But the LAX flight's waiver would have expired in June of 2017 (12 months after starting service).
Last edited by maximairways on Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:31 pm

a lot of this thread is in the clouds but ill add a few things...

First off, what occurred in the Auto Industry that lead to the demise of the daily always full DC10 that went DTW-KIX? and why could that not be started again? I do agree we need some more feed but there are atleast 10 airports that could easily be added 2 daily, once for asia and once for Europe to help with all this.

That said I see DTW-HKG returning. DL is very very happy with the A350, they will either confirm the remainder of the order or turn those into 1000xwbs.
One of the DTW-AMS should return to KLM, it only makes sense, especially for passengers to see KLM and then ah, see lots of KLM at Schipol.

WestJet is very exciting and I too see DTW-YYC asap on their metal, DTW-YVR year round with their metal would be nice, but I also see them looking to fill the smaller market holes DL has struggled with, regional ops to YOW/YHZ and perhaps they split up the DTW-YYZ dailies. PD really needs to add 2 daily to YTZ but that's another story.
Last night on my flight were a bunch of people from YEG who had double connected YEG-YYZ-DTW-RSW? so Theres all kinds of untapped north of the border potential.

KE: I definitely see them being second daily, at least 5 weekly, as the current ICN flight is always full and was as a 744 for years now.

DL adds: SJC/SMF primed up and ready to go. Would be nice to see Winter seasonal RNO/ASE/TUS/PSP service, even twice weekly next year. Actually RNO would do good all year IMO. DLH/RHI and ROA are a few examples of routes that can feed but also provide some tourism for local O&D, and they've all been run but aren't any longer.
For Florida SRQ hands down, agree with poster who stated 1 daily year round and a 2nd added between Feb and May 1.
More options Seasonally for the Caribbean such as AUA/SJO & STT, and more summer seasonal like BGR (could support year round), ANC 4 weekly and JAC. I think Detroiters want to travel and if given the options of new places to explore nonstop, they will buy the tickets.
Europe: EI is launching DUB, DL could beat them to it, although I'd rather see EI and then DL add Mediterranean BCN/LIS, something like that. I also feel MUC/FCO are very close to going 9 months, FCO should be year round.

OK that's my thoughts, feel free to politely dicuss
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cvgComair
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:04 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
JDawgboy512 wrote:
Word is the Austin Chamber of Commerce will have a big Delta announcement on Feb 6th. Very curious to know what that is.


Hmmm interesting....the director of IND said the the city and the airport had a major announcement coming in the next few weeks, he refused to say anything else about it but it isn't FedEx related...

With everything that has been said up to now, it seems like announcements coming from the cities of AUS and IND, close to the same time is likely not a coincidence....

I don't think the fact that CVG/IND/AUS are hearing stuff about DL expansion at the exact same time is a coincidence, it should be interesting to see what they do/add!
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flymco753
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
a lot of this thread is in the clouds but ill add a few things...

First off, what occurred in the Auto Industry that lead to the demise of the daily always full DC10 that went DTW-KIX? and why could that not be started again? I do agree we need some more feed but there are atleast 10 airports that could easily be added 2 daily, once for asia and once for Europe to help with all this.

That said I see DTW-HKG returning. DL is very very happy with the A350, they will either confirm the remainder of the order or turn those into 1000xwbs.
One of the DTW-AMS should return to KLM, it only makes sense, especially for passengers to see KLM and then ah, see lots of KLM at Schipol.

WestJet is very exciting and I too see DTW-YYC asap on their metal, DTW-YVR year round with their metal would be nice, but I also see them looking to fill the smaller market holes DL has struggled with, regional ops to YOW/YHZ and perhaps they split up the DTW-YYZ dailies. PD really needs to add 2 daily to YTZ but that's another story.
Last night on my flight were a bunch of people from YEG who had double connected YEG-YYZ-DTW-RSW? so Theres all kinds of untapped north of the border potential.

KE: I definitely see them being second daily, at least 5 weekly, as the current ICN flight is always full and was as a 744 for years now.

DL adds: SJC/SMF primed up and ready to go. Would be nice to see Winter seasonal RNO/ASE/TUS/PSP service, even twice weekly next year. Actually RNO would do good all year IMO. DLH/RHI and ROA are a few examples of routes that can feed but also provide some tourism for local O&D, and they've all been run but aren't any longer.
For Florida SRQ hands down, agree with poster who stated 1 daily year round and a 2nd added between Feb and May 1.
More options Seasonally for the Caribbean such as AUA/SJO & STT, and more summer seasonal like BGR (could support year round), ANC 4 weekly and JAC. I think Detroiters want to travel and if given the options of new places to explore nonstop, they will buy the tickets.
Europe: EI is launching DUB, DL could beat them to it, although I'd rather see EI and then DL add Mediterranean BCN/LIS, something like that. I also feel MUC/FCO are very close to going 9 months, FCO should be year round.

OK that's my thoughts, feel free to politely dicuss
I agree with a lot of what you stated but I conflict with some too.

Internationally, by 2025 I can definitely see DUB (75W) and HKG (350) on the table for various reasons. Healthy seasonal or year round travel and corporate connections. Where I’d like to see DL get creative is by adding BCN, it’s a larger market by about 1500 or so one way, per year. It’s very leisure heavy so using a 76W would be very difficult to make a good profit because there’s virtually no front paying pax. I don’t think the 75W has the range even with restrictions? Still, BCN would be a good market for DTW in the summer. Eventually I do see KE adding a 2nd ICN, maybe split it with MSP so they get a 5x weekly flight and the rest of the frequency goes to DTW. Then you have AM who can potentially do BJX or QRO and GDL on the 190. WS would do YYC and YVR for sure, it would be interesting to see what else they’d do especially with YHZ or if they want to get creative and do YQM and YQB too. Delta’s partners are going to play a key role into not only DTW but many other stations too.

Domestically I see only SJC, SMF, ICT and VPS as only possibilities in the near future. SRQ can go 2x in the winter and daily in the summer but as to why DL doesn’t do it, I don’t know.
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Indy
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:10 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
JDawgboy512 wrote:
Word is the Austin Chamber of Commerce will have a big Delta announcement on Feb 6th. Very curious to know what that is.


Hmmm interesting....the director of IND said the the city and the airport had a major announcement coming in the next few weeks, he refused to say anything else about it but it isn't FedEx related...

With everything that has been said up to now, it seems like announcements coming from the cities of AUS and IND, close to the same time is likely not a coincidence....


Speculation... but what about Icelandair? They've been active lately. Could be new service announcements for both cities. Assuming AUS doesn't already have their service. I have no idea.
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jbs2886
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:17 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

From where is Delta's capacity to dump coming?


This is what I'm fascinated and befuddled with. Last year, there was a supposedly informed rumor of six cities in the running for new DL focus cities to include P2P flying and a TATL flight, especially if the airport in question was willing to pony up money. One of the conditions was no existing TATL or TPAC service, which isn't the case at AUS, but apparently they're one of them.

That rumor is apparently still valid with 4-5 more candidates in the running, but now there's also talk (from the same source on APC as well) of taking on the ULCCs head to head in some markets, which clashes with the original rumor.

How are they going to do it?


I don't know, But I have heard the aircraft flying these routes will be in non-standard configs per tech ops.


Does that mean they are picking up some non-standard configs? If so, have all the Air Berlin A332s been accounted for?
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:19 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:

This is what I'm fascinated and befuddled with. Last year, there was a supposedly informed rumor of six cities in the running for new DL focus cities to include P2P flying and a TATL flight, especially if the airport in question was willing to pony up money. One of the conditions was no existing TATL or TPAC service, which isn't the case at AUS, but apparently they're one of them.

That rumor is apparently still valid with 4-5 more candidates in the running, but now there's also talk (from the same source on APC as well) of taking on the ULCCs head to head in some markets, which clashes with the original rumor.

How are they going to do it?


I don't know, But I have heard the aircraft flying these routes will be in non-standard configs per tech ops.


Does that mean they are picking up some non-standard configs? If so, have all the Air Berlin A332s been accounted for?
The PMUS A330-300s will be up for grabs before too long, too.

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zackary747
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:21 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
JDawgboy512 wrote:
Word is the Austin Chamber of Commerce will have a big Delta announcement on Feb 6th. Very curious to know what that is.


Hmmm interesting....the director of IND said the the city and the airport had a major announcement coming in the next few weeks, he refused to say anything else about it but it isn't FedEx related...

With everything that has been said up to now, it seems like announcements coming from the cities of AUS and IND, close to the same time is likely not a coincidence....


That's very interesting. IND does very well keeping things secretive,so I am curious to see what Feb. brings in that regard.
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TransWorldOne
Posts: 261
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:22 pm

Indy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
JDawgboy512 wrote:
Word is the Austin Chamber of Commerce will have a big Delta announcement on Feb 6th. Very curious to know what that is.


Hmmm interesting....the director of IND said the the city and the airport had a major announcement coming in the next few weeks, he refused to say anything else about it but it isn't FedEx related...

With everything that has been said up to now, it seems like announcements coming from the cities of AUS and IND, close to the same time is likely not a coincidence....


Speculation... but what about Icelandair? They've been active lately. Could be new service announcements for both cities. Assuming AUS doesn't already have their service. I have no idea.


I believe AUS is out of range for an FI 757. IND isn't, though, and if the addition of similarly sized secondary Midwestern cities (MCI, CLE, etc) is any indication of their strategy I wouldn't be surprised to see FI at IND.
 
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zackary747
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:22 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
Indy wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Hmmm interesting....the director of IND said the the city and the airport had a major announcement coming in the next few weeks, he refused to say anything else about it but it isn't FedEx related...

With everything that has been said up to now, it seems like announcements coming from the cities of AUS and IND, close to the same time is likely not a coincidence....


Speculation... but what about Icelandair? They've been active lately. Could be new service announcements for both cities. Assuming AUS doesn't already have their service. I have no idea.


I believe AUS is out of range for an FI 757. IND isn't, though, and if the addition of similarly sized secondary Midwestern cities (MCI, CLE, etc) is any indication of their strategy I wouldn't be surprised to see FI at IND.


Doesn't icelandair fly their 757 from KEF-SFO and soon DFW. If that is the case, then it couldn't be out of range.
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jbs2886
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:30 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

I don't know, But I have heard the aircraft flying these routes will be in non-standard configs per tech ops.


Does that mean they are picking up some non-standard configs? If so, have all the Air Berlin A332s been accounted for?
The PMUS A330-300s will be up for grabs before too long, too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk


1) the PMUS A333s are very old
2) "before too long" is still a few years away and we are talking about this/next year, so I fail to see how its relevant.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:37 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Does that mean they are picking up some non-standard configs? If so, have all the Air Berlin A332s been accounted for?
The PMUS A330-300s will be up for grabs before too long, too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk


1) the PMUS A333s are very old
2) "before too long" is still a few years away and we are talking about this/next year, so I fail to see how its relevant.


They were supposed to be retired this year, though there's some talk that's been pushed to next year.
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TransWorldOne
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:49 pm

Doesn't icelandair fly their 757 from KEF-SFO and soon DFW. If that is the case, then it couldn't be out of range.[/quote]

Icelandair just announced the resumption of SFO service and it will be on a 767 as it is too far for the 757. I believe KEF-PDX is the longest FI flight on the 757.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:53 pm

Capn wrote:
My thoughts ( for what they are worth )


BOS- ROC CLE STL LAS SJC SAN ORD DFW MSY CLT PHL DCA SDF ICN FRA


Most are possible except

SAN/SJC - struggles with non-hub transcons (SFO) make these less likely

CLT- would a return to GSO be a better idea? I know it's close to RDU but unserved.

I just don't see FRA. It's just not the size of BOS-LON/DUB a seasonal FCO may be in play based on what happens to AZ. I think they would proabably send a seasonal 757 to EDI/GLA instead if BOS transatlantic is extended. Also is there a third hub bank in AMS that could be hit with a 10 -11 pm departure?
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Capn
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:31 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
Capn wrote:
My thoughts ( for what they are worth )


BOS- ROC CLE STL LAS SJC SAN ORD DFW MSY CLT PHL DCA SDF ICN FRA


Most are possible except

SAN/SJC - struggles with non-hub transcons (SFO) make these less likely

CLT- would a return to GSO be a better idea? I know it's close to RDU but unserved.

I just don't see FRA. It's just not the size of BOS-LON/DUB a seasonal FCO may be in play based on what happens to AZ. I think they would proabably send a seasonal 757 to EDI/GLA instead if BOS transatlantic is extended. Also is there a third hub bank in AMS that could be hit with a 10 -11 pm departure?


Reason I added FRA was because NW flew it years ago, and I believe it did quite well.
Also could you tell me how you quote just one sentence in a reply without having to repeat the whole post.
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Capn
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:35 pm

DELTA is also adding a third OMA and SAT besides prev. mentioned STL from SLC.
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jbs2886
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:59 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
I am trying to piece some things together here. So if someone could clear things up that would be great.

I see people talking about an AUS announcement on feb 6. Is this a rumor or is there some kind of article on it? Do we know it is DL or could it be anything?
Also same question for IND and CVG. I see mentions of DL adding there, but again is it a rumor? Is DL mentioned specifically or could it be anything?

Just trying to separate rumors from what is actually documented. Thanks!


It’s all rumors
 
Jshank83
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:01 pm

I am trying to piece some things together here. So if someone could clear things up that would be great.

I see people talking about an AUS announcement on feb 6. Is this a rumor or is there some kind of article on it? Do we know it is DL or could it be anything?
Also same question for IND and CVG. I see mentions of DL adding there, but again is it a rumor? Is DL mentioned specifically or could it be anything?

Just trying to separate rumors from what is actually documented. Thanks!
 
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cvgComair
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:24 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I am trying to piece some things together here. So if someone could clear things up that would be great.

I see people talking about an AUS announcement on feb 6. Is this a rumor or is there some kind of article on it? Do we know it is DL or could it be anything?
Also same question for IND and CVG. I see mentions of DL adding there, but again is it a rumor? Is DL mentioned specifically or could it be anything?

Just trying to separate rumors from what is actually documented. Thanks!


It’s all rumors

The CVG changes have been confirmed by airport officials and Delta themselves. The Delta CVG station manager tweeted out to “expect more great news [at CVG] from Delta in 2018.” While a spokesperson for Delta was quoted saying, “The addition of Austin later in 2018 is the next evolution in our approach to serve the most popular destinations from CVG.” Source: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... m-cvg.html. Also, an article about growth at MEM mentioned CVG and MEM working with DL to bring back its CVG-MEM service, which is consistent with the growth numerous DL reps have talked about. Source: https://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/new ... ntion.html. All of these teasers in short succession right after DL restored its first route from CVG in over a decade are all pointing towards some more DL adds.

I have not seen anything official for AUS or IND, though.
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dmorbust
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:34 pm

winginit wrote:
dmorbust wrote:
winginit wrote:

In what ways has Delta not already won NYC? Also, 'does not cut it' according to who? Certainly not shareholders. Those New York to Asia nonstops are bloodbaths for profitability, so it seems to me that it would actually be prudent to continue having JV metal fly those versus DL metal that can be better deployed elsewhere.


Delta has not already won NYC according to revenue premiums vs competitors. I believe both Jetblue and United command a premium over Delta in the NYC market according to the data.


Source? Let's have a look at that data please, because I don't recall that being the case for United. I think it's fair to put JetBlue to the side on that one since the context of the comparison was long-haul international.


I had almost forgotten where I had gotten the info, but Michman just posted it in another thread, and essentially it comes straight from Scott Kirby on a recent United earnings call:

Here's a statement from United about it's EWR margins and it's estimate for DL's profit margin in NYC (this was from 2017) --

Scott Kirby -- "We have about 15 percent margins here in Newark,” he told employees. “We estimate Delta in New York has a 4 percent profit margin, even when times are good. And American is somewhere in between."

Note that Delta itself had admitted that NYC had been unprofitable for them up until 2014, so I would not dismiss UA's estimates.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:44 pm

cvgComair wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I am trying to piece some things together here. So if someone could clear things up that would be great.

I see people talking about an AUS announcement on feb 6. Is this a rumor or is there some kind of article on it? Do we know it is DL or could it be anything?
Also same question for IND and CVG. I see mentions of DL adding there, but again is it a rumor? Is DL mentioned specifically or could it be anything?

Just trying to separate rumors from what is actually documented. Thanks!


It’s all rumors

The CVG changes have been confirmed by airport officials and Delta themselves. The Delta CVG station manager tweeted out to “expect more great news [at CVG] from Delta in 2018.” While a spokesperson for Delta was quoted saying, “The addition of Austin later in 2018 is the next evolution in our approach to serve the most popular destinations from CVG.” Source: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... m-cvg.html. Also, an article about growth at MEM mentioned CVG and MEM working with DL to bring back its CVG-MEM service, which is consistent with the growth numerous DL reps have talked about. Source: https://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/new ... ntion.html. All of these teasers in short succession right after DL restored its first route from CVG in over a decade are all pointing towards some more DL adds.

I have not seen anything official for AUS or IND, though.


That is not confirmation at all. "More great news" could be a variety of things. "Evolution in our approach" doesn't mean new destinations are imminent. Further, an article about MEM-CVG is not confirmation.

I am not saying they won't be correct, but it is rumor. As close confirmation we can get is a DL event announcement stating new routes will be announced. Thus while these may be credible sources, you are still reading in that new destinations will be announced, so it is just a more credible rumor.
 
masonh2479
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:55 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
I am trying to piece some things together here. So if someone could clear things up that would be great.

I see people talking about an AUS announcement on feb 6. Is this a rumor or is there some kind of article on it? Do we know it is DL or could it be anything?
Also same question for IND and CVG. I see mentions of DL adding there, but again is it a rumor? Is DL mentioned specifically or could it be anything?

Just trying to separate rumors from what is actually documented. Thanks!

IIRC the specific words stated at the last chamber of commerce meeting was that a “Delta Announcement” would be revealed at their annual meeting February 6th.

A forum user on a different site reported such. The comment can be found here near the end of the page: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140690&page=187
 
LAXffDUB
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:27 pm

One surprising gap in the DL network is a SEA/DUB route. There are many Puget Sound companies with their EU offices in Ireland as well as many ex-pats. It seems EI has figured that out with their plans to start service this spring. Will DL compete? And many American companies are going to need service to DUB as they move their EU offices there due to Brexit. New service from bases other than JFK and ATL would make sense.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:35 pm

Capn wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:
Capn wrote:
My thoughts ( for what they are worth )

BOS- ROC CLE STL LAS SJC SAN ORD DFW MSY CLT PHL DCA SDF ICN FRA


I just don't see FRA. It's just not the size of BOS-LON/DUB a seasonal FCO may be in play based on what happens to AZ. I think they would probably send a seasonal 757 to EDI/GLA instead if BOS transatlantic is extended. Also is there a third hub bank in AMS that could be hit with a 10 -11 pm departure?


Reason I added FRA was because NW flew it years ago, and I believe it did quite well.


It was a different industry back then. I pulled up data with 39% LF on the BOS-FRA leg (Dec 1992) - front of plane could have been sold out for all we know. That was probably a profit in 1992.

The O+D is business related I give you that but USA originating traffic doesn't vacation in FRA and that doesn't help DL on a hypothetical route. A larger non *A hub (PHL) with better connections cannot support it year-round. On top of that LH doubles frequency in summer though I've heard they are not the market leader on BOS-FRA. DL could feed some of the smaller airlines and Skyteam partners in FRA. Example: Croatian, though in *A, will feed anyone - I flew ZAG-AMS-BOS last summer. Stil its probably not enough feed and its a big market that easily supports 1-2 frequencies from the home carrier but not a BIG market served by multiple carriers.

Are there any transatlantic routes to/from FRA that are on 757?

Other than another shot in the British Isles or a 3rd AMS leaving after 10:30, DL may be tapped out in European additions in BOS even with an expanding focus city/hublet/etc the more I think of it.
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deltal1011man
Posts: 5287
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:48 pm

LAXffDUB wrote:
One surprising gap in the DL network is a SEA/DUB route. There are many Puget Sound companies with their EU offices in Ireland as well as many ex-pats. It seems EI has figured that out with their plans to start service this spring. Will DL compete? And many American companies are going to need service to DUB as they move their EU offices there due to Brexit. New service from bases other than JFK and ATL would make sense.

SEA-DUB makes very little sense for Delta and adds nothing of value to the network. If Delta grows DUB outside of ATL/JFK/BOS it will be from DTW.
DeltaRules wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

I don't know, But I have heard the aircraft flying these routes will be in non-standard configs per tech ops.


Does that mean they are picking up some non-standard configs? If so, have all the Air Berlin A332s been accounted for?
The PMUS A330-300s will be up for grabs before too long, too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

Not happening unless they go to DMS for parts.

It pretty unlikely Delta buys any used widebodies any time soon. The cost to reconfigure is very unattractive and end of the line A330 CEOs and 777s are too cheap and easy to get. Even used narrow bodies have lost there appeal because of how cheap 737NGs and 321CEOs are right now.

Varsity1 wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

From where is Delta's capacity to dump coming?


This is what I'm fascinated and befuddled with. Last year, there was a supposedly informed rumor of six cities in the running for new DL focus cities to include P2P flying and a TATL flight, especially if the airport in question was willing to pony up money. One of the conditions was no existing TATL or TPAC service, which isn't the case at AUS, but apparently they're one of them.

That rumor is apparently still valid with 4-5 more candidates in the running, but now there's also talk (from the same source on APC as well) of taking on the ULCCs head to head in some markets, which clashes with the original rumor.

How are they going to do it?


I don't know, But I have heard the aircraft flying these routes will be in non-standard configs per tech ops.

I think the reconfiguring of some of the 76L into 76Zs is turning into a nasty pilot rumor.

could be wrong though.
 
777Mech
Posts: 571
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:38 am

deltal1011man wrote:
LAXffDUB wrote:
One surprising gap in the DL network is a SEA/DUB route. There are many Puget Sound companies with their EU offices in Ireland as well as many ex-pats. It seems EI has figured that out with their plans to start service this spring. Will DL compete? And many American companies are going to need service to DUB as they move their EU offices there due to Brexit. New service from bases other than JFK and ATL would make sense.

SEA-DUB makes very little sense for Delta and adds nothing of value to the network. If Delta grows DUB outside of ATL/JFK/BOS it will be from DTW.
DeltaRules wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Does that mean they are picking up some non-standard configs? If so, have all the Air Berlin A332s been accounted for?
The PMUS A330-300s will be up for grabs before too long, too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

Not happening unless they go to DMS for parts.

It pretty unlikely Delta buys any used widebodies any time soon. The cost to reconfigure is very unattractive and end of the line A330 CEOs and 777s are too cheap and easy to get. Even used narrow bodies have lost there appeal because of how cheap 737NGs and 321CEOs are right now.

Varsity1 wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:

This is what I'm fascinated and befuddled with. Last year, there was a supposedly informed rumor of six cities in the running for new DL focus cities to include P2P flying and a TATL flight, especially if the airport in question was willing to pony up money. One of the conditions was no existing TATL or TPAC service, which isn't the case at AUS, but apparently they're one of them.

That rumor is apparently still valid with 4-5 more candidates in the running, but now there's also talk (from the same source on APC as well) of taking on the ULCCs head to head in some markets, which clashes with the original rumor.

How are they going to do it?


I don't know, But I have heard the aircraft flying these routes will be in non-standard configs per tech ops.

I think the reconfiguring of some of the 76L into 76Zs is turning into a nasty pilot rumor.

could be wrong though.


The L to Z mod is a real thing, they are scavenging seats from the retired 767s. First one will go through mods in March.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:45 am

777Mech wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
LAXffDUB wrote:
One surprising gap in the DL network is a SEA/DUB route. There are many Puget Sound companies with their EU offices in Ireland as well as many ex-pats. It seems EI has figured that out with their plans to start service this spring. Will DL compete? And many American companies are going to need service to DUB as they move their EU offices there due to Brexit. New service from bases other than JFK and ATL would make sense.

SEA-DUB makes very little sense for Delta and adds nothing of value to the network. If Delta grows DUB outside of ATL/JFK/BOS it will be from DTW.
DeltaRules wrote:
The PMUS A330-300s will be up for grabs before too long, too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

Not happening unless they go to DMS for parts.

It pretty unlikely Delta buys any used widebodies any time soon. The cost to reconfigure is very unattractive and end of the line A330 CEOs and 777s are too cheap and easy to get. Even used narrow bodies have lost there appeal because of how cheap 737NGs and 321CEOs are right now.

Varsity1 wrote:

I don't know, But I have heard the aircraft flying these routes will be in non-standard configs per tech ops.

I think the reconfiguring of some of the 76L into 76Zs is turning into a nasty pilot rumor.

could be wrong though.


The L to Z mod is a real thing, they are scavenging seats from the retired 767s. First one will go through mods in March.


So they're reconfiguring 763ERs into higher density configurations and the idea is to drop them in alongside WW/DY/FI in certain markets to try to run them off? To get the jump on the ULCCs in new markets? Both?

How much play is there in the 763ER fleet? I wouldn't mind a 763 over a 738 or 321 given the choice and if the price were right.
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Jshank83
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:46 am

masonh2479 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I am trying to piece some things together here. So if someone could clear things up that would be great.

I see people talking about an AUS announcement on feb 6. Is this a rumor or is there some kind of article on it? Do we know it is DL or could it be anything?
Also same question for IND and CVG. I see mentions of DL adding there, but again is it a rumor? Is DL mentioned specifically or could it be anything?

Just trying to separate rumors from what is actually documented. Thanks!

IIRC the specific words stated at the last chamber of commerce meeting was that a “Delta Announcement” would be revealed at their annual meeting February 6th.

A forum user on a different site reported such. The comment can be found here near the end of the page: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140690&page=187


If this was true wouldn't the newspapers have picked it up somewhere, since it was mentioned at a public meeting? I also noticed the person said he didn't have any links for it. Not saying it isn't true but you would think someone would have picked up the story. I could see it being true, just was hoping for something a little more concrete.
 
masonh2479
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:47 am

Jshank83 wrote:
masonh2479 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I am trying to piece some things together here. So if someone could clear things up that would be great.

I see people talking about an AUS announcement on feb 6. Is this a rumor or is there some kind of article on it? Do we know it is DL or could it be anything?
Also same question for IND and CVG. I see mentions of DL adding there, but again is it a rumor? Is DL mentioned specifically or could it be anything?

Just trying to separate rumors from what is actually documented. Thanks!

IIRC the specific words stated at the last chamber of commerce meeting was that a “Delta Announcement” would be revealed at their annual meeting February 6th.

A forum user on a different site reported such. The comment can be found here near the end of the page: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140690&page=187


If this was true wouldn't the newspapers have picked it up somewhere, since it was mentioned at a public meeting? I also noticed the person said he didn't have any links for it. Not saying it isn't true but you would think someone would have picked up the story. I could see it being true, just was hoping for something a little more concrete.

Yeah I wish there was an article out about it, we’ll have to wait and see what happens the 6th. Transportation is hinted in the memo for the meeting
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:05 am

777Mech wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
LAXffDUB wrote:
One surprising gap in the DL network is a SEA/DUB route. There are many Puget Sound companies with their EU offices in Ireland as well as many ex-pats. It seems EI has figured that out with their plans to start service this spring. Will DL compete? And many American companies are going to need service to DUB as they move their EU offices there due to Brexit. New service from bases other than JFK and ATL would make sense.

SEA-DUB makes very little sense for Delta and adds nothing of value to the network. If Delta grows DUB outside of ATL/JFK/BOS it will be from DTW.
DeltaRules wrote:
The PMUS A330-300s will be up for grabs before too long, too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

Not happening unless they go to DMS for parts.

It pretty unlikely Delta buys any used widebodies any time soon. The cost to reconfigure is very unattractive and end of the line A330 CEOs and 777s are too cheap and easy to get. Even used narrow bodies have lost there appeal because of how cheap 737NGs and 321CEOs are right now.

Varsity1 wrote:

I don't know, But I have heard the aircraft flying these routes will be in non-standard configs per tech ops.

I think the reconfiguring of some of the 76L into 76Zs is turning into a nasty pilot rumor.

could be wrong though.


The L to Z mod is a real thing, they are scavenging seats from the retired 767s. First one will go through mods in March.

Should have been more clear

I mean I think some pilots heard about the 76L to 76Z mods and have picked that up and turned it into "Delta is modding planes to fight against ULCCs"

DeltaRules wrote:
SEA-DUB makes very little sense for Delta and adds nothing of value to the network. If Delta grows DUB outside of ATL/JFK/BOS it will be from DTW.
So they're reconfiguring 763ERs into higher density configurations and the idea is to drop them in alongside WW/DY/FI in certain markets to try to run them off? To get the jump on the ULCCs in new markets? Both?

no they are going to a smaller C count in most of the mods they are doing. 777s will also lose C seats the they get the new D1 seat. More than likely the 764s will lose some seats upfront too.
From what I remember basically everything that isn't a LHR route or an Asian route out of SEA is going to the 76Z. LHR will stay mostly 76L and the SEA routes will be 76Ts
DeltaRules wrote:
How much play is there in the 763ER fleet? I wouldn't mind a 763 over a 738 or 321 given the choice and if the price were right.

none. Utilization on all the fleet will be the typical super high this summer.
 
winginit
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:05 am

dmorbust wrote:
winginit wrote:
dmorbust wrote:

Delta has not already won NYC according to revenue premiums vs competitors. I believe both Jetblue and United command a premium over Delta in the NYC market according to the data.


Source? Let's have a look at that data please, because I don't recall that being the case for United. I think it's fair to put JetBlue to the side on that one since the context of the comparison was long-haul international.


I had almost forgotten where I had gotten the info, but Michman just posted it in another thread, and essentially it comes straight from Scott Kirby on a recent United earnings call:

Here's a statement from United about it's EWR margins and it's estimate for DL's profit margin in NYC (this was from 2017) --

Scott Kirby -- "We have about 15 percent margins here in Newark,” he told employees. “We estimate Delta in New York has a 4 percent profit margin, even when times are good. And American is somewhere in between."

Note that Delta itself had admitted that NYC had been unprofitable for them up until 2014, so I would not dismiss UA's estimates.


But you were talking about revenue premiums and that's a stat about profit margin, which is of course different.
 
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deltacto
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:42 am

Capn wrote:
Also could you tell me how you quote just one sentence in a reply without having to repeat the whole post.
Thanksi



Yes ... this took me a while to figure out .... when you click on the "reply with quote", the whole post is repeated ... using your cursor, back up and delete everything except the sentence you want to keep.

Be sure to keep the [ quote="Capn" ] at the beginning and the [ /quote ] at the end
 
dmorbust
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:54 am

winginit wrote:
dmorbust wrote:
winginit wrote:

Source? Let's have a look at that data please, because I don't recall that being the case for United. I think it's fair to put JetBlue to the side on that one since the context of the comparison was long-haul international.


I had almost forgotten where I had gotten the info, but Michman just posted it in another thread, and essentially it comes straight from Scott Kirby on a recent United earnings call:

Here's a statement from United about it's EWR margins and it's estimate for DL's profit margin in NYC (this was from 2017) --

Scott Kirby -- "We have about 15 percent margins here in Newark,” he told employees. “We estimate Delta in New York has a 4 percent profit margin, even when times are good. And American is somewhere in between."

Note that Delta itself had admitted that NYC had been unprofitable for them up until 2014, so I would not dismiss UA's estimates.


But you were talking about revenue premiums and that's a stat about profit margin, which is of course different.


Granted, but profit margin just equals revenue minus costs. While we don't know the exact costs for each NYC operation, we do know United actually has a slightly higher CASM cost than Delta systemwide so for United to have such a significantly higher profit margin in NYC you must figure they have a revenue premium versus Delta there.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:18 pm

What do you think what will happen to the 757/767 TATL routes once the 757s und 767s are gone (which is still in a few years of course). The A330-900 will be Deltas smallest longhaul plane then, which is a huge capacity upgrade from the 763ER.

I think about routes like STR-ATL, DUS-ATL, CPH-JFK, PRG-JFK and others. Maybe some shorter routes will be operated by A321LR which Delta will get some point I am sure. But the rest and the longer ones?
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Capn
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:46 pm

deltacto wrote:
Capn wrote:
Also could you tell me how you quote just one sentence in a reply without having to repeat the whole post.
Thanksi



Yes ... this took me a while to figure out .... when you click on the "reply with quote", the whole post is repeated ... using your cursor, back up and delete everything except the sentence you want to keep.

Be sure to keep the [ quote="Capn" ] at the beginning and the [ /quote ] at the end


Thanks for the info, gonna try it right now.
P.S. I had many great friends from NE. in the 70s knew most of BOS based pilots and fas.
What a great group still in contact with several.
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Capn
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:19 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
Capn wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:

I just don't see FRA. It's just not the size of BOS-LON/DUB a seasonal FCO may be in play based on what happens to AZ. I think they would probably send a seasonal 757 to EDI/GLA instead if BOS transatlantic is extended. Also is there a third hub bank in AMS that could be hit with a 10 -11 pm departure?


Reason I added FRA was because NW flew it years ago, and I believe it did quite well.


It was a different industry back then. I pulled up data with 39% LF on the BOS-FRA leg (Dec 1992) - front of plane could have been sold out for all we know. That was probably a profit in 1992.

The O+D is business related I give you that but USA originating traffic doesn't vacation in FRA and that doesn't help DL on a hypothetical route. A larger non *A hub (PHL) with better connections cannot support it year-round. On top of that LH doubles frequency in summer though I've heard they are not the market leader on BOS-FRA. DL could feed some of the smaller airlines and Skyteam partners in FRA. Example: Croatian, though in *A, will feed anyone - I flew ZAG-AMS-BOS last summer. Stil its probably not enough feed and its a big market that easily supports 1-2 frequencies from the home carrier but not a BIG market served by multiple carriers.

Are there any transatlantic routes to/from FRA that are on 757?

Other than another shot in the British Isles or a 3rd AMS leaving after 10:30, DL may be tapped out in European additions in BOS even with an expanding focus city/hublet/etc the more I think of it.


I think that was a pretty big S.W.A.G. on my part compared to the others. I seemed to remember it doing well at the time.
I agree it would be tricky, but DELTA does well on ATL JFK DTW-FRA against LH. on those, with BOSs strong business market I think it would be possible. Oh to have more data...
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zackary747
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:30 pm

cvgComair wrote:
I think we are going to see some adds at CVG this year. The CVG station manager tweeted out to "expect more great news from Delta in 2018" in regards to CVG. Also, a spokesperson for DL said, "The addition of Austin later in 2018 is the next evolution in our approach to serve the most popular destinations from CVG." It certainly sounds like DL has new routes and capacity increases coming for CVG this year...

They have already announced CVG-AUS, plus added frequency/capacity on CVG-ATL/DTW/RDU/STL/BWI/LAX/SEA/DEN. I think CVG-MSY/SAN/JAX could be very strong adds. Apparently, CVG and MEM are working with DL to bring back CVG-MEM: https://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/new ... ntion.html.


Curious to see if they replicate some of these into IND also. After all our metros are similar and can handle their own flights without interference.
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flymco753
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:20 pm

Capn wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:
Capn wrote:

Reason I added FRA was because NW flew it years ago, and I believe it did quite well.


It was a different industry back then. I pulled up data with 39% LF on the BOS-FRA leg (Dec 1992) - front of plane could have been sold out for all we know. That was probably a profit in 1992.

The O+D is business related I give you that but USA originating traffic doesn't vacation in FRA and that doesn't help DL on a hypothetical route. A larger non *A hub (PHL) with better connections cannot support it year-round. On top of that LH doubles frequency in summer though I've heard they are not the market leader on BOS-FRA. DL could feed some of the smaller airlines and Skyteam partners in FRA. Example: Croatian, though in *A, will feed anyone - I flew ZAG-AMS-BOS last summer. Stil its probably not enough feed and its a big market that easily supports 1-2 frequencies from the home carrier but not a BIG market served by multiple carriers.

Are there any transatlantic routes to/from FRA that are on 757?

Other than another shot in the British Isles or a 3rd AMS leaving after 10:30, DL may be tapped out in European additions in BOS even with an expanding focus city/hublet/etc the more I think of it.


I think that was a pretty big S.W.A.G. on my part compared to the others. I seemed to remember it doing well at the time.
I agree it would be tricky, but DELTA does well on ATL JFK DTW-FRA against LH. on those, with BOSs strong business market I think it would be possible. Oh to have more data...
Delta, at least at this time has been leaving with an average of 85 seats open from DTW per a source that I wish to keep disclosed. Lufthansa has been going into and leaving DTW full, but strangely enough they price about the same..food for thought.
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winginit
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:20 pm

dmorbust wrote:
winginit wrote:
dmorbust wrote:

I had almost forgotten where I had gotten the info, but Michman just posted it in another thread, and essentially it comes straight from Scott Kirby on a recent United earnings call:



But you were talking about revenue premiums and that's a stat about profit margin, which is of course different.


Granted, but profit margin just equals revenue minus costs. While we don't know the exact costs for each NYC operation, we do know United actually has a slightly higher CASM cost than Delta systemwide so for United to have such a significantly higher profit margin in NYC you must figure they have a revenue premium versus Delta there.


Must you? Because what would be in my mind just as obvious would be that UA would run significantly lower costs out of EWR when compared to DL in JFK/LGA on account of the cost of doing business in New Jersey versus New York proper in addition to their 64%+ total market share that allows them to spread those costs further than DL in JFK/LGA.

Point being, I think it's a stretch to argue and assume that UA has a revenue premium to DL in the New York market so long as that claim is simply derived from a broader profit margin metric.
 
dmorbust
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:17 pm

Duplicate - mods please delete
Last edited by dmorbust on Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
dmorbust
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:19 pm

winginit wrote:
Must you? Because what would be in my mind just as obvious would be that UA would run significantly lower costs out of EWR when compared to DL in JFK/LGA on account of the cost of doing business in New Jersey versus New York proper in addition to their 64%+ total market share that allows them to spread those costs further than DL in JFK/LGA.

Point being, I think it's a stretch to argue and assume that UA has a revenue premium to DL in the New York market so long as that claim is simply derived from a broader profit margin metric.


I guess we will agree to disagree. First of all I don't think the cost of doing business in New Jersey is so much lower than New York proper, especially since all three airports are under the same PANYNJ management. Secondly, an 11% profit margin difference would require a whole lot of cost difference (11% exactly) if you are to deny that United has absolutely zero revenue premium over Delta there.
Lastly, all of this started when you asked "In what ways has Delta not already won NYC?" and then alluded to shareholders. At the end of the day profit would be more relevant metric to shareholders, so in that regards no Delta has not already won NYC.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:54 pm

winginit wrote:
dmorbust wrote:
winginit wrote:

But you were talking about revenue premiums and that's a stat about profit margin, which is of course different.


Granted, but profit margin just equals revenue minus costs. While we don't know the exact costs for each NYC operation, we do know United actually has a slightly higher CASM cost than Delta systemwide so for United to have such a significantly higher profit margin in NYC you must figure they have a revenue premium versus Delta there.


Must you? Because what would be in my mind just as obvious would be that UA would run significantly lower costs out of EWR when compared to DL in JFK/LGA on account of the cost of doing business in New Jersey versus New York proper in addition to their 64%+ total market share that allows them to spread those costs further than DL in JFK/LGA.

Point being, I think it's a stretch to argue and assume that UA has a revenue premium to DL in the New York market so long as that claim is simply derived from a broader profit margin metric.


If you look at the fares DL get out of JFK and what UA gets out of EWR on various routes, it's pretty clear UA gets revenue premium on most routes. I can give you a list of routes and their fare numbers. There is just so much less competition over at EWR.
 
winginit
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Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:28 pm

tphuang wrote:
winginit wrote:
dmorbust wrote:

Granted, but profit margin just equals revenue minus costs. While we don't know the exact costs for each NYC operation, we do know United actually has a slightly higher CASM cost than Delta systemwide so for United to have such a significantly higher profit margin in NYC you must figure they have a revenue premium versus Delta there.


Must you? Because what would be in my mind just as obvious would be that UA would run significantly lower costs out of EWR when compared to DL in JFK/LGA on account of the cost of doing business in New Jersey versus New York proper in addition to their 64%+ total market share that allows them to spread those costs further than DL in JFK/LGA.

Point being, I think it's a stretch to argue and assume that UA has a revenue premium to DL in the New York market so long as that claim is simply derived from a broader profit margin metric.


If you look at the fares DL get out of JFK and what UA gets out of EWR on various routes, it's pretty clear UA gets revenue premium on most routes. I can give you a list of routes and their fare numbers. There is just so much less competition over at EWR.


No need - the data is available via T100 for the most recent 3Q2017 period:

Average Fare (All Routes Domestic and International, Nondirectional Average, All Cabins):

DL (JFK): $254.94
DL (LGA): $163.27
DL (Combined JFK/LGA): $212.63
UA (EWR): $258.96

It seems a pretty clear cut case for United initially once LGA is thrown in and I'll concede I didn't expect that and may well stand corrected, but that data is obviously skewed by stage-length, density, etc. You can drill down to the route level as well obviously, which I'll argue is the most helpful metric:

DL (LAXJFK): $300.95
UA (LAXEWR): $261.05

DL (JFKSFO): $284.10
UA (EWRSFO): $282.86

DL (JFKLHR): $504.98
UA (EWRLHR): $464.36

Draw from it what you will. While UA may well get a revenue premium on some routes out of New York, they're lagging behind Delta to a notable degree on the most important routes.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:26 am

winginit wrote:
tphuang wrote:
winginit wrote:

Must you? Because what would be in my mind just as obvious would be that UA would run significantly lower costs out of EWR when compared to DL in JFK/LGA on account of the cost of doing business in New Jersey versus New York proper in addition to their 64%+ total market share that allows them to spread those costs further than DL in JFK/LGA.

Point being, I think it's a stretch to argue and assume that UA has a revenue premium to DL in the New York market so long as that claim is simply derived from a broader profit margin metric.


If you look at the fares DL get out of JFK and what UA gets out of EWR on various routes, it's pretty clear UA gets revenue premium on most routes. I can give you a list of routes and their fare numbers. There is just so much less competition over at EWR.


No need - the data is available via T100 for the most recent 3Q2017 period:

Average Fare (All Routes Domestic and International, Nondirectional Average, All Cabins):

DL (JFK): $254.94
DL (LGA): $163.27
DL (Combined JFK/LGA): $212.63
UA (EWR): $258.96

It seems a pretty clear cut case for United initially once LGA is thrown in and I'll concede I didn't expect that and may well stand corrected, but that data is obviously skewed by stage-length, density, etc. You can drill down to the route level as well obviously, which I'll argue is the most helpful metric:

DL (LAXJFK): $300.95
UA (LAXEWR): $261.05

DL (JFKSFO): $284.10
UA (EWRSFO): $282.86

DL (JFKLHR): $504.98
UA (EWRLHR): $464.36

Draw from it what you will. While UA may well get a revenue premium on some routes out of New York, they're lagging behind Delta to a notable degree on the most important routes.


Can you point me to where you got this? i have looked for several quarters of data and have never seen anything close to that low for UA out of EWR. SFO is always where over $400.
 
JDawgboy512
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:39 pm

Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:49 am

Jshank83 wrote:
masonh2479 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I am trying to piece some things together here. So if someone could clear things up that would be great.

I see people talking about an AUS announcement on feb 6. Is this a rumor or is there some kind of article on it? Do we know it is DL or could it be anything?
Also same question for IND and CVG. I see mentions of DL adding there, but again is it a rumor? Is DL mentioned specifically or could it be anything?

Just trying to separate rumors from what is actually documented. Thanks!

IIRC the specific words stated at the last chamber of commerce meeting was that a “Delta Announcement” would be revealed at their annual meeting February 6th.

A forum user on a different site reported such. The comment can be found here near the end of the page: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140690&page=187


If this was true wouldn't the newspapers have picked it up somewhere, since it was mentioned at a public meeting? I also noticed the person said he didn't have any links for it. Not saying it isn't true but you would think someone would have picked up the story. I could see it being true, just was hoping for something a little more concrete.



Not sure why the local news outlets would advertise an upcoming chamber of commerce meeting, they haven't done so in the past. If something substantial is revealed on February 6th then that's when there will be local press coverage. In any event, we will simply have to wait and see what ultimately happens.
 
N174UA
Posts: 890
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:17 pm

Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:09 am

Any expansion plans for DL/DL connection here in PSC? DL already flies from here to SEA, SLC, and MSP. The summer season sees an A320 on the SLC route. The Tri-Cities area is growing fast, and the largest demand is to the LA basin, to which no carrier operates from here on a daily basis. The most popular international destination is GDL, given the large Hispanic population in eastern Washington.

With SEA at near capacity and with upcoming construction there, would it make sense for DL to start summer seasonal service to LAX? Doing so would deter UA and AS from entering.
 
winginit
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:48 pm

tphuang wrote:
winginit wrote:
tphuang wrote:

If you look at the fares DL get out of JFK and what UA gets out of EWR on various routes, it's pretty clear UA gets revenue premium on most routes. I can give you a list of routes and their fare numbers. There is just so much less competition over at EWR.


No need - the data is available via T100 for the most recent 3Q2017 period:

Average Fare (All Routes Domestic and International, Nondirectional Average, All Cabins):

DL (JFK): $254.94
DL (LGA): $163.27
DL (Combined JFK/LGA): $212.63
UA (EWR): $258.96

It seems a pretty clear cut case for United initially once LGA is thrown in and I'll concede I didn't expect that and may well stand corrected, but that data is obviously skewed by stage-length, density, etc. You can drill down to the route level as well obviously, which I'll argue is the most helpful metric:

DL (LAXJFK): $300.95
UA (LAXEWR): $261.05

DL (JFKSFO): $284.10
UA (EWRSFO): $282.86

DL (JFKLHR): $504.98
UA (EWRLHR): $464.36

Draw from it what you will. While UA may well get a revenue premium on some routes out of New York, they're lagging behind Delta to a notable degree on the most important routes.


Can you point me to where you got this? i have looked for several quarters of data and have never seen anything close to that low for UA out of EWR. SFO is always where over $400.


Diio Mi. Analytical tool available via paid subscription to airline employees and industry consultants such as myself. They probably wouldn't be thrilled that I'm sharing outputs in a public forum but they can come after me. My output above is an aggregation of the T100 data reported to the government by all US carriers.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:35 am

winginit wrote:
tphuang wrote:
winginit wrote:

No need - the data is available via T100 for the most recent 3Q2017 period:

Average Fare (All Routes Domestic and International, Nondirectional Average, All Cabins):

DL (JFK): $254.94
DL (LGA): $163.27
DL (Combined JFK/LGA): $212.63
UA (EWR): $258.96

It seems a pretty clear cut case for United initially once LGA is thrown in and I'll concede I didn't expect that and may well stand corrected, but that data is obviously skewed by stage-length, density, etc. You can drill down to the route level as well obviously, which I'll argue is the most helpful metric:

DL (LAXJFK): $300.95
UA (LAXEWR): $261.05

DL (JFKSFO): $284.10
UA (EWRSFO): $282.86

DL (JFKLHR): $504.98
UA (EWRLHR): $464.36

Draw from it what you will. While UA may well get a revenue premium on some routes out of New York, they're lagging behind Delta to a notable degree on the most important routes.


Can you point me to where you got this? i have looked for several quarters of data and have never seen anything close to that low for UA out of EWR. SFO is always where over $400.


Diio Mi. Analytical tool available via paid subscription to airline employees and industry consultants such as myself. They probably wouldn't be thrilled that I'm sharing outputs in a public forum but they can come after me. My output above is an aggregation of the T100 data reported to the government by all US carriers.

I am just asking this because I take the 10% sample fare data and do my own aggregation filtering out award ticket and such. The results basically match the average quarterly fare posted on bts for largest carrier and lowest fare. For q3 on ewr sfo, I got just over $400 for ua and $352 for dl on JFK sfo. And that is pretty reflective of numbers I have seen on bts for several quarters.

But about the t100 db, I haven't seen any of the tables with actual fare numbers. Thanks for the heads up.
 
User avatar
SumChristianus
Topic Author
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:12 pm

How big can ATL really get for DL? At ~1000 daily flights in the summer it seems incredibly large for both the local market, and connections recorded in DOT DB1B.
Possibilities, however, for ATL on DL seem to be:
ATL-HHH 3x daily CR2 (Runway length? It was served in the past on turboprops.)
ATL-LYH 3x daily CR2
ATL-BOI Daily CS100
ATL-GEG Daily CS100
ATL-Brasila 4x Weekly B76W
ATL-KEF 4x Weekly B757
ATL-OGG Daily B76W
ATL-PGD 2x Daily 717
ATL-BER Seasonal Daily B76W
ATL-HRL 2x Weekly CR7

ATL-COS could probably move from 1x 320/73H to 2x CS100 (it was served 2x daily B738 in the past, even when CVG-COS and the CVG hub were still around.

I doubt ATL will get much more Asia service in a while from DL, MSP, DTW, SLC, BOS, and even AUS or PDX seem possibilites for ICN service.

DL at COS is interesting as they have greatly reduced their schedule from the following DL/NW services in the early 2000s:
COS-ATL 2x 73H
COS-MSP 2x 320
COS-SLC 5x CRJ
COS-CVG 2x CR7

Now they are down to:
COS-ATL 1x 320/73H
COS-SLC 2x CRJ (first SLC-COS departure is not until late afternoon)

Perhaps WN/F9 at DEN have shifted traffic there, hurting local COS demand? DL at one point carried 50 PDEW COS-SLC-Bay Area alone.
DL itself has grown at DEN somewhat, with SEA and LAX service, so perhaps they have shifted some of these passengers themselves?
MSP-COS 2x Daily on CR9s/CR7s seems a major network hole/future possibility.
A third daily SLC-COS with an earlier departure and possible resumption of the second daily ATL flight would seem good choices too, considering their past services.

SLC-ICT, SLC-ELP, SLC-BIS, and MSP-ELP also seem like major gaps. The central U.S. (KS, OK, CO, SD, etc., look pretty empty on the DL route map.

Thoughts?
UA DL LH NW AA --- Next DEN-IND (UA TBD)
"Born in Wonder, Brought to Wisdom"
 
grjplanes
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:52 am

Re: Delta Air Lines Network Thread 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:02 pm

From what I understand reading threads over the years it seems that DL's ATL-JNB route is performing reasonably well?
So while DL have struggled in the past with other Africa destinations, what is the main limiting factor preventing them for increasing JNB route then (from ATL or perhaps another DL hub)...the lack of enough available aircraft suitable for the route nonstop, only having the 10 777-200LR's?
Couple of years ago they did operate some extra flights over certain periods seasonally...ever since business and high-end tourism continued increasing and now with renewed optimism in South Africa and the region.

Perhaps the option of a triangular routing with CPT...dynamics in tourism and economics have changed drastically over the years since DL served
CPT many years ago. (Yes, there is the current drought issue, however this could be short-term)
Chances of a 3 or 4 weekly ATL-JNB-CPT-ATL route...say departing ATL 2 or 3 hours earlier than the current DL200, arriving in JNB between 1 and 2pm in the afternoon giving it still some options of connections onwards to some other regional and domestic destinations which the current DL200 doesn't really offer, arriving too late for most.
Something roughly like this:
15:45 ATL-JNB 14:00
15:15 JNB-CPT 17:30
19:00 CPT-ATL 05:00

Does DL do any triangular type longhaul routes?
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