I'm interested in getting an understanding of the following:

1) Airlines and fleet types flying under Delta Connection
2) The air service agreements, including fee per departure, vs at-risk flying

I know the major players and fleet types in play but it seems like its a on-going game of musical chairs for who is operating what types, who is shedding CR2s, who is picking-up CR2s, and who has future aircraft pending delivery.

Also curious to know short and medium term plans under such agreements.

I know a lot of this is buried in various financial statements and press releases, but a lot of mundane stuff never really hits the press.

Here is what I know of.

Compass (CZ) - E175
Endeavor (9E) - CRJ2, CRJ7 and CRJ9
ExpressJet (EV) - CRJ7 and CRJ9 (Ending this year.)
GoJet (G7) - CRJ7 and CRJ9
Republic (YX) - E170 and E175
SkyWest (OO) - CRJ2, CRJ7, CRJ9, E175 and E175SC. Some of the CRJ2's are under the PreRate/At-Risk contract, rest of aircraft are Fee for Departure

The last I heard a few of EV's CRJ7's and all EV CRJ9's are transferring to 9E. All the E175SC's are on order, haven't been delivered yet are just a 70 seat configuration of the E175 (76 seats).

Besides EV the rest are under contracts for several more years, I know OO has some aircraft going off contract soon but I suspect more will go At-Risk or be renewed . The At-Risk flying by OO is allowed to be cancelled with 30 days notice, highly unlikely because I know most of the routes are profitable for both OO and DL.

Since the EV news is recent I suspect we won't see much major change in DCI carriers for at least 6 months to a year.

durangomac wrote:

Here is what I know of.

Compass (CZ) - E175
Endeavor (9E) - CRJ2, CRJ7 and CRJ9
ExpressJet (EV) - CRJ7 and CRJ9 (Ending this year.)
GoJet (G7) - CRJ7 and CRJ9
Republic (YX) - E170 and E175
SkyWest (OO) - CRJ2, CRJ7, CRJ9, E175 and E175SC. Some of the CRJ2's are under the PreRate/At-Risk contract, rest of aircraft are Fee for Departure

The last I heard a few of EV's CRJ7's and all EV CRJ9's are transferring to 9E. All the E175SC's are on order, haven't been delivered yet are just a 70 seat configuration of the E175 (76 seats).

Besides EV the rest are under contracts for several more years, I know OO has some aircraft going off contract soon but I suspect more will go At-Risk or be renewed . The At-Risk flying by OO is allowed to be cancelled with 30 days notice, highly unlikely because I know most of the routes are profitable for both OO and DL.

Since the EV news is recent I suspect we won't see much major change in DCI carriers for at least 6 months to a year.

I think OO is going to get themselves in a staffing situation that's going to force them to cancel some of the at risk flying. They're already taking delays constantly with the staffing they have, pilot wise. They're pushing their midwest based pilots harder than ever before, and they have to manage to take delivery of another 30 Delta 175SC's as well as the 10+ Alaska 175's. That's 40+ airplanes of growth, which will be darn near impossible to staff, given how low their pay is when compared to most other regional.

The rumors I've heard lead me to believe that DCI will be a 3 carrier operation eventually. 2 CRJ carriers and 2 ERJ carriers (OO being the overlap, leaving 9E and YX to round it out).

DiamondFlyer wrote:

durangomac wrote:

Here is what I know of.

Compass (CZ) - E175
Endeavor (9E) - CRJ2, CRJ7 and CRJ9
ExpressJet (EV) - CRJ7 and CRJ9 (Ending this year.)
GoJet (G7) - CRJ7 and CRJ9
Republic (YX) - E170 and E175
SkyWest (OO) - CRJ2, CRJ7, CRJ9, E175 and E175SC. Some of the CRJ2's are under the PreRate/At-Risk contract, rest of aircraft are Fee for Departure

The last I heard a few of EV's CRJ7's and all EV CRJ9's are transferring to 9E. All the E175SC's are on order, haven't been delivered yet are just a 70 seat configuration of the E175 (76 seats).

Besides EV the rest are under contracts for several more years, I know OO has some aircraft going off contract soon but I suspect more will go At-Risk or be renewed . The At-Risk flying by OO is allowed to be cancelled with 30 days notice, highly unlikely because I know most of the routes are profitable for both OO and DL.

Since the EV news is recent I suspect we won't see much major change in DCI carriers for at least 6 months to a year.

I think OO is going to get themselves in a staffing situation that's going to force them to cancel some of the at risk flying. They're already taking delays constantly with the staffing they have, pilot wise. They're pushing their midwest based pilots harder than ever before, and they have to manage to take delivery of another 30 Delta 175SC's as well as the 10+ Alaska 175's. That's 40+ airplanes of growth, which will be darn near impossible to staff, given how low their pay is when compared to most other regional.

The rumors I've heard lead me to believe that DCI will be a 3 carrier operation eventually. 2 CRJ carriers and 2 ERJ carriers (OO being the overlap, leaving 9E and YX to round it out).

There are has always been rumors of G7 and CZ's removal from DCI because of performance. I haven't heard as much since I've moved up to the PNW but I suspect that is along those same rumors. Would it hurt DCI to have the two leave, I don't think so but it might be hard to staff those flights from the other three carriers unless they figured out a way get the crews moved over.

Other than 9E's pay rates OO is right in the mix for pay rates for regionals when I was looking at rates recently. From talking with friends I think OO's issues are mostly due to staffing the east coast bases. Out west there seems to be less of an issue. They admit that pilots are tight but they are keeping up currently with hiring/training. 40 planes is a lot to take on but it's over the next 2 years and in the mean time they are also retiring some CRJ2's and CRJ7's, not one for one but it should help also.

It is easy for DL to revoke Compass and GoJet since DL owns all of their aircraft. I can vouch that Compass continues to befuddle Virginia Ave.

Where did 9E's CR7s come from?

What is the deal with OO CR2 at-risk flying? I know a lot of it it EAS but some is purely at-risk with no EAS subsidy?

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Where did 9E's CR7s come from?

What is the deal with OO CR2 at-risk flying? I know a lot of it it EAS but some is purely at-risk with no EAS subsidy?

The CRJ7's are coming from EV.

OO At-Risk flight is flying OO has been doing for years. Prior to like 2015 they were all EMB-120's. OO has been doing EAS, subsidized/guaranteed markets from local, state and federal grants and in some cases markets DL just didn't want to be in but OO saw a chance to make some money. SLC-GJT and SLC-TWF are examples of that. Of course SLC-SGU since is not a market that DL really cared much about because it lost money for many years being so close to LAS. I hear SLC-SGU is doing much better now that it switched to CRJ2's.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Where did 9E's CR7s come from?

What is the deal with OO CR2 at-risk flying? I know a lot of it it EAS but some is purely at-risk with no EAS subsidy?

The 9E CR7's (when they arrive late spring/early summer) are former Comair birds, part of the CR7's that are owned by Delta. The other 30 EV CR7's are owned by INC.

Really great thread, with a lot of good info.
Wish we had more like this.
Thanks to all.

Summary of Skywest Inc. (OO & EV) Air Service Agreements:
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... 30x10q.htm
Page 10

An investor day slide from a year or two ago mentioned by the end of 2019, there would be fewer than 100 50 seaters in the DCI fleet. With the CSeries, some may stick around a little longer. I look at the CSeries order as being a combo MD-88/50s seater replacement rather than an exclusive MD-88 replacement. If oil creeps back up to $80 a barrel, the economics of the 50 seaters will continue to diminish. While its possible Delta could phase out the 50 seater entirely (of of the US3, Delta is far and away in the best position to retire and replace 50 seaters), I still think longer term, a fleet of 50 of them will remain for the smallest airports that otherwise could not support a larger aircraft, even a CR7.

The "draw-down" of 50-seaters is an often touted message by leadership at DL but appears to be a bit unclear at times.
Yes, they have significantly reduced their fleet of 50-seat RJs from the high-water mark of over 300+ aircraft in 2011 down to somewhere around 100 today.
The markets to be served by C-Series aren't 50 seat RJ markets, but its replacement capacity and everything (in theory) shifts downward.

The number of 50-seat RJs in the fleet gets confounded in some cases since some messages refer to the number of aircraft, other times it means lines of flying, or equivalant number of aircraft which is a bit neboulous.

CRJ-200 flying today includes:
OO fixed fee: 63
EV fixed fee: 2
9E fixed fee: ??
OO at-risk/revenue share: 24

Its unclear if the number includes the CRJ-200 flying that is at-risk, some of which includes EAS flying.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

CRJ-200 flying today includes:
OO fixed fee: 63
EV fixed fee: 2
9E fixed fee: ??
OO at-risk/revenue share: 24

Its unclear if the number includes the CRJ-200 flying that is at-risk, some of which includes EAS flying.

According to Airfleets 9E has 57 CRJ-200's. EV has no CRJ-200 in active service.

personally would love to see the 50 seaters go, or be retained for smaller markets only. It would be nice to see them gone on routes like OMA-MSP, CID-DTW/MSP, MSN-DTW/MSP etc.

Does anyone know why DL is ending their relationship with EV? ASA was one of the original connection carriers. They used to be huge in ATL and fairly large in DFW.

CIDFlyer wrote:

personally would love to see the 50 seaters go, or be retained for smaller markets only. It would be nice to see them gone on routes like OMA-MSP, CID-DTW/MSP, MSN-DTW/MSP etc.

Agreed - I flew on a CRJ-200 from ORF-DTW on Sunday. This isn't a smaller market and the plane was packed to the gills. It's over 500 miles and 2+ hours scheduled time. It was miserable. I thought DL had committed to removing 50 seaters or these type of flights? Or is the cutoff 750 miles?

CP posts some of the best numbers among all of Delta, even sometimes beating mainline, so I don't think they're going anywhere. And Delta loves their pilots (grabbing more than 10 a month consistently). For a pilot group of 700 that's impressive. Now that they are fully out west they are being deployed between Delta's LAX, SEA and SLC hubs as SkyWest is moved into the middle of the country. Every DC carrier is going to have a hard time with staffing this summer (and many summers to come).

akelley728 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

personally would love to see the 50 seaters go, or be retained for smaller markets only. It would be nice to see them gone on routes like OMA-MSP, CID-DTW/MSP, MSN-DTW/MSP etc.

Agreed - I flew on a CRJ-200 from ORF-DTW on Sunday. This isn't a smaller market and the plane was packed to the gills. It's over 500 miles and 2+ hours scheduled time. It was miserable. I thought DL had committed to removing 50 seaters or these type of flights? Or is the cutoff 750 miles?

Delta is one of the better airlines when it comes to not abusing the CRJ/ERJ. I thought the cut-off was 600 miles, but I'm sure someone who really knows can say for sure. I've always felt that the mission of these birds should be small markets and thin point to point markets of 500 miles or less. I also think they should not be frequency fillers on larger city pairs, especially when one end is at a congested airport. Unfortunately, small RJs have been stretched into much longer routes, which they are very capable of, but passenger comfort beyond an hour is an afterthought. While all majors are guilty of abusing passenger comfort with these lawn darts, DL has gotten better faster than the others. UA is still willing to lock you in for 3 to 4 hours. AA has a few long ones too, but seems to have recently read the RJ passenger comfort memo. I've done MHT-MSP, PHX-EUG, and PIT-IAH on the CRJ. I don't recommend it unless there are no other options. I further recommend that if you ever have a long flight on a CRJ, skip the window seat if you want a place to put both legs. I'm someone who loves window seats, but the curvature of this aircraft is too much to stay comfortable for long periods.

I'd be curious if there are still any scheduled 1-stop options to fly coast to coast on a 50-seater on any airline (connections to another 50-seater OK). If there is, I doubt it is on DL.

CP posts some of the best numbers among all of Delta, even sometimes beating mainline, so I don't think they're going anywhere. And Delta loves their pilots (grabbing more than 10 a month consistently). For a pilot group of 700 that's impressive. Now that they are fully out west they are being deployed between Delta's LAX, SEA and SLC hubs as SkyWest is moved into the middle of the country. Every DC carrier is going to have a hard time with staffing this summer (and many summers to come).

SkyWest is not in any immediate staffing problems. And there very proactive about training ect. Example they are running 3x the normal check airman classes right now.. hiring is out pacing attrition as of now.. lets check back in 6 months and see if they match pay, but they still have domiciles of choice on there side..

LotsaRunway wrote:

Delta is one of the better airlines when it comes to not abusing the CRJ/ERJ. I thought the cut-off was 600 miles, but I'm sure someone who really knows can say for sure. I've always felt that the mission of these birds should be small markets and thin point to point markets of 500 miles or less. I also think they should not be frequency fillers on larger city pairs, especially when one end is at a congested airport. Unfortunately, small RJs have been stretched into much longer routes, which they are very capable of, but passenger comfort beyond an hour is an afterthought.

While all majors are guilty of abusing passenger comfort with these lawn darts, DL has gotten better faster than the others. UA is still willing to lock you in for 3 to 4 hours. AA has a few long ones too, but seems to have recently read the RJ passenger comfort memo.

I agree with you on every point. Delta is the best of the majors when it comes to how the 50 seaters are deployed. My DL CRJ flight was the longest in recent memory, most are quite shorter. My longest 50 (or less) seater flight was indeed on UA a few years ago. I can’t remember the exact route, but it was on an ERJ-135 out of EWR. There was weather delays and we were stuck in the tarmac for almost two hours before taking off. Then the almost three hour flight. Five hours in one of those flying pencils was worse than some medieval torture devices I’m sure!

akelley728 wrote:

an ERJ-135 out of EWR. There was weather delays and we were stuck in the tarmac for almost two hours before taking off. Then the almost three hour flight. Five hours in one of those flying pencils was worse than some medieval torture devices I’m sure!

You might feel that way, but take care not to represent that as if it were some manner of fact... because it isn't.

If I had to be in Y, then I'd rather be on single-seat side of an ERJ, a thousand times over ANY other aircraft in the sky.

akelley728 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

personally would love to see the 50 seaters go, or be retained for smaller markets only. It would be nice to see them gone on routes like OMA-MSP, CID-DTW/MSP, MSN-DTW/MSP etc.

Agreed - I flew on a CRJ-200 from ORF-DTW on Sunday. This isn't a smaller market and the plane was packed to the gills. It's over 500 miles and 2+ hours scheduled time. It was miserable. I thought DL had committed to removing 50 seaters or these type of flights? Or is the cutoff 750 miles?

Delta's public commitment to 2-class aircraft (a press release 12/2010) stated 50-seaters would be limited to routes of less than 750 miles domestically.

http://ir.delta.com/news-and-events/new ... fault.aspx

If you think CR2s are still on too many routes, look at DL's 50-seater count vs. that of AA or UA. The annual reports will be out in a month or so and state the regional carriers and fleet composition.

Many of the routes flown a few years ago - DL cited a peak of 500+ CR2/E145 aircraft in 2009 - do not reflect where they are used today.

durangomac wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

CRJ-200 flying today includes:
OO fixed fee: 63
EV fixed fee: 2
9E fixed fee: ??
OO at-risk/revenue share: 24

Its unclear if the number includes the CRJ-200 flying that is at-risk, some of which includes EAS flying.

According to Airfleets 9E has 57 CRJ-200's. EV has no CRJ-200 in active service.

Correct, EV has no CR2's left, 5 went to 9E, and a whole bunch went to OO. 9E is actually down to somewhere around 50 CR2's, as quite a few have been flown to IGM in the last couple months, IIRC, the actual plan is around ~44 CR2's at 9E.

DiamondFlyer wrote:

Correct, EV has no CR2's left, 5 went to 9E, and a whole bunch went to OO. 9E is actually down to somewhere around 50 CR2's, as quite a few have been flown to IGM in the last couple months, IIRC, the actual plan is around ~44 CR2's at 9E.

As of today 9E has 46 CR2s in service. By the end of July 9E will have 42 CR2s in service, with that number to remain stable for the time being. Most flying will be out of ATL & DTW, with some out of NYC, RDU, & CVG and a handful out of MSP.

Also, by the end of June 9E will have received all DL-owned CR7s & CR9s from EV, for a total of 112 (109 CR9s and 3 CR7s). The first CR7 is to be received in February.

Rumor is the 22 DL-owned CR7s at G7 are next to come to 9E. An announcement to that effect is expected around June.

Other, more fanciful rumors have been bandied about regarding DCI fleet shuffling, but nothing with enough credence to mention here.

It’s worth nothing that DL owns 20% of YX and 100% of EV. So those two will stay around for a while. OO is one of the most stable legacies, so that’s probably Safe. Anything else could change. The situation with CP is interesting, because it’s a former NW owned, with a since exhausted flow through agreement, as well as a still-in-force flowback deal. I wonder if that goes away if DL no longer uses them.

jrkmsp wrote:

It’s worth nothing that DL owns 20% of YX and 100% of EV. So those two will stay around for a while. OO is one of the most stable legacies, so that’s probably Safe. Anything else could change. The situation with CP is interesting, because it’s a former NW owned, with a since exhausted flow through agreement, as well as a still-in-force flowback deal. I wonder if that goes away if DL no longer uses them.

Delta does not own EV, they own 9E. EV is the bastard child of OO right now

jrkmsp wrote:

It’s worth nothing that DL owns 20% of YX and 100% of EV. So those two will stay around for a while. OO is one of the most stable legacies, so that’s probably Safe. Anything else could change. The situation with CP is interesting, because it’s a former NW owned, with a since exhausted flow through agreement, as well as a still-in-force flowback deal. I wonder if that goes away if DL no longer uses them.

DL sold EV to OO in 2005.

DiamondFlyer wrote:

jrkmsp wrote:

It’s worth nothing that DL owns 20% of YX and 100% of EV. So those two will stay around for a while. OO is one of the most stable legacies, so that’s probably Safe. Anything else could change. The situation with CP is interesting, because it’s a former NW owned, with a since exhausted flow through agreement, as well as a still-in-force flowback deal. I wonder if that goes away if DL no longer uses them.

Delta does not own EV, they own 9E. EV is the bastard child of OO right now

Why is EV the bastard child? I was surprised that DL was dropping EV after all these years.

thegoldenargosy wrote:

DiamondFlyer wrote:

jrkmsp wrote:

It’s worth nothing that DL owns 20% of YX and 100% of EV. So those two will stay around for a while. OO is one of the most stable legacies, so that’s probably Safe. Anything else could change. The situation with CP is interesting, because it’s a former NW owned, with a since exhausted flow through agreement, as well as a still-in-force flowback deal. I wonder if that goes away if DL no longer uses them.

Delta does not own EV, they own 9E. EV is the bastard child of OO right now

Why is EV the bastard child? I was surprised that DL was dropping EV after all these years.

The bastard child of OO, not Delta. Because they're union, and Skywest is not. That's basically the entire reason that EV is out of the Delta game by the end of 2018, Skywest decided they didn't want a union carrier around any more. I would have guessed that GoJet, Republic and Compass would have gone long before ExpressJet, but when the anti-labor idiots at Skywest got their way, that's what happens. Chip goes to congress and complains about the ATP law and how it's bad for business, yet he's going to let thousands of ASA pilot walk out the door.

DiamondFlyer wrote:

thegoldenargosy wrote:

DiamondFlyer wrote:

Delta does not own EV, they own 9E. EV is the bastard child of OO right now

Why is EV the bastard child? I was surprised that DL was dropping EV after all these years.

The bastard child of OO, not Delta. Because they're union, and Skywest is not. That's basically the entire reason that EV is out of the Delta game by the end of 2018, Skywest decided they didn't want a union carrier around any more. I would have guessed that GoJet, Republic and Compass would have gone long before ExpressJet, but when the anti-labor idiots at Skywest got their way, that's what happens. Chip goes to congress and complains about the ATP law and how it's bad for business, yet he's going to let thousands of ASA pilot walk out the door.

Good riddance. Every time I thought they couldn’t do anything further to earn the America’s S****iest Airline moniker, they surprised me. I doubt any frequent flyer in the southeast is sorry to see them go.

ASA was at one time one of the if not the largest regional when they were independent flying untold numbers of EMB120s out of ATL in the 80s/90s.

MIflyer12 wrote:

akelley728 wrote:

CIDFlyer wrote:

personally would love to see the 50 seaters go, or be retained for smaller markets only. It would be nice to see them gone on routes like OMA-MSP, CID-DTW/MSP, MSN-DTW/MSP etc.

Agreed - I flew on a CRJ-200 from ORF-DTW on Sunday. This isn't a smaller market and the plane was packed to the gills. It's over 500 miles and 2+ hours scheduled time. It was miserable. I thought DL had committed to removing 50 seaters or these type of flights? Or is the cutoff 750 miles?

Delta's public commitment to 2-class aircraft (a press release 12/2010) stated 50-seaters would be limited to routes of less than 750 miles domestically.

http://ir.delta.com/news-and-events/new ... fault.aspx

If you think CR2s are still on too many routes, look at DL's 50-seater count vs. that of AA or UA. The annual reports will be out in a month or so and state the regional carriers and fleet composition.

Many of the routes flown a few years ago - DL cited a peak of 500+ CR2/E145 aircraft in 2009 - do not reflect where they are used today.

oh I realize its much better today than It was years ago. I remember taking a CR2 from CID-ATL whereas now I can take a 717 which is nice. Still I think some smaller markets, like my hometown of CID for example, could at least see one of those frequencies on MSP and DTW be bumped up, especially DTW since its a longer flight. The morning departure could at least be on a CR7 or CR9. I think they just started MSP with a CR7 on the morning flight out so thats nice. UA now has A320 Service on CID-ORD, I would hope to see at least DTW be upgraded to be competitive.

william wrote:

ASA was at one time one of the if not the largest regional when they were independent flying untold numbers of EMB120s out of ATL in the 80s/90s.

ASA became a Delta Connection carrier in 1984. The first Brasilia arrived in 1985.

DiamondFlyer wrote:

jrkmsp wrote:

It’s worth nothing that DL owns 20% of YX and 100% of EV. So those two will stay around for a while. OO is one of the most stable legacies, so that’s probably Safe. Anything else could change. The situation with CP is interesting, because it’s a former NW owned, with a since exhausted flow through agreement, as well as a still-in-force flowback deal. I wonder if that goes away if DL no longer uses them.

Delta does not own EV, they own 9E. EV is the bastard child of OO right now

Ugh, of course. Brain fart with airline codes!

DiamondFlyer wrote:

Because they're union, and Skywest is not. That's basically the entire reason that EV is out of the Delta game by the end of 2018, Skywest decided they didn't want a union carrier around any more.

If that were true, SkyWest, Inc. would be shutting EV down entirely, which they're not. The EV United Express operation is remaining steady, while their American Eagle flying is actually increasing. DL has stated publicly that the drawdown of EV flying is due to their poor performance (it's no secret that EV was one of DL's worst-performing regionals, which may or may not be SkyWest's fault), and not some anti-labor crusade.

I think ICT-DTW would be a good RJ add with it's short stage length and connections that could be fed to the Northeast like BDL, PVD/MHT/BOS, JFK/LGA/EWR on top of O&D.

KGRB wrote:

DiamondFlyer wrote:

Because they're union, and Skywest is not. That's basically the entire reason that EV is out of the Delta game by the end of 2018, Skywest decided they didn't want a union carrier around any more.

If that were true, SkyWest, Inc. would be shutting EV down entirely, which they're not. The EV United Express operation is remaining steady, while their American Eagle flying is actually increasing. DL has stated publicly that the drawdown of EV flying is due to their poor performance (it's no secret that EV was one of DL's worst-performing regionals, which may or may not be SkyWest's fault), and not some anti-labor crusade.

OO has stated over and over again that the EV 145 side only makes sense with 100+ airframes, which with the attrition at EV, they’ll never fly again. I’d be amazed to see that AA CR7 contract make it out of 2019, before those are all OO operated planes.

The only chance EV has of surviving long term, is UA swooping in and doing what DL is doing with 9E and AA with their 3 carriers.

You think EV is bad now, wait until the last 6 months of the Delta operation, things will be terrible

Industry chatter is the UA deal to buy ExpressJet will get done. UA needs their lift and can't risk any ambiguity about it future - and being under the UAL umbrella will help the pilot recruitment issue that so many regionals face.