O&D versus pax how are numbers calculated.

mjoelnir · Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:14 am

Regarding O&D versus transit passengers.

- Are transit passengers counted twice, arrival and departure flight or only once?
- I assume that going on on a code share is counted as transit
- but what about same alliance, but not code share
- Interlining
- Self connect
- Arriving in the evening, sleeping in a hotel, flying on in the morning O&D or transit?
- Short stopover, three days for example O&D or transit?
- Who reports, who collects the data?

Thank you for your information in advance

Mjoelnir

LAX772LR · Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:27 am

To your first question, the answer is yes.

To your second through fourth, I don't understand why one would think that codeshare/interline affects any of this one way or the other. Explain?

Would be interesting to know how stopovers, self-cnnx, and multi-ticket pax are handled; and if there's any standard processes for it.

PerfectGriffin · Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:30 am

This is based on what I know:

1. Transit passengers are counted twice.
2. Yes, counted as transit
3. Not sure
4. Yes, counted as transit
5. Not sure
6. O&D. It is my understanding that leaving the airport (or collecting your baggage) counts as O&D.
7. O&D
8. The local airport authority

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you're a transit or O&D passenger because you end up being counted in the same way which is for the number of flights you have taken to/from that airport.

PerfectGriffin · Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:35 am

PerfectGriffin wrote:
This is based on what I know:

1. Transit passengers are counted twice.
2. Yes, counted as transit
3. Not sure
4. Yes, counted as transit
5. Not sure
6. O&D. It is my understanding that leaving the airport (or collecting your baggage) counts as O&D.
7. O&D
8. The local airport authority

At the end of the day, being a transit or O&D passenger doesn't affect the total passenger traffic numbers because you end up being counted in the same way - for the number of flights you have taken to/from that airport.

FSDan · Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:26 pm

And airlines are responsible for reporting their own numbers to the airport authorities, correct? Or how does that work?

mjoelnir · Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:57 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
To your first question, the answer is yes.

To your second through fourth, I don't understand why one would think that codeshare/interline affects any of this one way or the other. Explain?

Would be interesting to know how stopovers, self-cnnx, and multi-ticket pax are handled; and if there's any standard processes for it.

It depends on how you count and who is counting and how you collect the information.
If you collect the information at the airline. Airline A tells you about a person flown to the airport and airline B tells you about a person flying from the airport.
How do you decide O&D or transit passenger. Code share, alliance and interlining have airline A and B connected, but in different ways. Self connect means that airline A does not know that you fly on on airline B. You need to go out through immigration, collect your luggage and check in again.
Keeping all the data on the airport level, you have to know if passenger ABC arriving is the same passenger as ABC departing a few hours later, could raise privacy questions.
Coming in on a evening flight, sleeping in a hotel and going on on the morning flight is in reality transit, but I assume counted as O&D. The same problem could arise if your time between the flights is rather long and you go out of the airport to catch fresh air or look at the town.

I am asking this questions because there is a lot of comparison on O&D traffic with transit traffic here on a.net between airports. It should be aloud a question how this data is compiled and how reliable that is.
Coming in on a evening flight, sleeping in a hotel and going on on the morning flight is in reality transit, but I assume counted as O&D.

Cubsrule · Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:10 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
How do you decide O&D or transit passenger. Code share, alliance and interlining have airline A and B connected, but in different ways. Self connect means that airline A does not know that you fly on on airline B. You need to go out through immigration, collect your luggage and check in again.
Keeping all the data on the airport level, you have to know if passenger ABC arriving is the same passenger as ABC departing a few hours later, could raise privacy questions.
Coming in on a evening flight, sleeping in a hotel and going on on the morning flight is in reality transit, but I assume counted as O&D. The same problem could arise if your time between the flights is rather long and you go out of the airport to catch fresh air or look at the town.

I am asking this questions because there is a lot of comparison on O&D traffic with transit traffic here on a.net between airports. It should be aloud a question how this data is compiled and how reliable that is.
Coming in on a evening flight, sleeping in a hotel and going on on the morning flight is in reality transit, but I assume counted as O&D.

Many of these questions are missing the more germane distinction: one ticket versus two. If I fly JFK-CDG on AF and then CDG-SVO on a separate ticket, I will likely be counted as O&D even if it's not a long stop and I fly both segments on AF. If I fly JFK-CDG-SVO all on one ticket, I will likely be counted as transit regardless of whether I do it all on AF, do JFK-CDG on DL and CDG-SVO on Skyteam partner SU, or do JFK-CDG on AA and CDG-SVO on SU.

Jshank83 · Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:11 pm

I would assume it is all done by your booked ticket. Each time you hit book and pay that is your itinerary and that is what is counted.

So if you book LAX-ORD-JFK then your O&D counts for LAX-JFK
If you book LAX-ORD on one ticket. Then self connect and book another ticket for ORD-JFK then it will be counted as O&D for LAX-ORD and ORD-JFK.

Which airlines for which legs don't matter if it is on the same booked ticket. So is codeshare (for example) AS LAX-ORD and AA ORD-JFK if booked on the same ticket will still count as LAX-JFK.

If you are a transit (connecting passenger) and you will still be counted for arriving and departing, since you still did both. Same ticket or self connect.

Kilgen · Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:27 pm

For transit it depends. If your incoming flight has a different number than your outgoing flight, ICAO says that you count it as 2 different passengers (you can think as, you have 2 different boarding passes). If your incoming and outgoing flights have the same flight number, you are a direct transit passenger, thus only counted once (you can think as, you have only 1 boarding pass).

mjoelnir · Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:38 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
How do you decide O&D or transit passenger. Code share, alliance and interlining have airline A and B connected, but in different ways. Self connect means that airline A does not know that you fly on on airline B. You need to go out through immigration, collect your luggage and check in again.
Keeping all the data on the airport level, you have to know if passenger ABC arriving is the same passenger as ABC departing a few hours later, could raise privacy questions.
Coming in on a evening flight, sleeping in a hotel and going on on the morning flight is in reality transit, but I assume counted as O&D. The same problem could arise if your time between the flights is rather long and you go out of the airport to catch fresh air or look at the town.

I am asking this questions because there is a lot of comparison on O&D traffic with transit traffic here on a.net between airports. It should be aloud a question how this data is compiled and how reliable that is.
Coming in on a evening flight, sleeping in a hotel and going on on the morning flight is in reality transit, but I assume counted as O&D.

Many of these questions are missing the more germane distinction: one ticket versus two. If I fly JFK-CDG on AF and then CDG-SVO on a separate ticket, I will likely be counted as O&D even if it's not a long stop and I fly both segments on AF. If I fly JFK-CDG-SVO all on one ticket, I will likely be counted as transit regardless of whether I do it all on AF, do JFK-CDG on DL and CDG-SVO on Skyteam partner SU, or do JFK-CDG on AA and CDG-SVO on SU.

The logical difference between an O&D or transit passenger is of course, does the journey end here or does the passenger continues on his/her journey. If you take the distinction of one or two or more different tickets, than you will count a lot of transit passengers as O&D:

Jshank83 · Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:44 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The logical difference between an O&D or transit passenger is of course, does the journey end here or does the passenger continues on his/her journey. If you take the distinction of one or two or more different tickets, than you will count a lot of transit passengers as O&D:

I don't think the separate tickets happens enough that the airlines worry that much about it. I think we are giving them too much credit to think they would track that (or even have a way to track it).

I does happen though. Especially from smaller USA airports to Europe. Sometimes it is a lot cheaper for me to book a ticket to New York or Chicago then book a separate ticket to Europe from those locations then to book one the entire way. If I am booking WN from my home airport to New York then UA from New York to London there is now way for them to know I did that. The airlines aren't sharing that info so as far as WN knows I was in New York for a week and as far as UA knows I just flew in and out of New York.

tmoney · Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:57 pm

Let me try and explain how we count O&D/transit pax here in RGN.

The distinction between the two is "Does the pax leave the airport?" And we draw that line - quite literally - at security exit points, where we have digital counters. (Once you cross the exit point you have to go through security again, very similar to the US.)

So when a flight arrives there are people who'll remain in the sterile air-side areas and those who'll elect to leave the airport. Regardless if you are connecting in 2 hours (transiting technically) or RGN is actually your end destination, the moment you cross the exit point, you are counted as O&D.

So within a 24 hrs time frame we see how many people deplaned, how many crossed the exit point, how many went through security, and how many enplaned. From that point the math is simple: "O" you count how many went through security. "D" how many crossed the exit points. Transit: (Deplaning pax - D) + (Enplaning pax - O).

Hope this helps.

Jetty · Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:28 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Regarding O&D versus transit passengers.

- Are transit passengers counted twice, arrival and departure flight or only once?

There are 3 categories. O&D, transit and transfer. A transit passenger continues on the same plane, while a transfer passenger continues on another plane. As already mentioned the former is counted once and the latter twice.

airbazar · Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:35 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The logical difference between an O&D or transit passenger is of course, does the journey end here or does the passenger continues on his/her journey. If you take the distinction of one or two or more different tickets, than you will count a lot of transit passengers as O&D:

I don't think the separate tickets happens enough that the airlines worry that much about it. I think we are giving them too much credit to think they would track that (or even have a way to track it).

I does happen though. Especially from smaller USA airports to Europe. Sometimes it is a lot cheaper for me to book a ticket to New York or Chicago then book a separate ticket to Europe from those locations then to book one the entire way.

2 out of the last 3 times I've gone to Europe I've done exactly that. It's significantly cheaper to just find the cheaper fare across the pond, typically to LHR or AMS. Then buy a seperate ticket on a LCC to where you want to go.
On the topic of transit vs. O&D, i'm pretty sure there is a timing factor as well. You have to stay in the country/city X amount of hours in order to be considered O&D.

tmoney wrote:
Let me try and explain how we count O&D/transit pax here in RGN.
The distinction between the two is "Does the pax leave the airport?" And we draw that line - quite literally - at security exit points, where we have digital counters. (Once you cross the exit point you have to go through security again, very similar to the US.)

That seems very odd. It would never work at airports with international arrivals or where changing terminals is required for a connection.

RushmoreAir · Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:11 pm

In the U.S., one of the most comprehensive and semi-reliable ways to track O&D traffic is the DB1B coupon survey distributed by the US DOT. Airlines are required to submit a 10% sample of every ticket that has at least one segment on a U.S. carrier. Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is decided "randomly" by pulling every ticket number ending in 0.

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/DatabaseI ... ?DB_ID=125

This data is then aggregated by the DOT and released on a quarterly basis, allowing you to estimate traffic and fares based on a 10% sample for every individual O&D market that shows up in the database. Since the DOT collects the entire ticket, you also have routing and carrier information as well (so you can identify share of LAX-JFK O&D pax that go LAX-ORD-JFK). This allows you to look at O&D vs transit for a specific market, or for a specific airport if you sum up all traffic making a connection at that airport and compare to O&D traffic. As far as airport overnights etc., there is a connection cutoff of n hours (I think it's 6?) where every connection over that duration will be counted as a stopover and thus two separate O&Ds rather than a transit pax. This isn't perfect, but for domestic data where people rarely take stops that long it usually ends up getting lost in the noise.

The raw DB1B data is messy, so most airlines, consultants, and large airports pay for a service like Diio to clean it up and make it easy to use. If you're interested in exploring it, the DOT publishes a limited 'clean' version in the Consumer Airfare Report - Table 6:

http://www.transportation.gov/policy/av ... are-report

Note that the consumer airfare report only shows O&Ds above 10 bidirectional passengers each way each day, reports traffic in bidirectional form, and combines airports up to metro areas (e.g. PVD/MHT/BOS are all part of greater BOS).

For O&D markets outside the U.S., getting this data becomes more of a challenge as nothing comprehensive like the DOT DB1B exists. However, there are multiple places (e.g. ARC, IATA, Amadeus) that have "data solutions" they'll sell to airlines/airports. These solutions approximate O&D traffic by using limited ticket stubs, travel agency data, and some fancy math, but in my experience I've found none of these are quite as accurate or smooth as the publicly available DB1B. They're still useful though in markets where no better data sources exist.

As far as self-connections go, often airlines have additional data on credit card point of sale, or other internal flags that can help decide whether a passenger is truly originating at their ticket origination point or not. When planning new routes or looking at adding/reducing capacity, one would probably build a business case using estimates from many different sources in order to triangulate a better picture of reality.

Edited to add that as long as it stays within the connection rules of n hour max, DB1B will allow you to identify any single ticket as transit whether it's an interline, alliance, or online connection.

flyingclrs727 · Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:00 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The logical difference between an O&D or transit passenger is of course, does the journey end here or does the passenger continues on his/her journey. If you take the distinction of one or two or more different tickets, than you will count a lot of transit passengers as O&D:

I don't think the separate tickets happens enough that the airlines worry that much about it. I think we are giving them too much credit to think they would track that (or even have a way to track it).

I does happen though. Especially from smaller USA airports to Europe. Sometimes it is a lot cheaper for me to book a ticket to New York or Chicago then book a separate ticket to Europe from those locations then to book one the entire way. If I am booking WN from my home airport to New York then UA from New York to London there is now way for them to know I did that. The airlines aren't sharing that info so as far as WN knows I was in New York for a week and as far as UA knows I just flew in and out of New York.

I wouldn't book a flight on WN to LGA for a connection the same day at JFK especially with the construction of the new terminal at LGA.

frmrCapCadet · Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:47 pm

So I have gone through several airports where I had to leave secure area and re-enter with new security - AND - so far as I was concerned it was all part of one trip

Or I have had friends combine business trips around the world - every stop was a destination, and also a transfer.

It varies from the point of new of the passenger, the airline, and the airport - and even the individual plane, or the crew for that matter. I think this is one of those things where one has to ask the speaker to define his or her terms.

NichCage · Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:21 pm

This is the way that I would describe the difference between O&D and transit passenger.

Let's use SK on CPH-SFO for example. There are passengers who fly from CPH to SFO who come from Copenhagen or other regions of Denmark. Passengers who fly back to SFO to CPH who live in Copenhagen or Denmark are O&D passengers.

Transit passengers could be flying HEL-CPH-SFO and back and do not account for the local demand between CPH and SFO. So they don't count when it comes to the local demand, just extra passengers who choose to fly the route.

Aither · Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:41 pm

That's how Emirates carries much more passengers than they sell tickets...

tmoney · Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:43 pm

airbazar wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The logical difference between an O&D or transit passenger is of course, does the journey end here or does the passenger continues on his/her journey. If you take the distinction of one or two or more different tickets, than you will count a lot of transit passengers as O&D:

On the topic of transit vs. O&D, i'm pretty sure there is a timing factor as well. You have to stay in the country/city X amount of hours in order to be considered O&D.
tmoney wrote:
Let me try and explain how we count O&D/transit pax here in RGN.
The distinction between the two is "Does the pax leave the airport?" And we draw that line - quite literally - at security exit points, where we have digital counters. (Once you cross the exit point you have to go through security again, very similar to the US.)

That seems very odd. It would never work at airports with international arrivals or where changing terminals is required for a connection.

No, sir, Yangon Mingalardon International Airport is the country's largest airport comprised of 3 terminals. And as the name would suggest, we do have international arrivals. And might we suggest we also have seamless transfer between intl-intl, domestic-intl, and vice-versa? It's not counted when a passenger travels through those transfer points.

PerfectGriffin · Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:10 pm

Aither wrote:
That's how Emirates carries much more passengers than they sell tickets...

What??

EK uses the same system that all airlines use...

O&D versus pax how are numbers calculated.

O&D versus pax how are numbers calculated.

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