Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
aerorobnz wrote:I hope they do better than all the armchair CEOs would suggest. There are many airlines that are losing money, AF, AZ, EY, VA, SQ, CX. I'm sure most of you wouldn't be so critical of those airlines starting routes to new markets, Sometimes an airline has to break away from what it has been doing to turn things around - Let's hope that's what JFK is for KQ. Financials aside, as an airline, they have a competitive product and if they can work through any potential payload issues hopefully it can help the KQ cause.
aerorobnz wrote:I hope they do better than all the armchair CEOs would suggest. Sometimes an airline has to break away from what it has been doing to turn things around
jsfr wrote:This is great news for east Africa! utting aside the profitability versus flying code shares via europe for a second - this is a much better option for East African business people - CDG:AMS:LHR are seriously out of the way (8 hours flying due north before turning left
sxf24 wrote:jfk777 wrote:
Delta had plans to fly to NBO. I’m sure if they were actually starting service it’d be hailed as a brilliant decision.
MIflyer12 wrote:jsfr wrote:This is great news for east Africa! utting aside the profitability versus flying code shares via europe for a second - this is a much better option for East African business people - CDG:AMS:LHR are seriously out of the way (8 hours flying due north before turning left
You need to play around with Great Circle Mapper.
NBO-JFK is 7,360 statute miles in a Great Circle route
NBO-AMS-JFK is 7,784 sm.
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:sxf24 wrote:jfk777 wrote:
Delta had plans to fly to NBO. I’m sure if they were actually starting service it’d be hailed as a brilliant decision.
Delta never decided to launch the route, airlines plan tons of stuff in the end Delta didn't do it. Also Delta has the cash to try a large gamble.
usflyer msp wrote:slcdeltarumd11 wrote:sxf24 wrote:
Delta never decided to launch the route, airlines plan tons of stuff in the end Delta didn't do it. Also Delta has the cash to try a large gamble.
Delta was days away from launching JFK-DKR-NBO and the US government made them cancel it due to security concerns...
usflyer msp wrote:slcdeltarumd11 wrote:sxf24 wrote:
Delta never decided to launch the route, airlines plan tons of stuff in the end Delta didn't do it. Also Delta has the cash to try a large gamble.
Delta was days away from launching JFK-DKR-NBO and the US government made them cancel it due to security concerns...
evanb wrote:Looking at pricing, they offering business class fares at $2,600 roundtrip NBO-JFK-NBO, and $4,700 roundtrip JFK-NBO-JFK, so it's clear where they're looking to make this work. So this route is going to be highly dependent on DL-AF-KL providing a solid sales and distribution capacity for them in the US.
MileHFL400 wrote:usflyer msp wrote:slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Delta never decided to launch the route, airlines plan tons of stuff in the end Delta didn't do it. Also Delta has the cash to try a large gamble.
Delta was days away from launching JFK-DKR-NBO and the US government made them cancel it due to security concerns...
It was literally one day if my memory serves me correctly
usdcaguy wrote:There’s no sales agreement, no distribution capacity unless there really is a contract for DL to provide those services. KQ might be better off doing their own thing on this so they can price however they want to fill the plane and sell what they can themselves. SkyTeam affiliation helps win customers, but ultimately, they will need to hustle.
RWA380 wrote:This must have been discussed in one form or another, dozens of time, with members frantically stabbing at one point or another about this route for years. Here we are at an official announcement & now it's getting negativity? Oh well, just an observation, I thought if this ever happened (which I'm a bit skeptical still) there would be more interested support.
evanb wrote:usdcaguy wrote:There’s no sales agreement, no distribution capacity unless there really is a contract for DL to provide those services. KQ might be better off doing their own thing on this so they can price however they want to fill the plane and sell what they can themselves. SkyTeam affiliation helps win customers, but ultimately, they will need to hustle.
But that's the point I'm making. They're going into a market where they have very little experience and expertise in terms of sales and distribution. If DL are going to assist them by taking a big chunk of the capacity and sell through a DL codeshare then they might have a better chance to make this work. If they're going to start from scratch it's going to be a real slog and if, as a result, they end up selling most of their business class seats ex-NBO for $2,500 return then there is zero chance this works.
usdcaguy wrote:I agree. That said, I’ve always wondered why DL has not tried to do more with KQ. I know they want to protect revenue on their JV with AF/KL, but a direct flight seems like an opportunity to me to get a little more traffic into JFK (like it needs it).
usdcaguy wrote:evanb wrote:usdcaguy wrote:There’s no sales agreement, no distribution capacity unless there really is a contract for DL to provide those services. KQ might be better off doing their own thing on this so they can price however they want to fill the plane and sell what they can themselves. SkyTeam affiliation helps win customers, but ultimately, they will need to hustle.
But that's the point I'm making. They're going into a market where they have very little experience and expertise in terms of sales and distribution. If DL are going to assist them by taking a big chunk of the capacity and sell through a DL codeshare then they might have a better chance to make this work. If they're going to start from scratch it's going to be a real slog and if, as a result, they end up selling most of their business class seats ex-NBO for $2,500 return then there is zero chance this works.
I agree. That said, I’ve always wondered why DL has not tried to do more with KQ. I know they want to protect revenue on their JV with AF/KL, but a direct flight seems like an opportunity to me to get a little more traffic into JFK (like it needs it).
berari wrote:RWA380 wrote:This must have been discussed in one form or another, dozens of time, with members frantically stabbing at one point or another about this route for years. Here we are at an official announcement & now it's getting negativity? Oh well, just an observation, I thought if this ever happened (which I'm a bit skeptical still) there would be more interested support.
What you are seeing is not negativity, but skepticism about the overtly ambitious approach. Everybody's happy for KQ's ambitions, any new service from Africa to North America is welcomed.
eastafspot wrote:A same day return ticket on ADD-NBO-JFK including the 2 inaugural flights for only €652 in eco or € 1697 (or €1795 directly on KQ's website) in business class.... jeez awesome!!!
Eco fare:
https://www.skyscanner.fr/transport/vol ... me#results
Business fare:
https://www.skyscanner.fr/transport/vol ... 1811011650
It would be my very first time to the US, the worry is how painful/harsh would be the immigration and TSA, CIA and the likes for a 5h stay in Trump soil?
Very tempted to secure right now a comfy window seat for the 102 XP (enough for the Flying Blue Silver level), and more important, the great parties planned...
usflyer msp wrote:
What nations passport do you have? If you have an EU or other major developed county passport you might be ok. Any other country, expect to be sent to a secondary interview and grilled about your short stay.
eastafspot wrote:A same day return ticket on ADD-NBO-JFK including the 2 inaugural flights for only €652 in eco or € 1697 (or €1795 directly on KQ's website) in business class.... jeez awesome!!!
Eco fare:
https://www.skyscanner.fr/transport/vol ... me#results
Business fare:
https://www.skyscanner.fr/transport/vol ... 1811011650
It would be my very first time to the US, the worry is how painful/harsh would be the immigration and TSA, CIA and the likes for a 5h stay in Trump soil?
Very tempted to secure right now a comfy window seat for the 102 XP (enough for the Flying Blue Silver level), and more important, the great parties planned...
guyanam wrote:berari wrote:RWA380 wrote:This must have been discussed in one form or another, dozens of time, with members frantically stabbing at one point or another about this route for years. Here we are at an official announcement & now it's getting negativity? Oh well, just an observation, I thought if this ever happened (which I'm a bit skeptical still) there would be more interested support.
What you are seeing is not negativity, but skepticism about the overtly ambitious approach. Everybody's happy for KQ's ambitions, any new service from Africa to North America is welcomed.
95k US visitors to Kenya plus ample business traffic that routes through various European hubs. Maybe daily is too optimistic but it does seem as if there is a market for this route. Especially as it also opens up other parts of East Africa. It might even stimulate more tourism, given that East Africa is well known among eco adventure travelers.
eastafspot wrote:usflyer msp wrote:
What nations passport do you have? If you have an EU or other major developed county passport you might be ok. Any other country, expect to be sent to a secondary interview and grilled about your short stay.
Thanks for the quick answer!
I've got a dual citizenship French and Rwandan, will they ask to look at both passport and all the itinerary and question for hours (more than 3h lol) ??
What do you mean by " you might be ok"...?
af773atmsp wrote:Definitely MSP. I heard from someone in 2008 that they were looking at NBO-CDG-MSP.
But seriously, I'll guess JFK.
eastafspot wrote:usflyer msp wrote:
What nations passport do you have? If you have an EU or other major developed county passport you might be ok. Any other country, expect to be sent to a secondary interview and grilled about your short stay.
Thanks for the quick answer!
I've got a dual citizenship French and Rwandan, will they ask to look at both passport and all the itinerary and question for hours (more than 3h lol) ??
What do you mean by " you might be ok"...?
eastafspot wrote:A same day return ticket on ADD-NBO-JFK including the 2 inaugural flights for only €652 in eco or € 1697 (or €1795 directly on KQ's website) in business class.... jeez awesome!!!
Eco fare:
https://www.skyscanner.fr/transport/vol ... me#results
Business fare:
https://www.skyscanner.fr/transport/vol ... 1811011650
It would be my very first time to the US, the worry is how painful/harsh would be the immigration and TSA, CIA and the likes for a 5h stay in Trump soil?
Very tempted to secure right now a comfy window seat for the 102 XP (enough for the Flying Blue Silver level), and more important, the great parties planned...
RWA380 wrote:guyanam wrote:berari wrote:
What you are seeing is not negativity, but skepticism about the overtly ambitious approach. Everybody's happy for KQ's ambitions, any new service from Africa to North America is welcomed.
95k US visitors to Kenya plus ample business traffic that routes through various European hubs. Maybe daily is too optimistic but it does seem as if there is a market for this route. Especially as it also opens up other parts of East Africa. It might even stimulate more tourism, given that East Africa is well known among eco adventure travelers.
One company I worked for in San Francisco, we handled the air itineraries for a mountain climbing company in Seattle called Mountain Madness, we booked a lot of people flying to JRO & of course we booked tons of NW/KL over AMS, so I can see how a route like this could provide a huge advantage to East Africa from the USA,
However we rarely booked premium travel, as the land portions were real expensive & most were rugged types that were prepared to be uncomfortable & pay for it, so why not fly coach? I'm sure quick & easy connections will be available to Zanzibar, Arusha & the myriad of other tourist & adventure destinations.
But for anywhere but NYC origin pax, this is going to be as many connections from the left coast as going over AMS, PDX-AMS-NBO or PDX-JFK-NBO. I hope KQ can get some premium cabin sales all year round to help balance the financials of this ULH flight. At least over AMS one can get to JRO n/s instead of connecting in NBO.
I too am skeptical of this route being able to perform both ways non-stop with a meaningful payload, but KQ thinks it can be done, the very best of luck to them. When or if anyone reads prior threads on this topic, I remember the "spirit" of the threads being more excited than skeptical, just an observation & not so much a critique.
usflyer msp wrote:usdcaguy wrote:evanb wrote:
But that's the point I'm making. They're going into a market where they have very little experience and expertise in terms of sales and distribution. If DL are going to assist them by taking a big chunk of the capacity and sell through a DL codeshare then they might have a better chance to make this work. If they're going to start from scratch it's going to be a real slog and if, as a result, they end up selling most of their business class seats ex-NBO for $2,500 return then there is zero chance this works.
I agree. That said, I’ve always wondered why DL has not tried to do more with KQ. I know they want to protect revenue on their JV with AF/KL, but a direct flight seems like an opportunity to me to get a little more traffic into JFK (like it needs it).
Why?
US-East Africa is not a large market and the JV with KL via AMS covers all of the major East Africa destinations (and them some). Developing a deeper relationship with KQ would require a lot of effort for very little benefit.
usdcaguy wrote:A codeshare relationship is easy to do and doesn’t cost much. There would be some benefit there, if KQ were willing to pay the passthrough rate for flights to and from JFK. KL does sell tickets on KQ and v.v., so I don’t see why putting some passengers on the direct flight would be a big deal, especially since KQ is in SkyTeam and will often be cheaper anyway.
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:This is going to bleed money. Not sure this is a good time for them. They should have tried one stop first, and seen how that went. There are many places on the way even Spain or Portugal if they could get the approvals are pretty much on the way.
Cool plane to see at JFK, but should have been one stop. They have all of sky teams connection power is there best shot. Fingers crossed I just really hope this doesn't bleed more then they can handle.
MileHFL400 wrote:With this in mind i am under the assumption that the 2 787s are coming back from Oman.
berari wrote:usdcaguy wrote:A codeshare relationship is easy to do and doesn’t cost much. There would be some benefit there, if KQ were willing to pay the passthrough rate for flights to and from JFK. KL does sell tickets on KQ and v.v., so I don’t see why putting some passengers on the direct flight would be a big deal, especially since KQ is in SkyTeam and will often be cheaper anyway.
It could become an issue for KL if it erodes into its existing service into AMS. Why support the sale of tickets on the NBO-JFK-3rd city at the expense of its existing NBO-AMS-3rd city offering? The same goes for DL which has a JV on transatlantic with AF/KL.slcdeltarumd11 wrote:This is going to bleed money. Not sure this is a good time for them. They should have tried one stop first, and seen how that went. There are many places on the way even Spain or Portugal if they could get the approvals are pretty much on the way.
Cool plane to see at JFK, but should have been one stop. They have all of sky teams connection power is there best shot. Fingers crossed I just really hope this doesn't bleed more then they can handle.
Forward bookings could lead them to decide on changes to the planned service. KQ has a good reputation in Africa and could get in on a one stop service via West Africa, possibly even filling in where DL backed out off because it didn't make economic sense to them.MileHFL400 wrote:With this in mind i am under the assumption that the 2 787s are coming back from Oman.
I was also thinking this. The NBO-JFK rotation will require capacity that the airline does not have. The wet lease that Oman Air signed was three year agreement that began in 2016.
sxf24 wrote:People are forgetting that KQ has a JV with KL, who also has an ownership stake and a seat on the board of directors. KL has very good insight into US-East Africa traffic, probably more so than any other airline. This decision was made with KL input and approval.
kq747 wrote:berari wrote:usdcaguy wrote:A codeshare relationship is easy to do and doesn’t cost much. There would be some benefit there, if KQ were willing to pay the passthrough rate for flights to and from JFK. KL does sell tickets on KQ and v.v., so I don’t see why putting some passengers on the direct flight would be a big deal, especially since KQ is in SkyTeam and will often be cheaper anyway.
It could become an issue for KL if it erodes into its existing service into AMS. Why support the sale of tickets on the NBO-JFK-3rd city at the expense of its existing NBO-AMS-3rd city offering? The same goes for DL which has a JV on transatlantic with AF/KL.slcdeltarumd11 wrote:This is going to bleed money. Not sure this is a good time for them. They should have tried one stop first, and seen how that went. There are many places on the way even Spain or Portugal if they could get the approvals are pretty much on the way.
Cool plane to see at JFK, but should have been one stop. They have all of sky teams connection power is there best shot. Fingers crossed I just really hope this doesn't bleed more then they can handle.
Forward bookings could lead them to decide on changes to the planned service. KQ has a good reputation in Africa and could get in on a one stop service via West Africa, possibly even filling in where DL backed out off because it didn't make economic sense to them.MileHFL400 wrote:With this in mind i am under the assumption that the 2 787s are coming back from Oman.
I was also thinking this. The NBO-JFK rotation will require capacity that the airline does not have. The wet lease that Oman Air signed was three year agreement that began in 2016.
I too was wondering about this. All of their routes except BKK-CAN can be done with one 787. I'm guessing they would have switch 787 for 737 on DXB/JNB/BOM or get their wet leased a/c back. Curious to see how this plays out...
usflyer msp wrote:sxf24 wrote:People are forgetting that KQ has a JV with KL, who also has an ownership stake and a seat on the board of directors. KL has very good insight into US-East Africa traffic, probably more so than any other airline. This decision was made with KL input and approval.
KLM only has one KQ board seat and a 7.8% holding in the airline - not enough to block something most of the other board members agree to it. The Kenyan government and the KQ management effectively control 7 of the 12 board seats and the government most likely sees non-stop flights to NYC as being in the national interest and most likely greenlighted the plan over the objections of KL.
berari wrote:Kenya Airways is going to announce its first route to the US tomorrow according to the article below:National carrier Kenya Airways (KQ) plans to start marketing direct flights to the United States this week. The airline will begin selling tickets on the new route tomorrow, whereby travellers will have an opportunity to pre-book the inaugural and subsequent flights slated for later in the year.
Read more at: https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/busines ... us-flights
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/busines ... us-flights
sxf24 wrote:The commercial leadership is seconded from KL and KL still has a big input in route planning and revenue management. The government certainly wants the flight, but trying to paint the decision as blind/random/ignorant ignores the fact KQ has some of the best insight into US-NBO-East Africa demand and pricing via its relationship with KL.
usflyer msp wrote:eastafspot wrote:usflyer msp wrote:
What nations passport do you have? If you have an EU or other major developed county passport you might be ok. Any other country, expect to be sent to a secondary interview and grilled about your short stay.
Thanks for the quick answer!
I've got a dual citizenship French and Rwandan, will they ask to look at both passport and all the itinerary and question for hours (more than 3h lol) ??
What do you mean by " you might be ok"...?
You should definitely use your French passport - then you should be able to use a kiosk and avoid the interaction with CBP staff (who will be very skeptical of your itinerary). Since this would be your first visit to the US and you are coming Africa you still might get flagged but much less likely with the French passport.
kq747 wrote:I too was wondering about this. All of their routes except BKK-CAN can be done with one 787. I'm guessing they would have switch 787 for 737 on DXB/JNB/BOM or get their wet leased a/c back. Curious to see how this plays out...
sxf24 wrote:People are forgetting that KQ has a JV with KL, who also has an ownership stake and a seat on the board of directors. KL has very good insight into US-East Africa traffic, probably more so than any other airline. This decision was made with KL input and approval.
sxf24 wrote:The commercial leadership is seconded from KL and KL still has a big input in route planning and revenue management. The government certainly wants the flight, but trying to paint the decision as blind/random/ignorant ignores the fact KQ has some of the best insight into US-NBO-East Africa demand and pricing via its relationship with KL.
jfk777 wrote:The last few years have not been great for Kenya Airways and now they want to fly 15 hours nonstop daily to New York with a 787-8 ? I applaud the ambition, this sounds like a financial disaster waiting to happen. KA should start 3 times weekly and build up the route as demand expands. The other question is what has KA been doing with its fleet that all of a sudden it has two 787 "available" to fly to JFK.
KA sold 25% of itself years ago to KLM (before merging with AF), now AF/KLM and Delta with are in Skyteam and have a huge JV. Wouldn't KA be better flying to CDG, LHR and AMS for its traffic to the USA ?
berari wrote:kq747 wrote:I too was wondering about this. All of their routes except BKK-CAN can be done with one 787. I'm guessing they would have switch 787 for 737 on DXB/JNB/BOM or get their wet leased a/c back. Curious to see how this plays out...
Those are three competitive routes and they also have high demand. Why cut capacity where they need them?
berari wrote:It could become an issue for KL if it erodes into its existing service into AMS. Why support the sale of tickets on the NBO-JFK-3rd city at the expense of its existing NBO-AMS-3rd city offering? The same goes for DL which has a JV on transatlantic with AF/KL.