redrooster3 wrote:

United will start implementing international 757s with flatbed seats on the SAN-EWR/IAD routes starting October 4th to compete with JetBlue's Mint product.

Did a dummy booking on the website and was surprised that all three flights will have the lie-flats. B6 offers Mint on both flights. Of Delta's three flights, only the midday flight has lie-flats (+D1 service). I wonder if they'd like to upgrade the other flights but are short on aircraft to do it. I also wonder where the UA planes are getting reallocated from. I haven't kept pace with their recent service changes or cancelled routes.

Interesting to see the changes to the NYC market and to see the fight for premium pax. The addition of IAD to the mix is interesting since UA has that to themselves.

SANFan wrote:

The EMJ will start the day in SEA, fly to ELP, then to SAN and back to Texas, before returning to SEA. It apparently will be op'd with an in-house (QX) EMJ that will turn in SAN at 2-ish in the afternoon.

Welp, we were feeling pretty pessimistic about new service so this is a nice surprise. I'm never opposed to more of my namesake plane dropping by.

Coronado990 wrote:

Why in the heck would a Addis Ababa-St. Paul (I assume they mean MSP)-San Diego route be on Guangzhou's route wishlist?. Doesn't ET already fly CAN-ADD? Seems like the long way around to serve San Diego from Guangzhou but I guess it's just cargo. Maybe they will serve Brown Field (SDM) instead of Lindbergh. You never know.

It's a bit odd, yeah. My only thought is cargo connected with manufacturing in Tj but then why not serve TIJ itself? And ADD is a long way from MSP so I'm not sure how that leg is supposed to work. Would love to see new tails here but this seems far-fetched.

UA upgrading EWR-SAN could be a real problem for AS, who has seen their yields crash since B6 put mint on JFK-SAN.

amadorE175 wrote:

redrooster3 wrote:

United will start implementing international 757s with flatbed seats on the SAN-EWR/IAD routes starting October 4th to compete with JetBlue's Mint product.

Did a dummy booking on the website and was surprised that all three flights will have the lie-flats. B6 offers Mint on both flights. Of Delta's three flights, only the midday flight has lie-flats (+D1 service). I wonder if they'd like to upgrade the other flights but are short on aircraft to do it. I also wonder where the UA planes are getting reallocated from. I haven't kept pace with their recent service changes or cancelled routes.

Interesting to see the changes to the NYC market and to see the fight for premium pax. The addition of IAD to the mix is interesting since UA has that to themselves.

Two thoughts. As I mentioned up-thread, I'm still waiting to see what AA does with their one or two JFK flights. They're #3 in the market (as far as seats are concerned) but I would think they don't plan on axing the route. So I would expect to see them step it up to some degree to try to remain as competitive as possible.

I also continue to expect to see AS add SAN-JFK to their route map; whether they will then continue to fly to EWR remains a question. I also note that WN is in the SAN-EWR market as well and they seem to be satisfied with what they are getting out of it, without any premium seating at all.

amadorE175 wrote:

SANFan wrote:

The EMJ will start the day in SEA, fly to ELP, then to SAN and back to Texas, before returning to SEA.

Welp, we were feeling pretty pessimistic about new service so this is a nice surprise. I'm never opposed to more of my namesake plane dropping by.

Yep. After AS's SEA-CMH announcement, it was said that there were 3 more announcements to come; the time frame of how soon remains in question. (Also, whether ELP counts as 2 announcements or just one, I'm not sure.) In any case, there should still be at least one more new route announcement to come!

I know that I've decided to be much more patient and understanding regarding AS's growth in SAN and the timing. So SAN-ELP did come as a total surprise -- a MOST pleasant one! And even though SAN's growth is not like it was a year or two ago, it's still right up there in network (and especially California) expansion by the carrier and their reduced growth expectations.

bb

SANFan wrote:

amadorE175 wrote:

redrooster3 wrote:

United will start implementing international 757s with flatbed seats on the SAN-EWR/IAD routes starting October 4th to compete with JetBlue's Mint product.

Did a dummy booking on the website and was surprised that all three flights will have the lie-flats. B6 offers Mint on both flights. Of Delta's three flights, only the midday flight has lie-flats (+D1 service). I wonder if they'd like to upgrade the other flights but are short on aircraft to do it. I also wonder where the UA planes are getting reallocated from. I haven't kept pace with their recent service changes or cancelled routes.

Interesting to see the changes to the NYC market and to see the fight for premium pax. The addition of IAD to the mix is interesting since UA has that to themselves.

Two thoughts. As I mentioned up-thread, I'm still waiting to see what AA does with their one or two JFK flights. They're #3 in the market (as far as seats are concerned) but I would think they don't plan on axing the route. So I would expect to see them step it up to some degree to try to remain as competitive as possible.

I also continue to expect to see AS add SAN-JFK to their route map; whether they will then continue to fly to EWR remains a question. I also note that WN is in the SAN-EWR market as well and they seem to be satisfied with what they are getting out of it, without any premium seating at all.

Do you think AAG will use its own metal or just codeshare with AA?

Hydrahawk wrote:

SANFan wrote:

I also continue to expect to see AS add SAN-JFK to their route map; whether they will then continue to fly to EWR remains a question.

Do you think AAG will use its own metal or just codeshare with AA?

My understanding is that AS cannot codeshare onto AA's SAN-JFK flight(s) as Kennedy is an AA hub. I believe they did codeshare prior to the stipulations that were part of the takeover of VX by AS.

The big hole in AS's network out of JFK right now is SAN and with the JFK-LAS flight going away soon, seems like an obvious opportunity for AAG to me. Fingers crossed!

BTW gang, on another topic, there's starting to be an uptick in the chatter about PAE in Everett, WA getting close to being authorized by the FAA to begin operations. Early next year for start of service is being mentioned. That should take AAG to 31 destinations from SAN as there will be a daily EMJ r/t offered in the market!

I had wondered if WN might add a SAN-PAE flight too but they apparently are connecting only 2 closer hubs, OAK and DEN, with Everett, which certainly makes sense.

I'm really looking forward to the start of that route. I spend a lot of time on Whidbey Island in the Puget Sound and Paine Field is practically within walking distance of the Mukilteo ferry which transports most people onto and off of the island.

bb

As a UA MP, this is great news on upgrade to IAW/EWR. The flatbeds and more capacity to east coast is long overdue. Most of UA's 737's outta SAN are sold out and cramped at times. I miss the old days when UA had lots of 757's to most of their hubs. Obviously will never see that again with poor fuel performance of their 200's, but I believe most of UA's domestic 757's are 300's now with flatbed first. A great addition to hear about with most news on SAN mostly about WN and AAG and international speculation.

SANFan wrote:

Hydrahawk wrote:

SANFan wrote:

I also continue to expect to see AS add SAN-JFK to their route map; whether they will then continue to fly to EWR remains a question.

Do you think AAG will use its own metal or just codeshare with AA?

My understanding is that AS cannot codeshare onto AA's SAN-JFK flight(s) as Kennedy is an AA hub. I believe they did codeshare prior to the stipulations that were part of the takeover of VX by AS.

The big hole in AS's network out of JFK right now is SAN and with the JFK-LAS flight going away soon, seems like an obvious opportunity for AAG to me. Fingers crossed!

BTW gang, on another topic, there's starting to be an uptick in the chatter about PAE in Everett, WA getting close to being authorized by the FAA to begin operations. Early next year for start of service is being mentioned. That should take AAG to 31 destinations from SAN as there will be a daily EMJ r/t offered in the market!

I had wondered if WN might add a SAN-PAE flight too but they apparently are connecting only 2 closer hubs, OAK and DEN, with Everett, which certainly makes sense.

I'm really looking forward to the start of that route. I spend a lot of time on Whidbey Island in the Puget Sound and Paine Field is practically within walking distance of the Mukilteo ferry which transports most people onto and off of the island.

bb

You are right. I was confused that it was only between hub-hub...

757SanCam wrote:

As a UA MP, this is great news on upgrade to IAW/EWR. The flatbeds and more capacity to east coast is long overdue. Most of UA's 737's outta SAN are sold out and cramped at times. I miss the old days when UA had lots of 757's to most of their hubs. Obviously will never see that again with poor fuel performance of their 200's, but I believe most of UA's domestic 757's are 300's now with flatbed first. A great addition to hear about with most news on SAN mostly about WN and AAG and international speculation.

Yes, great news for SAN as this seems like a pretty committed thing from UA. The schedule out to January shows 757s on all 3 flights to EWR. IAD will see the 757 certain times of the remaining 2018 as the daytime and redeye flight. I don't see these being EWR flights being a Premium Service (ps) flight just yet so don't expect the Polaris treatment.

Here are some older photos of the FIs being built, this if the FIs for Gate 46 & 47. You can see how Gate 46 jet bridge is still assembled during the construction and was not needed to be removed.







Right now, it's all tarped off and they're spraying the concrete with something, but progress is coming along nicely!

Gate 48 aircraft stop markings:





Gate 50A: (Gate 49 becomes unusable if Gate 50A is used)

Hey red', thanks as always for the great pix of the latest at SAN.

I've got a couple of questions. There wasn't a gate 50A when the Green Build opened; there were 50 and 51 (the last gate, with the glass bridge, used by HA, etc.) Have they actually renamed those gates at the west end, or somehow inserted an additional gate in between 50 and 51?

Also, any chance you could snap a couple of shots of the inside, overhead sterile corridor that carries all the arriving int'l pax from the gates to the FIS facilities? That's the remaining part of the new-FIS puzzle that I still cant' really visualize. I still have not found any help from the SDIA in picture or video form, showing this.

Last question for you. Is the observation of the airside op's (gates, apron, runway, etc.) from inside the building (sitting at the departure hold rooms) decreased now? IOW, since all the structure for the swing gates, escalators, etc., was added to the outside of the building, is it still possible to see out thru the windows and watch aircraft movements?

Looks like SDIA is ready for most any int'l aircraft! Great! Let's hope we see some new metal from some new int'l flags soon!

Thanks again for your efforts at keeping us updated, red.

bb

SANFan wrote:

Hey red', thanks as always for the great pix of the latest at SAN.

I've got a couple of questions. There wasn't a gate 50A when the Green Build opened; there were 50 and 51 (the last gate, with the glass bridge, used by HA, etc.) Have they actually renamed those gates at the west end, or somehow inserted an additional gate in between 50 and 51?

Also, any chance you could snap a couple of shots of the inside, overhead sterile corridor that carries all the arriving int'l pax from the gates to the FIS facilities? That's the remaining part of the new-FIS puzzle that I still cant' really visualize. I still have not found any help from the SDIA in picture or video form, showing this.

Last question for you. Is the observation of the airside op's (gates, apron, runway, etc.) from inside the building (sitting at the departure hold rooms) decreased now? IOW, since all the structure for the swing gates, escalators, etc., was added to the outside of the building, is it still possible to see out thru the windows and watch aircraft movements?

Looks like SDIA is ready for most any int'l aircraft! Great! Let's hope we see some new metal from some new int'l flags soon!

Thanks again for your efforts at keeping us updated, red.

bb

There is still a gate 51 (Glass bridge) but a new lead-in line for Gate 50 was added to accommodate when needed; which is Gate 50A. If you zoom into the photo, you can see at the end its a dashed line and not solid. And to answer your question, The visibility has been decreased, but not dramatically. No windows were removed from what I can tell, but you now have a 'lump' sticking out of the building which could obstruct your view for plane spotting, somewhat. That lump being the FI's building. And I can't snap photos of anything inside the customs area, so that will have to remain a mystery.

Thanks again red'.

I'm just going to have to fly somewhere out of T2 and have a look for myself! I must misunderstand the overall design of the FIS and its access. I simply don't understand how the arriving pax get from the plane (and jetway) to the entry into the FIS facilities, which is on the third (top ) level of the terminal. From an article on the new facilities:

The new facility leads passengers up to the third floor first, so they can experience daylight after a long international flight.

bb

https://twitter.com/Airlineroute/status/1050108086608744448

In what I can take only as positive news, LH will mix its 5-weekly frequencies between 3x A346 and 2x A343 from 03 March 19. A346 also scheduled for, as the commenters note, Nov 29 and Dec 4, the same days as the one-off AF 777 flights. Even in the less premium of LH's A346 it's a move to a more premium aircraft with first class and more in business and premium economy.

Can't wait to see the shots of it flying in!

For comparison:

A343: 30J 28W 221Y

A346: 8F 44J 32W 213Y

Wow! That's positive news! LH might be testing the A346 here to see if they could fill up an A346 and deploy it here fulltime! Remember BA was alternating between the 772 and the 77W before they started using the 77W and 744 fulltime!

amadorE175 wrote:

In what I can take only as positive news, LH will mix its 5-weekly frequencies between 3x A346 and 2x A343 from 03 March 19. A346 also scheduled for, as the commenters note, Nov 29 and Dec 4, the same days as the one-off AF 777 flights. Even in the less premium of LH's A346 it's a move to a more premium aircraft with first class and more in business and premium economy.

Can't wait to see the shots of it flying in!

For comparison:
A343: 30J 28W 221Y
A346: 8F 44J 32W 213Y

Wow! Thanks for sharing Amador. Very encouraging! I've been hearing some quiet talk that LH was not doing as well as they had expected since their start at SAN in March. Taken along with the preview for next summer's sked holding steady at 5x weekly was getting me a bit worried.

But this is great news; maybe it was easier for LH to do this mix of a/c rather than to go daily. And of course they are going ahead with their planned skeds of year-round service which is also a good sign. Plus, it's always very positive to see an increase in the number of Premium seats in an intercontinental market!

The AF flights are for a medical conference in SAN so I'm sure LH is also carrying lots of (extra) people to SAN for the same conference! Would be a really great days to spot at SAN!

bb

Hey question for the thread. Recently took the SAN-MCO flight on AS for the third time this year. As usual, it was packed. Along with WN and F9 ... was wondering what the connection(s) are between Orlando and San Diego that drives such demand. I realize I have been 3 times but they are all for random reasons. Just wondering if it’s Disney etc. thanks for any info !

I was getting a little worried when LH announced they were pulling out of SJC. I was hoping our LH flight was not in danger of leaving also. LH bringing in the A346 is very encouraging news! They are also using the A346 during the time when AF makes its brief appearance. maybe that will light a fire under AF? BTW, doesn't the LH A346s have the lower deck lavatories?

Could Delta start CDG?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

SANMAN66 wrote:

BTW, doesn't the LH A346s have the lower deck lavatories?

Yep. Flew it LAX-MUC once. The IB A346s don't (flew that one ORD-MAD).

phxa340 wrote:

Hey question for the thread. Recently took the SAN-MCO flight on AS for the third time this year. As usual, it was packed. Along with WN and F9 ... was wondering what the connection(s) are between Orlando and San Diego that drives such demand. I realize I have been 3 times but they are all for random reasons. Just wondering if it’s Disney etc. thanks for any info !

Connections I'm aware of are Sea World and LEGOLANDs in both places. (Heck, maybe there's a bit of animal traffic/business between the 2 cities due to the Disney Park in Florida and all the SD Zoo parks.) I'm not aware of much military presence in FL but both places are certainly big tourist attractions. Perhaps a bit of cruise crew traffic as well? Oh and when GD was the largest private employer in SD, there was a lot of space traffic between the 2 cities (Cape Canaveral); I think there's still some of a space industry remaining in SAN so that might add some traffic in the market as well.

I remember when AS started the SAN-MCO route (Oct 2012) they talked about business/corporate customers that they were going after. (This talk was due to the fact that AS started the route as a redeye e/b and an early morning w/b; this awful sked lasted almost exactly a year at which time the r/t become daytime and I'm sure the LF on the route increased a lot, especially the seats up front!)

You say all the flights are packed (and I've seen evidence of this elsewhere.) Which brings up the question: why, after 6 years is AS's flight still only 5x weekly? WN and even F9 have run their flights daily from the beginnings.... I really don't understand this.

bb

phxa340 wrote:

Hey question for the thread. Recently took the SAN-MCO flight on AS for the third time this year. As usual, it was packed. Along with WN and F9 ... was wondering what the connection(s) are between Orlando and San Diego that drives such demand. I realize I have been 3 times but they are all for random reasons. Just wondering if it’s Disney etc. thanks for any info !

Sea World, baby! Actually, I don't believe it would account for even half,, but it would have to be a part of it. And once one big business connects cities to other cities, other connections definitely follow.

As far as the A346 and AF 777, I hope to be at Mr. A's for at least one of the arrivals and get video!

A further question: Is there any chance that in the future, instead of going daily to Frankfurt, LH would supplant those two missing days with an A350 to MUC? Or a different mix of days? I don't know if we have the right amount of business connections - and the A350 is a premium-heavy craft - but BA is carrying substantial F and J passengers to LHR, so it's not impossible. I'm going to continue to hope - I thought a Frankfurt flight might never happen, and yet here it is!

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

Sea World, baby! Actually, I don't believe it would account for even half,, but it would have to be a part of it. And once one big business connects cities to other cities, other connections definitely follow.

As far as the A346 and AF 777, I hope to be at Mr. A's for at least one of the arrivals and get video!

A further question: Is there any chance that in the future, instead of going daily to Frankfurt, LH would supplant those two missing days with an A350 to MUC? Or a different mix of days? I don't know if we have the right amount of business connections - and the A350 is a premium-heavy craft - but BA is carrying substantial F and J passengers to LHR, so it's not impossible. I'm going to continue to hope - I thought a Frankfurt flight might never happen, and yet here it is!

Anything's possible! I would think it more likely that FRA will go daily, hopefully with the 346! But there certainly could be a Munich flight in addition if FRA and LH do really well!

This is so surprising and terrific for SAN to see first BA and now (so quickly) LH upping Premium Class seats. The 346 carries only 18 more pax than the 343 but the huge difference up front is the important comparison -- lots of bodies in those F and J seats make airlines very happy! I hope LH will wish they'd come to SAN years ago!

bb

In Q2, AS had average fare of $220 on SAN-MCO with close to 90% LF. Seems like a route that has a lot of demand and can handle additional capacity.

tphuang wrote:

In Q2, AS had average fare of $220 on SAN-MCO with close to 90% LF. Seems like a route that has a lot of demand and can handle additional capacity.

Thank you for the support! (AAG, are you listening?)

AAG was the first carrier to start SAN-MCO -- I don't count the horrible attempt that AirTran made in the market in 2007 -- and perhaps AS was unsure it the route would succeed so they scheduled the flight to operate except Tue and Wed. However, I would think once they changed the flight from a redeye to a daytime trip, or shortly thereafter, the flight would have been made daily. Didn't happen.

Further, once WN surprisingly entered the market in June2014, I would have expected AS to protect 'their' route by at least making their own service daily. Nope.

Finally, in Oct 2016, the 3rd competitor in the market, Frontier, also entered with a daily r/t! And AS continues to op their r/t except on Tue and Wed!

And btw, it's not like the airplane is needed for something else in the SAN schedule.

bb

phxa340 wrote:

Hey question for the thread. Recently took the SAN-MCO flight on AS for the third time this year. As usual, it was packed. Along with WN and F9 ... was wondering what the connection(s) are between Orlando and San Diego that drives such demand. I realize I have been 3 times but they are all for random reasons. Just wondering if it’s Disney etc. thanks for any info !

Tourism and Conventions, even if there are some business ties they probably have minimal overall impact on the flight when compared to tourism and convention travel.

SANFan wrote:

And btw, it's not like the airplane is needed for something else in the SAN schedule.

That doesn't mean the airplane isn't needed elsewhere in the system. It's not like the planes that do SAN flying only fly to and from SAN.

On a leisure market like MCO, most travel will tend towards the weekend so that a vacation includes both weekends. So it could just be that AS feels they're doing well with the 5 days per week and doesn't see sufficient demand to add the extra days. It could be that AS would have gone daily but WN and F9 have already absorbed the demand for those days.

I think airlines these days have mostly gotten past the idea of trying to "protect" markets by flooding them with capacity. That's really a sure way to lose money, the goal there is simply to make your competitor lose more and give up.

hawaiian717 wrote:

In a leisure market like MCO, most travel will tend towards the weekend so that a vacation includes both weekends. So it could just be that AS feels they're doing well with the 5 days per week and doesn't see sufficient demand to add the extra days. It could be that AS would have gone daily but WN and F9 have already absorbed the demand for those days.

I think airlines these days have mostly gotten past the idea of trying to "protect" markets by flooding them with capacity. That's really a sure way to lose money, the goal there is simply to make your competitor lose more and give up.

You may be right and I understand your logic.

However, I believe AS carries at least some corporate travelers between SAN and MCO (as has been discussed in previous posts). In fact, I would bet that pretty much any non-leisure traffic in the market (including military if there is any) would use AS -- what with them offering the only premium seating in the market for starters. I know that Tue and Wed are the least popular days for travel in general but a business traveler would like to have the option of flying on those days if necessary or desired.

Also, I don't feel that offering a single daily year-round flight in a market is necessarily "flooding the market with capacity". AS should have gone daily long before WN entered the market and I honestly don't believe Tue and Wed flights on AS would go anywhere near empty.

bb

SANFan wrote:

In fact, I would bet that pretty much any non-leisure traffic in the market (including military if there is any) would use AS -- what with them offering the only premium seating in the market for starters.

GSA City Pair contract carrier for both FY18 and FY19 for SAN-MCO is Southwest. So government/military traffic will be on WN. Government contractors of course have the ability to book differently (they can't use the City Pair contracts) so some of them might prefer AS.

SANFan wrote:

phxa340 wrote:

Hey question for the thread. Recently took the SAN-MCO flight on AS for the third time this year. As usual, it was packed. Along with WN and F9 ... was wondering what the connection(s) are between Orlando and San Diego that drives such demand. I realize I have been 3 times but they are all for random reasons. Just wondering if it’s Disney etc. thanks for any info !

Connections I'm aware of are Sea World and LEGOLANDs in both places. (Heck, maybe there's a bit of animal traffic/business between the 2 cities due to the Disney Park in Florida and all the SD Zoo parks.) I'm not aware of much military presence in FL but both places are certainly big tourist attractions. Perhaps a bit of cruise crew traffic as well? Oh and when GD was the largest private employer in SD, there was a lot of space traffic between the 2 cities (Cape Canaveral); I think there's still some of a space industry remaining in SAN so that might add some traffic in the market as well.

bb

Military in Florida would be NAS Jacksonville and NavSta Mayport which is not a small base. There are bases on the panhandle of Florida (NAS Pensacola) but they are quite a ways away from Orlando.

I found something interesting regarding DL between SAN and SEA -- they will be all 738s on the route beginning on or about Nov 4!

I found this on Wikipedia and checked it out on DL's website and it appears to be correct -- four daily flights now, all mainline.

Oddly enough AS is now the only cx in the market flying small jets (EMJs in AS's case), and, I just realized, AirBi between SAN and SEA! (However, AS is still primarily Boeings on the route with anywhere between 8 and 9 flights per day total!) WN is the 3rd carrier in the market flying only 1 or 2 flights each day -- Boeing of course.

I don't know if DL is up-gauging a lot of other western cities to SEA to all mainline but this move tells me DL must be selling a healthy number of seats in the market!

I also see that DL will offer Delta One service (Lie-Flat) on one of the nonstops to JFK; the other 2 flights will be 738s.

bb

DL certainly has been upgauging many other cities to SEA from RJ to mainline. They told analysts that SEA would eliminate RJs over time and be 190-195 departures, all jet (presumably inclusing A220s).

SANFan wrote:

I found something interesting regarding DL between SAN and SEA -- they will be all 738s on the route beginning on or about Nov 4!

I found this on Wikipedia and checked it out on DL's website and it appears to be correct -- four daily flights now, all mainline.

Oddly enough AS is now the only cx in the market flying small jets (EMJs in AS's case), and, I just realized, AirBi between SAN and SEA! (However, AS is still primarily Boeings on the route with anywhere between 8 a nd 9 flights per day total!) WN is the 3rd carrier in the market flying only 1 or 2 flights each day -- Boeing of course.

I don't know if DL is up-gauging a lot of other western cities to SEA to all mainline but this move tells me DL must be selling a healthy number of seats in the market!

I also see that DL will offer Delta One service (Lie-Flat) on one of the nonstops to JFK; the other 2 flights will be 738s.

bb

Dl has been flying a lie flat on jfk San for a while and converted it to d1 this April to fight off mint entrance into the market.

tphuang wrote:

SANFan wrote:

I found something interesting regarding DL between SAN and SEA -- they will be all 738s on the route beginning on or about Nov 4!

I found this on Wikipedia and checked it out on DL's website and it appears to be correct -- four daily flights now, all mainline.

Oddly enough AS is now the only cx in the market flying small jets (EMJs in AS's case), and, I just realized, AirBi between SAN and SEA! (However, AS is still primarily Boeings on the route with anywhere between 8 a nd 9 flights per day total!) WN is the 3rd carrier in the market flying only 1 or 2 flights each day -- Boeing of course.

I don't know if DL is up-gauging a lot of other western cities to SEA to all mainline but this move tells me DL must be selling a healthy number of seats in the market!

I also see that DL will offer Delta One service (Lie-Flat) on one of the nonstops to JFK; the other 2 flights will be 738s.

bb

Dl has been flying a lie flat on jfk San for a while and converted it to d1 this April to fight off mint entrance into the market.

Yep, I did JFK-SAN in D1 a couple weeks ago and it was fantastic. Definitely giving Mint a run for their money!

tphuang wrote:

DL has been flying a lie flat on JFK-SAN for a while and converted it to D1 this April to fight off mint entrance into the market.

Yes, I was aware of that, it having been discussed up-thread.

I only mentioned it since the Nov sked is the beginning of the winter season and I thought it a nice sign that DL appears to be continuing the D1 service well past the summer peak season! I might have expected it would not be year-round but it appears it could be.

Hopefully, at some point, we will see additional D1 service on the route. To me, the morning departure from SAN along with the early evening return -- the 8pm arrival in SAN -- would be naturals for Lie-Flat and D1 service as this is certainly the peak r/t for SAN-based travelers, particularly corporate ones!

bb

Scooter wrote:

tphuang wrote:

SANFan wrote:

I found something interesting regarding DL between SAN and SEA -- they will be all 738s on the route beginning on or about Nov 4!

I found this on Wikipedia and checked it out on DL's website and it appears to be correct -- four daily flights now, all mainline.

Oddly enough AS is now the only cx in the market flying small jets (EMJs in AS's case), and, I just realized, AirBi between SAN and SEA! (However, AS is still primarily Boeings on the route with anywhere between 8 a nd 9 flights per day total!) WN is the 3rd carrier in the market flying only 1 or 2 flights each day -- Boeing of course.

I don't know if DL is up-gauging a lot of other western cities to SEA to all mainline but this move tells me DL must be selling a healthy number of seats in the market!

I also see that DL will offer Delta One service (Lie-Flat) on one of the nonstops to JFK; the other 2 flights will be 738s.

bb

Dl has been flying a lie flat on jfk San for a while and converted it to d1 this April to fight off mint entrance into the market.

Yep, I did JFK-SAN in D1 a couple weeks ago and it was fantastic. Definitely giving Mint a run for their money!

prior to mint entrance here, Delta was charging $1500 O/W even for their terrible 36 inch recliners, just because they had one flight with lie flat. All they did really was rebrand that flight as D1 service. And now those 36 inch recliners are getting priced in the more reasonable range of $450 to $700.

In route news for SAN, I just discovered that WN is going daily to ELP starting Jan 7, 2019; this is a major upgrade from the current Sun-only service. And, certainly as a coincidence only, this upgrade to daily service comes about 2 weeks after AS announced daily SAN-ELP service beginning Feb 19! Yeah, right!

I haven't found any sort of announcement about this; I just found it by looking thru WN's skeds. I guess I'm gonna have to do more digging and see what else I can find.

I wonder if G4 will remain in the market at all -- sub-daily and seasonal as they are -- with 2 daily competitors now? I expect not.

bb

The Lufthansa A346 is going to look awesome landing in San Diego!

Does anyone else think it would be cool for British to send the A35Ks to San Diego once they get them?

amadorE175 wrote:

For comparison:

A343: 30J 28W 221Y

A346: 8F 44J 32W 213Y

Looks like the A346 that Lufthansa currently has loaded for the San Diego flights is actually the 8F, 56J, 28W, 189Y version. That certainly could be subject to change. But I think it's safe to say that is a pretty big increase in premium seats.

And perhaps just a coincidence, but it comes very close to the same seat count as the British 77W (14F, 56J, 44W, 185Y).

mikeyp224 wrote:

amadorE175 wrote:

For comparison:

A343: 30J 28W 221Y

A346: 8F 44J 32W 213Y

Looks like the A346 that Lufthansa currently has loaded for the San Diego flights is actually the 8F, 56J, 28W, 189Y version. That certainly could be subject to change. But I think it's safe to say that is a pretty big increase in premium seats.

And perhaps just a coincidence, but it comes very close to the same seat count as the British 77W (14F, 56J, 44W, 185Y).

Thanks for the update on that. And agreed, that's a big increase. It looks like LH will be selling the F seats as business.

Source: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/280949/lufthansa-s19-long-haul-changes-as-of-10oct18/

mikeyp224 wrote:

amadorE175 wrote:

For comparison:

A343: 30J 28W 221Y

A346: 8F 44J 32W 213Y

Looks like the A346 that Lufthansa currently has loaded for the San Diego flights is actually the 8F, 56J, 28W, 189Y version. That certainly could be subject to change. But I think it's safe to say that is a pretty big increase in premium seats.

And perhaps just a coincidence, but it comes very close to the same seat count as the British 77W (14F, 56J, 44W, 185Y).

The three-day-a-week-with-the-A346 thing enthralls me. Having flown on an A340-300 (Edelweiss Air), I can't wait to add the second-longest passenger aircraft to my list of "types flown".

Lufthansa's fleet fascinates me - the multitude of types coupled with premium-heavy sub-fleets allows them to rotate planes quite easily, based on seasonal demand. The 747-8 (yep, I've flown it in business, upper deck!) rotates seasonally in and out of LAX, being the perfect additional aircraft needed in the summer travel season. Now that Lufthansa is comfortable that their new SAN service isn't stealing LAX flyers, they can add in more premium seats to SAN.

I'd love to know, though, where the A346 is going on the non-SAN days (Tuesday through Friday). Anyone know?

I thought that LH was moving all the A346s to MUC? It would really cool if LH did like BA does, use a 77W part of the year, and shift to a 744 the rest of the year. (I can dream can't I?) BTW, BA's Queen of the skies returns to grace the San Diego skies in about two weeks!

SANMAN66 wrote:

I thought that LH was moving all the A346s to MUC? It would really cool if LH did like BA does, use a 77W part of the year, and shift to a 744 the rest of the year. (I can dream can't I?) BTW, BA's Queen of the skies returns to grace the San Diego skies in about two weeks!

I thought so too, but having two hubs and being able to respond quickly to shifting demand/seasonal routes - coupled with fleet commonality - probably means we need to keep our eyes peeled for changes!

I agree with the multiple types "dream" - here's my long-range, long-distance wish list (coupled with some current routes!):

SAN-LHR with BA on a 773 and 744 (for as long as they are around)
SAN-FRA with LH on an A343 and A346
SAN-MUC with LH on an A350 (maybe on days SAN-FRA doesn't operate?)
SAN-ZRH with EW on an A343 seasonally
SAN-AMS with KL on a 787, on non SAN-CDG days
SAN-CDG with AF on a 777, on non SAN-AMS days (maybe we can't sustain both, but one flight each day alternating might work!)

SAN-NRT with JL on a 787
SAN-ICN on KE on a 787 or 747-8 (wouldn't THAT be a sigh?)

SAN-PTY with the 737Max

What about Delta on CDG or AMS?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

I thought so too, but having two hubs and being able to respond quickly to shifting demand/seasonal routes - coupled with fleet commonality - probably means we need to keep our eyes peeled for changes!

Such as aircraft subbing? Similar to several months ago when the LH A340 was flying from FRA-SAN and suffered a birdstrike, and they subbed the A340 with an A330. Now we know the A330 has the legs to do FRA-SAN. It was interesting to see an LH A330 show up in SAN!

As the LH action sinks in, I'm wondering how often do they , or other int'l cx for that matter, inter-mingle their a/c on a single route on a day-to-day basis? It's certainly not uncommon for a carrier to change equipment seasonally, just as BA has done in SAN for a couple of years now between the winter and summer schedules.

In our case, LH's A343 will be used on Wed & Thur while the 346 will be used essentially on the weekends, Sat, Sun & Mon. Is this a common practice? Should we assume that more premium pax fly on the weekends between SAN and FRA and more tourist/economy class travelers fly in the middle of the week?

Or is it likely more of an a/c availability issue? Could they not break a 346 free for the entire 5 days a week they serve SAN, or perhaps they didn't have a 343 for all 5 days? Might this be temporary and they will make SAN all-346 as soon as they are able?

Is there perhaps some sort of encouragement here that a daily flight is not too far off?

You know, as others have mentioned, it's really cool to be having this sort of discussion regarding 2 SAN intercontinental cx alternating service between a huge plane and an even larger one! A340s of different flavors, 747s, and 773s all calling here at our little airport -- amazing IMHO!

Also, I haven't looked it up yet but perhaps someone knows off the top of their head: is the 346 significantly longer than the 343? Noticeable difference by a casual viewer?

bb

SANFan wrote:

Also, I haven't looked it up yet but perhaps someone knows off the top of their head: is the 346 significantly longer than the 343? Noticeable difference by a casual viewer?

bb

Yup! The A346 is significantly longer than the A343, a stretched version of the A340, plus they have the lower-deck lavatories. To the casual viewer, the A346 is long and skinny!

SANFan wrote:

As the LH action sinks in, I'm wondering how often do they , or other int'l cx for that matter, inter-mingle their a/c on a single route on a day-to-day basis? It's certainly not uncommon for a carrier to change equipment seasonally, just as BA has done in SAN for a couple of years now between the winter and summer schedules.

In our case, LH's A343 will be used on Wed & Thur while the 346 will be used essentially on the weekends, Sat, Sun & Mon. Is this a common practice? Should we assume that more premium pax fly on the weekends between SAN and FRA and more tourist/economy class travelers fly in the middle of the week?

Or is it likely more of an a/c availability issue? Could they not break a 346 free for the entire 5 days a week they serve SAN, or perhaps they didn't have a 343 for all 5 days? Might this be temporary and they will make SAN all-346 as soon as they are able?

Is there perhaps some sort of encouragement here that a daily flight is not too far off?

You know, as others have mentioned, it's really cool to be having this sort of discussion regarding 2 SAN intercontinental cx alternating service between a huge plane and an even larger one! A340s of different flavors, 747s, and 773s all calling here at our little airport -- amazing IMHO!

Also, I haven't looked it up yet but perhaps someone knows off the top of their head: is the 346 significantly longer than the 343? Noticeable difference by a casual viewer?bb

Oh, heck yeah!! The A340-300 looks like an original DC-8 while the A340-600 - stretched by nearly 40 feet - while the -600 looks like an even-further-stretched DC-8-73!! In fact, it held the record as the longest passenger airplane in the world for a while, until the 747-8 arrived. Take a look at that statistics:

http://www.aviatorjoe.net/go/compare/A340-300X/A340-600/

http://www.aviatorjoe.net/go/compare/747-8I/A340-600

Take a look at these:



A casual viewer - i.e., a non-airliners.net fanatic - might possibly not notice. They're expecting a big plane, but the A340-300 might look just as big. The casual spotter, however, or someone "more advanced", is going to notice immediately.

My first time seeing one (while spotting at LAX and seeing one fly over the In & Out Burger) I literally couldn't believe how long it was - all the stories of the DC-8 being stretched into infinity came back to me.

What about Delta on CDG or AMS?

Very good question! If I have been keeping up with this business correctly through a.net and my other sources, the main reason it is British Airways and Lufthansa/Edelweiss Air flying these routes is because of who the flights are primarily marketed for: Europeans. And unless there is a significant demand, most big international flights are based on the hub(s), not on a spoke. There are some exceptions: RDU to LHR is on AA, not BA - I believe that's been a contract thing for a while.

Similar to several months ago when the LH A340 was flying from FRA-SAN and suffered a birdstrike, and they subbed the A340 with an A330. Now we know the A330 has the legs to do FRA-SAN. It was interesting to see an LH A330 show up in SAN!

Yep! It's got the range both ways, but it's the take-off restrictions at SAN that limit the amount of cargo that can go into the belly of the A330 that restricts its usage. A plane has to be able to continue its take-off after V2 when an engine failure occurs, and it has to be able to circle around and return for a landing. Within North America, this isn't a problem for any plane; however, intercontinental flights were a problem for many years for SAN because of this - in fact, the 787 was designed to negate this obstacle, which is why JAL uses it for its Tokyo flights!

I'm imagining the scenario went like this after the bird strike: the LH dispatchers did some quick calculations and figured they could fit all the passengers on this A330, meaning there would be no re-routing of any passengers today. The cargo already loaded and ready to go to SAN would not hamper that A330's journey today, so at least on the Frankfurt end, the availability of an almost-identical plane meant a quick transfer and off it went!!

On the San Diego end, however, Lufthansa personnel very quickly were alerted, and preparations began for shifting some of the cargo, most probably on United flights to one or more of their hubs, to connect onto other Lufthansa flights to Frankfurt, reducing weight, and negating the need to have to re-route any passengers and their luggage. Alliances are wonderful things, aren't they?

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

Oh, heck yeah!! The A340-300 looks like an original DC-8 while the A340-600 - stretched by nearly 40 feet - while the -600 looks like an even-further-stretched DC-8-73!! In fact, it held the record as the longest passenger airplane in the world for a while, until the 747-8 arrived. Take a look at that statistics:

A casual viewer - i.e., a non-airliners.net fanatic - might possibly not notice. They're expecting a big plane, but the A340-300 might look just as big. The casual spotter, however, or someone "more advanced", is going to notice immediately.

My first time seeing one (while spotting at LAX and seeing one fly over the In & Out Burger) I literally couldn't believe how long it was - all the stories of the DC-8 being stretched into infinity came back to me.

Thanks guys! I looked up the dimensions last night and yes, 209' long for the 343 and a whopping 247' for the 346! That will be magnificent to see at SDIA!

The DC-8-61 has always been my favorite airplane and to get to see it regularly when both UA and DL flew her thru Lindbergh in the old days was one of my fondest childhood memories! (Plus the real thrill was getting to hear the engines being started on those DC-8s!) I'm really glad there's another stretch coming to town!

bb

Just some (more) Sunday-morning babbling ...

From and aviation enthusiast's point of view, I would much rather see a variety of foreign flag liveries in SAN than our usual U.S. legacy cx do the heavy lifting here. So even if DL would consider flying to AMS, CDG, LHR, or SEL from here -- which I doubt -- I would much rather get to see KL, AF or KE visiting regularly at SDIA.

And I do think there're some sort of bragging rights to see those legacy foreign flag tails such as BA, JL and LH here (as well as DE and WK) at our itty-bitty airport no matter what the reason they're here. I wouldn't mind if Icelandic, WOW or Thomas Cook added to the variety at SAN but seeing the Union Jack and the Cranes here is somehow extra special.

Of course in reality, if DL flying nonstop to any of those un-served intercontinental destinations were the only way we might see service there, I'd take it in a heartbeat! But again, does anyone really think DL might consider doing any international flying from here? IMHO, no.

bb

SANMAN66 wrote:

I thought that LH was moving all the A346s to MUC? It would really cool if LH did like BA does, use a 77W part of the year, and shift to a 744 the rest of the year. (I can dream can't I?) BTW, BA's Queen of the skies returns to grace the San Diego skies in about two weeks!

Flightaware has loaded that the BA 744 will be operating in two days (Oct 16) on the LHR-SAN route. Do you think that is in error or is it a temporary substitute this week?