Hi all,
Apologies if this was discussed before, I looked through the archive and found no recent discussions.
The Dornier 728 (or longer 928 version) was introduced in 1997 as a 70-110 seat regional jet, with an expected launch date of mid-2003 (though mid-2005 would probably be more realistic), with initial orders from LX, OK, CL, and others. The aircraft was to be outfitted with the GE CF34s (also used on competitors CRJ and ERJ around that time, with the EMB-170/190 in development). However, the company sadly went bankrupt after having only built three prototypes. Wikipedia mentions flight testing was already taking place, but I don't believe this actually happened.
Because this jet would have been rolled out around the same time as the EMB-170/190, was newer than the CRJs and ERJs, as well as possibly having been more favorable to the European market. would this aircraft have fared well if it had seen large-scale production? Would we see a whole different market in Europe in general?
Airbus today must be kicking themselves for not having purchased them back when they went belly-up!
Fun little fact: LH made Dornier narrow the fuselage to prevent LCCs to install six-abreast seating. This caused Dornier to lose its inital 60 orders from LX, something I can definitely imagine being detrimental to the program.
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- bunumuring
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Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
Hey mate,
Great topic starter!
I haven't heard the 'fun little fact' part, and find it a bit strange...
I know that Qantas was looking at the program, at one stage I believe in conjunction (of some kind) with British Airways. Not aware of any other Australian airline (Ansett or any regional) looking at the program.
I agree that Airbus would've been a great partner ... But the Airbus then was a different beast to the CSeries 'white knight' of today!
Cheers,
Bunumuring
Great topic starter!
I haven't heard the 'fun little fact' part, and find it a bit strange...
I know that Qantas was looking at the program, at one stage I believe in conjunction (of some kind) with British Airways. Not aware of any other Australian airline (Ansett or any regional) looking at the program.
I agree that Airbus would've been a great partner ... But the Airbus then was a different beast to the CSeries 'white knight' of today!
Cheers,
Bunumuring
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- aemoreira1981
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Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
It's interesting that Crossair didn't consider the Dornier 728/928 and now (as Swiss International/Global Air Lines) they were the launch customer for another 5-abreast aircraft in the CS100. As for how it would perform compared to the E-Jet...was this to be a rear-engined jet or with wing-mounted engines as the E-Jet is?
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
aemoreira1981 wrote:It's interesting that Crossair didn't consider the Dornier 728/928 and now (as Swiss International/Global Air Lines) they were the launch customer for another 5-abreast aircraft in the CS100. As for how it would perform compared to the E-Jet...was this to be a rear-engined jet or with wing-mounted engines as the E-Jet is?
As the thread starter mentioned, Crossair was actually one of the launch customers for the plane but cancelled in favor of the E170/E195 when the cross section of the Dornier was reduced. The Crossair E170/E195 order turned into a whole other saga itself.
Last edited by Polot on Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
Blankbarcode wrote:Wikipedia mentions flight testing was already taking place, but I don't believe this actually happened.aemoreira1981 wrote:It's interesting that Crossair didn't consider the Dornier 728/928 and now (as Swiss International/Global Air Lines) they were the launch customer for another 5-abreast aircraft in the CS100. As for how it would perform compared to the E-Jet...was this to be a rear-engined jet or with wing-mounted engines as the E-Jet is?
No, the company went bancrupt before flight testing had begun. Roll-out of the first frame according to the German wikipedia was on 21 March 2002, but it never took off.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_728
The first frame is being used as cabin test frame:
http://www.dlr.de/media/Portaldata/1/Re ... _do728.pdf
aemoreira1981 wrote:As for how it would perform compared to the E-Jet...was this to be a rear-engined jet or with wing-mounted engines as the E-Jet is?
Wing-mounted:
https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/air ... v40-10.jpg
http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/728jet/
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
aemoreira1981 wrote:As for how it would perform compared to the E-Jet...was this to be a rear-engined jet or with wing-mounted engines as the E-Jet is?
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
Many people claim that the over-engineered 928 of the time is today's SSJ... similarities are evident...
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
JoKeR wrote:Many people claim that the over-engineered 928 of the time is today's SSJ... similarities are evident...
...but when an almost completely identical design comes out from a Canadian manufacturer, nobody bats an eye...
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- trijetsonly
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Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
aemoreira1981 wrote:It's interesting that Crossair didn't consider the Dornier 728/928 and now (as Swiss International/Global Air Lines) they were the launch customer for another 5-abreast aircraft in the CS100. As for how it would perform compared to the E-Jet...was this to be a rear-engined jet or with wing-mounted engines as the E-Jet is?
Wing-mounted engines:
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
Maybe like the Avro, an excellent aircraft a little bit ahead of its time.
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
william wrote:Maybe like the Avro, an excellent aircraft a little bit ahead of its time.
It was being developed at the same time as the E-jets, hardly ahead of its time.
It was a potentially excellent (we can't actually say it is excellent...the plane never even had a single flight) aircraft being developed by a manufacturer on rocky financial footing.
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
Polot wrote:william wrote:Maybe like the Avro, an excellent aircraft a little bit ahead of its time.
It was being developed at the same time as the E-jets, hardly ahead of its time.
It was a potentially excellent (we can't actually say it is excellent...the plane never even had a single flight) aircraft being developed by a manufacturer on rocky financial footing.
Didn't know that thanks. I remember their turboprop products, which had some success here in the US.
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- CFRPwingALbody
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Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
In the 1990-2003 period nearly all European commercial aircraft went bankrupt. Fokker, Dornier, BAe, Avro, Saab. I think only ATR and Airbus survived. Really a pitty. More companies should have merged into a company like Airbus.
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
VSMUT wrote:JoKeR wrote:Many people claim that the over-engineered 928 of the time is today's SSJ... similarities are evident...
...but when an almost completely identical design comes out from a Canadian manufacturer, nobody bats an eye...
Is the CSeries really "almost completely identical" to the 728/928?
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- CFRPwingALbody
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Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
No, the CS100 is a longer than the Do928, and wingspan of CS is 6m more than the Do929. The Do728/928/528 had a much smaller wing. Possibly the SSJ100 is a bit like the Do928.
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- terrificturk
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Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
aemoreira1981 wrote:It's interesting that Crossair didn't consider the Dornier 728/928 and now (as Swiss International/Global Air Lines) they were the launch customer for another 5-abreast aircraft in the CS100. As for how it would perform compared to the E-Jet...was this to be a rear-engined jet or with wing-mounted engines as the E-Jet is?
At the time, Crossair CEO Suter and then-CEO of EMB Botelho were best buddies... hence, the 135/1 were considered and bought and later the 170/190 was considered as a sole suitable solution...
The ones that preferred the 728/928 were BA, AF, CSA and most of the US regionals.
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- terrificturk
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Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
hOMSaR wrote:VSMUT wrote:JoKeR wrote:Many people claim that the over-engineered 928 of the time is today's SSJ... similarities are evident...
...but when an almost completely identical design comes out from a Canadian manufacturer, nobody bats an eye...
Is the CSeries really "almost completely identical" to the 728/928?
Yes it is, since BBD received the entire blue prints of the 728/928 programme while Dornier was in insolvency administration... being late to the party, BBD shelved the copies until a new generation engine was available....
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- ExMilitaryEng
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Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
hOMSaR wrote:Is the CSeries really "almost completely identical" to the 728/928?
Definitely not.
The fuselage circular forms (and length) were different. Also the slightly stronger/lighter Aluminum – Lithium alloy brought in slightly different drawings (versus conventional) and slightly different industrial methods.
Everything else (wings, engines, avionics…) were totally different.
Basically, the only similar aspects were 5 abreast seating, and underwing engines. (The “BRJ” had already that configuration at the time).
Not so sure what specific competitive industrial secrets Dornier possessed that BBD could have taken advantages of.
Maybe somebody else knows something we don’t? (Please be specific in what was supposedly copied.)
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- Blankbarcode
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Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
CFRPwingALbody wrote:In the 1990-2003 period nearly all European commercial aircraft went bankrupt. Fokker, Dornier, BAe, Avro, Saab. I think only ATR and Airbus survived. Really a pitty. More companies should have merged into a company like Airbus.
Check out how long that tail is! Had to look it up, and it's even crazier on the 528.
http://www.old.shipbucket.com/images.ph ... family.png
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
Blankbarcode wrote:Fun little fact: LH made Dornier narrow the fuselage to prevent LCCs to install six-abreast seating. This caused Dornier to lose its inital 60 orders from LX, something I can definitely imagine being detrimental to the program.
How were LH able to have such influence on Dornier over this ? Were they that big a customer at the time or a large shareholder, what was it ? Sounds awfully similar to how BEA nobbled any potential export orders for the Trident.
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
Did the development costs sink the program?
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
JannEejit wrote:Blankbarcode wrote:Fun little fact: LH made Dornier narrow the fuselage to prevent LCCs to install six-abreast seating. This caused Dornier to lose its inital 60 orders from LX, something I can definitely imagine being detrimental to the program.
How were LH able to have such influence on Dornier over this ? Were they that big a customer at the time or a large shareholder, what was it ? Sounds awfully similar to how BEA nobbled any potential export orders for the Trident.
Because they put their money where their mouth was and provisionally ordered 60+60 very early in the program. This gave them a lot of influence as Dornier was firming up the specs.
ILNFlyer wrote:Did the development costs sink the program?
In the sense that Fairchild Dornier couldn't afford to keep the company and program going, sure. I don't think the development costs were particularity outrageous or significantly over expected budget though. Farichild Dornier was just a small company getting little money in due to the failure of the 328JET, and the 9/11 downturn was the nail in the coffin.
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- oldannyboy
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Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
Dornier made excellent designs of a very high quality - unsurprising really for the German industry one might argue!
It's a great pity that the Do728 could not see the light and enter service. This Dornier failure is one of those instances in which I am wondering whether state intervention should be considered and even encouraged in order to save a prestigious name, and the associated technology and know-how. Same can be said for Fokker and Saab. Fact is, once a manufacturer goes, not only the jobs go, but the know-how, the technology, the capabilities and the industrial supremacy are most likely leaving the country for good, never to be seen ever again.
It's a great pity that the Do728 could not see the light and enter service. This Dornier failure is one of those instances in which I am wondering whether state intervention should be considered and even encouraged in order to save a prestigious name, and the associated technology and know-how. Same can be said for Fokker and Saab. Fact is, once a manufacturer goes, not only the jobs go, but the know-how, the technology, the capabilities and the industrial supremacy are most likely leaving the country for good, never to be seen ever again.
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
I will never pass up the opportunity to type out of the word Oberpfaffenhofen (where it was built) - so thanks to the OP for creating this post!
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- Flying-Tiger
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Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
oldannyboy wrote:It's a great pity that the Do728 could not see the light and enter service. This Dornier failure is one of those instances in which I am wondering whether state intervention should be considered and even encouraged in order to save a prestigious name, and the associated technology and know-how. Same can be said for Fokker and Saab. Fact is, once a manufacturer goes, not only the jobs go, but the know-how, the technology, the capabilities and the industrial supremacy are most likely leaving the country for good, never to be seen ever again.
Indeed, on this opportunity it would have been quite sensible to have the stae of Bavaria or federal government support this project. About 4,000 jobs were lost at that time, plus a high-tech manufacturer with a good order book and promising order book. However, the Holtzmann insolvency shortly before had all attention of the federal govemnment (about 43,000 jobs at stake), leaving little attention.
On the other hand one must admit that FD had certainly issues of their own - scrapping the 428JET in 2000, which was a very simple derivate of the 328JET, which was selling good at that time, and finally made a small family out of the plane, something it lacked all the time. Official reason was lack of engineering ressources, IMO the wrong approach. Order book for the 428JET was okay with 113 orders and options. In my opinion it would have been far more sensible to complete the 428JET and then shift the engineering resources to the 728JET programme. At that time the market was certainly looking for 30/40/50 sea regional jets, which would have at least allowed for an acceptable cash flow and client base being build.
The 728JET itself had a good orderbook with firm orders from GECAS (for 50 units, which would have guaranteed a leasing market), Lufthansa (60), CSA (4 plus 4 leased from GECAS), SolAir (2 firm) plus 28 or 29 Envoy 7, the business jet variation. Additional clients were Bavaria leasing for several 728JET and 928JET. (2+2 and 4+2 if I remember correct, need to look it up). There was even talk about a 1128JET strech. Overall a satiesfying client base, thus a pitty that the project didn´t realize.
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
The fuel burn on the 328JET is just not good at all...(compare it to the ERJs). The 428JET didn't promise anything that would have corrected that. They wouldn't have survived the high fuel prices that arrived in 2004/2005.
Interesting.. had they proceeded with the 728/928, we'd probably be talking about a re-engine / gen-2 program by now...
Interesting.. had they proceeded with the 728/928, we'd probably be talking about a re-engine / gen-2 program by now...
Re: What if the Dornier 728/928 entered production?
ODwyerPW wrote:Interesting.. had they proceeded with the 728/928, we'd probably be talking about a re-engine / gen-2 program by now...
If they had preceded with the 728/928 we would probably be making a ton of comparisons between Fairchild Dornier and BBD/C series. Good product but company unable to break into the market. BBD had successful CRJ-200 program plus the huge business jet side of the company. Embraer had successful ERJ family, decent business jet business, and support of Brazil (even if not directly). Fairchild Dornier had 728/928 and ???
They would have always been in an uphill battle against the CRJ700/900 and E-jets.
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