New year, new thread.

The previous discussion can be found at CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 2)

To recap, Bombardier missed its revised delivery target:

02 JANUARY, 2018 SOURCE: FLIGHT DASHBOARD BY: JON HEMMERDINGER BOSTON
Bombardier closed 2017 without achieving its revised and steeply-reduced CSeries delivery target for the year, having handed over 17 CS100s and CS300s in 2017.

The aircraft include three CS100s and seven CS300s handed over to Swiss, five CS300s delivered to Air Baltic and two CS300s delivered to Korean Air, according to the company and Flight Fleets Analyzer.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... f178015958

Not reported here yet, another LX CS300 has made its first flight on the last day of last year.

There was a comment in the other thread about why certain frames destined for Braathens/BRA were not reassigned.

The answer to that would likely lie in earlier airframes having more issues with them than later airframes. Most airlines would not be overly keen at taking an earlier frame if it meant different inspection intervals and different maintenance procedures.

Amiga500 wrote:

There was a comment in the other thread about why certain frames destined for Braathens/BRA were not reassigned.

The answer to that would likely lie in earlier airframes having more issues with them than later airframes. Most airlines would not be overly keen at taking an earlier frame if it meant different inspection intervals and different maintenance procedures.

So this BBD's version of the terrible teens?

INFINITI329 wrote:

So this BBD's version of the terrible teens?

Yes, only not quite so terrible.

It should be noted all airframes have them. A380, A350, B787, none are exempt from updated parts coming at numerous points along the first few dozen frames.

According to Korean Air, 8 more CS300 aircraft will be delivered in 2018.

KarelXWB wrote:

According to Korean Air, 8 more CS300 aircraft will be delivered in 2018.

So, these aircraft are part of the targeted 40 deliveries in 2018.

Which is the next airline to fly the CSeries?

Amiga500 wrote:

There was a comment in the other thread about why certain frames destined for Braathens/BRA were not reassigned.

The answer to that would likely lie in earlier airframes having more issues with them than later airframes. Most airlines would not be overly keen at taking an earlier frame if it meant different inspection intervals and different maintenance procedures.

I suppose you are referring to the 6 aircraft that are visible in the photo below? At least 3 aircraft in the picture below are the very first production aircraft (MSN 50007, 50008, 50009). Remember that Braathens/BRA was the original launch customer but bailed out when the first aircraft were already in final assembly.

These aircraft are certainly not waiting for engines. It's not clear why Bombardier didn't deliver them to other customers. Perhaps some post certification rework is required, and Bombardier didn't want to spill its resources as it was fully focussend on production ramp-up. Or perhaps Bombardier decided that changing the customer specification was too time consuming, and stored these aircraft until Braathens/BRA is ready to accept delivery.

The 4th aircraft in the picture below is MSN 55017, a CS300 business jet with unknown customer.

The 5th and 6th aircraft in the picture below are MSN 50018 and 50019, two CS100 aircraft for Swiss.


Cseries - YMX by CYUL Plane Spotter, on Flickr

KarelXWB wrote:

Amiga500 wrote:

There was a comment in the other thread about why certain frames destined for Braathens/BRA were not reassigned.

The answer to that would likely lie in earlier airframes having more issues with them than later airframes. Most airlines would not be overly keen at taking an earlier frame if it meant different inspection intervals and different maintenance procedures.

I suppose you are referring to the 6 aircraft that are visible in the photo below? At least 3 aircraft in the picture below are the very first production aircraft (MSN 50007, 50008, 50009). Remember that Braathens/BRA was the original launch customer but bailed out when the first aircraft were already in final assembly.

These aircraft are certainly not waiting for engines. It's not clear why Bombardier didn't deliver them to other customers. Perhaps some post certification rework is required, and Bombardier didn't want to spill its resources as it was fully focussend on production ramp-up. Or perhaps Bombardier decided that changing the customer specification was too time consuming, and stored these aircraft until Braathens/BRA is ready to accept delivery.

The 4th aircraft in the picture below is MSN 55017, a CS300 business jet with unknown customer.

The 5th and 6th aircraft in the picture below are MSN 50018 and 50019, two CS100 aircraft for Swiss.


Cseries - YMX by CYUL Plane Spotter, on Flickr

Also, I understand that there were several CS100 jets that were partially assembled for delivery to Delta that are also put on hold. I suppose potentially they may be delivered to Aero Mexico if a contract is entered into with them? Does anyone know regarding the status of those jets? Seems line Bombardier has many partially assembled jets sitting around that cannot be delivered/completed due to various reasons.

Does anyone know about other stored frames,? At one point frames were stored in the CRJ building. I'm wondering if the production rate was slowed in the last month or two of 2017 or if frames are continuing to pile up.

Also, I wonder how long before the announcement that Aeromexico is taking the early Delta delivery slots.

SteelChair wrote:

Does anyone know about other stored frames,? At one point frames were stored in the CRJ building. I'm wondering if the production rate was slowed in the last month or two of 2017 or if frames are continuing to pile up.

Also, I wonder how long before the announcement that Aeromexico is taking the early Delta delivery slots.

I also wonder how many frames they have in storage and if that is the reason for lower than expected deliveries. There seems to be about 6 frames in outside storage since last winter, most presumably 3 for Braathens, and the others are for.....? In addition, I know that they started production of at least 2-3 frames for Delta that must also be in storage somewhere, however production of these frames started no earlier than late summer/early fall, so these must be on top of the 6 frames in outside storage since last winter.

No idea how many aircraft are inside the hangars currently.

Jetsouth wrote:

I also wonder how many frames they have in storage and if that is the reason for lower than expected deliveries.

Bombardier never increased production rate to 4 aircraft per month that was required to meet its original delivery target. Instead, production rate stayed at 2 aircraft per month during 2017. As such, not many aircraft can be in storage.

3 for Braathens, and the others are for.....?

See my comment above: 3x Braathens (CS100), 2x Swiss (CS100) and 1x VIP (CS300).

KarelXWB wrote:

No idea how many aircraft are inside the hangars currently.

Jetsouth wrote:

I also wonder how many frames they have in storage and if that is the reason for lower than expected deliveries.

Bombardier never increased production rate to 4 aircraft per month that was required to meet its original delivery target. Instead, production rate stayed at 2 aircraft per month during 2017. As such, not many aircraft can be in storage.

3 for Braathens, and the others are for.....?

See my comment above: 3x Braathens (CS100), 2x Swiss (CS100) and 1x VIP (CS300).

Any idea why the 2 CS100's for SWISS are in storage? I thought SWISS needed planes urgently, at least the CS300's. Is it possible they no longer want the CS100's and want these two replaced with CS300's instead?

My guess is Swiss airplanes are waiting for engines. According to Faust, Swiss' next CS300 is one of the first to get an improved engine with redesign combustion chamber.

Seems like that same questions people have been asking for the last year or so with regard to this program: Are the delays the result of engine or Bombardier production issues? The silence of real information from Bombardier is deafening.

Jetsouth wrote:

KarelXWB wrote:

No idea how many aircraft are inside the hangars currently.

Jetsouth wrote:

I also wonder how many frames they have in storage and if that is the reason for lower than expected deliveries.

Bombardier never increased production rate to 4 aircraft per month that was required to meet its original delivery target. Instead, production rate stayed at 2 aircraft per month during 2017. As such, not many aircraft can be in storage.

3 for Braathens, and the others are for.....?

See my comment above: 3x Braathens (CS100), 2x Swiss (CS100) and 1x VIP (CS300).

Any idea why the 2 CS100's for SWISS are in storage? I thought SWISS needed planes urgently, at least the CS300's. Is it possible they no longer want the CS100's and want these two replaced with CS300's instead?

I don't have a source for it; I may have read it on Fliegerfaust a year ago or more ago, but apparently SWISS were aware in late 2016 / early 2017 of the engine delivery delays (due to fan blades), so opt'ed to push the CS100 deliveries to 2018, and get the larger CS300 earlier. The first SWISS CS300 was delivered in May 2017.

If the 3 for Braathens, the 1 for private, the 2 CS100's for SWISS (all in outside storage), and assuming the 3 or so already almost completed for Delta will go to Aero Mexico instead, and one complete/almost complete for each of AirBaltic, SWISS and Korean, that would mean at least 12 frames that could be delivered relatively quickly

SteelChair wrote:

Are the delays the result of engine or Bombardier production issues? The silence of real information from Bombardier is deafening.

Engine availability is the stumbling block right now. Among others, Swiss has delayed deliveries into 2018 to ensure all its future deliveries are equipped with upgraded GTF.

(Also, FWIW, BBD can't physically produce more than 3.5 units / month with current FAL - which is only half completed).

Other challenges must exist in the production ramp up, but PW engines production has been the critical path / bottle neck for the last few months.

Jetsouth wrote:

If the 3 for Braathens, the 1 for private, the 2 CS100's for SWISS (all in outside storage), and assuming the 3 or so already almost completed for Delta will go to Aero Mexico instead, and one complete/almost complete for each of AirBaltic, SWISS and Korean, that would mean at least 12 frames that could be delivered relatively quickly

Braathens delayed deliveries until 2019-20 at the earliest.

Is there any option/plan/possibility for aux fuel tanks on the CSeries to extract greater range?

I heard MSN 50020; 50021; 50022: "On Order, Final Assembly Line" Can anyone confirm this?

Midwestindy wrote:

I heard MSN 50020; 50021; 50022: "On Order, Final Assembly Line" Can anyone confirm this?

55020 was delivered to Swiss on December 20, 2017 while 55021 for Swiss had fist test flight December 31, and 55022 for Korean had first test flight January 25.

Jetsouth wrote:

Now that SWISS, airBaltic and Korean are flying the CSeries, does anyone have an idea which will be the next airline to fly the CSeries, and when? Originally, I suppose, it was going to be Delta, but Delta is delayed until later this year when the plane will be produced in the States.

Now there is the option to deliver canadian built cs100s to delta.

Now that SWISS, airBaltic and Korean are flying the CSeries, does anyone have an idea which will be the next airline to fly the CSeries, and when? Originally, I suppose, it was going to be Delta, but Delta is delayed until later this year when the plane will be produced in the States, and planes destined for Braathens will not be delivered until 2019

yyztpa wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

I heard MSN 50020; 50021; 50022: "On Order, Final Assembly Line" Can anyone confirm this?

55020 was delivered to Swiss on December 20, 2017 while 55021 for Swiss had fist test flight December 31, and 55022 for Korean had first test flight January 25.

Thanks!

MSN 55016, future YL-CSH, has been ferried back to YMX after short term storage in YUL. Aircraft will be prepared for delivery to airBaltic.


Air Baltic C-FOVL (YL-CSH) Bombardier CS300 IMG_3453 by Steve Nardini, on Flickr

First few Delta CS100s will be produced from Mirabel, but only later this year.

Before Boeing's complaint, it was mentioned as early as April. Not possible now - those early slots & engines have been reallocated (and some disappeared due to a slower ramp up).

Myguess is Sept, just a WAG and just MHO

Does anybody know who got those Delta delivery slots? So far only LX, BT and KE got CSeries. So DL end of year ... Whos the next to get the 100 then? (Was supposed to be Delta i guess).

There is that wonderful Google Sheets File, it says Braathens maybe gets three of the earlier planes, which belong to the stored ones I guess. So they could be the next 100 operator.

We know that Swiss wants CS300s (strickly with the "upgraded" GTF version) as early as possible. Not sure if it actually affected the delivery positions.

For AirBaltic, I don't believe they are set up to take a faster pace of delivery (a BT CS3 recently stored in YUL gave us some hints). So no earlier delivery positions here.

Amiga500 wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

So this BBD's version of the terrible teens?

Yes, only not quite so terrible.

It should be noted all airframes have them. A380, A350, B787, none are exempt from updated parts coming at numerous points along the first few dozen frames.

The first 18 months of production samples are always different in many little ways for all airframes. For example, AA received early 738s. Not bad planes, but things are found out in service to improve aircraft. A doubler here, a different bracket there, a better routing of a tube or harness is found. This results in lower maintenance costs, better fatigue life, and conformity to the major production standard.

There is a reason launch discounts are required. There is a reason DL waited for later build examples, for they received deep discounts without having to deal with teething issues (and could delay MD-80 retirements, so they had the luxury of time.) I believe one reason DL is taking CS100 first is to let the CS300 mature.

It takes time for problems to be found. It takes time to find a good solution to the issue. Then it takes time to make the new parts. Every aircraft goes through this. I used the 738 as an example. Later engines had some different positioned bits to reduce vibration. The EIS CFM-56-7 had bad fan blades that weren't lasting very long delaying delivery of the type due to a shortage of fans. Does anyone remember that?

What Bombardier needs is sales for ancillary revenue.

Lightsaber

DLHAM wrote:

Does anybody know who got those Delta delivery slots? So far only LX, BT and KE got CSeries. So DL end of year ... Whos the next to get the 100 then? (Was supposed to be Delta i guess).

There is that wonderful Google Sheets File, it says Braathens maybe gets three of the earlier planes, which belong to the stored ones I guess. So they could be the next 100 operator.

Air Tanzania should get some CS300 later this year, see https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ment-plans

What is the BBD guidance for2018 C series aircraft dows anyone know? Thanks

KarelXWB wrote:

DLHAM wrote:

Does anybody know who got those Delta delivery slots? So far only LX, BT and KE got CSeries. So DL end of year ... Whos the next to get the 100 then? (Was supposed to be Delta i guess).

There is that wonderful Google Sheets File, it says Braathens maybe gets three of the earlier planes, which belong to the stored ones I guess. So they could be the next 100 operator.

Air Tanzania should get some CS300 later this year, see https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ment-plans

On a side note Air Tanzania also have a 787 on order for delivery around the time of the C-series, fleet size will double in A/C numbers across 2 months

According to the abcdlist website, 55016 delivered today (February 3) to airBaltic, but I don't see YL-CSH flying to RIX.

First flight was November 30, so a VERY long time from first flight to delivery. Cabin completion or engine?

SteelChair wrote:

According to the abcdlist website, 55016 delivered today (February 3) to airBaltic, but I don't see YL-CSH flying to RIX.

First flight was November 30, so a VERY long time from first flight to delivery. Cabin completion or engine?

airBaltic has pushed back some deliveries, see http://www.delfi.lv/bizness/transports- ... d=49599157

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znYEkmAK-Jg

Not a production clip however it's certainly a great promotional video. Swiss Air has released a video promoting their CS300 in an amazing air show with the Patrouille Suisse.

KarelXWB wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

According to the abcdlist website, 55016 delivered today (February 3) to airBaltic, but I don't see YL-CSH flying to RIX.

First flight was November 30, so a VERY long time from first flight to delivery. Cabin completion or engine?

airBaltic has pushed back some deliveries, see http://www.delfi.lv/bizness/transports- ... d=49599157

When I put that link through Google translate, it sounds as if delays for deliveries (aircraft not ready). Air Baltic pushing back implies the airline wants the aircraft later... I know, a nitpick...

I hope the engines are going through on schedule.

LIghtsaber

What are the latest projections for aircraft deliveries this year. At this rate they will be lucky to hit 30. If Baltic pushes back some deliveries that may not help.

Two questions: One, what's the reason for all the delays? Is it BBD, PW or something else?

Two, which other airlines will be getting their CSeries this year? I know DL was supposed to, but with all the delays due to the possible tariff I don't know now. Is there any other operator for this year?

Air Tanzania should get 2 aircaft this year.

The latest guidance I saw for 2018 was 40 deliveries. Seems unlikely that they will make it given past performance.

No one seems to know the REAL reson for the continued low production rate/non performance. There are known issues with deliveries of engines that have all the latest modifications and there are also known issues with cabin integration/completion, but the extent to which either issue (or other issues) is contributing to the delays, no one seems to kow.

airBaltic says CSeries engine availability is now better.

Air Baltic CEO Martin Gauss says there is a now a sufficient supply of Pratt & Whitney PW1500G spare engines as the airline continues to have to replace powerplants on wing earlier than planned.

Article from Aviation Week:

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... y-improved

http://aviationweek.com/singapore-airsh ... bombardier
From the article:

SINGAPORE–Bombardier and Airbus could have a final assembly line in the U.S. up and running within a year of a go-ahead, but it remains undecided whether C Series jets ordered by Delta Air Lines will be produced there or in Canada, says Colin Bole, senior vice president for commercial at Bombardier Commercial Aircraft.

While the two airframers are limited in what information they can share before Airbus’ deal to acquire a controlling stake in the C Series program wins regulatory approval, integration with Airbus is now the “top priority,” says Bole. “You can do ‘as if’ planning as long as there is nothing exchanged of a sensitive commercial nature,” Bole told Aviation Week on the sidelines of the Singapore Airshow.

Bole says it hasn’t been decided if Delta will revert to the original plan to take jets built in Canada, but confirmed that the initial delivery date of April will not be met. “When we deliver to Delta will have a significant bearing on what 2019 [output] looks like,” he says. Bombardier plans to produce 40 C Series jet in 2018.

nikeson13 wrote:

http://aviationweek.com/singapore-airshow-2018/airbus-integration-top-priority-bombardier
From the article:

SINGAPORE–Bombardier and Airbus could have a final assembly line in the U.S. up and running within a year of a go-ahead, but it remains undecided whether C Series jets ordered by Delta Air Lines will be produced there or in Canada, says Colin Bole, senior vice president for commercial at Bombardier Commercial Aircraft.

While the two airframers are limited in what information they can share before Airbus’ deal to acquire a controlling stake in the C Series program wins regulatory approval, integration with Airbus is now the “top priority,” says Bole. “You can do ‘as if’ planning as long as there is nothing exchanged of a sensitive commercial nature,” Bole told Aviation Week on the sidelines of the Singapore Airshow....

Doubt a US assembly facility will ever happen if there is no more dumping claims against C-Series. Makes no sense to have two lines within about 1000 miles of each other, two hours flying time, for such a low rate of C-Series production...for now it would be a factory just for Delta.

I still wonder if this Airbus/Bombardier alliance will last for the long term anyhow....an Airbus/Bombardier assembly facility would require sensitive, yet awkward intellectual property agreements. The Canadian government, with large investment in Bombardier, may not go for it.

The dumping claim isn't completely-over yet, and Boeing is going to keep at it. It doesn't cost all that much to keep lawyers very busy, and it's a continued distraction and thorn in the side of BBD. It would be stupid of them to ditch the US assembly line or Airbus tie-up this early. Airbus is going to help market and support that jet and give it legitimacy in a way that BBD could never do on its own. But, as I said the moment the decision came out, the Canadian unions and others would press immediately for the elimination of the US line. Of course -- they have to. Doesn't mean it's smart.

QuarkFly wrote:

I still wonder if this Airbus/Bombardier alliance will last for the long term anyhow....an Airbus/Bombardier assembly facility would require sensitive, yet awkward intellectual property agreements. The Canadian government, with large investment in Bombardier, may not go for it.

The location of manufacturing is a non-issue. As part of the agreement, Bombardier handed over to Airbus perpetual rights to use any CSeries related patents/intellectual property for free on other/future Airbus aircrafts. Bombardier gave away the baby with the bathwater, there is nothing left for Airbus to take from Bombardier even if they wanted to.

Doubt a US assembly facility will ever happen if there is no more dumping claims against C-Series. Makes no sense to have two lines within about 1000 miles of each other, two hours flying time, for such a low rate of C-Series production...for now it would be a factory just for Delta.

I agree and hence why I have stated in the past that the Mobile FAL is a bluff - which has worked brilliantly so far. Of course Airbus will keep the idea of Mobile floating around, to make sure the decision does not get reverted, but at 40 a/c per year there is no business point in a 2nd FAL (political point is another issue).