Airbus A220 (CSeries) Production/Delivery Thread 2018

Skywatcher · Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:32 pm

2 delivered so far in Sept.

2 ready to go (sn 35 x 8 flights already/sn 41 x 4 flights already).

SteelChair · Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:51 pm

55040 delivered yester, that was the second September delivery.

Can they hold to 3/month until the rush of Delta deliveries start?

sergegva · Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:30 pm

The fate of the last two CS100 for Swiss still seems very misty to me.

The official version, which dates from more than a year ago, is that due to multiple delivery delays, the airline gave priority to CS300's deliveries. But rumours on this topic mention that these two aircraft may suffer from the "terrible teen" syndrome and may never be delivered...

So, which scenario is most likely?

>Will Swiss simply receive the 2 aircraft currently stored after the last CS300 / A220-300 has been delivered? (which means early 2019)?
>Will they receive 2 brand new CS-100, more or less same as the ones Delta will receive?
>Will they convert them from A220-100 to A220-300? (they already convert twice in that direction. First order was 20x CS100 and 10x CS300, right)?
>Will they simply drop this order and end with 28 aircraft instead of 30?

HBChris · Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:30 pm

According to Sylvain Faust, who is typically very well informed about CSeries production, Airbus will probably scrap MSN 50007, 50008 and 50009 that have been parked without engines for over 2 years. These are some of the earliest production aircraft after the flight test fleet, but apparently it would take a serious effort to get them to current production standards.

However the two Swiss birds you mentioned (MSN 50018 and 50019) are a bit younger and are actually newer than all other Swiss CS100 (MSN 50010 to 50017). So personally I don't see why they would require so much changes as they should fit right into Swiss's CS100 fleet. Of course they need to be finished and they might need to repair some damage from being exposed to the weather for 2 years.

Faust's article says that Swiss will take delivery of these a/c and while it's not a 100% clear I read it as MSN 50018 is already being worked on while 50019 is still waiting outside.

VV · Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:41 pm

The last several comments intrigue me a little bit.

Haven't they reached a stable production standard now, after more than two years from EIS?
If the production standard is not stabilized yet then I understand why the production rate is so slow.
If it is the case then perhaps the very first thing that needs to be done is to freeze the production standard before ramping-up.

bspc · Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:12 pm

VV wrote:
The last several comments intrigue me a little bit.

Haven't they reached a stable production standard now, after more than two years from EIS?
If the production standard is not stabilized yet then I understand why the production rate is so slow.
If it is the case then perhaps the very first thing that needs to be done is to freeze the production standard before ramping-up.

Each Aircraft needs at least 6-8 Test Flights. So I don't think anything is stable yet unfortunately.

SteelChair · Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:49 am

In service experience has been very, very good according to all that I have read. Perhaps an intense focus on quality has driven the slow ramp up and 6-8 post production flights.

They've been at 3 deliveries/mo for the last 4-5 months. I'm guessing that the production out of FAL1 is probably at 4-4.5/month as ramp up continues.

dampfnudel · Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:52 am

Eurowingsa320 wrote:
First delta a220-100 rollout

That looks great. Looking forward to my first flight on a A220.

VV · Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:28 am

Quote with emphasis added.

SteelChair wrote:
In service experience has been very, very good according to all that I have read. Perhaps an intense focus on quality has driven the slow ramp up and 6-8 post production flights.

They've been at 3 deliveries/mo for the last 4-5 months. I'm guessing that the production out of FAL1 is probably at 4-4.5/month as ramp up continues.

Doesn't "improving quality" mean that the production standard is not fully achieved? From the comment above I received a conflicting information.

I really hope the delivery pace increases with the right quality. The A220 is a good aircraft for the market it is designed for, there is no doubt about it. It would be nice if customers can take delivery of the aircraft sooner.

In comment #404 HBChris mentions an article written by Sylvain Faust about a possible scrapping of three flight test articles that have been waiting for delivery since more than two years. If it is true then it is a very interesting piece of information because it would indicate a shift in priorities. If the rumor is correct then why wasn't it done earlier?

keesje · Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:44 am

VV wrote:
In comment #404 HBChris mentions an article written by Sylvain Faust about a possible scrapping of three flight test articles that have been waiting for delivery since more than two years. If it is true then it is a very interesting piece of information because it would indicate a shift in priorities. If the rumor is correct then why wasn't it done earlier?

That can be a financial thing. Writing off aircraft that were booked for customers represents significant value on the company's balance. A burden they might have been avoiding in the earlier stage, before the JV.

VV · Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:22 am

keesje wrote:
VV wrote:
In comment #404 HBChris mentions an article written by Sylvain Faust about a possible scrapping of three flight test articles that have been waiting for delivery since more than two years. If it is true then it is a very interesting piece of information because it would indicate a shift in priorities. If the rumor is correct then why wasn't it done earlier?

That can be a financial thing. Writing off aircraft that were booked for customers represents significant value on the company's balance. A burden they might have been avoiding in the earlier stage, before the JV.

It may be the case. I really need to examine the case calmly.

I thought SCALP started with a healthy balance sheet, O mean all the dev cost was already written off back in 2015 or so.

Those aircraft are probably recorded as asset (or is it inventory?) at present. I do not know the consequence of writing them off now.

In the case of the 787, they recategorized three airframes as R&D and it allowed Boeing to get 1.2 billion lower tax when they were making a lot of profit.

Is CSALP making profit today? I hope it is the case. Or perhaps they can carry the loss of asset to a future accounting period. I don't know. I will try to dig more and ask friends who know a bit about accounting.

The way the initiator of the rumor wrote it seems to indicate a kind of cannibalisation in order to reduce costs. Are they at that point desperate from cash availability perspective?

In any case the rumored scrapping of those aircraft is very interesting if confirmed.

keesje · Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:53 am

VV wrote:

Is CSALP making profit today? I hope it is the case. Or perhaps they can carry the loss of asset to a future accounting period. I don't know. I will try to dig more and ask friends who know a bit about accounting.

That would be highly surprising to me, and probably irrelevant. The goals of CSALP and it succession are really longer term and strategic. Getting a significant share of the market segment, streamlining the Mobile/ Maribel assembly and supply chain, increasing production to at least 10 a month and develop further derivatives. I think a time window of at least 5 years.

Writing off $200mln is a lot, even for Airbus or Boeing, but in the grand scheme of things it probably is foreseen and accepted in the longer term A220 business case. Maybe it's the financial muscle required to make expensive projects like the CS/A220 successful these days, meanwhile .. https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/companies/2018-09-26-airbus-sends-team-to-china-to-shore-up-18bn-jet-order/

A picture that would have been insane rubbish on some blogs only a few years ago.

Skywatcher · Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:21 pm

I don't think "writing off" the 3 airframes makes any difference. It would have zero cash flow effect which is what really matters. They may be cannibalizing parts which would have a favourable cash flow effect however.

wrongwayup · Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:46 pm

VV wrote:
Doesn't "improving quality" mean that the production standard is not fully achieved?

The appropriate level of production quality is achieved after rework, which slows the schedule.

lightsaber · Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:49 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
VV wrote:
Doesn't "improving quality" mean that the production standard is not fully achieved?

The appropriate level of production quality is achieved after rework, which slows the schedule.

Rework is also expensive (more people hours and often scrapping almost good parts).

Lightsaber

SteelChair · Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:52 pm

Rework is to be expected on a new airplane. Exhibit one: the Boeing 787.

It would be interesting to know about how the amount of rework is trending.. ...but the aviation press is asleep at the switch again.

VV · Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:53 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I don't think "writing off" the 3 airframes makes any difference. It would have zero cash flow effect which is what really matters. They may be cannibalizing parts which would have a favourable cash flow effect however.

I fully agree with the above.

In addition, if they write 40 millions off, perhaps they can get a tax return or reduce corporate tax next year, say of 10 millions. It could become a positive cash flow.

VV · Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:55 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Rework is to be expected on a new airplane. Exhibit one: the Boeing 787.

It would be interesting to know about how the amount of rework is trending.. ...but the aviation press is asleep at the switch again.

If you have a stable production standard and if parts come in on time, there's no need for rework.

yyztpa · Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:49 pm

VV wrote:
Quote with emphasis added.

SteelChair wrote:
In comment #404 HBChris mentions an article written by Sylvain Faust about a possible scrapping of three flight test articles that have been waiting for delivery since more than two years. If it is true then it is a very interesting piece of information because it would indicate a shift in priorities. If the rumor is correct then why wasn't it done earlier?

Perhaps because nobody wants to buy them at the price they were being offered and the value of scrap and parts recovery is better than the more current realization for what they can be sold for.

SteelChair · Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:16 pm

yyztpa wrote:
VV wrote:
Quote with emphasis added.

SteelChair wrote:
In comment #404 HBChris mentions an article written by Sylvain Faust about a possible scrapping of three flight test articles that have been waiting for delivery since more than two years. If it is true then it is a very interesting piece of information because it would indicate a shift in priorities. If the rumor is correct then why wasn't it done earlier?

Perhaps because nobody wants to buy them at the price they were being offered and the value of scrap and parts recovery is better than the more current realization for what they can be sold for.

This post was edited incorrectly. I did not make that statement, it was not my post

9252fly · Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:07 pm

Are the wings on the 3 frames removable and can they be installed on new builds. If I'm correct the wings are carbon fiber?

bspc · Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:31 am

3rd one got Delivered today - 55035 Korean Air Lines

https://a320archive.com/msn/55035

TW870 · Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:55 pm

Come on airliners.net. No one got a picture of the first Delta A220 first flight?

In fact I am not sure anyone did - as I haven't seen one anywhere yet. But according to the points guy and a number of other sources, the airplane that will become N101DU flew for the first time on October 3rd.

caribb · Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:04 pm

We had bad Weather here in Montreal this morning. I read on Twitter the first flight is to be rescheduled

Jetsouth · Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:57 pm

So the first Delta A220 flight has not happened yet?

777Mech · Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:23 pm

TW870 wrote:
Come on airliners.net. No one got a picture of the first Delta A220 first flight?

In fact I am not sure anyone did - as I haven't seen one anywhere yet. But according to the points guy and a number of other sources, the airplane that will become N101DU flew for the first time on October 3rd.

Delivery is scheduled for 10/26. 1st of 4 this year.

TW870 · Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:46 pm

777Mech wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Come on airliners.net. No one got a picture of the first Delta A220 first flight?

In fact I am not sure anyone did - as I haven't seen one anywhere yet. But according to the points guy and a number of other sources, the airplane that will become N101DU flew for the first time on October 3rd.

Delivery is scheduled for 10/26. 1st of 4 this year.

Thanks so much for the update. When is the estimated entry into service? January or so?

Skywatcher · Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:58 am

I get the sense that this endeavor is finally slowly but surely improving. There hasn't been a step backwards for months which is a nice change. Man oh man it's been a struggle to get to this point. The cash burn must be slowing down.

bspc · Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:13 am

Jetsouth wrote:
So the first Delta A220 flight has not happened yet?

Nope, not yet. Perhaps they re waiting for better weather for pictures.

Meanwhile A220-300, Swiss, C-FOYB, HB-JCR (MSN 55044) did its First Flight today - https://a320archive.com/msn/55044

777Mech · Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:55 am

TW870 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Come on airliners.net. No one got a picture of the first Delta A220 first flight?

In fact I am not sure anyone did - as I haven't seen one anywhere yet. But according to the points guy and a number of other sources, the airplane that will become N101DU flew for the first time on October 3rd.

Delivery is scheduled for 10/26. 1st of 4 this year.

Thanks so much for the update. When is the estimated entry into service? January or so?

Early indications is the first revenue service will be LGA-DFW on February 1st.

There will be some non revenue training flights from ATL-HSV/CVG/TLH/AGS/CAE as well between delivery and first revenue service.

Amiga500 · Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:50 am

VV wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Rework is to be expected on a new airplane. Exhibit one: the Boeing 787.

It would be interesting to know about how the amount of rework is trending.. ...but the aviation press is asleep at the switch again.

If you have a stable production standard and if parts come in on time, there's no need for rework.

There is still part optimisation going on all the time as service lives are pushed up, inspection intervals lengthened, weight taken out, production costs lessened.

Bombardier took an awful lot of short cuts to get CSeries into production in some shape or form, they are still ironing out the kinks.

Most of the big changes should have been through the system by now, but there are still others that are WIP.

WayexTDI · Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:52 pm

VV wrote:
In comment #404 HBChris mentions an article written by Sylvain Faust about a possible scrapping of three flight test articles that have been waiting for delivery since more than two years. If it is true then it is a very interesting piece of information because it would indicate a shift in priorities. If the rumor is correct then why wasn't it done earlier?

No, the article from Sylvain Faust mentions the aircraft to be scrapped are MSN's 50007, 50008 & 50009 (which would correspond to Production Aircraft #1 through 3).
The "flight test articles" (Flight Test Vehicles - FTV - as Bombardier called them, basically the prototypes and pre-series) were MSN's 50001 through 50005:

First, something I've wrote about a few times and also Normand Hamel (see "Normand's Run-Up Pad" section), I mean the A220-100 (CS100) MSN 50007, 50008 and 50009...

Those are early production CSeries aircraft built after "Production 1, aka P1" aircraft (MSN 50006). The first 5 (i.e. 50001 – 50005) are aircraft built for the testing and certification process of the CSeries (now A220), called FTVs (FTV1 to FTV5, FTV stands for "Flight Test Vehicle"). The first "official" production aircraft was the 6th CS100 (called A220-100 by Airbus) (MSN 50006).

ExMilitaryEng · Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:36 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
There is still part optimisation going on all the time as service lives are pushed up, inspection intervals lengthened, weight taken out, production costs lessened.

I heard exactly the same thing from a fellow Eng working in Mirabel some months ago, particularly about further saving weight and maintenance / manufacturing costs. (They did not have the $ / time to acheive those before certification)

So indeed, there are continual / considerable improvements coming in. (Plus future PW PIPs...).

In regards to the already exeptional CSeries performance, it's quite amazing if you ask me.

bspc · Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:45 pm

A220-300, Swiss, C-FOYB, HB-JCR (MSN 55044) did its 2nd & 3rd Flight today - https://a320archive.com/msn/55044

A220-300, Air Baltic, C-FOVP, YL- (MSN 55041) did its 5th flight today - https://a320archive.com/msn/55041

BravoEchoNov · Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:25 pm

Delta's first A220 is currently conducting its first flight as BBA510.

Link: https://www.flightradar24.com/BBA510/1e1ecaf4
Story: https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/deltas- ... es-flight/

TropicalSky · Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:50 pm

Can't wait to sit in one of these....should be interesting to see how IFE works and how comfortable it really is...

BravoEchoNov wrote:
Delta's first A220 is currently conducting its first flight as BBA510.

Link: https://www.flightradar24.com/BBA510/1e1ecaf4
Story: https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/deltas- ... es-flight/

tlecam · Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:08 pm

Delta posted some photos. https://news.delta.com/delta-s-first-a2 ... est-flight

SteelChair · Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:17 pm

There is weeping in Seattle and Chicago.

TropicalSky · Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:02 pm

Not sure about Chicago but definitely in Seattle.....this aircraft can open a lot of options in that city...but the biggest change will be in Laguardia and Boston where they seem to want to build a trans Atlantic jumping point....interesting times ahead

SteelChair wrote:
There is weeping in Seattle and Chicago.

MSPNWA · Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:13 pm

SteelChair wrote:
There is weeping in Seattle and Chicago.

Unless Boeing restarts the legal process once the aircraft is officially imported. They may be anxiously waiting in Seattle.

AWY · Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:51 pm

Video of Delta's first cs1/a220: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql-CyJWpnOM

The engines are so quiet that I initially thought the video had no audio (either that or the mic is really bad).

SteelChair · Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:28 pm

What a fantastic video. The long awaited replacement for the DC9 (Delta was launch customer and first into service in 1965 IIRC) series is finally here. I doubt it will last over 50 years in service though, hopefully there will be more rapid technological advancement in the future.

And no, I doubt that Boeing has another legal challenge ready to file vis a vis trade. Wishful thinking...

LupineChemist · Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:04 am

TropicalSky wrote:
Not sure about Chicago but definitely in Seattle.....this aircraft can open a lot of options in that city...but the biggest change will be in Laguardia and Boston where they seem to want to build a trans Atlantic jumping point....interesting times ahead

SteelChair wrote:
There is weeping in Seattle and Chicago.

It's more about a certain litigious airframe manufacturer that's based in those cities.

uta999 · Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:29 am

Look at the interactive A220-300 range map on the Airbus website, by dragging the cursor.

https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/passeng ... 0-300.html

5920km or 3675 miles.

BobMUC · Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:45 am

AWY wrote:
Video of Delta's first cs1/a220: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql-CyJWpnOM

The engines are so quiet that I initially thought the video had no audio (either that or the mic is really bad).

Airbus has released a video too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-1bTb1UIcM

SteelChair · Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:09 pm

uta999 wrote:
Look at the interactive A220-300 range map on the Airbus website, by dragging the cursor.

https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/passeng ... 0-300.html

5920km or 3675 miles.

I love those interactive range charts but have always found them to be a little optimistic. No A vs B here, Boeing overstates their range capabilities also imho.

LSZH34 · Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:27 pm

What‘s holding BBD/Airbus back from delivering more than 1 frame per month? Is the PW engine supply chain still an issue?

OA940 · Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:35 pm

Do we know a timeline on Egyptair's first -300? They are supposed to be delivered from November, but I haven't heard anything in a while.

Fixinthe757 · Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:43 pm

Work has begun on the mapping of the assembly plant here in Mobile (for all you naysayers about it not being here). Barricades have been put into place on MAE property and soon the excavating will begin.

lightsaber · Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:10 pm

SteelChair wrote:
uta999 wrote:
Look at the interactive A220-300 range map on the Airbus website, by dragging the cursor.

https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/passeng ... 0-300.html

5920km or 3675 miles.

I love those interactive range charts but have always found them to be a little optimistic. No A vs B here, Boeing overstates their range capabilities also imho.

I concur. Those ranges are not with enough margin, subtract 15% IMHO. More for ULCC.

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