El Al will launch flights to San Francisco Q4 2018

bagoldex · Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:51 am

ADrum23 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

What does that have to do with ORD not having a flight to TLV?

Not enough higher-yielding traffic, unlike SFO. United has that all to itself on SFO and now LY wants some of it back.

Still not understanding this. Because ORD has a lot of B6 connecting traffic at JFK to LY to TLV, they don’t need a direct flight from ORD?

That's basically the logic. For example, JetBlue routes a lot of traffic from Detroit on to Emirates' BOS-DXB flight but Detroit's probably not next in line for service from Emirates. With its recent adds, El Al seems to be going after leading cities for life sciences and high-tech, hence Boston and San Francisco.

77H · Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:04 am

yochai wrote:
tlvflyguy wrote:
yochai wrote:
I think El Al can do great on the SFO flight, as they have been doing with the new MIA flight (Over 90% LF for a new route is outstanding, especially the front of the plane is almost always full).

I don't think it's quite apples to apples.
TLV-MIA is LY-exclusive. At SFO they have to compete with the UA hub and with a daily frequency that has been running for quite some time.
And, combined with the fact that it is even longer than MIA, every seat (and its yield) on that plane will matter for the bottom line.
Also, MIA is a larger market than SFO to begin with, and competing with UA for SFO will likely hurt the profits compared to MIA.

Of course - I'm rooting for LY, if only for more competitive rates on both carriers. Good luck!

Yes you are right, but seeing how often UA has to leave cargo and standby pax behind in TLV, and with so many pax connecting everyday on various European airlines, I'm sure there's room for another 3-4 weekly frequencies on this route. Apparently TLV-SFO is a very big market and LY has studied this market for a few years now to launch it even with UA flying it daily.

Except UA or any other airline doesn't care how many stand bys are left behind as they do not bring in any revenue. It's certainly not a business case for another airline to enter the market.

As for cargo, UA also operates TLV-EWR. They can and do route cargo cut due to weight restrictions via EWR to SFO.

77H

airportlover · Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:15 pm

I think El Al adding SFO-TLV is nice to hear, but it may not work too well. If the frequency is 3x weekly, that can't compete against United. Neither can the premium cabin. SFO is filled with United/Star loyalists, and they will choose United every time. I actually think that UA offers a great product on SFO-TLV and one of the two daily frequencies of EWR-TLV. ORD, PHL, IAD, or even YUL would have made more sense because they have larger Jewish populations and more leisure travelers to Israel. Even adding more frequencies to NYC would have made more sense as those flights are always full on all airlines. United will retain the vast majority of the business community, and LY will have to sell dirt cheap fares to tourists. The only chance they have is gaining many TLV-originating travelers, but they probably prefer United as well.

georgiabill · Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:42 pm

yochai, do you think there is any chance of LY ordering 77W'S or 77X'S for higher demand routes like TLV-JFK-TLV, TLV-LHR-TLV or would 787-10'S be more likely for higher demand routes?

aa87 · Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:24 pm

Just one comment not specific to SFO route. With all the negative factors re LY -- all legitimate, including no real FF alliances (I actually opened QF account to bank LY miles and later use on AA), no hubs, no Fri-Sat flights etc. -- for some and perhaps many people like me, their "insane" or "ridiculous" security remains a big positive, not a negative. With the tremendous growth in global commercial aviation, proliferation of ULCCs, incredible overall safety stats, etc., we tend to put out of our minds there are still a lot of bad guys of all stripes who are thinking day and night how to bring down pax planes. And not just LYs ... I can't opine on adequacy of security on UA or anyone else, the only thing publicly known for certain is LY has layers and depth of security that go well beyond those of any other airline. Many critics find it to be unreasonable, even obnoxious or racist, but no LY plane has been bombed or successfully hijacked in more than 50 years. The only successful attacks have been on the ground (Rome, Athens, LAX). Just making a mention ...

neomax · Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:41 pm

aa87 wrote:
Just one comment not specific to SFO route. With all the negative factors re LY -- all legitimate, including no real FF alliances (I actually opened QF account to bank LY miles and later use on AA), no hubs, no Fri-Sat flights etc. -- for some and perhaps many people like me, their "insane" or "ridiculous" security remains a big positive, not a negative. With the tremendous growth in global commercial aviation, proliferation of ULCCs, incredible overall safety stats, etc., we tend to put out of our minds there are still a lot of bad guys of all stripes who are thinking day and night how to bring down pax planes. And not just LYs ... I can't opine on adequacy of security on UA or anyone else, the only thing publicly known for certain is LY has layers and depth of security that go well beyond those of any other airline. Many critics find it to be unreasonable, even obnoxious or racist, but no LY plane has been bombed or successfully hijacked in more than 50 years. The only successful attacks have been on the ground (Rome, Athens, LAX). Just making a mention ...

It’s not exactly like UA’s been having any trouble with this... :confused:

LAXintl · Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:14 pm

Lets not forget this would be a resumption of SFO.

El Al served SFO late 90s via JFK using North American Airlines.

aa87 · Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:10 pm

it’s not exactly like UA’s been having any trouble with this

No and G-d willing/Inshallah they and every other carrier never will again. But LY security is simply higher level and has more layers, including reinforced cargo holds in case a bomb does slip by somehow, and the only carrier in the world with anti-missile defenses. All discounted until G-d forbid there's another Metrojedt 9268, or a NW253 or AA63 with a competent terrorist, or Arkia 582 with something better than a SA-7.

DaveFly · Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:42 pm

If I can add two-cents, I travel EWR-TLV fairly often. United used to be my first choice, but El Al (which had a well-deserved reputation for poor service) has really stepped up its game in the last two years. The flight attendants are now friendly and accommodating, the food is satisfactory. The IFE on the 747/777 is still pretty bad, but I’ve found myself more comfortable on El Al than United in recent years. And I’m comfortable with their security measures too, all politics aside. El Al isn’t looking for ‘Jewish’ destinations — they’re looking for high-tech cities to connect with their high-tech, medical, and pharmaceutical industries. Jewish tourism to Israel is only 1/3 of total tourism — Christian tourism is 2/3.

Freshside3 · Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:10 am

ADrum23 wrote:
Fastphilly wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
Absolutely shocked that SFO got this ahead of ORD. What happened? I thought Chicago was on El Al's radar?

I can't believe ORD-TLV doesn't exist anywhere, perhaps UA launches it soon? Chicago has a large Jewish population and a large O&D market, so it's not like it can't support a flight to TLV.

Sure ORD can support a flight, but at a profit? Or should I say at a higher profit than SFO? I’m guessing not.

Just curious, does San Francisco have a higher Jewish population than Chicago?

I'm sure UA could do ORD-TLV and route connecting traffic onto it.

ORD definitely has a larger Jewish population than SFO.......not by all that much, but it's still more than SFO.

But also the fact that neither AA nor UA have put on ORD-ATH, it could be a connection option for this untapped market. In fact, TLV does have flights, on various carriers, to SKG, RHO and other of the secondary Greek airports.

acentauri · Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:24 am

Freshside3 wrote:
ORD definitely has a larger Jewish population than SFO.......not by all that much, but it's still more than SFO...........

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/lar ... ted-states

chicawgo · Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:36 am

acentauri wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
ORD definitely has a larger Jewish population than SFO.......not by all that much, but it's still more than SFO...........

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/lar ... ted-states

Not sure where this source data comes from. Others have SFO much lower. It’s hard to pinpoint Jewish populations since it can be very loosely attributed. Many are culturally/ethnically Jewish but don’t practice, etc.

aa87 · Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:06 am

chicawgo wrote:
acentauri wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
ORD definitely has a larger Jewish population than SFO.......not by all that much, but it's still more than SFO...........

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/lar ... ted-states

Not sure where this source data comes from. Others have SFO much lower. It’s hard to pinpoint Jewish populations since it can be very loosely attributed. Many are culturally/ethnically Jewish but don’t practice, etc.

As another poster said, Jewish population has become far less of a driver for LY market analysis. Christian tourism plus many connections should have supported DL's ATL-TLV but, surprisingly to me, it didn't last. Same w AA at PHL. IAD/BWI continues to be the first or second largest combined Jewish US metro market w no non-stops to TLV from any carrier, and there's obviously a reason, or several of them. Carrier choices are not just a function of demand, its how much demand, how sustainable, plus how much profit, vs. other potential routes for the same A/C. As an example I like, BA never started Austin until the 787s came online. Clearly there was a demand but at least for BA, economics didn't work pre-787.

So, ORD, IAD, BWI, CLE, DFW, etc. will get TLV if and when LY, UA or AA decide the economics are sufficiently attractive. THat simple. Our arm chair analysis of market populations is fun but irrelevant.

mmahpeel · Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:31 am

Interesting move by LY.

Seeing that SFO-TLV on UA is going to the 77W in May, why isn't LY making LAX-TLV daily instead?

LAXintl · Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:45 am

mmahpeel wrote:
why isn't LY making LAX-TLV daily instead?

LY at best can only operate 6x weekly. But more practically based on current LAX timings of flight only 5 days is possible to observe shabbat which is what LY is planning for the summer anyhow.

piedmontf284000 · Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:04 am

The mayor of Chicago has asked LY repeatedly to fly into ORD. So far, he has been rebuked each and every time. I just don't see LY starting service to ORD. It would not be a money maker without having some interline agreement with another airline. El Al CEO David Maimon stated just that...

“In the past Chicago was high on our list, but unfortunately, since the merger of American Airlines and US Airways, there has been a major change in our commercial relationship whereby those carriers no longer allow EL AL to offer their domestic flights on an EL AL ticket; this change had a significant impact on our analysis of the viability of a route to Chicago,” Maimon wrote.

https://palestineinamerica.com/2017/01/ ... i-airline/

psa1011 · Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:44 am

mmahpeel wrote:
Interesting move by LY.

Seeing that SFO-TLV on UA is going to the 77W in May, why isn't LY making LAX-TLV daily instead?

Is the upgague actually confirmed? I looked for May and June and still see the 788.

mmahpeel · Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:23 pm

psa1011 wrote:
mmahpeel wrote:
Interesting move by LY.

Seeing that SFO-TLV on UA is going to the 77W in May, why isn't LY making LAX-TLV daily instead?

Is the upgague actually confirmed? I looked for May and June and still see the 788.

It was confirmed internally a few weeks ago and now listed for sale as the 77W effective 23 May.

babastud · Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:04 am

That's a big upgage, Kudos to UA

psa1011 · Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:55 pm

Any news on a start date for El Al?

DaufuskieGuy · Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:08 pm

babastud wrote:
That's a big upgage, Kudos to UA

leap frogging the 789 and 772, very rare to up gauge and jump two equipment types

NichCage · Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:42 am

El Al actually just published TLV-SFO officially, it's on airline route. Starting December 2018, 3 times a week.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -dec-2018/

aemoreira1981 · Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:53 am

DaufuskieGuy wrote:
babastud wrote:
That's a big upgage, Kudos to UA

leap frogging the 789 and 772, very rare to up gauge and jump two equipment types

Probably not enough B789s to do this on a B789. It would be stretching the range of a B772ER.

RainerBoeing777 · Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:18 am

and United comes with everything to increase the route SFO-TLV with its new flagship the Boeing 777-300ER

San Francisco – Tel Aviv eff 23MAY18 777-300ER replaces 787-8, 1 daily

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/276784/united-s18-international-service-changes-as-of-19jan18/

Motorhussy · Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:15 pm

Digressing but what’s El Al’s product like, I’ve never flown them? One always hears good things about others in the region - TK, EK, EY, QR come to mind - but I’ve never heard a mention about LY. Why would people fly them over other airlines to/from Israel(and I don’t mean those other ME ones I mentioned)?

tlvflyguy · Wed May 23, 2018 12:22 pm

LY has announced a delay of 6 months for TLV-SFO. Now scheduled to start May 2019.
LY claims this delay is caused by lack of frames due to expediting the retirement of their 767s.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/bus ... -1.6112477

The article claims LY is “considering” the delay but from an internal source, I can safely say this is a done deal.
They did have a 767 that was damaged in TLV when the ST backed into it. If they decided to write it off (a.net bonus!) then they could lacking frames to start the route.
It is unfortunate since they started selling tickets.

qf789 · Sat May 26, 2018 5:02 am

tlvflyguy wrote:
LY has announced a delay of 6 months for TLV-SFO. Now scheduled to start May 2019.
LY claims this delay is caused by lack of frames due to expediting the retirement of their 767s.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/bus ... -1.6112477

The article claims LY is “considering” the delay but from an internal source, I can safely say this is a done deal.
They did have a 767 that was damaged in TLV when the ST backed into it. If they decided to write it off (a.net bonus!) then they could lacking frames to start the route.
It is unfortunate since they started selling tickets.

TLV-SFO starting date has been pushed back to 13 May 19

https://twitter.com/Airlineroute/status ... 1635245056

amirs · Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:07 pm

yochai wrote:
747-400 and 767-300 fleet will be retired as follows:
747-400
4XELA September 2018
4XELB October 2018
4XELD January 2019
4XELC June 2019
4XELF (Freighter) July 2019

767-300
4XEAP July 2019
4XEAJ September 2019
4XEAK December 2019
4XEAR March 2020
4XEAM May 2020
4XEAN August 2020
4XEAL November 2020

No plans to replace the 747F

Hi Yochai
Do you know the updated retirement schedule? I heard they are getting rid of the 767-300 now, before the 744.

also why was the second EWR cancelled? a shame

rosecityspotter · Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:11 pm

wenders825 wrote:
why would they announce this so far in advance? this is like QR announcing LAS

what's the advantage going to be over UA? timing?

And, I presume, they're not a crappy airline like United

psa1011 · Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:33 pm

My Israeli friends all say they would still choose United, so perhaps this is a reason for the later start date.

SFOtoORD · Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:26 pm

psa1011 wrote:
My Israeli friends all say they would still choose United, so perhaps this is a reason for the later start date.

Agreed. I don’t think this flight ever starts for LY. UA will get the vast majority of the premium traffic and is adding a ton of add’l Y seats going to the 77W.

yochai · Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:20 pm

amirs wrote:
yochai wrote:
747-400 and 767-300 fleet will be retired as follows:
747-400
4XELA September 2018
4XELB October 2018
4XELD January 2019
4XELC June 2019
4XELF (Freighter) July 2019

767-300
4XEAP July 2019
4XEAJ September 2019
4XEAK December 2019
4XEAR March 2020
4XEAM May 2020
4XEAN August 2020
4XEAL November 2020

No plans to replace the 747F

Hi Yochai
Do you know the updated retirement schedule? I heard they are getting rid of the 767-300 now, before the 744.

also why was the second EWR cancelled? a shame

EAP/EAR will be retired in September/October, 2 more will be retired by year end (probably EAJ and EAM). 2 aircraft (EAL EAN)will remain as stand by aircraft for 787 fleet in case problems will rise with the RR engines.

amirs · Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:27 am

yochai wrote:
amirs wrote:
yochai wrote:
747-400 and 767-300 fleet will be retired as follows:
747-400
4XELA September 2018
4XELB October 2018
4XELD January 2019
4XELC June 2019
4XELF (Freighter) July 2019

767-300
4XEAP July 2019
4XEAJ September 2019
4XEAK December 2019
4XEAR March 2020
4XEAM May 2020
4XEAN August 2020
4XEAL November 2020

No plans to replace the 747F

Hi Yochai
Do you know the updated retirement schedule? I heard they are getting rid of the 767-300 now, before the 744.

also why was the second EWR cancelled? a shame

EAP/EAR will be retired in September/October, 2 more will be retired by year end (probably EAJ and EAM). 2 aircraft (EAL EAN)will remain as stand by aircraft for 787 fleet in case problems will rise with the RR engines.

WOW and I saw JNB, BOS, BOM and PEK are all getting upgauged to 777!
when are the 777 getting the 787 interiors?

El Al will launch flights to San Francisco Q4 2018

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