MrHMSH wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

Not planning to start a flame war, with current development at A330neo, I somehow feel GA firm order for 14 A330neo looks shaky. They have 30 A350-900XWB, 30 787-9 Dreamliner yet to be firmed up. The A330neo order was a result of cancellation of 7 A330ceo.

74 new widebody is way too much for them to take in since they only have 27 widebody now. Any thoughts?

I was under the impression that the A350 and 787 orders were actually LOIs, placed a long time ago and there's been little indication they will be firmed up.

Yes, it was placed during the 2015 Paris Air Show, the LOIs would have lapsed by now. The airline is now seeking to delay A339neo, A320neo and remaining ATR 72 delivery, halted all B737MAX-8 delivery.

A good CAPA analysisfro0m Nov 2017: https://centreforaviation.com/insights/ ... ity-380501

MrHMSH wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

Not planning to start a flame war, with current development at A330neo, I somehow feel GA firm order for 14 A330neo looks shaky. They have 30 A350-900XWB, 30 787-9 Dreamliner yet to be firmed up. The A330neo order was a result of cancellation of 7 A330ceo.

74 new widebody is way too much for them to take in since they only have 27 widebody now. Any thoughts?

I was under the impression that the A350 and 787 orders were actually LOIs, placed a long time ago and there's been little indication they will be firmed up.

Plans for acquiring either A350 or 787 have been shelved. See this thread: viewtopic.php?t=1373127 . IMO GA is better off with A339s anyway. The 251t variant may very well be able to reach Europe from Indonesia.

MrHMSH wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

Not planning to start a flame war, with current development at A330neo, I somehow feel GA firm order for 14 A330neo looks shaky. They have 30 A350-900XWB, 30 787-9 Dreamliner yet to be firmed up. The A330neo order was a result of cancellation of 7 A330ceo.

74 new widebody is way too much for them to take in since they only have 27 widebody now. Any thoughts?

I was under the impression that the A350 and 787 orders were actually LOIs, placed a long time ago and there's been little indication they will be firmed up.

Yes, nearly three years ago in the case of the A350s.

boefan wrote:

New Ukrainian airline chooses efficient 737 MAX family for its growth plans
SkyUp becomes 95th MAX customer, and first in Eastern Europe to order the MAX 10 model

Boeing [NYSE:BA] and SkyUp Airlines announced they have finalized a firm order for five 737 MAX airplanes valued at $624 million at list prices. The order includes two 737 MAX 8 and three 737 МАХ 10

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-releas ... tem=130151

Apologies for being a tad off topic: but when Boeing or Airbus see a livery like SkyUp do they pull them aside and say “you sure you want that livery on your new...?”

Boeing, Air Lease Corporation Sign Order for Eight 737 MAX 8 Airplanes

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-04-03- ... -Airplanes

boefan wrote:

Boeing, Air Lease Corporation Sign Order for Eight 737 MAX 8 Airplanes

And this is a new order, not a UFO identification.

Jet Airways has finalised order for 75 additional MAX, taking its total MAX order size to 150.

unrave wrote:

Jet Airways has finalised order for 75 additional MAX, taking its total MAX order size to 150.

Which models, if specified? I see them taking -10s.

Jet Airways order confirmed by Boeing, it's a new order, no mention of specific models.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-04-04- ... -Airplanes

Momo1435 wrote:

Jet Airways order confirmed by Boeing, it's a new order, no mention of specific models.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-04-04- ... -Airplanes

Amazing, 150 MAX's on order...and there was a thread last week that Jet wasn't paying salaries.

Btw, it drives me nuts that Boeing/airlines aren't identifying the specific models. But, I anticipate that if this did include -10s, Boeing would try to make a big deal out of it.

From Flightglobal
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... qu-447390/

Airbus secured an order for six A320neo jets from an undisclosed customer in March, along with a deal for two A321s from VietJet.
The agreements were the only orders placed with the European airframer during the month.
Cancellation of six A320s meant Airbus's net orders for the first quarter reached 45 aircraft – its highest net figure for the quarter since 2015.

American Orders 47 787s and cancels their A350 order.

http://news.aa.com/press-releases/press ... fault.aspx

American Airlines today announced an order for 47 new Boeing 787 widebody aircraft consisting of 22 787-8s scheduled to begin arriving in 2020 and 25 787-9s scheduled to begin arriving in 2023. The 787-8s will replace American’s Boeing 767-300s, while later 787-9 deliveries will replace Airbus A330-300s and older 777-200 widebody aircraft. The entire order of new 787s will be powered with General Electric’s GEnx-1B engines.

As part of the strategy to simplify its fleet, American agreed with Airbus today to terminate its order for 22 A350s, which was originally placed by US Airways.

Stitch wrote:

American Orders 47 787s and cancels their A350 order.

http://news.aa.com/press-releases/press ... fault.aspx

American Airlines today announced an order for 47 new Boeing 787 widebody aircraft consisting of 22 787-8s scheduled to begin arriving in 2020 and 25 787-9s scheduled to begin arriving in 2023. The 787-8s will replace American’s Boeing 767-300s, while later 787-9 deliveries will replace Airbus A330-300s and older 777-200 widebody aircraft. The entire order of new 787s will be powered with General Electric’s GEnx-1B engines.

As part of the strategy to simplify its fleet, American agreed with Airbus today to terminate its order for 22 A350s, which was originally placed by US Airways.

Boeing press release has been issued as well

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-04-06- ... reamliners

So with EK to confirm their MOU last year along with TK's recent order that would take this year's 787 count to 112 so Boeing should book as many 787's as they delivery this year

...... plus QANTAS options mature this year and AJ is on record saying they will be taken up

Airbus monthly update:

http://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/o ... eries.html

The month in review: March 2018

"The new business involved six A320neo jetliners for an unidentified customer, and two A321ceo aircraft for Vietnam’s VietJetAir."


The undisclosed order seems to be a conversion from the A320ceo as 6 ceo's were cancelled last month

Boeing Monthly Update

197 new orders

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/index. ... deliveries

ANA 2 x 777F
BOC Aviation 6 x 787-9
Boeing Business Jet 1 x 737MAX
Jet Airways 75 x 737MAX
SkyUp Airlines 5 x 737MAX
Turkish Airlines 25 x 787-9
Unidentified 2 x 737MAX (28 March)
Unidentified 73 x 737MAX (29 March)
Unidentified 4 x 737MAX (30 March)
Unidentified 3 x 767-300F (30 March)
Unidentified 1 x 787-8 (5 March)

Boeing posted it's monthly update, it's very interesting.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/

1st this message.

Revenue Recognition Accounting Standard ASC 606 Information 
During the first quarter of 2018, Boeing adopted a new revenue recognition accounting standard (ASC 606) which, among other things, imposes additional criteria for recognizing contracted backlog with customers beyond the existence of a firm contract to deliver. In connection with the implementation of ASC 606, Boeing removed 66 orders from backlog. Apart from adding the table below, this site has not been adjusted for the adoption of ASC 606, and reflects all orders for which we have a firm contractual commitment. As such, aircraft identified for a specific customer on this site may not necessarily contribute to the totals for backlog and/or other amounts included in our financial statements.

The site list these cancelations seperatly.


But there are also new orders. The large Jet 737 order was already booked last month. There's an Unidentified order for 73 737 MAX. There were some more unidentified orders for the 737, 767 and 787. Plus the other orders that were already announced.

The BOC 787 order was a transfer from Norwegian.

Momo1435 wrote:

Boeing posted it's monthly update, it's very interesting.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/

1st this message.

Revenue Recognition Accounting Standard ASC 606 Information 
During the first quarter of 2018, Boeing adopted a new revenue recognition accounting standard (ASC 606) which, among other things, imposes additional criteria for recognizing contracted backlog with customers beyond the existence of a firm contract to deliver. In connection with the implementation of ASC 606, Boeing removed 66 orders from backlog. Apart from adding the table below, this site has not been adjusted for the adoption of ASC 606, and reflects all orders for which we have a firm contractual commitment. As such, aircraft identified for a specific customer on this site may not necessarily contribute to the totals for backlog and/or other amounts included in our financial statements.

The site list these cancelations seperatly.


But there are also new orders. The large Jet 737 order was already booked last month. There's an Unidentified order for 73 737 MAX. There were some more unidentified orders for the 737, 767 and 787. Plus the other orders that were already announced.

The BOC 787 order was a transfer from Norwegian.

Interesting, but I am sure a lot of people will read too much into this. Basically it means under accounting standards, those orders should not be included. But, for legal purposes, they are still contracts. Not being included for accounting basically means the likelihood of the contract being fulfilled is very low.

qf789 wrote:

Boeing Monthly Update

197 new orders

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/index. ... deliveries

ANA 2 x 777F
BOC Aviation 6 x 787-9
Boeing Business Jet 1 x 737MAX
Jet Airways 75 x 737MAX
SkyUp Airlines 5 x 737MAX
Turkish Airlines 25 x 787-9
Unidentified 2 x 737MAX (28 March)
Unidentified 73 x 737MAX (29 March)
Unidentified 4 x 737MAX (30 March)
Unidentified 3 x 767-300F (30 March)
Unidentified 1 x 787-8 (5 March)

According to sources in China the 767 order is from SF which is the Chinese equivlent of UPS.

Boeing, Qatar Airways Sign Letter of Intent for Five 777 Freighters

https://www.qatarairways.com/en/press-r ... s-releases

Momo1435 wrote:

Boeing posted it's monthly update, it's very interesting.

Revenue Recognition Accounting Standard ASC 606 Information 
During the first quarter of 2018, Boeing adopted a new revenue recognition accounting standard (ASC 606) which, among other things, imposes additional criteria for recognizing contracted backlog with customers beyond the existence of a firm contract to deliver. In connection with the implementation of ASC 606, Boeing removed 66 orders from backlog. Apart from adding the table below, this site has not been adjusted for the adoption of ASC 606, and reflects all orders for which we have a firm contractual commitment. As such, aircraft identified for a specific customer on this site may not necessarily contribute to the totals for backlog and/or other amounts included in our financial statements.

The site list these cancelations seperatly.

ASC 606 came into effect for companies that report using US GAAP to apply the revenue standard for annual reporting periods (including interim periods therein) beginning after 15 December 2017.

The global equivalent is known as IFRS 15 and entities that report under IFRS are required to apply the revenue standard for annual reporting periods beginning on or after 1 January 2018

https://apttus.com/blog/what-is-asc-606 ... ffect-you/

Imagine if Airbus applied the same disciplines. The backlog would take a substantial hit. I wonder how many of those huge narrow body orders would pass muster. Maybe Boeing made this move as a subtle challenge to Airbus.

SC430 wrote:

Imagine if Airbus applied the same disciplines. The backlog would take a substantial hit. I wonder how many of those huge narrow body orders would pass muster. Maybe Boeing made this move as a subtle challenge to Airbus.

Airbus has adopted the IFRS 15 standard as of 1 January 2018. This is the international counterpart, see Stitch's comment.

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... egmen.html

But they haven't made any statements if it's going to have an effect on their backlog. Maybe it already has with for example the cancellation of the Virgin Atlantic A380 order. With so many orders there will be some that will never be delivered, but the order book is actually pretty lean already.

And this kind of accounting rules have nothing to do with any A vs. B competition. This is much bigger, all companies have to apply to this, if Boeing would have done this as a challenge to Airbus they would have done it much earlier, and not on the latest possible moment they could.


For Boeing ASC 606 Adjustment in the backlog.:

787 => -10 = The Iraq order?
777 => -5 = PIA?
737 => -51 = most likely some Unidentified orders, but the Utair 737 NG orders, 35 in total could also be in the mix.

Momo1435 wrote:

SC430 wrote:

Imagine if Airbus applied the same disciplines. The backlog would take a substantial hit. I wonder how many of those huge narrow body orders would pass muster. Maybe Boeing made this move as a subtle challenge to Airbus.

Airbus has adopted the IFRS 15 standard as of 1 January 2018. This is the international counterpart, see Stitch's comment.

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... egmen.html

But they haven't made any statements if it's going to have an effect on their backlog. Maybe it already has with for example the cancellation of the Virgin Atlantic A380 order. With so many orders there will be some that will never be delivered, but the order book is actually pretty lean already.

And this kind of accounting rules have nothing to do with any A vs. B competition. This is much bigger, all companies have to apply to this, if Boeing would have done this as a challenge to Airbus they would have done it much earlier, and not on the latest possible moment they could.


For Boeing ASC 606 Adjustment in the backlog.:

787 => -10 = The Iraq order?
777 => -5 = PIA?
737 => -51 = most likely some Unidentified orders, but the Utair 737 NG orders, 35 in total could also be in the mix.

I can think of 30 A380 still in the backlog but not in the delivery plan. Shouldn't they be removed from backlog?

SC430 wrote:

I can think of 30 A380 still in the backlog but not in the delivery plan. Shouldn't they be removed from backlog?

Not according to the mentioned standards. But we’ll, maybe they can just do it because of your opinion, of course. How brave is ignorance.

The Amedeo is one of the least solid orders on the Airbus order book, but it's very loose terms might be the reasons why it doesn't have to be removed under the new accounting conditions.

I suspect there would be ways to write a contract to in part solve any issues with how orders are treated under the new accounting practices.

Lion Air Group firms 50 x 737MAX10 order, previously listed as a UFO

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-04-10- ... -Airplanes

SAS signs firm order for 35 Airbus A320neo Family aircraft

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2018/04/sas-signs-firm-order-for-35-airbus-a320neo-family-aircraft.html

Jayafe wrote:

SC430 wrote:

I can think of 30 A380 still in the backlog but not in the delivery plan. Shouldn't they be removed from backlog?

Not according to the mentioned standards. But we’ll, maybe they can just do it because of your opinion, of course. How brave is ignorance.

There is no courage in ignorance of the facts. John Leary publicly called the Amedeo arrangement a firm order. It never was, how much other garbage is in that backlog to stroke this man's selfish pride?

SC430 wrote:

Jayafe wrote:

SC430 wrote:

I can think of 30 A380 still in the backlog but not in the delivery plan. Shouldn't they be removed from backlog?

Not according to the mentioned standards. But we’ll, maybe they can just do it because of your opinion, of course. How brave is ignorance.

There is no courage in ignorance of the facts. John Leary publicly called the Amedeo arrangement a firm order. It never was, how much other garbage is in that backlog to stroke this man's selfish pride?

I think it is fair to say the airlines that ordered those A380's would still have contracts in place. Those contracts would cover a whole range of scenarios, including deferral of aircraft. It just maybe the case that it is advantageous for the airlines to not cancel the orders.

If this is the case than Airbus would have limited control on how the contracts and subsequently the orders could be treated.

travelhound wrote:

SC430 wrote:

Jayafe wrote:

Not according to the mentioned standards. But we’ll, maybe they can just do it because of your opinion, of course. How brave is ignorance.

There is no courage in ignorance of the facts. John Leary publicly called the Amedeo arrangement a firm order. It never was, how much other garbage is in that backlog to stroke this man's selfish pride?

I think it is fair to say the airlines that ordered those A380's would still have contracts in place. Those contracts would cover a whole range of scenarios, including deferral of aircraft. It just maybe the case that it is advantageous for the airlines to not cancel the orders.

If this is the case than Airbus would have limited control on how the contracts and subsequently the orders could be treated.

Contracts do mean that they have to be placed in the backlog if there is no delivery date. Amedeo is NOT a firm order, it is a sales partnership agreement. IF Amedeo places a frame (s) with an airline, then it can be added. This was just a feint by Leahy to boost A380 sales at a time when they were getting embarrassed by the lack of action on the big bird.

If we wish to discuss backlogs "at risk" from ASC 606 / IFRS 15, we should probably open a new thread rather than hash it out in this one.

Stitch is correct - this is a summary orders thread, posts on what is ordered with commentary on the orders in other threads.

Looks like QF have converted 9 more A320neo into A321neo for JQ

https://blueswandaily.com/capa-fleet-da ... r-jetstar/

Whats the status of the A330neo order from Hifly? Is it through a lessor and then to them?

Arion640 wrote:

Whats the status of the A330neo order from Hifly? Is it through a lessor and then to them?

Just a story, no order announced.

Geoff

Someone83 wrote:

SAS has ordered a single A330-300 to replace one A340-300 (LN-RKP that will be parted out). RR Trent engines

https://www.sasgroup.net/en/wp-content/ ... 180412.pdf

Her's the press release from Airbus

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... haul-.html

Geoff1947 wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

Whats the status of the A330neo order from Hifly? Is it through a lessor and then to them?

Just a story, no order announced.

Geoff

Not correct. Hi Fly is taking its first A330-900neo on lease from ALC.

http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... 30-900-alc

Someone83 wrote:

SAS has ordered a single A330-300 to replace one A340-300 (LN-RKP that will be parted out). RR Trent engines

https://www.sasgroup.net/en/wp-content/ ... 180412.pdf

LN-RKP is older, 21.2 years, than the other A340-300 at SAS. It was bought used from LAN airlines in 2013, a former Air Canada bird.

The other 7 A340-300 at SAS are 16 to 17 years old.

Flying-Tiger wrote:

Geoff1947 wrote:

Arion640 wrote:

Whats the status of the A330neo order from Hifly? Is it through a lessor and then to them?

Just a story, no order announced.

Geoff

Not correct. Hi Fly is taking its first A330-900neo on lease from ALC.

http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... 30-900-alc

I think what he meant is, that it isn't a new order direct with Airbus, but that Hi Fly are getting the aircraft through leases.

As several leasing companies have the A330-900 on order, we can expect future announcements of airlines leasing the A330-900 from a leasing company, rather than ordering frames from Airbus. We see this also with the A320 family frames were SAS leases 15 frames, with a shorter delivery horizon than the frames they order directly.

Drukair has signed a purchase agreement for 1 A320neo

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... 0neo-.html

jupiter2 wrote:

Flying-Tiger wrote:

Geoff1947 wrote:

Just a story, no order announced.

Geoff

Not correct. Hi Fly is taking its first A330-900neo on lease from ALC.

http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... 30-900-alc

I think what he meant is, that it isn't a new order direct with Airbus, but that Hi Fly are getting the aircraft through leases.

Exactly, one frame from an existing lessor order. Not quite the new order for 10 that we hoped for. Not a new order for Airbus.

Geoff

RYANAIR to order 25 B737-MAX more

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-04-24- ... 737-MAX-8s

pabloeing wrote:

RYANAIR to order 25 B737-MAX more

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-04-24- ... 737-MAX-8s

Not a new order:

The $3 billion order, at current list prices, was previously listed as unidentified on Boeing's Orders & Deliveries website.

Interesting it is named as MAX8 instead of MAX200 as one would expect...

Jayafe wrote:

pabloeing wrote:

RYANAIR to order 25 B737-MAX more

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-04-24- ... 737-MAX-8s

Not a new order:

The $3 billion order, at current list prices, was previously listed as unidentified on Boeing's Orders & Deliveries website.

Interesting it is named as MAX8 instead of MAX200 as one would expect...

I guess if it was listed as the MAX200 it wouldn't really be unidentified as FR is the only airline with that on order and it would be an obvious top up for Ryanair. Maybe thats why?

Boeing has dropped the MAX200 nomenclature and uses “high capacity MAX 8” instead now. This was first noticed last year at the Paris Air Show iirc. Probably to avoid causing confusion with ill informed press on what the MAX200 is.

Southwest orders 40 more MAX 8

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -max-fleet