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User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:25 pm

Trololzilla wrote:
Would like to mention (through an admin from a different forum who had it on good authority) that there is a strong possibility that the entirety of Concourse D will be reopened within the next few years, enabling the Terminal 1 - Terminal 2 connection once again. Apparently it's already in the planning phase.

However, as with all rumors, take it with a grain of salt (though this reopening seems inevitable regardless).


Since D is "haunted" :tombstone: who would want to be there after that drunk PAX running from police jumped into the garbage compactor and died? Think that happened back in 88 or 89.

In all honesty, I could see WN moving down into E34,36,38. If D opens up someone is going to have to expand big time.
 
stlgph
Posts: 10194
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:40 pm

Trololzilla wrote:
Would like to mention (through an admin from a different forum who had it on good authority) that there is a strong possibility that the entirety of Concourse D will be reopened within the next few years, enabling the Terminal 1 - Terminal 2 connection once again. Apparently it's already in the planning phase.

However, as with all rumors, take it with a grain of salt (though this reopening seems inevitable regardless).


Thinking on a "grand scheme" of things, i.e. say a 20 year plan, it would make sense to do so.

Part 1- Renovate, rebuild, remodel Concourse D. Once you finish, open it up for Southwest expansion, other flights and services, and then move everyone from Concourse A over for Part 2.

Part 2- Renovate, rebuild, remodel Concourse A, moving current carriers over into Concourse D. Then move everyone back over for Part 3.

Part 3- Renovate, rebuild, remodel Concourse C, moving current carriers over into Concourse D. Then move everyone back over when it's done.


Other wild ideas ... not rebuilding Concourse A and instead using the space and land to build out terminal access and concessions and services.

OR rebuilding Concourse A as an international/charters arrival wing.

Are these big out of the box ideas? Yes, but they're not entirely unreasonable. The airport sits in a prime location, at some point and time something will have to be done to address the age of the facilities, etc.
It's just much easier to Tom Bradley the existing structure than to try and move an entire airport somewhere else. After what was spent on that runway, you'll be hard pressed to find land and money for the complete build of a new airport somewhere in the metro area.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 1463
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:44 pm

TWA302 wrote:


In all honesty, I could see WN moving down into E34,36,38. If D opens up someone is going to have to expand big time.


Southwest moved into E34-38 last June.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 1463
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:15 pm

stlgph wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
Would like to mention (through an admin from a different forum who had it on good authority) that there is a strong possibility that the entirety of Concourse D will be reopened within the next few years, enabling the Terminal 1 - Terminal 2 connection once again. Apparently it's already in the planning phase.

However, as with all rumors, take it with a grain of salt (though this reopening seems inevitable regardless).


Thinking on a "grand scheme" of things, i.e. say a 20 year plan, it would make sense to do so.

Part 1- Renovate, rebuild, remodel Concourse D. Once you finish, open it up for Southwest expansion, other flights and services, and then move everyone from Concourse A over for Part 2.

Part 2- Renovate, rebuild, remodel Concourse A, moving current carriers over into Concourse D. Then move everyone back over for Part 3.

Part 3- Renovate, rebuild, remodel Concourse C, moving current carriers over into Concourse D. Then move everyone back over when it's done.


Other wild ideas ... not rebuilding Concourse A and instead using the space and land to build out terminal access and concessions and services.

OR rebuilding Concourse A as an international/charters arrival wing.

Are these big out of the box ideas? Yes, but they're not entirely unreasonable. The airport sits in a prime location, at some point and time something will have to be done to address the age of the facilities, etc.
It's just much easier to Tom Bradley the existing structure than to try and move an entire airport somewhere else. After what was spent on that runway, you'll be hard pressed to find land and money for the complete build of a new airport somewhere in the metro area.


I would like to see them do something drastic like this but I am not optimistic it happens. They just modeled A and C semi recently and are getting ready to remodel/reopen more of C. I am not sure I see them spending money to tear down and rebuild after they just spent money "remodeling" those concourses, plus the work they have done in old D now E. You did say 20 years so maybe in 10 or 15 things change but it seems like they are content to just update some things. To be honest it probably wouldn't make a big difference on what air service some so it doesn't matter but I selfishly would like it just to be more open and have some better amenities.

I would be even be happy to see something like A and C connected as one long concourse by connecting them at the end of B. Then use the entrance to B as the security entrance. You can make an indoor plaza/food court/shops in that area.

Something like this. This is rough outline and you can make things bigger or smaller. I just have heard you can't really go north much for taxiway reasons. You could build the new center part while leaving the current terminals and not impact much, maybe 7 gates. You could move the ones impacted in C further down C or to D and you could move the impacted airline in A to C or D also.

Image
 
gerstetm
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:27 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:34 am

I have a feeling that STL is going to “surprise” us with something in the near future that includes a major remodeling phase and will include something for better international arrivals and departures. Just my thoughts. But STL has been expanding pretty rapidly. I may be totally wrong, just my opinion.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 1463
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:41 am

gerstetm wrote:
I have a feeling that STL is going to “surprise” us with something in the near future that includes a major remodeling phase and will include something for better international arrivals and departures. Just my thoughts. But STL has been expanding pretty rapidly. I may be totally wrong, just my opinion.


They recently announced they are putting in a new baggage carousel in the Intl Arrivals area.... soo.. That is something...

But being a little more serious I think they are remodeling C27-30 with the idea that some new airlines could go in there. C28 can handle up to a 747. It would have access to the Admirals Club, so it would be a good spot for BA to slide in. That would also give them some extra gates if Spirit or JetBlue ever come. Some speculation on my part but it would make sense. AA already uses C28 a couple times a day and it is behind a wall they have to open a door up to for use. They need to just get the areas reopened so its easier access.
 
STLflyer
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:08 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:50 pm

I had a completely random question come up in my mind that I'm curious to know the answer to....

Could STL handle an A380? I know there's not a gate capable of handling it, but if one had to divert here, or someone with more money than they know what to do with chartered one, could it land here, taxi somewhere so it would be out of the way of other aircraft and be serviced with airstairs, refuel and take off?
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 1463
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:10 pm

STLflyer wrote:
I had a completely random question come up in my mind that I'm curious to know the answer to....

Could STL handle an A380? I know there's not a gate capable of handling it, but if one had to divert here, or someone with more money than they know what to do with chartered one, could it land here, taxi somewhere so it would be out of the way of other aircraft and be serviced with airstairs, refuel and take off?


Out of the way parking: YES- They could put it over where they parked the Condor jet that had to emergency land last year.
Refuel: I would imagine YES
Deboarding: No clue. They have air stairs that work with AF1 but I don't know if that means they would work with a A380. Like you said, I know there isn't a jetway that could handle it. I would guess they would divert it to ORD if at all possible unless it was a really dire emergency.
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1719
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:26 pm

TWA302 wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
Would like to mention (through an admin from a different forum who had it on good authority) that there is a strong possibility that the entirety of Concourse D will be reopened within the next few years, enabling the Terminal 1 - Terminal 2 connection once again. Apparently it's already in the planning phase.

However, as with all rumors, take it with a grain of salt (though this reopening seems inevitable regardless).


Since D is "haunted" :tombstone: who would want to be there after that drunk PAX running from police jumped into the garbage compactor and died? Think that happened back in 88 or 89.

In all honesty, I could see WN moving down into E34,36,38. If D opens up someone is going to have to expand big time.

The source on UrbanSTL is not a reliable one. There is zero chance they are reopening all of D. St. Louis is a zero growth market right now, which is a fact, and there just won't be explosive growth from WN because the traffic isn't there.
 
stl07
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:12 pm

LambertMan wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
Would like to mention (through an admin from a different forum who had it on good authority) that there is a strong possibility that the entirety of Concourse D will be reopened within the next few years, enabling the Terminal 1 - Terminal 2 connection once again. Apparently it's already in the planning phase.

However, as with all rumors, take it with a grain of salt (though this reopening seems inevitable regardless).


Since D is "haunted" :tombstone: who would want to be there after that drunk PAX running from police jumped into the garbage compactor and died? Think that happened back in 88 or 89.

In all honesty, I could see WN moving down into E34,36,38. If D opens up someone is going to have to expand big time.

The source on UrbanSTL is not a reliable one. There is zero chance they are reopening all of D. St. Louis is a zero growth market right now, which is a fact, and there just won't be explosive growth from WN because the traffic isn't there.

I wouldn't say zero growth but all of D growth is certainly not happening anytime soon. I heard that they were exploring ways to get passengers to be able to move from C to E without leaving security. What that person said may have just meant opening up D's walkways
 
gerstetm
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:27 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:28 pm

LambertMan wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
Would like to mention (through an admin from a different forum who had it on good authority) that there is a strong possibility that the entirety of Concourse D will be reopened within the next few years, enabling the Terminal 1 - Terminal 2 connection once again. Apparently it's already in the planning phase.

However, as with all rumors, take it with a grain of salt (though this reopening seems inevitable regardless).


Since D is "haunted" :tombstone: who would want to be there after that drunk PAX running from police jumped into the garbage compactor and died? Think that happened back in 88 or 89.

In all honesty, I could see WN moving down into E34,36,38. If D opens up someone is going to have to expand big time.

The source on UrbanSTL is not a reliable one. There is zero chance they are reopening all of D. St. Louis is a zero growth market right now, which is a fact, and there just won't be explosive growth from WN because the traffic isn't there.


I highly disagree regarding that STL is a zero growth market. Actually statistics show that’s STL has been expanding pretty fast. So I don’t know where you got that fact about it being a zero growth market. Also, since WN keeps slowly moving down the concourse, they might seem it necessary to reopen the whole thing again (Talking in 3-4 years). Especially if another carrier decided to start flights here such as JetBlue or Spirit.
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1719
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:48 pm

gerstetm wrote:
LambertMan wrote:
TWA302 wrote:

Since D is "haunted" :tombstone: who would want to be there after that drunk PAX running from police jumped into the garbage compactor and died? Think that happened back in 88 or 89.

In all honesty, I could see WN moving down into E34,36,38. If D opens up someone is going to have to expand big time.

The source on UrbanSTL is not a reliable one. There is zero chance they are reopening all of D. St. Louis is a zero growth market right now, which is a fact, and there just won't be explosive growth from WN because the traffic isn't there.


I highly disagree regarding that STL is a zero growth market. Actually statistics show that’s STL has been expanding pretty fast. So I don’t know where you got that fact about it being a zero growth market. Also, since WN keeps slowly moving down the concourse, they might seem it necessary to reopen the whole thing again (Talking in 3-4 years). Especially if another carrier decided to start flights here such as JetBlue or Spirit.

St. Louis is a zero growth MARKET - not airport. Origin and destination traffic is flat and lagging similarly sized markets. Fact.

The only growth is due to Southwest moving more connecting traffic over St. Louis and smart management of the airport -thank you, RHN. We have a great director that has relied on atypical solutions to generate revenue, minimize expenses, and ultimately lower landing fees.

But, the market itself is sadly zero growth.
 
Trololzilla
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:53 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:02 pm

Care to elaborate on how/why the source isn't reliable? It's a direct quote from someone within the airport.

The D Concourse can be reopened entirely without adding the actual gates back yet. I'm not entirely sure why that's so hard to believe.
 
gerstetm
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:27 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:41 pm

LambertMan wrote:
gerstetm wrote:
LambertMan wrote:
The source on UrbanSTL is not a reliable one. There is zero chance they are reopening all of D. St. Louis is a zero growth market right now, which is a fact, and there just won't be explosive growth from WN because the traffic isn't there.


I highly disagree regarding that STL is a zero growth market. Actually statistics show that’s STL has been expanding pretty fast. So I don’t know where you got that fact about it being a zero growth market. Also, since WN keeps slowly moving down the concourse, they might seem it necessary to reopen the whole thing again (Talking in 3-4 years). Especially if another carrier decided to start flights here such as JetBlue or Spirit.

St. Louis is a zero growth MARKET - not airport. Origin and destination traffic is flat and lagging similarly sized markets. Fact.

The only growth is due to Southwest moving more connecting traffic over St. Louis and smart management of the airport -thank you, RHN. We have a great director that has relied on atypical solutions to generate revenue, minimize expenses, and ultimately lower landing fees.

But, the market itself is sadly zero growth.


Airport growth is not solely based off of more routes being added but yet the frequency of flights per day. I’m the padt few months carriers such as United and American have announced that some routes from and to STL will be mainline. That is considered growth. So I disagree that is just WN that is growing in STL. However, I do agree that STL does not have much of a market growth as a city.
Last edited by gerstetm on Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 1463
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:47 pm

gerstetm wrote:
LambertMan wrote:
gerstetm wrote:

I highly disagree regarding that STL is a zero growth market. Actually statistics show that’s STL has been expanding pretty fast. So I don’t know where you got that fact about it being a zero growth market. Also, since WN keeps slowly moving down the concourse, they might seem it necessary to reopen the whole thing again (Talking in 3-4 years). Especially if another carrier decided to start flights here such as JetBlue or Spirit.

St. Louis is a zero growth MARKET - not airport. Origin and destination traffic is flat and lagging similarly sized markets. Fact.

The only growth is due to Southwest moving more connecting traffic over St. Louis and smart management of the airport -thank you, RHN. We have a great director that has relied on atypical solutions to generate revenue, minimize expenses, and ultimately lower landing fees.

But, the market itself is sadly zero growth.


Just curious where you got that quote from RHN. I want to see what else is included in that article. Airport growth is not solely based off of more routes being added but yet the frequency of flights per day. I’m the padt few months carriers such as United and American have announced that some routes from and to STL will be mainline. That is considered growth. So I disagree that is just WN that is growing in STL. However, I do agree that STL does not have much of a market growth as a city.


I don't think he was quoting RHN there. He was just splitting up his statement.

That said as others mentioned the person on UrbanSTL was just talking about opening the walkways, not all the gates. I can't see more than 4 more gates opening in the semi near future in D/E
 
gerstetm
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:27 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:51 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
gerstetm wrote:
LambertMan wrote:
St. Louis is a zero growth MARKET - not airport. Origin and destination traffic is flat and lagging similarly sized markets. Fact.

The only growth is due to Southwest moving more connecting traffic over St. Louis and smart management of the airport -thank you, RHN. We have a great director that has relied on atypical solutions to generate revenue, minimize expenses, and ultimately lower landing fees.

But, the market itself is sadly zero growth.


Just curious where you got that quote from RHN. I want to see what else is included in that article. Airport growth is not solely based off of more routes being added but yet the frequency of flights per day. I’m the padt few months carriers such as United and American have announced that some routes from and to STL will be mainline. That is considered growth. So I disagree that is just WN that is growing in STL. However, I do agree that STL does not have much of a market growth as a city.


I don't think he was quoting RHN there. He was just splitting up his statement.


Okay, gotcha.
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 1463
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:29 pm

Finished my Load Factor spreadsheet for full year 2017 Load Factors (Intl are only through September)

Percentages are for entire year and combined both ways. I have them broken down by direction/month in the spreadsheet. I did not include Intl routes in this post.

Top 20
Frontier Denver CO (DEN) 89.69%
Southwest Orlando FL (MCO) 89.30%
Southwest San Deigo CA (SAN) 88.76%
Allegaint (BLV) St Petersburg/Tampa FL (PIE) 88.19%
Southwest Milwaukee WI (MKE) 87.28%
Southwest Denver CO (DEN) 87.01%
United Denver CO (DEN) 86.79%
Southwest Portland OR (PDX) 86.49%
United Washington DC (IAD) 86.38%
Southwest San Francisco CA (SFO) 86.28%
Southwest Seattle WA (SEA) 86.06%
Southwest Pittsburgh PA (PIT) 85.89%
Allegiant (BLV) Las Vegas NV (LAS) 85.87%
Allegiant (BLV) Orlando/Sanford FL (SFB) 85.43%
United Houston TX (IAH) 85.35%
Southwest Panama City FL (ECP) 85.34%
Southwest Las Vegas NV (LAS) 85.32%
Southwest Boston MA (BOS) 85.11%
Southwest Washington DC (DCA) 85.05%
Alaska Portland (PDX) 84.76% (Being cut in May...)

Bottom 15

Delta Cincinnati OH (CVG) 59.13%
Southwest Minneapolis MN (MSP) 69.11%
Southwest Detroit MI (DTW) 71.70%
Southwest Tulsa OK (TUL) 71.82%
Allegiant (BLV) Fort Lauderdale FL (FLL) 72.14%
American Miami FL (MIA) 72.58%
Southwest Chicago IL (MDW) 72.63%
Southwest New Orleans LA (MSY) 73.23%
Southwest Kansas City MO (MCI) 73.36%
Southwest Dallas TX (DAL) 73.85%
Southwest Little Rock AR (LIT) 74.71%
Southwest Houston TX (HOU) 74.83%
Southwest San Antonio TX (SAT) 75.56%
Southwest Tampa FL (TPA) 75.75%
Delta Minneapolis MN (MSP) 75.81%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 1463
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:04 pm

Looks like WOW did a plane swap for the entire schedule now. They originally changed to the newer seat map plane when they added the extra flight from June onward but now they have changed it to the same plane for May also. The "Big Seat" option will be there for all flights now.

For comparison.

New seat map. 208 seats

http://wowair-web-files.s3.amazonaws.co ... %20CAT.pdf

Old. 200 seats

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/wowa ... ID_SON.pdf

EDIT: After looking closer not ALL flights have changed, but some have.
Last edited by Jshank83 on Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
stlgph
Posts: 10194
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:11 pm

Ah, so nice to visit the old STL this past week. It's been a while. Concourse C is nice but still just not same. :) It was still weird to pull in to C and look to the left and see all the Southwest tails lined up to the east.

However, it's nice that the terminal, specifically in the baggage claim area, hasn't lost the "smell."

Overall, the whole thing reminds me of a remodeled JC Penney, but you never know what will happen in all of this :)
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
User avatar
BN727227Ultra
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:25 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest Kansas City MO (MCI) 73.36%


Wonder if STL-MCI and vice versa is repositioning and WN is happy to get any butts in seats.

Or, it's sold as a milk run (eg., STL-MCI-DAL, to pick a routing out of the air) and ticket buyers can take it or leave it.

1. As bad as I-70 is, I still wouldn't consider flying as an alternative.
2. I don't mind multi-stop cross-country, to be honest!
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 1463
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:45 pm

BN727227Ultra wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest Kansas City MO (MCI) 73.36%


Wonder if STL-MCI and vice versa is repositioning and WN is happy to get any butts in seats.

Or, it's sold as a milk run (eg., STL-MCI-DAL, to pick a routing out of the air) and ticket buyers can take it or leave it.

1. As bad as I-70 is, I still wouldn't consider flying as an alternative.
2. I don't mind multi-stop cross-country, to be honest!


I would be happy to fly STL-MCI if MCI was closer to downtown, but it is so far out that the time and ground transportation cost takes away from the savings. I wish they had a train from the airport to downtown.

Current routing for M-F

DTW-STL-MCI-LGA
PIT-STL-MCI-PHX
TPA-STL-MCI-BNA
CLE-STL-MCI

Those are a lot better for people going to through STL to MCI than people from STL going through MCI to the next stop. PIT/CLE/DTW all do not have nonstops on WN to MCI. I wish they would have a STL-MCI-ABQ (and visa versa) route since that is about the only route from KC going west that STL doesn't have. Going to BNA/PHX/LGA doesn't help much. IMO every STL-MCI flight should go west next ABQ/OAK/SEA/SAN etc.

MCI-STL-CLE
IND-MCI-STL-MCO
PHX-MCI-STL-DEN
ATL-MCI-STL-MSY

First flight is good for MCI people. I think the PDEW on STL-IND is something like 10 so not many people are flying it but if you are I guess IND-MCI-STL is about as good as it is going to get.
 
User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:26 pm

BN727227Ultra wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest Kansas City MO (MCI) 73.36%


Wonder if STL-MCI and vice versa is repositioning and WN is happy to get any butts in seats.

Or, it's sold as a milk run (eg., STL-MCI-DAL, to pick a routing out of the air) and ticket buyers can take it or leave it.

1. As bad as I-70 is, I still wouldn't consider flying as an alternative.
2. I don't mind multi-stop cross-country, to be honest!


I ALWAYS fly to KC on WN. 70 is a nightmare and have only done the drive once in the past five years.
 
gerstetm
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:27 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:39 pm

It’s awesome with what is happening on Wow!
 
Jshank83
Topic Author
Posts: 1463
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:06 pm

Numbers for February are out.

Passengers
Up 3.9% on the month
Up 4.1% on the year

Cargo
Up 2.7% on the month
Up 3.7% on the year

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... PubRel.pdf
 
User avatar
BN727227Ultra
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:08 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
BN727227Ultra wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Southwest Kansas City MO (MCI) 73.36%


Wonder if STL-MCI and vice versa is repositioning and WN is happy to get any butts in seats.

Or, it's sold as a milk run (eg., STL-MCI-DAL, to pick a routing out of the air) and ticket buyers can take it or leave it.

1. As bad as I-70 is, I still wouldn't consider flying as an alternative.
2. I don't mind multi-stop cross-country, to be honest!


I would be happy to fly STL-MCI if MCI was closer to downtown, but it is so far out that the time and ground transportation cost takes away from the savings. I wish they had a train from the airport to downtown.

Current routing for M-F

DTW-STL-MCI-LGA
PIT-STL-MCI-PHX
TPA-STL-MCI-BNA
CLE-STL-MCI

Those are a lot better for people going to through STL to MCI than people from STL going through MCI to the next stop. PIT/CLE/DTW all do not have nonstops on WN to MCI. I wish they would have a STL-MCI-ABQ (and visa versa) route since that is about the only route from KC going west that STL doesn't have. Going to BNA/PHX/LGA doesn't help much. IMO every STL-MCI flight should go west next ABQ/OAK/SEA/SAN etc.

MCI-STL-CLE
IND-MCI-STL-MCO
PHX-MCI-STL-DEN
ATL-MCI-STL-MSY

First flight is good for MCI people. I think the PDEW on STL-IND is something like 10 so not many people are flying it but if you are I guess IND-MCI-STL is about as good as it is going to get.


Nice legwork, thanks!
 
stl07
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:12 pm

gerstetm wrote:
It’s awesome with what is happening on Wow!

Just FWI, but I was doing some dummy bookings to check out the new seat map, and the inaugural is at $99 if anyone is interested, but you would have to connect/ drive to ORD/CVG to get to Keflavik on the way there obviously
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 2299
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
First flight is good for MCI people. I think the PDEW on STL-IND is something like 10 so not many people are flying it but if you are I guess IND-MCI-STL is about as good as it is going to get.


I usually go IND-ORD/MDW-STL which is much better. I and other people I know try to avoid MCI like the plague
2018: AMS, ATL, BOS, CDG, CLT, DCA, DFW, DTW, EWR, FLL, HPN, JFK, IAD, IAH, IND, LAX, LGA, LHR, MIA, MSP, ORD, PHL, SAN, SEA, SJD, SLC, SFO, TPA, TXL, ZRH....Loading....
 
LambertMan
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:00 pm

stlgph wrote:
Ah, so nice to visit the old STL this past week. It's been a while. Concourse C is nice but still just not same. :) It was still weird to pull in to C and look to the left and see all the Southwest tails lined up to the east.

However, it's nice that the terminal, specifically in the baggage claim area, hasn't lost the "smell."

Overall, the whole thing reminds me of a remodeled JC Penney, but you never know what will happen in all of this :)

Is there a way to get up onto the third level where the old Admirals' Club at the end of C? I know they've reopened up to C28 and C27.

I remember being in the Admiral's Club faintly as a kid and how exciting it was with passengers headed to CDG, LGW, HNL, etc....

And yes, the smell - I agree. I can't put my finger on what it is aside from a unique odor. Not even a smell, just an odor.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:26 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
First flight is good for MCI people. I think the PDEW on STL-IND is something like 10 so not many people are flying it but if you are I guess IND-MCI-STL is about as good as it is going to get.


I usually go IND-ORD/MDW-STL which is much better. I and other people I know try to avoid MCI like the plague


Yea. I always avoid a layover at MCI but if it was a no plane change then I would be open to it.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:32 am

LambertMan wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Ah, so nice to visit the old STL this past week. It's been a while. Concourse C is nice but still just not same. :) It was still weird to pull in to C and look to the left and see all the Southwest tails lined up to the east.

However, it's nice that the terminal, specifically in the baggage claim area, hasn't lost the "smell."

Overall, the whole thing reminds me of a remodeled JC Penney, but you never know what will happen in all of this :)

Is there a way to get up onto the third level where the old Admirals' Club at the end of C? I know they've reopened up to C28 and C27.

I remember being in the Admiral's Club faintly as a kid and how exciting it was with passengers headed to CDG, LGW, HNL, etc....

And yes, the smell - I agree. I can't put my finger on what it is aside from a unique odor. Not even a smell, just an odor.


No, you can't get to that old club. C27/28 are only open when they are in use, otherwise I think it's blocked off (I think there is a door in the wall they open when in use). They are only used on a per turn basis. I have no clue what it looks like back there. I've tried to find pics online but I can't find anything. I never fly out of C so I can never get a look at it. They are supposed to be remodeling and reopening it through C30 in the near future though. I am not sure if work started on it yet.
 
777PHX
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:53 am

I'd love to know what they did with that old AC. It's probably a store room or something now.
 
stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:25 am

Is BLV-JAX getting chopped? It's not bookable beyond summer and it's not a seasonal route because it was operating in Jan.
BLV-Mesa AZ is not operating during the low months but it resumes later
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:13 am

stl07 wrote:
Is BLV-JAX getting chopped? It's not bookable beyond summer and it's not a seasonal route because it was operating in Jan.
BLV-Mesa AZ is not operating during the low months but it resumes later


I noticed that also. It was seasonal in 2016, year round 2017, I figured it might just be going back to seasonal this year. Maybe they also just haven't decided.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:45 am

Because there was O&D talk earlier in the week I saw some STL O&D stats today. 4th qtr 2016 vs 4th qtr 2017 STL grew by 525 passengers or 3.5%
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:23 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Because there was O&D talk earlier in the week I saw some STL O&D stats today. 4th qtr 2016 vs 4th qtr 2017 STL grew by 525 passengers or 3.5%

This is per day.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:21 pm

AA1167 had to return back to STL due to what sounds like smoke in the cockpit (I was listening to ATC. Fire trucks met it on the runway. MD-82
 
stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:08 am

So I noticed something interesting today - a day after PDX-STL ends, SEA-STL suddenly becomes 2x mainline instead of 1x main 1x rj. So maybe they just wanted to/ had to get rid of Horizon but couldn't justify 3x mainline to the northwest when it currently is 2x rj and 1x mainline
 
stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:14 pm

BLV-MYR got an extra day added in. Not the route I would have expected
 
stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:22 pm

Punta Gorda is at 4x and 5x in the summer too now
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:02 am

Jshank83 wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:


I would like to see them do something drastic like this but I am not optimistic it happens. They just modeled A and C semi recently and are getting ready to remodel/reopen more of C. I am not sure I see them spending money to tear down and rebuild after they just spent money "remodeling" those concourses, plus the work they have done in old D now E. You did say 20 years so maybe in 10 or 15 things change but it seems like they are content to just update some things. To be honest it probably wouldn't make a big difference on what air service some so it doesn't matter but I selfishly would like it just to be more open and have some better amenities.

I would be even be happy to see something like A and C connected as one long concourse by connecting them at the end of B. Then use the entrance to B as the security entrance. You can make an indoor plaza/food court/shops in that area.

Something like this. This is rough outline and you can make things bigger or smaller. I just have heard you can't really go north much for taxiway reasons. You could build the new center part while leaving the current terminals and not impact much, maybe 7 gates. You could move the ones impacted in C further down C or to D and you could move the impacted airline in A to C or D also.

Image


That's what they should have done after the tornado hit C, but IIRC the insurance did not cover a rebuild, only a refurb. But your diagram is exactly what should be happening, a la the PIT remodel but using the space STL has.
Ozark Flies Your Way, Coast To Coast And Border To Border.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:18 am

stl07 wrote:
Punta Gorda is at 4x and 5x in the summer too now


I'm still surprised VPS was the first destination to go daily from BLV. I thought it would be SFB
 
stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:31 am

Jshank83 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Punta Gorda is at 4x and 5x in the summer too now


I'm still surprised VPS was the first destination to go daily from BLV. I thought it would be SFB

Yea especially considering the fact that WN is already at daily to Panama city. But remember, Allegiant makes its profit from other sources of revenue, so the hotels/tourism industry or visit emerald coast may be giving them a sweeter deal in Destin.
 
gerstetm
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:44 am

STL posted about the new flights starting today...it said WN was up 113 daily departures. I figured that it was higher than that.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:46 pm

gerstetm wrote:
STL posted about the new flights starting today...it said WN was up 113 daily departures. I figured that it was higher than that.


It is up 5-10 a day from this time last year. I didn't start keeping track until August last year (although I know June was 110) so I don't know the exact numbers for April. I only have them down as 112 a day on my spreadsheet for right now so I need to see where they added one. Summer will be at 115 mon-fri and 119 on Sunday (unless another one was added here also)

spreadsheet if you are interested
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

EDIT: I was short a RDU flight. It is 113.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:10 pm

The airport posted a new gate layout map (with who leases each one).

WOW isn't listed but will be using E29.
They have Southwest under E40 but there is no jetway so that is a little interesting.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... n-2018.pdf

Also a new airfield layout map:
https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... p-2018.pdf
 
stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:18 pm

Jshank83 wrote:

WOW isn't listed but will be using E29.
They have Southwest under E40 but there is no jetway so that is a little interesting.

Expansion again? Where else could they even go?
 
jplatts
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:15 am

stl07 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

WOW isn't listed but will be using E29.
They have Southwest under E40 but there is no jetway so that is a little interesting.

Expansion again? Where else could they even go?


WN currently does 113 departures a day out of 14 gates at STL, and WN does have room to do at least 27 additional departures a day out of these 14 gates at STL.

The 10 largest WN stations currently without nonstop service to STL are BUR, SNA, IND, ABQ, SLC, RNO, ELP, PVD, BDL, and BUF.

WN did previously have nonstop service to ABQ, BHM, SDF, and SLC from STL, and WN could bring back nonstop service to ABQ, BHM, SDF, and SLC from STL. WN could also add nonstop service to BUF, CLT, CVG, ORF, and PVD from STL.
 
stl07
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:43 am

jplatts wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

WOW isn't listed but will be using E29.
They have Southwest under E40 but there is no jetway so that is a little interesting.

Expansion again? Where else could they even go?



The 10 largest WN stations currently without nonstop service to STL are BUR, SNA, IND, ABQ, SLC, RNO, ELP, PVD, BDL, and BUF.
.

SNA is out because of slots, IND and ELP are probably out BDL starts soon, maybe they could add BUF, BUR, or RNO but those seem like a stretch.

ABQ seems most likely, but nothing really seems extremely likely anymore (like san jose and west palm beach) now that STL has so many destinations.
 
Jshank83
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:04 am

jplatts wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

WOW isn't listed but will be using E29.
They have Southwest under E40 but there is no jetway so that is a little interesting.

Expansion again? Where else could they even go?


WN currently does 113 departures a day out of 14 gates at STL, and WN does have room to do at least 27 additional departures a day out of these 14 gates at STL.


They use 16 gates. Not 14. And they have access to about as many gates as they want.

They expanded to these gates this past summer. E40 is their gate they just don't use it yet so I am not counting it as the 17th gate. I'm also not convinced they will ever use it because of the location of it right next to E38. It is already tight with E34/36/38. I think they would just expand down the concourse further before they use it. I guess they could use it as an overflow gate incase planes get delayed, etc (how E36 is used now) but that is about it. I can't see them using all 4 at once.
 
ruskistl
Posts: 11
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Re: STL air service discussion - 2018

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:10 pm

I know people have speculated before about WN partnering with a European LCC and using STL as a connecting hub. I was thinking would partnering with a Chinese/Asian LCC be feasible, hypothetically? I know the China Hub was discussed because of STL's ideal location for connections to South America. Just a thought for all the vacant gates.
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