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VS4ever
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:38 pm

New schedule for ORH-PHL and a move to 2 daily in the OAG thread

ORH 6.18- 7.09 PHL
ORH 16.19- 17.10pm PHL

PHL 14.55-15.10 ORH
PHL 21.29-22.24 ORH

2nd daily starts early October, sorry no specific date as I am walking out the door
Flight times from google flights
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
iyerhari
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:28 pm

This was discussed few days back on the poor performance of B6 from JFK to ORH. See the last line —- expected DL from ORH to DTW ;)

I’m sure DL is currying up to favors from Massport for BOS...

https://worcestermag.com/2018/06/01/mas ... orts/60065
 
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Portlander
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:52 am

With Worcester slowly becoming relevant with AA and B6 service, I wonder if it will have much of a negative effect on Manchester's future enplanements due to the short distance between the two markets. I have friends in the Fitchburg area that were always loyal to MHT, but now will use ORH due to convenience along with JetBlue which they feel is a low cost upgrade over Southwest.

Also was told that renovations to PWM's older portion of the concourse (Gates 1-6) will begin this fall to visually connect it with the newer expansion. These improvements will include flooring, carpet, boarding gates, signage, seating, and lighting. Uniformity throughout the entire concourse will be a welcome sight and long overdue. In addition, a new jetway was recently added at Gate 2 (United) giving Portland a total of 10 along with an extended loading bridge with three gates for RJ's. First post so be easy on me!
 
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VS4ever
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:40 am

Portlander wrote:
With Worcester slowly becoming relevant with AA and B6 service, I wonder if it will have much of a negative effect on Manchester's future enplanements due to the short distance between the two markets. I have friends in the Fitchburg area that were always loyal to MHT, but now will use ORH due to convenience along with JetBlue which they feel is a low cost upgrade over Southwest.

Also was told that renovations to PWM's older portion of the concourse (Gates 1-6) will begin this fall to visually connect it with the newer expansion. These improvements will include flooring, carpet, boarding gates, signage, seating, and lighting. Uniformity throughout the entire concourse will be a welcome sight and long overdue. In addition, a new jetway was recently added at Gate 2 (United) giving Portland a total of 10 along with an extended loading bridge with three gates for RJ's. First post so be easy on me!


Welcome aboard, interesting points. ORH is really only becoming relevant because Massport decided to invest heavily in the infrastructure and need the payback on that investment. The general Consensus is that most of these flights are part of deals done for favors at Logan. We shall see. Now it’s over to the Worcester locale to see if they will support them. Your information about switching from MHT is curious but unsurprising given other comments I have seen on here. MHT is getting squeezed from both ends and ORH is going to pick up some of that now folks have options (especially if B6 get thenJFK flight sorted out in terms of reliability), if the rumored DL service to DTW pans out, now you have plenty of connecting ways to get almost anywhere from ORH. Amazing progress even if it’s potentially due to trade offs although good luck proving that.
Nice to see PWM investing too, ME will benefit from that as a state and it does appear the airlines are seeing growth opportunities up there. MHT on the other hand is rapidly becoming a 1 trick pony.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
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chrisnh
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:27 am

Years ago as an acknowledged MHT 'fan boy,' I lamented the precipitous fall-off after 2005. But nowadays I really don't care much because dealing with Logan is acceptable for me. The PreFlight parking is good (my company pays) and the bus from Tyngsboro is quite good unless you have a REAL early departure in which case the first one gets down there too late. The infrastructure at MHT (runways, instrumentation, terminal, access roads, etc) is all befitting of a place that SHOULD see more service. I harp on MHT management for what appears to be apathy and inaction on their part. They draw big paychecks for basically taking a 'resigned to their fate' posture.
 
tomaheath
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:13 pm

chrisnh wrote:
Years ago as an acknowledged MHT 'fan boy,' I lamented the precipitous fall-off after 2005. But nowadays I really don't care much because dealing with Logan is acceptable for me. The PreFlight parking is good (my company pays) and the bus from Tyngsboro is quite good unless you have a REAL early departure in which case the first one gets down there too late. The infrastructure at MHT (runways, instrumentation, terminal, access roads, etc) is all befitting of a place that SHOULD see more service. I harp on MHT management for what appears to be apathy and inaction on their part. They draw big paychecks for basically taking a 'resigned to their fate' posture.

At least the biggest paycheck drawer has “retired”.
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:54 pm

chrisnh wrote:
Years ago as an acknowledged MHT 'fan boy,' I lamented the precipitous fall-off after 2005. But nowadays I really don't care much because dealing with Logan is acceptable for me. The PreFlight parking is good (my company pays) and the bus from Tyngsboro is quite good unless you have a REAL early departure in which case the first one gets down there too late. The infrastructure at MHT (runways, instrumentation, terminal, access roads, etc) is all befitting of a place that SHOULD see more service. I harp on MHT management for what appears to be apathy and inaction on their part. They draw big paychecks for basically taking a 'resigned to their fate' posture.

IMO B6s expansion and mostly WNs entrance into the Boston market, were the closing factor of MHT. I live closer to BOS than to MHT, but before WN entered BOS, many people including I would go up to MHT to fly WN to save money, also there were some destinations that were served on WN from MHT and not served from BOS. Now that WN flies to BOS and there are a lot more destinations served from BOS on low cost carriers, MHT has lost its competitive edge.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
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Portlander
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:40 pm

Thanks for the response VS4ever. Though I am loyal to PWM, I wish success for MHT, BVT and BGR as I find any mainline service in particular to northern New England a positive for the entire region. I'm a firm believer that Portland's recent growth was fueled by it's terminal expansion, increasing draw as a tourism gateway and more importantly it's 110 mile distance from Logan. Manchester is a little too close to Boston to maintain it's regional independence and progress at Worcester and Pease has contributed to it's decade long decline in enplanements. But it's excellent runways and other infrastructure improvements will always keep it viable commercially and I see continued growth in the cargo arena. Burlington has also benefited recently due to similar reasons as Portland, but like Bangor it's limitations will always be population/catchment driven. Wish PWM could have found another 400 ft to add to Runway 11/29 when it was lengthened years ago, the Maine Turnpike and the Fore River locations are really annoying! I guess if a A320 (full load?) can make it to Denver we'll be OK.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:32 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
chrisnh wrote:
Years ago as an acknowledged MHT 'fan boy,' I lamented the precipitous fall-off after 2005. But nowadays I really don't care much because dealing with Logan is acceptable for me. The PreFlight parking is good (my company pays) and the bus from Tyngsboro is quite good unless you have a REAL early departure in which case the first one gets down there too late. The infrastructure at MHT (runways, instrumentation, terminal, access roads, etc) is all befitting of a place that SHOULD see more service. I harp on MHT management for what appears to be apathy and inaction on their part. They draw big paychecks for basically taking a 'resigned to their fate' posture.

IMO B6s expansion and mostly WNs entrance into the Boston market, were the closing factor of MHT. I live closer to BOS than to MHT, but before WN entered BOS, many people including I would go up to MHT to fly WN to save money, also there were some destinations that were served on WN from MHT and not served from BOS. Now that WN flies to BOS and there are a lot more destinations served from BOS on low cost carriers, MHT has lost its competitive edge.


Agreed, I am surprised that G4 or F9 never weighed in after WN decided to split ops to BOS, if it's truly a money thing, that would have backfilled some of the capacity at the rates folks wanted to pay. BUT.... they never did, which suggests other factors are at play, which leads to the apathy and inaction.
Why BOS has been so successful in the last few years was the decision by Massport to go all-in with it, expand the International to Breaking point and the economy turn around, so that pax numbers have gone through the roof, they marketed BOS as a transit point very successfully and it shows. Think back to 6 years ago and the numbers were minute compared to what they are currently running at, that coupled with WN's changed strategy in going into the major airports, B6's enormous growth to #1 at BOS and what you have is a perfect storm for MHT. That said, why didn't it happen at PVD too? I mean there was leakage, but not at anywhere near the same levels and PVD is doing very nicely at the moment.
The competitive edge has been lost, it could return with the right airline trying its luck, but the answer is not going to be WN, unless they decide to pull back from BOS, which now they are there is highly unlikely to happen. The only way MHT grows again with WN is if WN go on an expansion drive, because they won't have the gate space at BOS to do that.

It's a critical time for MHT, with PWM to the North, BOS to the South and now ORH even raising it's head above the wall due to the Massport investment, it's being pressured from all sides, they either come out swinging or be destined to be a bit part player for many years to come and god forbid someone walks into PSM and tries to expand...
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:25 pm

VS4ever wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
chrisnh wrote:
Years ago as an acknowledged MHT 'fan boy,' I lamented the precipitous fall-off after 2005. But nowadays I really don't care much because dealing with Logan is acceptable for me. The PreFlight parking is good (my company pays) and the bus from Tyngsboro is quite good unless you have a REAL early departure in which case the first one gets down there too late. The infrastructure at MHT (runways, instrumentation, terminal, access roads, etc) is all befitting of a place that SHOULD see more service. I harp on MHT management for what appears to be apathy and inaction on their part. They draw big paychecks for basically taking a 'resigned to their fate' posture.

IMO B6s expansion and mostly WNs entrance into the Boston market, were the closing factor of MHT. I live closer to BOS than to MHT, but before WN entered BOS, many people including I would go up to MHT to fly WN to save money, also there were some destinations that were served on WN from MHT and not served from BOS. Now that WN flies to BOS and there are a lot more destinations served from BOS on low cost carriers, MHT has lost its competitive edge.


Agreed, I am surprised that G4 or F9 never weighed in after WN decided to split ops to BOS, if it's truly a money thing, that would have backfilled some of the capacity at the rates folks wanted to pay. BUT.... they never did, which suggests other factors are at play, which leads to the apathy and inaction.
Why BOS has been so successful in the last few years was the decision by Massport to go all-in with it, expand the International to Breaking point and the economy turn around, so that pax numbers have gone through the roof, they marketed BOS as a transit point very successfully and it shows. Think back to 6 years ago and the numbers were minute compared to what they are currently running at, that coupled with WN's changed strategy in going into the major airports, B6's enormous growth to #1 at BOS and what you have is a perfect storm for MHT. That said, why didn't it happen at PVD too? I mean there was leakage, but not at anywhere near the same levels and PVD is doing very nicely at the moment.
The competitive edge has been lost, it could return with the right airline trying its luck, but the answer is not going to be WN, unless they decide to pull back from BOS, which now they are there is highly unlikely to happen. The only way MHT grows again with WN is if WN go on an expansion drive, because they won't have the gate space at BOS to do that.

It's a critical time for MHT, with PWM to the North, BOS to the South and now ORH even raising it's head above the wall due to the Massport investment, it's being pressured from all sides, they either come out swinging or be destined to be a bit part player for many years to come and god forbid someone walks into PSM and tries to expand...

I pretty much agree with each of these postings. It really does make me wonder why MHT and not PVD. At lot is being made about PWM competing better with MHT than in the past, but everyone seems to forget that BDL is around the same distance from PVD that separates MHT and PWM. The big difference in my opinion are that Massport has done a much better job drawing leakage from NH than it has from the RI area. Further, the airfares at MHT are really not low enough to be competitive to many locations. Yes, you can find cases where MHT is the same, or even cheaper than BOS, but BOS wins almost every time, especially close in dates and especially if you want flight selection including nonstop options. WN's fares at MHT do not provide as large a bucket of low fares that WN offer in BOS and the low fare bucket often stays open closer to the travel date at BOS. WN in BOS has to compete for passengers, and at MHT, well they only have to fill their planes to 80+%. And if WN cuts another flight from MHT, what remains will still fill to 80+% and the low fare bucket fills even faster.
 
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chrisnh
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:46 pm

I guess I agree that MHT did in fact 'punch out of its class' during the days when UA sent 757s there. Happily, I flew on them many times. But when you look at the metro area sizes, we are where we should be: PVD is 38, PWM is 105, and MHT is 131. Even so, there are factors that put an asterisk next to these figures (Anchorage is 134, as an example. And Spartanburg sits at 153 with more service than MHT).
 
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Revelation
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:48 pm

chrisnh wrote:
The infrastructure at MHT (runways, instrumentation, terminal, access roads, etc) is all befitting of a place that SHOULD see more service.
MHT isn't the first or only airport to invest a lot based on a business model that was working well and was presumed to do even better in the future but in the end did not. Guess I'm glad they didn't try to grow on the scale PIT did.

I often wonder if SEA will be the next airport that invested too much in itself when things were looking good, but by the time it all gets built out it'll seem to have been a waste. I guess I'm presuming DL's friskiness with regard to SEA won't last, but I could be wrong about that.

VS4ever wrote:
Why BOS has been so successful in the last few years was the decision by Massport to go all-in with it, expand the International to Breaking point and the economy turn around, so that pax numbers have gone through the roof, they marketed BOS as a transit point very successfully and it shows. Think back to 6 years ago and the numbers were minute compared to what they are currently running at, that coupled with WN's changed strategy in going into the major airports, B6's enormous growth to #1 at BOS and what you have is a perfect storm for MHT.

Yes, their willingness to be aggressive with international was a strong positive move but in my mind the enabler of the perfect storm was all the bankruptcy and consolidation that happened before then, in the mid-late 2000s. It was a big negative for BOS for a few years, but it forced them to downsize to a more efficient core and opened up all the space needed to allow WN and B6 to grow. DL pretty much walked away from the big terminal project just as it was almost done and the airline consolidation really allowed some pretty underutilized gates to be repurposed.

In hind sight, MHT was benefiting from the fact that BOS was landlocked and that BOS had a lot of long term leases held by legacy airlines that were competing strongly with each other so LCCs like WN and B6 could not enter the BOS market directly. All the bankruptcies and consolidations hurt BOS in the short term but now on the rebound BOS is thriving and MHT is sucking wind.

Portlander wrote:
Thanks for the response VS4ever. Though I am loyal to PWM, I wish success for MHT, BVT and BGR as I find any mainline service in particular to northern New England a positive for the entire region. I'm a firm believer that Portland's recent growth was fueled by it's terminal expansion, increasing draw as a tourism gateway and more importantly it's 110 mile distance from Logan. Manchester is a little too close to Boston to maintain it's regional independence and progress at Worcester and Pease has contributed to it's decade long decline in enplanements. But it's excellent runways and other infrastructure improvements will always keep it viable commercially and I see continued growth in the cargo arena.

Agree with all of the above.

I'd love to see MHT have better utilization, but I fully understand why it currently doesn't. I agree PWM has done good work in enabling growth, and it's hard to foresee a scenario where they would shrink, but then again, I don't think anyone saw MHT's collapse coming, so...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
iyerhari
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:17 am

Revelation wrote:
chrisnh wrote:
I often wonder if SEA will be the next airport that invested too much in itself when things were looking good, but by the time it all gets built out it'll seem to have been a waste. I guess I'm presuming DL's friskiness with regard to SEA won't last, but I could be wrong about that.

VS4ever wrote:
Why BOS has been so successful in the last few years was the decision by Massport to go all-in with it, expand the International to Breaking point and the economy turn around, so that pax numbers have gone through the roof, they marketed BOS as a transit point very successfully and it shows.

Yes, their willingness to be aggressive with international was a strong positive move but in my mind the enabler of the perfect storm was all the bankruptcy and consolidation that happened before then, in the mid-late 2000s. It was a big negative for BOS for a few years, but it forced them to downsize to a more efficient core and opened up all the space needed to allow WN and B6 to grow. DL pretty much walked away from the big terminal project just as it was almost done and the airline consolidation really allowed some pretty underutilized gates to be repurposed.

In hind sight, MHT was benefiting from the fact that BOS was landlocked and that BOS had a lot of long term leases held by legacy airlines that were competing strongly with each other so LCCs like WN and B6 could not enter the BOS market directly. All the bankruptcies and consolidations hurt BOS in the short term but now on the rebound BOS is thriving and MHT is sucking wind.

Portlander wrote:
Thanks for the response VS4ever. Though I am loyal to PWM, I wish success for MHT, BVT and BGR as I find any mainline service in particular to northern New England a positive for the entire region. I'm a firm believer that Portland's recent growth was fueled by it's terminal expansion, increasing draw as a tourism gateway and more importantly it's 110 mile distance from Logan. Manchester is a little too close to Boston to maintain it's regional independence and progress at Worcester and Pease has contributed to it's decade long decline in enplanements. But it's excellent runways and other infrastructure improvements will always keep it viable commercially and I see continued growth in the cargo arena.

Agree with all of the above.

I'd love to see MHT have better utilization, but I fully understand why it currently doesn't. I agree PWM has done good work in enabling growth, and it's hard to foresee a scenario where they would shrink, but then again, I don't think anyone saw MHT's collapse coming, so...


It is incorrect to compare SEA - SEA benefits significantly from a large business community thanks to AMZN, Boeing etc. They are ranked #9 in 2017 and have steadily grown. DL saw an opportunity in taking over AS but it is looking not that easy for them. In retrospect, DL sees an opportunity in BOS as B6 is a leader but it is not high as compared as AS at SEA.

IN retrospect, IMO BOS has always been the prime driver for most of New England and there is really no airport in the entire region that comes close to Logan. The recession times were tough and coupled with high fuel prices, legacy carriers retrenched and that was a great opportunity to B6. PVD, PWM, BDL are doing good but if you ask the passengers including business pax for options and I know from people who travel a lot, they end up taking BOS. No questions for international flights - there are some options available with PVD or BDL but it will barely ever match the breadth of Logan. IMO, for the next foreseeable future, and with a global and a busy economy, BOS will be a significant leader with the other airports being a distant 2nd position.
 
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Revelation
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:06 am

iyerhari wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I often wonder if SEA will be the next airport that invested too much in itself when things were looking good, but by the time it all gets built out it'll seem to have been a waste. I guess I'm presuming DL's friskiness with regard to SEA won't last, but I could be wrong about that.

It is incorrect to compare SEA - SEA benefits significantly from a large business community thanks to AMZN, Boeing etc. They are ranked #9 in 2017 and have steadily grown. DL saw an opportunity in taking over AS but it is looking not that easy for them. In retrospect, DL sees an opportunity in BOS as B6 is a leader but it is not high as compared as AS at SEA.

Actually I didn't really intend to compare SEA to MHT or PIT or anyone else, I just wondered if they've invested too much in themselves when things were looking good, but by the time it all gets built out it'll seem to have been a waste. Yes, I know SEA is a wonderful and vibrant place and one of my favorites, but I wonder if its build-up will end up being over-build in the long term. Whatever combat is happening between DL, AS, B6 and others will eventually settle out. I'm not sure the next 10 years for Boeing or AMZN will look the same as the last ten. What goes up tends to come down. I guess we'll see in time.

iyerhari wrote:
IN retrospect, IMO BOS has always been the prime driver for most of New England and there is really no airport in the entire region that comes close to Logan.

I agree. The only real hope for surrounding airports is that international demand gets large enough to push out domestic service, or if runways and ramps become so congested that delays become a real problem.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
PortlandMEguy
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:03 pm

First off I'm new here glad I found this forum!

I know that Portland Jetport just got Frontier but are there any other new airlines or routes going to Portland? I think Allegiant Air would be a good airline to fly to PWM.
 
Fex180
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:55 pm

PortlandMEguy wrote:
First off I'm new here glad I found this forum!

I know that Portland Jetport just got Frontier but are there any other new airlines or routes going to Portland? I think Allegiant Air would be a good airline to fly to PWM.


Welcome!

No airlines have announced new routes from PWM since Frontier. You’re right that PWM is hot right now, but I highly doubt Allegiant would look too hard at PWM since they fly to Portsmouth (PSM) less than an hours drive away, and Bangor (BGR) to the north,

The most realistic next steps for the Jetport would probably be :

Delta to MSP

Southwest making PWM-MDW daily

AA making PWM-ORD year round.

JetBlue to either MCO or FLL

Frontier going year-round at PWM

Elite connecting PWM with another random spot in Florida

mayyybeeeee AA to DFW or MIA but that’s a stretch, at least right now.

and if there’s ever anything new announced you can be sure it will come up here!
 
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VS4ever
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:12 pm

PortlandMEguy wrote:
First off I'm new here glad I found this forum!

I know that Portland Jetport just got Frontier but are there any other new airlines or routes going to Portland? I think Allegiant Air would be a good airline to fly to PWM.


Welcome aboard, nice to see some new blood around here. I'm feeling rather elderly on this site at 14 years...

That said, you will definitely hear about new stuff on here, there's a ton of different threads about all manner of things, but you have found the one specifically focused on the region and ME included. The one to look out for each Sunday morning is the OAG thread run by enilria, he posts all the weekly changes on flights and routes, it's summarized because the work to produce it is huge, but definitely spawns all manner of conversations as a result.

But feel free to dive in and if you hear anything. share it, just make sure you add commentary, the admins on here, want posts that provide commentary along with links, rather than just the links, so that it drives conversation.

As mentioned above, unlikely G4 will dive in, because they have a base albeit rather small down the road at PSM, the smart money is on US3 growth and if B6 have an appetite to go North, some runs to MCO/FLL and maybe JFK as connectors. as I think I have said previously I am loving the fact that the airports on this thread with the exception of MHT are getting some love these days and expanding. It's important for the regional economy and for future prospects for the region as BOS gets tapped out for space.

Again Welcome, and enjoy!
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
PortlandMEguy
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:27 pm

Thank you for the welcome! I was excited to see Frontier come to Portland since I take my kids to visit family in Florida 3-4 times a year. We often fly on Allegiant out of Portsmouth so I always dreamt of them coming to Portland, since we live so close to the Jetport.

It's exciting to see the airport growing and I always want to know what's next. I know JetBlue used to go from PWM to Orlando but It seems like Southwest has taken that market from them.

I bought round trip tickets from Portland to Denver on Frontier and it looked like a lot of those flights are selling well so I hope Frontier expands in Portland
 
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Portlander
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:39 pm

Agree with Fex180, I don't think PWM needs or wants Allegiant. They've had issues with maintenance, inconsistent schedules and have earned a "fly by night" reputation. The airline tends to feed on underserved second and third tier markets and have been known to pull the plug quickly if the business model isn't successful. I don't fault them for their practices because they have a right to be profitable and have excelled with charter/casino/vacation tours historically.

Would be great to restore service to MSP, now it's more of a limited equipment/feasibility issue but it may be workable once Delta begins adding the Bombardier C Class jets to it's inventory down the road. This could also lead to a daily year round mainline flight to DTW instead of the almost seasonal 717 service. I feel better about SWA servicing ORD year round than JetBlue adding a future Florida route. Could see JetBlue eventually integrate an "early push" Airbus to JFK and I'm hoping Frontier will remove the seasonal tag on Denver and Orlando, not sure RDU will work long term. Am pleased to see United finally stepping up with some mainline service, the new jetway at Gate 2 must have helped! Air Canada to Toronto or Montreal tops my my wish list and would make the international in our name relevant, Elite to Halifax was doomed from the start.

Anyone know how the bookings are going for Frontier's flights in July to DEN and RDU and August for MCO? I'll be at the observation lot next month to check out the two A320 arrivals.
 
Fex180
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:48 pm

Portlander wrote:
Would be great to restore service to MSP, now it's more of a limited equipment/feasibility issue but it may be workable once Delta begins adding the Bombardier C Class jets to it's inventory down the road. This could also lead to a daily year round mainline flight to DTW instead of the almost seasonal 717 service. I feel better about SWA servicing ORD year round than JetBlue adding a future Florida route. Could see JetBlue eventually integrate an "early push" Airbus to JFK and I'm hoping Frontier will remove the seasonal tag on Denver and Orlando, not sure RDU will work long term. Am pleased to see United finally stepping up with some mainline service, the new jetway at Gate 2 must have helped! Air Canada to Toronto or Montreal tops my my wish list and would make the international in our name relevant, Elite to Halifax was doomed from the start.

Anyone know how the bookings are going for Frontier's flights in July to DEN and RDU and August for MCO? I'll be at the observation lot next month to check out the two A320 arrivals.


I think you mean WN serving Midway (MDW) Not ORD. Seasonal Saturdy PWM-MDW begins next week, but regular Chicago flights are WN's best path to grow at PWM.

(Chicago has always been oddly under-served from PWM. For a long time it's only been UA running 3-4x daily with 50 seat RJ's, AA starts seasonal 2x daily PWM-ORD tomorrow and those flights are pretty much booked solid from what I can tell )

Personally I don't think there will be any Canadian destinations in the foreseeable future. Elite's PWM - Halifax did quite poorly (average load factors around 30%) and Air Canada couldn't even sustain PWM-YYZ with a tiny Beech-1900.


I've looked at some of the PWM-DEN flights and they seem to be selling well based on seat availability. Definitely wouldn't be surprised if that came back with an enhanced schedule.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:17 am

Thanks Fex180, good catch! All of these airline/airport/equipment acronyms can get overwhelming. You are probably correct with PWM to Canada, poor marketing and "prop" aircraft didn't help with the YYZ route. What's your thoughts on WN's growth path from Portland? Is Houston feasible, runway length would rule out Phoenix and Las Vegas which was not an issue for MHT.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:27 am

VS4ever wrote:
PortlandMEguy wrote:
First off I'm new here glad I found this forum!

I know that Portland Jetport just got Frontier but are there any other new airlines or routes going to Portland? I think Allegiant Air would be a good airline to fly to PWM.


Welcome aboard, nice to see some new blood around here. I'm feeling rather elderly on this site at 14 years...

That said, you will definitely hear about new stuff on here, there's a ton of different threads about all manner of things, but you have found the one specifically focused on the region and ME included. The one to look out for each Sunday morning is the OAG thread run by enilria, he posts all the weekly changes on flights and routes, it's summarized because the work to produce it is huge, but definitely spawns all manner of conversations as a result.

But feel free to dive in and if you hear anything. share it, just make sure you add commentary, the admins on here, want posts that provide commentary along with links, rather than just the links, so that it drives conversation.

As mentioned above, unlikely G4 will dive in, because they have a base albeit rather small down the road at PSM, the smart money is on US3 growth and if B6 have an appetite to go North, some runs to MCO/FLL and maybe JFK as connectors. as I think I have said previously I am loving the fact that the airports on this thread with the exception of MHT are getting some love these days and expanding. It's important for the regional economy and for future prospects for the region as BOS gets tapped out for space.

Again Welcome, and enjoy!

Welcome,
Another cool thread, if you are interested, is the Boston Aviation thread, that one is specific to just BOS, but if you are interested in BOS it would be great to see you there.
NickolayAv
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:33 am

Portlander wrote:
Thanks Fex180, good catch! All of these airline/airport/equipment acronyms can get overwhelming. You are probably correct with PWM to Canada, poor marketing and "prop" aircraft didn't help with the YYZ route. What's your thoughts on WN's growth path from Portland? Is Houston feasible, runway length would rule out Phoenix and Las Vegas which was not an issue for MHT.


I doubt we would see WN expand beyond BWI, MDW and MCO any time soon. But they've done almost nothing at PWM since they took over from AirTran despite growth in numbers and load factors. It's only a matter of time until they look to connect PWM to their largest hub with daily service.

PWM doesn't really have a runway length issue. 11/29 is perfectly capable of handling transcon flights should the need arise. A few other airports around the country have runways even shorter than PWM which regularly handle traffic from the opposite coast. DCA (Washington Reagan), BUR (Burbank) and SNA (Orange County) for instance. Hell, 4L/22R at BOS is only about 500 feet longer than 11/29 at PWM and it regularly handles widebody departures to Europe and beyond.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:05 am

And runways at LGA are also 200 foot shorter than PWM. I realize that the cooler ambient temperatures and low altitude are positive factors in Portland's 7200 feet being adequate for most newer aircraft. But I've been told that a fully loaded aircraft topped off with fuel on a hot summer day would make longer distances like Phoenix or Las Vegas difficult especially due to PWM being further east than markets to the south?
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:13 am

Portlander wrote:
And runways at LGA are also 200 foot shorter than PWM. I realize that the cooler ambient temperatures and low altitude are positive factors in Portland's 7200 feet being adequate for most newer aircraft. But I've been told that a fully loaded aircraft topped off with fuel on a hot summer day would make longer distances like Phoenix or Las Vegas difficult especially due to PWM being further east than markets to the south?


It could be an issue in rare circumstances, but probably not enough to hinder service should it ever be proposed...but realistically PWM is a long way off from any regular transcon service. I could semi-realistically see AA going PWM-DFW not only because it's their largest hub, but also because Tyler Tech maintains its two largest corporate facilities in Yarmouth and Plano, TX just outside of Dallas. But I think F9 serving DEN might be as far west as PWM reaches for a while.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:31 am

Thanks for your input and sound logic!
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:32 am

Portlander wrote:
And runways at LGA are also 200 foot shorter than PWM. I realize that the cooler ambient temperatures and low altitude are positive factors in Portland's 7200 feet being adequate for most newer aircraft. But I've been told that a fully loaded aircraft topped off with fuel on a hot summer day would make longer distances like Phoenix or Las Vegas difficult especially due to PWM being further east than markets to the south?


Like Fex said, might be the case on the hottest few days of the year, but doubt it would be problematic for the other 362 or so days. And if (I realize we're speaking hypotheticals) they can make money and have payload restriction-free service available on 99% of the days in a calendar year, I think it would be worth it to them.

That being said...

Fex180 wrote:
Realistically PWM is a long way off from any regular transcon service. I could semi-realistically see AA going PWM-DFW not only because it's their largest hub, but also because Tyler Tech maintains its two largest corporate facilities in Yarmouth and Plano, TX just outside of Dallas. But I think F9 serving DEN might be as far west as PWM reaches for a while.


I would agree with this. Just not enough commercial drive to the majority of west coast spots, although if IDEXX/WEX/etc. was to open up a big office up out west in addition to Maine HQ that may change.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:48 am

NickolayAv wrote:
IMO B6s expansion and mostly WNs entrance into the Boston market, were the closing factor of MHT. I live closer to BOS than to MHT, but before WN entered BOS, many people including I would go up to MHT to fly WN to save money, also there were some destinations that were served on WN from MHT and not served from BOS. Now that WN flies to BOS and there are a lot more destinations served from BOS on low cost carriers, MHT has lost its competitive edge.


I would agree that WN going to BOS (and B6's BOS expansion) was the biggest factor in MHT's demise — particularly before B6 came to town, MHT had really the only low-cost service for Northern New England. Once Southwest was gone, the main draw — aside from perhaps less traffic — to go to MHT was gone.

That being said, I would also imagine that PWM's attraction of LCCs had an effect as well, if not to the same extent. Maine is not a big state population-wise, but Cumberland and York Counties (the southern part of the state) have around half-a-million people; my fellow "Flatlanders" may think otherwise, but Southern Maine has some "decent-sized" towns and cities. Nothing like Massachusetts, but there is running water/electricity/Amtrak/etc. (I grew up in Maine, and still have family there whom I go to see every month or so, so I think I am allowed to make those jokes. :duck: )

Anyway, re: PWM-MHT: during my childhood — I knew many, many Mainers who flew out of Manchester due to it being significantly cheaper than Portland. A lack of LCC competition gave legacies the freedom to charge whatever they wanted, and while some people (usually those from Central Maine up) would suck it up and go to PWM, many folks in Southern Maine would leak to MHT.

Then DH ( :tombstone: ) came to town and while it ceased operations after less than two years B6 replaced it soon after. Made PWM a bit more affordable as the legacies realized they couldn't just charge whatever. Then AT/WN came along and suddenly PWM had more LCC airlines (I say airlines and not service since MHT has many more year-round WN flights than PWM's year-round service to JFK and BWI by B6 and WN, respectively) than MHT. I'm sure they're out there, but I can't say I know of many people who still drive to MHT. Even if PWM decreased leakage to MHT by, say, 10%, that's (based on 2017 numbers) 170,000 people taken away from MHT's numbers and added to PWM's — a 340,000 pax swing. Definitely approximating, but when every person lost by MHT is one gained by PWM, that's a "two pax swing" per person. Can add up quickly.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:32 am

33lspotter wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
IMO B6s expansion and mostly WNs entrance into the Boston market, were the closing factor of MHT. I live closer to BOS than to MHT, but before WN entered BOS, many people including I would go up to MHT to fly WN to save money, also there were some destinations that were served on WN from MHT and not served from BOS. Now that WN flies to BOS and there are a lot more destinations served from BOS on low cost carriers, MHT has lost its competitive edge.



That being said, I would also imagine that PWM's attraction of LCCs had an effect as well, if not to the same extent. Maine is not a big state population-wise, but Cumberland and York Counties (the southern part of the state) have around half-a-million people; my fellow "Flatlanders" may think otherwise, but Southern Maine has some "decent-sized" towns and cities. Nothing like Massachusetts, but there is running water/electricity/Amtrak/etc. (I grew up in Maine, and still have family there whom I go to see every month or so, so I think I am allowed to make those jokes. :duck: )



I think even we Mainers underestimate Portland. Sure the city ITSELF is fairly small, but statistically Portland is actually the largest urban area and metro region in Northern New England. There's also the fact that, for a long time, most of Maine (including the southern coast) was an economic backwater. That only really started changing in the pat 20 years or so. Now Portland as a DESTINATION is hot, for both business and pleasure, and that's been a huge win for PWM.
The amount of growth and investment happening on the peninsula right now blows Manchester out of the water. I live on Munjoy hill and I can see 3 major construction sites from my bedroom window.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:56 am

Fex180 wrote:
I think even we Mainers underestimate Portland. Sure the city ITSELF is fairly small, but statistically Portland is actually the largest urban area and metro region in Northern New England. There's also the fact that, for a long time, most of Maine (including the southern coast) was an economic backwater. That only really started changing in the pat 20 years or so. Now Portland as a DESTINATION is hot, for both business and pleasure, and that's been a huge win for PWM.


Agreed, it really has evolved a ton in the last 20 years. I guess growing up there during that time I never saw the change in out-of-state tourism, but I do know that IDEXX and a number of other corporations (using the term loosely) have really taken off during that time. Either way, anecdotally I certainly hear a lot of people talk about (how they are) going up to Portland for a weekend trip. I am sure MA folk have done that for years and years, but the prominence of these discussions is really what has struck me.

Fex180 wrote:
The amount of growth and investment happening on the peninsula right now blows Manchester out of the water. I live on Munjoy hill and I can see 3 major construction sites from my bedroom window.


Devil's Advocate: Manchester's population is above 100,000, and NH has another city bigger than Portland, too, in Nashua. Perhaps those two places are "more maxed out" than Portland? I am not disputing Portland's emergence; just trying to look at it vis-a-vis Manchester.

Clarification: In post #278, I said "once WN was gone," and it would appear I meant "from MHT." I did not mean "from MHT"; I meant to say "Once the uniqueness factor of having WN only at MHT (and not at BOS) had gone."
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:09 am

^ Well said, Portland is a boom town currently. The amount of projects under construction along with other developments preparing to break ground are impressive. At least 13 new structures have been built in the area bounded by Franklin, Newbury, Thames and Hancock Streets during the past decade which I have dubbed the "New Port". Portland's city population may hit 70,000 during the next census (maxed out @ 78K during WWII) but it is limited by only 22 square miles where Manchester covers 32 square miles. If we could only annex South Portland like some cities in the south and west (entire counties) get away with!
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:25 am

Portlander wrote:
At least 13 new structures have been built in the area bounded by Franklin, Newbury, Thames and Hancock Streets during the past decade which I have dubbed the "New Port".


Didn't know that! Wow.

Portlander wrote:
If we could only annex South Portland like some cities in the south and west (entire counties) get away with!


:rotfl:
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:16 am

Although WN hasn’t ‘done much’ as far as adding flights at PWM, they have been using the -800 more regularly. So that represents a small increase. One thing I’ve railed about a lot is how WN seems way more focused on north-south flying than east-west. As a business traveler with trips to the west coast, I can’t rely on the MHT-MDW route in the winter: both cities are weather-risky. MHT did have WN non-stops to LAS, PHX, DEN and all three are less risky cities to connect in during the winter.

Although I live in NH reasonably close to MHT, I have a family home on the coast in K’port. So actually I’m quite happy to see PWM blossoming.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:49 am

PortlandMEguy wrote:
Thank you for the welcome! I was excited to see Frontier come to Portland since I take my kids to visit family in Florida 3-4 times a year. We often fly on Allegiant out of Portsmouth so I always dreamt of them coming to Portland, since we live so close to the Jetport.

It's exciting to see the airport growing and I always want to know what's next. I know JetBlue used to go from PWM to Orlando but It seems like Southwest has taken that market from them.

I bought round trip tickets from Portland to Denver on Frontier and it looked like a lot of those flights are selling well so I hope Frontier expands in Portland


b6 ended PWM-MCO sometime in 2014 I think? But WN has run a Saturday flight to Orlando pretty reliably for about 3 years now.

I also noticed that Frontier flights to Denver seem to be selling well. I don't know about RDU, but my hunch is that it won't be as successful. Frontier has a reputation of "throwing darts" when opening new routes. My worry about F9 to MCO is that the schedule might doom it to failure. It's starting in August, just as summer vacation season is ending, and stopping for the season in November, before snowbirds and winter break season. Plus the flights departs PWM at 8pm and don't get to Orlando until 11:30.

chrisnh wrote:
MHT did have WN non-stops to LAS, PHX, DEN and all three are less risky cities to connect in during the winter.


When did WN end service to PHX an DEN? I remember LAS flights stayed around a while after WN opened in BOS, but I don't remember any other western service when I flew out of MHT during the mid 2000's
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:31 pm

33lspotter wrote:
I would agree that WN going to BOS (and B6's BOS expansion) was the biggest factor in MHT's demise — particularly before B6 came to town, MHT had really the only low-cost service for Northern New England. Once Southwest was gone, the main draw — aside from perhaps less traffic — to go to MHT was gone.

I'll point out that the main reason WN and B6 could expand at BOS was because the legacies went bankrupt and consolidated. Before that happened there was no feasible way for an LCC to get into BOS. Back when the Big 3 were the Big 6 they competed heavily, all gates were taken, and there's no free space at BOS to build more. After the BKs Massport had to deal with the transition from a very full airport to a pretty empty airport. The Big 6 became the Big 3 so a lot of routes that used to be in place just for competitive purposes were eliminated, and the survivors operated a much leaner schedule than pre-BK. Massport had a whole lot of inventory (gates) dumped on them in a short period of time. B6 was the initial benefactor, and was able to grow in a very unusual way: whenever they needed a gate for growth, one was available! That is an incredibly rare thing, and probably won't ever happen again unless there's yet another major economic spin/stall event that drives it. B6 was able to grow organically and robustly, and WN noticed what was going on and wanted in, and this is where we find ourselves today.

I agree with your post regarding PWM having meaningful sway on MHT's downfall. As above, it was a perfect storm of bad tidings. All glory is fleeting.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:35 pm

Nashua has truly benefited from the exodus of suburban Bostonians looking for greener pastures and a bang for buck lifestyle. Though it's current population is 87,000, Nashua's city proper was built and planned for an urban center of closer to 35,000 which is similar to the the size of Bangor. Where Nashua feels and appears much smaller than it's population, Portland appears and feels much larger than it really is. Nashua has a quaint bedroom community vibe and has actually transformed it's main drag into a pleasant area of shops and restaurants.

Back to airport related topics. I think Manchester will eventually recover after years of declining service and enplanements. There are only two airlines (WN,DL) utilizing mainline aircraft currently which will allow an airline like Spirit or Sun Country to come in and fill a huge void in a previously successful market. The infrastructure and available gates are in place and I'm sure whatever airline selects MHT will get an amazing lease deal!
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:51 pm

Portlander wrote:
Nashua has truly benefited from the exodus of suburban Bostonians looking for greener pastures and a bang for buck lifestyle. Though it's current population is 87,000, Nashua's city proper was built and planned for an urban center of closer to 35,000 which is similar to the the size of Bangor. Where Nashua feels and appears much smaller than it's population, Portland appears and feels much larger than it really is. Nashua has a quaint bedroom community vibe and has actually transformed it's main drag into a pleasant area of shops and restaurants.

Not sure why you threw that in, but it's a pretty decent summation, although it does down play the townie element which is stronger than you might think. My joke is I've been temporarily living in the area for over 25 years now. I came to town with a six month contract for a consulting gig and haven't left since, mainly because of uber-convenience ( very important in the old days, less so now that AMZN can put whatever you want on your doorstep ), great bang-for-the-buck, and relaxed, relatively low-crime suburban lifestyle. I guess I would have to add to the summation that it does have an active criminal element, some townies and some imports. Not as bad as many other places, but ignore it at your peril. The town isn't affluent enough yet to have pushed out the riff-raff. Given the lack of self-gentrification, we could use a nice wave of urban renewal or a great big fire in the right neighborhoods, but that's not in the cards.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:23 pm

I would like to wonder what is going to happen to Allegiant in BGR and PSM with the introduction of Frontier to PWM. I know a lot of people in the Bangor/New Brunswick(Canada) use BGR to PIE and Sanford due to no direct service to those markets from PWM and cost. Now if Frontier markets its MCO runs and adds Tampa and other Florida locations it will draw from BGR and PSM even though the flight leaves late. It allows people driving from Bangor and Canada to fly at a later time than 6am out of PWM. I am sure that slot times at MCO will change to allow an earlier time at some point. BGR has had it best passenger counts for the past year also due to Acadia National Park and Canadians using the airport. PWM did approach allegiant, but allegiant was not interested because of JetBlue and SWA at PWM. Frontier was going to start Dulles from PWM 3 years ago but never started it. PVD has allegiant, jetblue, frontier, swa...I would never think they would go to PVD...
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:26 pm

One thing to consider is that the rise of B6 and the encroachment into big-city airports by WN came at a time when the legacy carriers weren't in a position to fight back. The 'big guys' were just trying to survive, and they didn't have the resources to combat the upstarts. Pre-2005 both B6 (which didn't even exist) and WN would have been in the crosshairs. But after 2005 both carriers sensed an opportunity and seized it. Of course, no one really thought that B6 would build up JFK and practically do the same thing a mere 200 miles north. But they did, and here we are.
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:38 pm

Revelation, brought up Nashua because 331spotter mentioned the city in an earlier post. Cities/downtowns/skyscrapers is one of my other hobbies, excellent observation on your end!
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:22 pm

Revelation wrote:
I'll point out that the main reason WN and B6 could expand at BOS was because the legacies went bankrupt and consolidated. Before that happened there was no feasible way for an LCC to get into BOS. Back when the Big 3 were the Big 6 they competed heavily, all gates were taken, and there's no free space at BOS to build more. After the BKs Massport had to deal with the transition from a very full airport to a pretty empty airport. The Big 6 became the Big 3 so a lot of routes that used to be in place just for competitive purposes were eliminated, and the survivors operated a much leaner schedule than pre-BK. Massport had a whole lot of inventory (gates) dumped on them in a short period of time. B6 was the initial benefactor, and was able to grow in a very unusual way: whenever they needed a gate for growth, one was available! That is an incredibly rare thing, and probably won't ever happen again unless there's yet another major economic spin/stall event that drives it. B6 was able to grow organically and robustly, and WN noticed what was going on and wanted in, and this is where we find ourselves today.

I agree with your post regarding PWM having meaningful sway on MHT's downfall. As above, it was a perfect storm of bad tidings. All glory is fleeting.


Great points but the one place where Massport had to invest heavily was international infrastructure after the sudden entry of several big ticket names. Maybe even Massport never envisioned that all these airlines are going to come flocking; the number of retrenchments from BOS has been very less in comparison to the adds. Outside of DL, the other two haven't added anything meaningful - I would say they retrenched most of their non-hub routes as they felt it was too much for them to deal with B6. In-fact, Terminal B is dead as early as 8:00 pm unless there are multiple delays. C and A are always humming. A wasn't as much at-least 2 years back but now it is busy even at 10:00 pm.

One other point maybe I can think off, is it's very common for NH folks living in Nashua, Salem etc. to travel to Boston for work vs. Maine? Maine is also an attractive retirement destination and maybe explains why PWM has soared compared to MHT. Add in the factor of Big Dig and several private carriers offering attractive options to travel to BOS made it even more simpler and ditch MHT. I do not think NH as a state is very attractive for retirements - sorry if I am off but I know of several folks who have a retirement home in Maine vs. few who retire in NH and they have been living there for a longtime.
 
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Revelation
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:58 pm

iyerhari wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I'll point out that the main reason WN and B6 could expand at BOS was because the legacies went bankrupt and consolidated. Before that happened there was no feasible way for an LCC to get into BOS. Back when the Big 3 were the Big 6 they competed heavily, all gates were taken, and there's no free space at BOS to build more. After the BKs Massport had to deal with the transition from a very full airport to a pretty empty airport. The Big 6 became the Big 3 so a lot of routes that used to be in place just for competitive purposes were eliminated, and the survivors operated a much leaner schedule than pre-BK. Massport had a whole lot of inventory (gates) dumped on them in a short period of time. B6 was the initial benefactor, and was able to grow in a very unusual way: whenever they needed a gate for growth, one was available! That is an incredibly rare thing, and probably won't ever happen again unless there's yet another major economic spin/stall event that drives it. B6 was able to grow organically and robustly, and WN noticed what was going on and wanted in, and this is where we find ourselves today.

I agree with your post regarding PWM having meaningful sway on MHT's downfall. As above, it was a perfect storm of bad tidings. All glory is fleeting.


Great points but the one place where Massport had to invest heavily was international infrastructure after the sudden entry of several big ticket names. Maybe even Massport never envisioned that all these airlines are going to come flocking; the number of retrenchments from BOS has been very less in comparison to the adds. Outside of DL, the other two haven't added anything meaningful - I would say they retrenched most of their non-hub routes as they felt it was too much for them to deal with B6. In-fact, Terminal B is dead as early as 8:00 pm unless there are multiple delays. C and A are always humming. A wasn't as much at-least 2 years back but now it is busy even at 10:00 pm.

One other point maybe I can think off, is it's very common for NH folks living in Nashua, Salem etc. to travel to Boston for work vs. Maine? Maine is also an attractive retirement destination and maybe explains why PWM has soared compared to MHT. Add in the factor of Big Dig and several private carriers offering attractive options to travel to BOS made it even more simpler and ditch MHT. I do not think NH as a state is very attractive for retirements - sorry if I am off but I know of several folks who have a retirement home in Maine vs. few who retire in NH and they have been living there for a longtime.

Good points.

Add me to the list of people planning to leave NH when I retire.

I don't think it's about what is wrong with NH (except the winter weather) but more about no compelling reason to stay.

What makes it good for one's career years makes it (IMHO) pretty boring for one's post-career years.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
cloudboy
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:01 pm

Another thing to look at, though, is that most of the population in relationship to Manchester is south and east. There is not much north and west of the city. Those areas have other alternatives. For Portland there is a little more around it, and it is farther to an alternative airport.

I think if the economy and population were to pick up in Northern NH you might see more interest in MAN.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
iyerhari
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:58 pm

I think the biggest challenge for places like Nashua, Salem etc. are the closeness to MA. Nashua, Salem, Manchester etc. are close to Chelmsford, Billerica, Acton, Westford, Andover etc. where there are a large number of hi-tech companies. NetScout, Motorola, Philips, Red Hat, Pfizer, Mercury Systems, Raytheon, PAREXEL, Schneider Electric etc. These are large companies with large employable base. There are many folks working in these places who travel from NH - some moved out because of MA home prices. It is almost impossible for NH to replicate the large hi-tech, some pharma base that MA has. Note that the companies I mentioned are not even in Boston - these are the burbs! I have rarely come across people traveling from Maine - that is just my experience.
 
airbazar
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:21 pm

iyerhari wrote:
I think the biggest challenge for places like Nashua, Salem etc. are the closeness to MA. Nashua, Salem, Manchester etc. are close to Chelmsford, Billerica, Acton, Westford, Andover etc. where there are a large number of hi-tech companies. NetScout, Motorola, Philips, Red Hat, Pfizer, Mercury Systems, Raytheon, PAREXEL, Schneider Electric etc. These are large companies with large employable base. There are many folks working in these places who travel from NH - some moved out because of MA home prices. It is almost impossible for NH to replicate the large hi-tech, some pharma base that MA has. Note that the companies I mentioned are not even in Boston - these are the burbs! I have rarely come across people traveling from Maine - that is just my experience.

I know a couple of people who live in ME and commute to MA but the main reason not a lot of people do it because as you pointed out, there aren't a lot of high end jobs along the I-95 corridor.
As far a NH, myself and half of my team must be the exception. Most of us live in Mass but our office is in NH LOL
The mass exodus of MA residents to NH ended about a decade ago when NH was the fastest growing state in the Northeast fueled by cheap property. Southern NH is no longer a cheap place to live. In fact I am starting to see a reverse movement taking place as millennials search for a lifestyle that doesn't really exist in NH. Telecommuting is also impacting where people live. When I go into the office on some days I look down the aisle and there's no one there. My main reason for living in MA is being closer to Boston and having a reverse commute nearly free of heavy traffic.
 
tomaheath
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:43 pm

Manchester’s April numbers are out. Finally some positive numbers.
https://www.flymanchester.com/wp-conten ... l-2018.pdf
 
paysonmt77
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:00 pm

I just pulled a quick United schedule to ORD and very shocked on the lift from various airports. July 14th to July 21st sat to sat flights.
MHT just 2 flights on CRJ 200- 100 seats available for purchase. No AA to ORD, SWA to MDW
BTV 5 flights A320, CRJ200(3), 737-700, 426 seats available for purchase. AA to ORD
BGR 3 flights CRJ 700, A319, E175, 264 seats available for purchase. AA to ORD
PWM 4 flights A320, E175, A319, E145 398 seats available for purchase. AA to ORD, SWA to MDW
 
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:05 pm

airbazar wrote:
The mass exodus of MA residents to NH ended about a decade ago when NH was the fastest growing state in the Northeast fueled by cheap property. Southern NH is no longer a cheap place to live. In fact I am starting to see a reverse movement taking place as millennials search for a lifestyle that doesn't really exist in NH. Telecommuting is also impacting where people live. When I go into the office on some days I look down the aisle and there's no one there. My main reason for living in MA is being closer to Boston and having a reverse commute nearly free of heavy traffic.

Tis true.

The place I worked at two years ago was on the 495 belt and was trying to hire millennials and they wanted no part of it, they all wanted to be in Cambridge. They were willing to plunk down big bux to share a tiny apartment with no parking and needed a roommate so they could afford it. They were so in debt from college they couldn't afford anything other than renting anyhow.

My current place of employ is mostly geezers like me, so no issue w/ the preferences of millennials.

While SoNH no longer has cheap housing, everything closer to Boston also has risen in proportion. I bought my house 8 yrs ago in SoNH and similar things along the 495 belt were 25-30% higher. My house valuation has increased since then, but so has everything else, in similar proportion. Stuff within easy commute to Boston is very expensive.

You won't usually find cheap housing anywhere you can make a good living. The monied people will bid things up to the point the less monied can't match. The only real "cheap" places you find are where it's hard to make a good living, and in lots of cases, those aren't very desirable places. However with enough effort one can find some pretty good bang/buck settings. They just aren't that common in the greater Southern New England region any more. Then, add taxes, and it's a mess.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:44 pm

Burlington and Plattsburgh both seem to be doing well.

Plattsburgh has all the ULCC flights to Florida/leisure traffic mostly and BTV has the legacies and busienss traffic/cities. Travel thru either parking lots of NY/VT plates in both. The first overlap will be when united starts plattsburgh-IAD but I think they can co exist as the premium traffic will still want AA to DCA and United is mostly after connections.
 
Fex180
Posts: 69
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Re: The Rest of New England (BDL/PVD/MHT/PWM/ORH/BTV/HVN) - 2018

Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:38 pm

paysonmt77 wrote:
I just pulled a quick United schedule to ORD and very shocked on the lift from various airports. July 14th to July 21st sat to sat flights.
MHT just 2 flights on CRJ 200- 100 seats available for purchase. No AA to ORD, SWA to MDW
BTV 5 flights A320, CRJ200(3), 737-700, 426 seats available for purchase. AA to ORD
BGR 3 flights CRJ 700, A319, E175, 264 seats available for purchase. AA to ORD
PWM 4 flights A320, E175, A319, E145 398 seats available for purchase. AA to ORD, SWA to MDW


Funny that there are more seats between ORD and BTV than MHT or PWM. Is there some kind of business connection between Burlington and Chicago that bumps demand for seats?
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