Portlander wrote:

MHT is only one new carrier away from reversing the negative trend that started over a decade ago and I sincerely wish the airport the very best in turning things around.

That may be true but sadly I think MHT is a lot more likely to lose an airline than it is to gain one. DL is down to only two southbound departures at ~6am and East Coast travel is the biggest market from MHT. That tells me that they've pretty much given up on MHT. They'll probably drop MHT as soon as they get the additional gates at BOS.

B752OS wrote:

Boston MSA includes Rockingham and Strafford counties in NH.

Which is crazy when you think about it.
However Nashua is part of the greater "Boston" CSA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hamps ... ical_areas

^ That would be disappointing especially considering all the infrastructure improvements (parking, runway, highway access) and the name change which I thought would help as a marketing tool. I still think Spirit or a similar type airline will find a home at MHT in the future.

Shifting gears for a minute, because honestly there's only so much MHT vs PWM vs BOS vs PVD fun we can have in a week (kidding guys)
The other thread about ORH and possibly DL showing up did get me thinking about 2 things.

1. It answers the question raised in my head when i saw "New Airline at Worcester" in the board meeting agenda for August
http://www.massport.com/media/2923/agenda_8-15-18.pdf, sadly they have not released the info yet about it, probably because of the announcement next week.

2. Now that the T-100's have ticked over to May for domestic service, here was my chance to see how ORH-JFK did out of the gate. (pardon the pun)
Well outside of the OTP issues and cancellations, apparently nobody in the Tower past 1am either!
The answer.... not that good... average of 43.1% loads, 49% outbound and 37% inbound... I dearly hope June is better and we see progress on that front otherwise those incentives are going to get used up super fast.

The big question is flight to DTW or ATL on DL is next? Smart money appears to be on DTW, but it remains to be seen.

Not to be overly pessimistic about MHT, but what are the odds of UA pulling out entirely?

In 2 weeks UA's presence at Manchester will be just 2-3x daily to EWR with ERJ-145s. That's a "token" presence if I've ever seen one.

Fex180 wrote:

Not to be overly pessimistic about MHT, but what are the odds of UA pulling out entirely?

In 2 weeks UA's presence at Manchester will be just 2-3x daily to EWR with ERJ-145s. That's a "token" presence if I've ever seen one.

I think the chances are good. I’d never go through EWR to get anywhere. And these days, there are so many other better airports to connect at. One of the requirements of taking federal funding at an airport is that you have to divulge your numbers. That’s gotta be a sick day each month when the suits have to do that.

chrisnh wrote:

Fex180 wrote:

Not to be overly pessimistic about MHT, but what are the odds of UA pulling out entirely?

In 2 weeks UA's presence at Manchester will be just 2-3x daily to EWR with ERJ-145s. That's a "token" presence if I've ever seen one.

I think the chances are good. I’d never go through EWR to get anywhere. And these days, there are so many other better airports to connect at. One of the requirements of taking federal funding at an airport is that you have to divulge your numbers. That’s gotta be a sick day each month when the suits have to do that.

I’m no expert but I wouldn’t think that ORD flight will be gone for that long.

New to this discussion and I have not read all the posts. PWM was the third largest airport in terms of passengers in New England as a result of People Express entering their market with $9 fares to EWR and 6-8 flights a day. At the same time Burlington was 4th, again because of PE. PE's entrance to PVD came nearly a year after they had started the other New England service that also included BOS and BDL. PE gave PVD n/s to EWR and HYA. All HYA flights came through PVD on prop service. MHT was not even on the map until UA decided to promote that they served every state. MHT's first flights were piggy backed with PVD to ORD. Mid 80's? I think that was the time. Before that MHT had only prop service with nearly 40 daily flights to BOS on different airlines They had flights to other New England cities also and only a few to the NYC area. Back to PWM as they had multiple DL 757's flights that were piggy backed through BOS going to ATL, MCO and MIA. Every night PWM had 3 overnight 757's on the ground. Very pretty sight.

VS4ever wrote:

Shifting gears for a minute, because honestly there's only so much MHT vs PWM vs BOS vs PVD fun we can have in a week (kidding guys)
The other thread about ORH and possibly DL showing up did get me thinking about 2 things.

1. It answers the question raised in my head when i saw "New Airline at Worcester" in the board meeting agenda for August
http://www.massport.com/media/2923/agenda_8-15-18.pdf, sadly they have not released the info yet about it, probably because of the announcement next week.

2. Now that the T-100's have ticked over to May for domestic service, here was my chance to see how ORH-JFK did out of the gate. (pardon the pun)
Well outside of the OTP issues and cancellations, apparently nobody in the Tower past 1am either!
The answer.... not that good... average of 43.1% loads, 49% outbound and 37% inbound... I dearly hope June is better and we see progress on that front otherwise those incentives are going to get used up super fast.

The big question is flight to DTW or ATL on DL is next? Smart money appears to be on DTW, but it remains to be seen.

JFK loads are terrible, don't see the flight staying on. I feel it will be DL to DTW first, then ATL down the road. Has the reaching the airport by car gotten any better? For years ORH was criticized for poor road access.

chrisnh wrote:

Back in the 1980s and 1990s I flew MHT-ORD a number of times in both directions via BTV on 727s and 737-300s.

I remember that routing. For the time in the 80s-90s that I was paying attention, the ORD-BTV flight was always part of a longer route, with the a/c overnighting somewhere other than BTV. Earlier it was ORD-BTV-BGR, then later it was ORD-BTV-MHT. I always liked the BGR-BTV routing because when the winds at BTV favored landing on runway 15 the a/c would go right over my house, low enough to see all the details. Another poster mentioned that there was an ORD-BTV-PWM at some point, too.

chrisnh wrote:

Fex180 wrote:

Not to be overly pessimistic about MHT, but what are the odds of UA pulling out entirely?

In 2 weeks UA's presence at Manchester will be just 2-3x daily to EWR with ERJ-145s. That's a "token" presence if I've ever seen one.

I think the chances are good. I’d never go through EWR to get anywhere. And these days, there are so many other better airports to connect at. One of the requirements of taking federal funding at an airport is that you have to divulge your numbers. That’s gotta be a sick day each month when the suits have to do that.

I'm also struck by how few options MHT has to the New York area.

DL 1x daily (early morning) to LGA
UA 2-3x daily UA to EWR

Compare that to PWM, which has :

DL 4x daily to LGA
DL 3x daily to JFK
B6 3-4x daily to JFK
AA 2x daily to LGA
UA 4-5x daily to EWR

PVD48 wrote:

New to this discussion and I have not read all the posts. PWM was the third largest airport in terms of passengers in New England as a result of People Express entering their market with $9 fares to EWR and 6-8 flights a day. At the same time Burlington was 4th, again because of PE. PE's entrance to PVD came nearly a year after they had started the other New England service that also included BOS and BDL. PE gave PVD n/s to EWR and HYA. All HYA flights came through PVD on prop service. MHT was not even on the map until UA decided to promote that they served every state. MHT's first flights were piggy backed with PVD to ORD. Mid 80's? I think that was the time. Before that MHT had only prop service with nearly 40 daily flights to BOS on different airlines They had flights to other New England cities also and only a few to the NYC area. Back to PWM as they had multiple DL 757's flights that were piggy backed through BOS going to ATL, MCO and MIA. Every night PWM had 3 overnight 757's on the ground. Very pretty sight.

As somewhat of PWM historian, I dont ever remember 3 DL 757s RONing at PWM. More likely is 2-3 727s and a single 757 for morning flights to BOS, CVG, and LGA.

MHT definitely had jet service with DL in the late 1970s and early 80s. Usually DC-9 -30 to BOS. It was a carryover from the Northeast/Delta merger.

B595 wrote:

chrisnh wrote:

Back in the 1980s and 1990s I flew MHT-ORD a number of times in both directions via BTV on 727s and 737

In 1988, the flight changed to ORD-BGR-PWM on 737-300. Ten years later, there was a PWM-MHT-ORD with 727. I flew on both.

DL also has a similar flight in 1995. CVG-PWM-BGR-PWM-CVG on MD-88.

Hopper, I think I remember Delta having a 727 PWM-ALB-CVG route during the 1997-98 time frame also. You are correct, there was normally only one 757 RON with and occasional second if there was maintenance issue with the 727's.

For JetBlue the JFK flight is an easy add on. Easy to tag on at the end of the day, the jet sits overnight in ORH, the crew goes back and forth to Boston. The plane is then down for JFK early enough in the morning, it really is adding a few more customers to a plane that would otherwise be sitting there.

I suspect DL will do the same with DTW. Early morning out, late evening back. Although I suspect the will throw a CRJ700 on the route. They will try to make it attractive to the central 495 corridor execs who live in the Worcester area who don't want to make the trek into Boston.

Speaking of the old days, we had an interesting visitor in BTV today - DC-9 N784TW: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AJI ... /KRWI/KBTV

This must be one of the older large commercial jets still earning a living in the US.

pwm2txlhopper wrote:

PVD48 wrote:

New to this discussion and I have not read all the posts. PWM was the third largest airport in terms of passengers in New England as a result of People Express entering their market with $9 fares to EWR and 6-8 flights a day. At the same time Burlington was 4th, again because of PE. PE's entrance to PVD came nearly a year after they had started the other New England service that also included BOS and BDL. PE gave PVD n/s to EWR and HYA. All HYA flights came through PVD on prop service. MHT was not even on the map until UA decided to promote that they served every state. MHT's first flights were piggy backed with PVD to ORD. Mid 80's? I think that was the time. Before that MHT had only prop service with nearly 40 daily flights to BOS on different airlines They had flights to other New England cities also and only a few to the NYC area. Back to PWM as they had multiple DL 757's flights that were piggy backed through BOS going to ATL, MCO and MIA. Every night PWM had 3 overnight 757's on the ground. Very pretty sight.

As somewhat of PWM historian, I dont ever remember 3 DL 757s RONing at PWM. More likely is 2-3 727s and a single 757 for morning flights to BOS, CVG, and LGA.

MHT definitely had jet service with DL in the late 1970s and early 80s. Usually DC-9 -30 to BOS. It was a carryover from the Northeast/Delta merger.

B595 wrote:

chrisnh wrote:

Back in the 1980s and 1990s I flew MHT-ORD a number of times in both directions via BTV on 727s and 737

In 1988, the flight changed to ORD-BGR-PWM on 737-300. Ten years later, there was a PWM-MHT-ORD with 727. I flew on both.

DL also has a similar flight in 1995. CVG-PWM-BGR-PWM-CVG on MD-88.

TWA also flew STL-BDL-PWM-BDL-STL in the 90's and I believe up until 9/11. Not sure when that routing started.

[twoid][/twoid]

Portlander wrote:

Hopper, I think I remember Delta having a 727 PWM-ALB-CVG route during the 1997-98 time frame also. You are correct, there was normally only one 757 RON with and occasional second if there was maintenance issue with the 727's.

You're thinking of the 7am morning departure PWM-ALB-ATL, and late night ATL-ALB-PWM. . It was operated for a good 10-15 years before PWM got non-stop to ATL in 1998 or 1999. It was operated by a 727 and the flight ceased in the fall of 1999, in favor of 3 daily non-stops to ATL, and two to CVG. (Plus hourly BEX flights to BOS, and bi-hourly to LGA from 7am-8pm) That was the last time DL flew a scheduled 727 to PWM. DL went all MD-88 at PWM for years after that flight ended, and remained almost exclusively MD-88 for most of the next decade with the exception of the 737-200 briefly to CVG around 2002-2003

TWA also flew STL-BDL-PWM-BDL-STL in the 90's and I believe up until 9/11. Not sure when that routing started.

TWA commenced service to PWM the second time at the end 1998 or very early 1999. Early morning PWM-BDL-STL, and late night ELP-STL-BDL-PWM with the MD-80. Flight only lasted about a year and half and was ended when TWA was absorbed by AA.

First time TWA flew to PWM was 1989-1990ish . It was a regional partner offering flights PWM-JFK on the Jetstream 31. Didn't last too long.

pwm2txlhopper wrote:

In 1988, the flight changed to ORD-BGR-PWM on 737-300. Ten years later, there was a PWM-MHT-ORD with 727. I flew on both.

So there indeed was an ORD-BTV-PWM flight? I'm not disputing it, I just don't remember it personally.

mjgbtv wrote:

Speaking of the old days, we had an interesting visitor in BTV today - DC-9 N784TW. This must be one of the older large commercial jets still earning a living in the US.

And a DC-9-10 no less. The -10s were rare to see 20 years ago, never mind in this day and age.

B595 wrote:

pwm2txlhopper wrote:

In 1988, the flight changed to ORD-BGR-PWM on 737-300. Ten years later, there was a PWM-MHT-ORD with 727. I flew on both.

So there indeed was an ORD-BTV-PWM flight? I'm not disputing it, I just don't remember it personally.

Yes. In 1984, when United started promoting service to all fifty states, one of the daily ORD flights went by way of BTV.

Here it is at PWM in spring 1987. I took this photo myself when was only 8 years old. Flying to MEM via ORD.

DL also had some BTV-PWM milk run flights way back prior to this. You can see some of the old timetables for DL and UA on departflights.com

Here's a list of airlines, equipment, and destinations served out of BTV for February 1985.

http://www.departedflights.com/BTV85intro.html

And 1979

http://www.departedflights.com/BTV79intro.html

Thanks Hopper, thumbs up on the vintage photo from your youth. Forgot it was PWM-ALB-ATL instead of CVG, you are the PWM historian!

pwm2txlhopper wrote:

Yes. In 1984, when United started promoting service to all fifty states, one of the daily ORD flights went by way of BTV.

Here it is at PWM in spring 1987. I took this photo myself when was only 8 years old. Flying to MEM via ORD.

DL also had some BTV-PWM milk run flights way back prior to this. You can see some of the old timetables for DL and UA on departflights.com

Got it. I should've thought to look at departedflights, great site.

About the new UA 737-900 EWR-BTV flights, I've seen other UA 739 flights into BTV in recent years, but I don't recall them being regularly scheduled. They seemed to be ad-hoc substitutions for 738s/A320s. So these new EWR 739 flights could be a milestone of sorts for BTV. The 739 is generally considered the modern-day replacement for the 757, at least for domestic flights (along with the A321). That means, in essence, that BTV has its first regularly scheduled flight in the 757-league.

B595 wrote:

About the new UA 737-900 EWR-BTV flights, I've seen other UA 739 flights into BTV in recent years, but I don't recall them being regularly scheduled. They seemed to be ad-hoc substitutions for 738s/A320s. So these new EWR 739 flights could be a milestone of sorts for BTV. The 739 is generally considered the modern-day replacement for the 757, at least for domestic flights (along with the A321). That means, in essence, that BTV has its first regularly scheduled flight in the 757-league.

UA switches equipment so often that it's hard to call anything 'regular', but I agree that 739's are showing up at BTV in unprecedented numbers. Same with the E190s for AA... Now if only AA would sub in something larger that might truly be a first. Can anyone confirm if AA ever served BTV prior to the US merger? I didn't see them on any departedflights schedules going back to the 70's.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipNz9nrCOol8sTLTQx4tuTnJW_XsG8lvS8BvFrR-

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMoqZLtYDzbrJex6GRF2wUy7iOsPGm3Gx7rGScD

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMKpHwa3i4xc5a6HSnfbDvKVzGF_kSy5-isKltV

These are 25 mile radius’s for each city. The last one is a 25 mile radius for Londonderry because the airport is actually located there. Pretty dramatic increase and proves my point. I never said manchester was better than Portland. I was strictly speaking in numbers of potential passengers in vicinity to each airport. MHT is much larger in this respect. MHTs prior management can take a large portion of the blame, and yes, its vicinity to BOS hurts its performance. It still should be doing better than it is even with these things factored in.

Portlander wrote:

^ That would be disappointing especially considering all the infrastructure improvements (parking, runway, highway access) and the name change which I thought would help as a marketing tool. I still think Spirit or a similar type airline will find a home at MHT in the future.

I seriously hope the new management drops the Boston moniker from its name. This was a lame and frankly embarrassing decision that did exactly Zero for the airport.

Jay, I never cared for the Boston addition to the name but figured there were marketing experts who knew more than me on airport branding. I at least would have put Manchester ahead of Boston for civic pride sakes!

jay767 wrote:

Portlander wrote:

^ That would be disappointing especially considering all the infrastructure improvements (parking, runway, highway access) and the name change which I thought would help as a marketing tool. I still think Spirit or a similar type airline will find a home at MHT in the future.

I seriously hope the new management drops the Boston moniker from its name. This was a lame and frankly embarrassing decision that did exactly Zero for the airport.

I’d drop ‘Boston’ from the name, too. It signals a visible change from the new regime. Indeed, the name did them no favors and ditching it is a no-loss proposition.

jay767 wrote:

I seriously hope the new management drops the Boston moniker from its name. This was a lame and frankly embarrassing decision that did exactly Zero for the airport.

I don’t know if I would exactly say that it did zero. Adding Boston to the name reminded me just how close Boston Logan is. They may have helped foster the exodus.

yeah, the trick of adding the Boston name to MHT would only work if it was crazily far from BOS, because then the reverse applies and people think it is closer. (Ryanair anyone?) but for MHT just a little too close. PVD avoided that trapdoor and seem to have done pretty well out of it, so I would say stop trying to be something you are not right now (BOS reliever) and trade on your own locale. You have to give people reasons not to go to BOS and I think the general consensus is right now, there aren't many if any reasons to do so.

I’d like to see “Boston” go as well from the name. Just try and do it in a way to not spends all kinds of money changing signage wall coverings etc. keep the same logo and everything just as renovations happen just change it to “Manchester airport”.

mjgbtv wrote:

UA switches equipment so often that it's hard to call anything 'regular', but I agree that 739's are showing up at BTV in unprecedented numbers. Same with the E190s for AA... Now if only AA would sub in something larger that might truly be a first. Can anyone confirm if AA ever served BTV prior to the US merger? I didn't see them on any departedflights schedules going back to the 70's.

American Eagle served ORD-BTV with ERJ 135/145s for a very short period in the 2000s or perhaps late 90s. So, technically, yes, AA did serve BTV prior to the 2015 merger with US Airways. But, if you meant mainline AA, then I'm not certain of the answer, but I think it's no. I have a copy of the illustrated history of BTV that was published a few years ago that might shed some light on your question, but it's packed away somewhere.

VS4ever wrote:

yeah, the trick of adding the Boston name to MHT would only work if it was crazily far from BOS, because then the reverse applies and people think it is closer. (Ryanair anyone?) but for MHT just a little too close. PVD avoided that trapdoor and seem to have done pretty well out of it, so I would say stop trying to be something you are not right now (BOS reliever) and trade on your own locale. You have to give people reasons not to go to BOS and I think the general consensus is right now, there aren't many if any reasons to do so.

It works if there is somewhat convenient public transportation to get to said city, which MHT does not have. You arrive at MHT and you are nowhere near Boston and you have no way to get to Boston other than to rent a car which for anyone who's ever visited Boston know that having a car IN Boston is a big no-no. A good example here in the U.S. is Baltimore/Washington International Airport, an airport that is not in Washington but i don't need to rent a car to get to Washington.

Greyhound goes from MHT to So station in Boston. $17 one way. 6AM, 4PM and 6PM.

tomaheath wrote:

Greyhound goes from MHT to So station in Boston. $17 one way. 6AM, 4PM and 6PM.

I would not rate that as somewhat convenient or cheap
Somewhat convenient to me means service every 1-2 hours similar to a commuter rail schedule.
By comparison, from BWI the train runs every 20 mins at rush hour and it costs only $7.

airbazar wrote:

tomaheath wrote:

Greyhound goes from MHT to So station in Boston. $17 one way. 6AM, 4PM and 6PM.

I would not rate that as somewhat convenient or cheap
Somewhat convenient to me means service every 1-2 hours similar to a commuter rail schedule.
By comparison, from BWI the train runs every 20 mins at rush hour and it costs only $7.

MHT ain't BWI nor IAD. For MHT, a Greyhound is the only realistic step forward any time soon.

Revelation wrote:

airbazar wrote:

tomaheath wrote:

Greyhound goes from MHT to So station in Boston. $17 one way. 6AM, 4PM and 6PM.

I would not rate that as somewhat convenient or cheap
Somewhat convenient to me means service every 1-2 hours similar to a commuter rail schedule.
By comparison, from BWI the train runs every 20 mins at rush hour and it costs only $7.

MHT ain't BWI nor IAD. For MHT, a Greyhound is the only realistic step forward any time soon.

Buses will be all MHT is ever going to get. The state is dead set against rail service so much so, they voted down a grant for a study to be done. My guess is a study would have proven a need for rail so they refuse to do the study so they don’t have to make more excuses why they don’t want it. They’ve stated publicly that the state wants to invest in buses instead of rail. Progress is a dirty word in New Hampshire.

DL will start service from ORH to DTW in August 2019 operated by SkyWest. Further information on a schedule to follow later on.

http://www.massport.com/massport/media/ ... o-detroit/

tjerome wrote:

DL will start service from ORH to DTW in August 2019 operated by SkyWest. Further information on a schedule to follow later on.

http://www.massport.com/massport/media/ ... o-detroit/

Interesting. The press release refers to the "flight", as in singular. It looks like a minimal investment by DL in a single CRJ to keep the MassPort Gods happy for their planned expansion at Logan.

tjerome wrote:

DL will start service from ORH to DTW in August 2019 operated by SkyWest. Further information on a schedule to follow later on.

http://www.massport.com/massport/media/ ... o-detroit/

Apparently someone wants to ask Massport for a favor

PVD June 2018 PAX and cargo numbers are out:

http://www.pvdairport.com/documents/passenger-numbers/2018/passenger%20stats%20june%202018.pdf

So far, PAX numbers for calendar 2018 year are up 19.18% vs 2017. Interesting stuff!

Revelation wrote:

airbazar wrote:

tomaheath wrote:

Greyhound goes from MHT to So station in Boston. $17 one way. 6AM, 4PM and 6PM.

I would not rate that as somewhat convenient or cheap
Somewhat convenient to me means service every 1-2 hours similar to a commuter rail schedule.
By comparison, from BWI the train runs every 20 mins at rush hour and it costs only $7.

MHT ain't BWI nor IAD. For MHT, a Greyhound is the only realistic step forward any time soon.

Which is fine. Buses can be even better since they'll pick you up right at the terminal. My beef is with the schedule. Don't tell me that a bus at 6am and then again at 4pm is enough to offer passengers a way to get into Boston and to include "Boston" in the airport's name and all of a sudden MHT is an alternative to get to Boston.

pitbosflyer wrote:

Apparently someone wants to ask Massport for a favor

I have a different opinion which I shared in the other thread.
I think DL is basically "fighting" B6 on all fronts in New England. Wherever B6 goes, DL will go.
Notice that contrary to other NE airports, DL is pulling back at MHT (and might even pull out completely). what's different about MHT for DL? B6 is not there so they don't feel the need to strengthen their presence there.

airbazar wrote:

I have a different opinion which I shared in the other thread.
I think DL is basically "fighting" B6 on all fronts in New England. Wherever B6 goes, DL will go.
Notice that contrary to other NE airports, DL is pulling back at MHT (and might even pull out completely). what's different about MHT for DL? B6 is not there so they don't feel the need to strengthen their presence there.

You have mentioned that DL might pull completely out of MHT a couple of times. I don't see them walking away from MHT-DTW service and the morning flight to LGA appears to have good yeilds. Please share your source for the pullout speculation because I don't believe it's being considered. I might believe if you said that UA might, but not DL.

I’m totally puzzled by the Worcester thing today. One regional jet flight that won’t even commence for a YEAR?

chrisnh wrote:

I’m totally puzzled by the Worcester thing today. One regional jet flight that won’t even commence for a YEAR?

AA gave five months notice on the ORH-PHL service with one round trip then shortly made it two daily round trips. Never heard of such a long lead time for a domestic regional flight.

LotsaRunway wrote:

airbazar wrote:

I have a different opinion which I shared in the other thread.
I think DL is basically "fighting" B6 on all fronts in New England. Wherever B6 goes, DL will go.
Notice that contrary to other NE airports, DL is pulling back at MHT (and might even pull out completely). what's different about MHT for DL? B6 is not there so they don't feel the need to strengthen their presence there.

You have mentioned that DL might pull completely out of MHT a couple of times. I don't see them walking away from MHT-DTW service and the morning flight to LGA appears to have good yeilds. Please share your source for the pullout speculation because I don't believe it's being considered. I might believe if you said that UA might, but not DL.

I have no source. It's just my opinion. I'm entitled to have one just like everyone else on this board. I would not be surprised if a year from now we're not reading about DL pulling out of MHT for the Winter of 2020. And by the way, I also believe UA will pull out completely.

chrisnh wrote:

I’m totally puzzled by the Worcester thing today. One regional jet flight that won’t even commence for a YEAR?

Since we're into opinions, the outgoing Massport CEO probably wanted an additional feather on his cap before leaving so he talked DL into announcing early?

airbazar wrote:

I have a different opinion which I shared in the other thread.
I think DL is basically "fighting" B6 on all fronts in New England. Wherever B6 goes, DL will go.
Notice that contrary to other NE airports, DL is pulling back at MHT (and might even pull out completely). what's different about MHT for DL? B6 is not there so they don't feel the need to strengthen their presence there.

I wouldn't call one regional jet a day to detroit....a fight. Also there is no way DL is trying to steal away Florida or NYC B6 traffic by connecting them thru DTW. The types of people flying B6 at ORH are mostly leisure looking for cheap flights. People that will fly DL are business related wanting to get to the west coast or international destinations.

The worrisome thing about ‘one-flight’ stations is lack of elasticity should something go sideways. Case in point, if I had to go to the west coast and Delta was my choice, I would rather use Boston and connect in either DTW or MSP. That way I have lots of options in both directions. But as much as I was/still am a MHT booster, I’m a business traveler first. I need to get to a certain place by a certain time. My MHT options are VERY, very thin. Having slept on a bench at O’Hare twice and a hotel in Des Plaines once, I know that coming from or going to a small outlying station runs its risks should a flight from/to MHT or ORH have problems. That’s why I actually prefer Logan nowadays. But I literally live on the Mass/NH border (I own land right up to the Mass border) so I am just that much closer to Logan than someone else might be. Indeed, it’s not as though EVERYONE has a fetish for Detroit; hardly anyone is actually GOING there. It’s the CONNECTION flexibility that matters, and one-flight stations, as I said above, are worrisome to me.

Perhaps a combination of political angles in the upcoming Gubernatorial race as well as either a few colleges and/or businesses in the 495 area looking to renew flying contracts? I think Worcester has always help some interest to the airlines, they just could never make it work given the infrastructure present. With Massport running the game now maybe they got the infrastructure up to a point where the airlines are willing to give it a try again.

I also wonder if Retrix is playing a role here as well.

pitbosflyer wrote:

airbazar wrote:

I have a different opinion which I shared in the other thread.
I think DL is basically "fighting" B6 on all fronts in New England. Wherever B6 goes, DL will go.
Notice that contrary to other NE airports, DL is pulling back at MHT (and might even pull out completely). what's different about MHT for DL? B6 is not there so they don't feel the need to strengthen their presence there.

I wouldn't call one regional jet a day to detroit....a fight. Also there is no way DL is trying to steal away Florida or NYC B6 traffic by connecting them thru DTW. The types of people flying B6 at ORH are mostly leisure looking for cheap flights. People that will fly DL are business related wanting to get to the west coast or international destinations.

I think you missed my point which was, DL and B6 are fighting for market share in the region. That DL will only have 1 flight to DTW vs. zero on B6 going West, is irrelevant. Any passenger that DL can get out of ORH is 1 less passenger that the other airlines at BOS will have regardless of their final destination.

airbazar wrote:

I think you missed my point which was, DL and B6 are fighting for market share in the region. That DL will only have 1 flight to DTW vs. zero on B6 going West, is irrelevant. Any passenger that DL can get out of ORH is 1 less passenger that the other airlines at BOS will have regardless of their final destination.

I think it is not possible to compare BOS with any airport in the region. The options and connection possibilities simply cannot be matched. At the end it is a favor for DL to check the box to support Massport and allow them to grow at Logan. Maybe we will see some more gate expansion for DL at Logan. Someone mentioned i believe in this or the ORH new flight announcement thread that it is possible the outgoing Massport chief wanted to check the box that he has supported ORH growth. One flight on DL to DTW is not going to move the needle for DL as B6 and DL slug it out at Logan where all the action and business is. But for a person in Woostah there is an option for him/her to take ORH. The challenges are also there when u take MHT or ORH IMO - a single flight has a high possibility to get canceled vs. BOS where you have numerous connect options.

I think a lot of people need to understand New England geography. Unlike most other parts of the country, even though the distance is relatively short, getting to Boston from many other parts of New England is pretty difficult. Even just getting to the highway can take you a half hour or more, and even then you probably need to take at least one if not 2 to get to the pike. And those highways are crowded and run at a snails pace sometimes. Add to that exhorbitant parking rates and crowded security, and Boston becomes a lot less attractive.

Yes, Worcester has some access issues itself. For many, however, they are going to have to navigate those back roads anyway just to get to the highway. And while they work inside 495, many executives live in the outlying towns where they buy their big houses with the acres of land and send their kids to better schools.

Worcester is attractive. But, you also have to manage operations. I flew out Friday night to FLL. The MCO plane was sitting there - technical issue I guess, for a few hours. We ended up having to use the air stairs (I guess gate 1 jetbridge doesn't work?) Boarding is a problem. On time arrivals and departures are a problem. While small, security is rude and super rigid there and over half the people end up getting their bags hand searched. And once you are inside there is only one mom and pop newstand type place that sells a few sodas and beer and a few snacks.

The lack of traffic through ORH is not just catchment area. And I think airlines realize this, but are having a tough time making it work. They know they can't ignore it because once one airline finds the formula they are likely to grow, and no airlines is willing to rick letting another have "ownership" of ORH. But they haven't yet figured out how to make more than a token flight or two work.

Once AA and DL get some experience with ORH under their belt, you ar going to see them adding a few more flights. You are not going to see wide bodies in there, but I expect a few more regionals as traffic builds.

iyerhari wrote:

airbazar wrote:

I think you missed my point which was, DL and B6 are fighting for market share in the region. That DL will only have 1 flight to DTW vs. zero on B6 going West, is irrelevant. Any passenger that DL can get out of ORH is 1 less passenger that the other airlines at BOS will have regardless of their final destination.

I think it is not possible to compare BOS with any airport in the region. The options and connection possibilities simply cannot be matched. At the end it is a favor for DL to check the box to support Massport and allow them to grow at Logan. Maybe we will see some more gate expansion for DL at Logan.

I'm not comparing it with BOS. I'm saying that ORH has the potential to be a complement to BOS. One flight to DTW tomorrow could lead to multiple flights in the future, just like MHT or PWM or PVD. My opinion is that DL and B6 are competing for the same passengers on all fronts in New England and that ORH is one of those fronts. If it comes with favors so be it but I don't think those favors are the main driver here. IMO, the single biggest problem with ORH is road access and i just don't see an inexpensive way to improve that.

cloudboy wrote:

The lack of traffic through ORH is not just catchment area. And I think airlines realize this, but are having a tough time making it work. They know they can't ignore it because once one airline finds the formula they are likely to grow, and no airlines is willing to rick letting another have "ownership" of ORH. But they haven't yet figured out how to make more than a token flight or two work.

Once AA and DL get some experience with ORH under their belt, you ar going to see them adding a few more flights. You are not going to see wide bodies in there, but I expect a few more regionals as traffic builds.

I think this is exactly it. Airlines are trying it out for the potential of what it could be and no one wants to miss out. As you said, the potential is huge because of the wealthy western suburbs.
Those other issues (gates, security, vendors), should get better with more airline service.