calpsafltskeds wrote:

The 764 should cover all but one deep SA route for sure. 764 flies EWR-HNL with a higher wind component than SA. EWR-HNL is 4312NM. The 764 has flown IAH-FRA at 4547NM and currently flies EWR-EZE 4597nm, which is longer than IAH-EZE/SCL.
ORD-EZE is probably out of the 764 range at 4868nm. Any potential future SFO-deep SA service is over 5600NM and out of 764 range. Note: the 78X has a 800+nm longer range than the 764 and could operate all possible SA routes..

UA has announced EWR-Naples IT/Prague CR, IAD-TLV and SFO-AMS that will take a 4 to 6 widebodies to operate.

While the 764 can cover all but one deep SA route it is not the right aircraft for those routes. UA ships a lot of cargo to and from SA and on our EWR-EZE-EWR route we are routinely weight restricted and forced to route cargo through IAH on the 77E. While in the past flown IAH-FRA-IAH with the 764 one of the reasons it was pulled from that route was because we were leaving cargo behind in FRA do to weight restrictions. I think the only reason why UA still utilizes the 764 on EWR-EZE-EWR route is because IAH-EZE-IAH can cover the cargo that is left behind. It is not unusual to to see 40,000-50,000 pounds of cargo plus the bags on EZE-IAH that same cargo that was held off the EWR flight once it clears customs in IAH is then loaded on either the 77E or 763 from IAH to EWR.
The 764 is probably the perfect aircraft for 4500NM+ routes where there is little to no cargo on on routes that are not pushing it the aircraft to its limits. If you need to move 240 passengers at a time from EWR, IAD, or ORD to Europe this is a great aircaft for passengers and cargo. Personally I think as the high J Polaris/Premium Plus 763s start rolling out the 764s for sure will be found on several ORD-Europe routes during the summer (one perhaps two of our ORD-LHR routes(UA958, UA938), AMS and FCO). However on routes like those to and from deep SA or IAH-Germany the right aircraft for those routes is either the 763 or the 77E it all depends on which hub your flying from.

hOMSaR wrote:

calpsafltskeds wrote:

77W:
N2138U not showing PE on 917/6Dec seat map, hopefully aircraft has PE
N2639U sked to enter SFO 59/6Dec, PE??

UA flight status now showing 2139 doing the AKL flight (917).

2138U now shows operating 917 to AKL tonight (07Dec)......with PE!

calpsafltskeds wrote:

It Makes you wonder why UA is keeping N660UA, which needs a total gut job instead of retiring it and keeping N661UA, N662UA or N663UA for Polaris, which are the same age and already have bins, etc. installed. Maybe UA doesn't want to pull any aircraft from service - N660UA could just keep doing ORD-LHR until one of the HA birds can replace it?????

It was a several step process to see where we are today on the 763s.
UA had decided to keep just the 1998-2000 build 763s right after the merger, so those were converted to 2 class.
Later, it was decided to keep the remaining ITPE birds, so some got 2 class and the remainder are getting High J Polaris and PE.
That doesn't include the oldest 2 class 763s will be retied and not get Polaris.

So, all 763 that will remain with UA over the "long Haul" will get either Polaris or High J Polaris except the 7 older 2 class birds, which will be retired.

The spreadsheet shows 3 sets of 763s.
76A, Were ITPE, Polaris, no PE - all 14 complete except N660UA
76C, 2 Class birds, 7 will retire without Polaris, 14 shown in 76L column - will become High J 76L and 3 HA 763s will become High J 76L Total 17 High J Polaris units
76L, High J/PE that are currently stating the mod process for 17 total units, including 3 Ex HA birds

I think I commented earlier in this thread about this. Unless it's based on cycles or corrosion, they probably aren't thinking straight with how they are evaluating the retirements of the 763s. N660UA is a 1993 build, but the ones that already have Polaris are largely N64XXX which were from 1991. Even the older ones that were converted to 2-class were done after the Polaris launch I believe as well (or on the cusp) and are assumed to get dumped. They should pull a DL and use those 7 as domestic birds like they did with their old domestic 763 fleet (which were also much older as well.)

Fleet analysis is not a strong suit for UA. Remember how they converted 3-class 777s with AVOD to Domestic and ripped out the systems in Y? Or how the hodgepodge of 757s in the PS fleet are either the first or last delivered and the rest were sold off or stored? For a while we were told that none of the IPTE 763s were going to be kept around either as well.

N649DL wrote:

calpsafltskeds wrote:

I think I commented earlier in this thread about this. Unless it's based on cycles or corrosion, they probably aren't thinking straight with how they are evaluating the retirements of the 763s. N660UA is a 1993 build, but the ones that already have Polaris are largely N64XXX which were from 1991. Even the older ones that were converted to 2-class were done after the Polaris launch I believe as well (or on the cusp) and are assumed to get dumped. They should pull a DL and use those 7 as domestic birds like they did with their old domestic 763 fleet (which were also much older as well.)

Fleet analysis is not a strong suit for UA. Remember how they converted 3-class 777s with AVOD to Domestic and ripped out the systems in Y? Or how the hodgepodge of 757s in the PS fleet are either the first or last delivered and the rest were sold off or stored? For a while we were told that none of the IPTE 763s were going to be kept around either as well.

I think they do just fine with fleet analysis...there is a reason for everything they have done. UA doesn't just make random decisions, like you seem to be implying, on their fleet.

Of the 21 763s that were pmUAs international fleet the 7 that are being retired are all 92/93 builds. Of the 14 that are being kept (either have or will get Polaris) only 2 of them are 91 built and the other 12 are 92/93 builds. Airlines, UA included, make decisions on when to retire aircraft based where that aircraft is on its overhaul schedule, number of cycles and hours flown. Age is a factor but its not necessarily a deciding one especially when the aircraft involved are all basically the same age.

The 14 763s that UA used as domestic aircraft pre-merger are actually newer. All were delivered between 98 and 01...all 14 will get Polaris.

They removed the AVOD systems from the 13 772As UA converted from international to domestic configuration for one reason...money. They replaced the seats in Y and went from 9 to 10 across so either way the existing AVOD system in Y was DOA. The ROI on installing a new AVOD system on what was now a domestic aircraft simply isn't there and it would have meant installing it in the 6 aircraft that never had AVOD to begin with. Also UA is trying to move to some level of product consistency. International and PS aircraft have AVOD and streaming...domestic aircraft will only have streaming once the DirectTV contract ends.

The 15 high J PS aircraft were converted from domestic to PS as they were the next aircraft up for an overhaul. Would it have been nice to have all 15 be the newest sure but sometimes maintenance schedules don't work out that way. The other 752 were sold off at a pretty decent price.

Yup they originally planned on retiring the 21 IPTE aircraft they changed their mind when they went into growth mode. Remember UA is growing faster than AA or DL is. In order to do that, and be fiscally responsible, they are extending the lives of their existing aircraft in addition to taking delivery of new aircraft.

Airlines do their fleet plans from time to time...UA, AA and DL have all done that many times in the past few years.

I always wanted to ask this, always figured the answer would be “no way”

With all new metal in service, does anyone think UA would start a EWR/GIG nonstop? There are currently none...but there’s probably a reason for that!

United1 wrote:

N649DL wrote:

calpsafltskeds wrote:

I think I commented earlier in this thread about this. Unless it's based on cycles or corrosion, they probably aren't thinking straight with how they are evaluating the retirements of the 763s. N660UA is a 1993 build, but the ones that already have Polaris are largely N64XXX which were from 1991. Even the older ones that were converted to 2-class were done after the Polaris launch I believe as well (or on the cusp) and are assumed to get dumped. They should pull a DL and use those 7 as domestic birds like they did with their old domestic 763 fleet (which were also much older as well.)

Fleet analysis is not a strong suit for UA. Remember how they converted 3-class 777s with AVOD to Domestic and ripped out the systems in Y? Or how the hodgepodge of 757s in the PS fleet are either the first or last delivered and the rest were sold off or stored? For a while we were told that none of the IPTE 763s were going to be kept around either as well.

I think they do just fine with fleet analysis...there is a reason for everything they have done. UA doesn't just make random decisions, like you seem to be implying, on their fleet.

Of the 21 763s that were pmUAs international fleet the 7 that are being retired are all 92/93 builds. Of the 14 that are being kept (either have or will get Polaris) only 2 of them are 91 built and the other 12 are 92/93 builds. Airlines, UA included, make decisions on when to retire aircraft based where that aircraft is on its overhaul schedule, number of cycles and hours flown. Age is a factor but its not necessarily a deciding one especially when the aircraft involved are all basically the same age.

The 14 763s that UA used as domestic aircraft pre-merger are actually newer. All were delivered between 98 and 01...all 14 will get Polaris.

They removed the AVOD systems from the 13 772As UA converted from international to domestic configuration for one reason...money. They replaced the seats in Y and went from 9 to 10 across so either way the existing AVOD system in Y was DOA. The ROI on installing a new AVOD system on what was now a domestic aircraft simply isn't there and it would have meant installing it in the 6 aircraft that never had AVOD to begin with. Also UA is trying to move to some level of product consistency. International and PS aircraft have AVOD and streaming...domestic aircraft will only have streaming once the DirectTV contract ends.

The 15 hihttps://www.airliners.net/forum/index.phpgh J PS aircraft were converted from domestic to PS as they were the next aircraft up for an overhaul. Would it have been nice to have all 15 be the newest sure but sometimes maintenance schedules don't work out that way. The other 752 were sold off at a pretty decent price.

Yup they originally planned on retiring the 21 IPTE aircraft they changed their mind when they went into growth mode. Remember UA is growing faster than AA or DL is. In order to do that, and be fiscally responsible, they are extending the lives of their existing aircraft in addition to taking delivery of new aircraft.

Airlines do their fleet plans from time to time...UA, AA and DL have all done that many times in the past few years.

"I think they do just fine with fleet analysis...there is a reason for everything they have done. UA doesn't just make random decisions, like you seem to be implying, on their fleet.

Of the 21 763s that were pmUAs international fleet the 7 that are being retired are all 92/93 builds. Of the 14 that are being kept (either have or will get Polaris) only 2 of them are 91 built and the other 12 are 92/93 builds. Airlines, UA included, make decisions on when to retire aircraft based where that aircraft is on its overhaul schedule, number of cycles and hours flown. Age is a factor but its not necessarily a deciding one especially when the aircraft involved are all basically the same age."

Well agree to disagree. The fact that the management has changed their minds several times about the 763s is enough. They can't make up they're minds with it. To me, Kirby and Oscar don't seem like the sharpest tools in the shed when it comes to this stuff.

(imitating Andrew Dice Clay comedian) "OH, we'll keep the 763s, OH but well only a few of them are nice, so we'll retrofit them and then make them Polaris, OH well I guess only some of them are OK aren't they? OH well only some are only nice??"

How much have they backtracked about this fleet on and off from 2014 to now?

They can't make up they're minds about the fleet even though they spent 6-8 weeks to retrofit a 763 from 1991 last year - nevertheless to ever install a Polaris seat onto a 787 at the moment.

what's more shocking to me is United refusal up to now to allocate the 763 Polaris fleet to specific routes. Its literally a coin flip amongst all 763 routes. You would think they would allocate it to specific routes and market the premium product like crazy against competitors. Either put them on all the LHR routes and market to customers that all LHR routes are Polaris. Alternatively, put them in ORD and market ORD as all Polaris. There's 13 of them. Its not 1 or 2 anymore. That amazes me.

DL on the other hand is allocating very publicly and specifically its Delta Suites to routes as soon as frames are delivered or refurbished. Not a complicated thing.

hkcanadaexpat wrote:

what's more shocking to me is United refusal up to now to allocate the 763 Polaris fleet to specific routes. Its literally a coin flip amongst all 763 routes. You would think they would allocate it to specific routes and market the premium product like crazy against competitors. Either put them on all the LHR routes and market to customers that all LHR routes are Polaris. Alternatively, put them in ORD and market ORD as all Polaris. There's 13 of them. Its not 1 or 2 anymore. That amazes me.

DL on the other hand is allocating very publicly and specifically its Delta Suites to routes as soon as frames are delivered or refurbished. Not a complicated thing.

I often think the same thing. But there must be a good reason why they are not yet dedicating them on specific routes, they surely must have discussed it and for whatever reason decided not to. I’ve done 2 trips to Switzerland in the past few months, 4 legs. I looked as much as I could to try and find one Polaris seat map even if I had to connect through any city. But when you do that search on United.com (check every destination from EWR anyway) it would lead one to think that UA had a fleet of 30 764’s!!!

So, I’ve resigned myself to the fact that I’m just going to have to wait a year or two before my trips to Europe are going to be on refitted birds. And my trips to Asia will be through SFO to catch a 77W.
I’ve flown happily enough for many years, MANY flights in the current Diamond seat, and frankly I sleep great in that seat so I decided not to feel let down because of my few refitted 763 rides which spoiled me!

That said, The day I’m really looking forward to is traveling domestically “often” on aircraft that have lie-flat seats in F. On a domestic flight, 9 out of 10 times Im flying for Biz. Almost always I will have worked very late, woken up very early- so if I can grab 3/4 extra hours of sleep before a meeting I will pay my way up if it’s a 752, an HD772, the odd 763 and one day perhaps a 737MAX-10!

I think that is where the next fight will be for attracting premium business fliers “more bed seats domestically than any other airline” (more than just NYC/SFO/LAX)

About a week or two ago, someone mentioned beautiful new interiors and bed seats for the front of the 752’s- any more word on that?

N649DL wrote:

United1 wrote:

N649DL wrote:

I think I commented earlier in this thread about this. Unless it's based on cycles or corrosion, they probably aren't thinking straight with how they are evaluating the retirements of the 763s. N660UA is a 1993 build, but the ones that already have Polaris are largely N64XXX which were from 1991. Even the older ones that were converted to 2-class were done after the Polaris launch I believe as well (or on the cusp) and are assumed to get dumped. They should pull a DL and use those 7 as domestic birds like they did with their old domestic 763 fleet (which were also much older as well.)

Fleet analysis is not a strong suit for UA. Remember how they converted 3-class 777s with AVOD to Domestic and ripped out the systems in Y? Or how the hodgepodge of 757s in the PS fleet are either the first or last delivered and the rest were sold off or stored? For a while we were told that none of the IPTE 763s were going to be kept around either as well.

I think they do just fine with fleet analysis...there is a reason for everything they have done. UA doesn't just make random decisions, like you seem to be implying, on their fleet.

Of the 21 763s that were pmUAs international fleet the 7 that are being retired are all 92/93 builds. Of the 14 that are being kept (either have or will get Polaris) only 2 of them are 91 built and the other 12 are 92/93 builds. Airlines, UA included, make decisions on when to retire aircraft based where that aircraft is on its overhaul schedule, number of cycles and hours flown. Age is a factor but its not necessarily a deciding one especially when the aircraft involved are all basically the same age.

The 14 763s that UA used as domestic aircraft pre-merger are actually newer. All were delivered between 98 and 01...all 14 will get Polaris.

They removed the AVOD systems from the 13 772As UA converted from international to domestic configuration for one reason...money. They replaced the seats in Y and went from 9 to 10 across so either way the existing AVOD system in Y was DOA. The ROI on installing a new AVOD system on what was now a domestic aircraft simply isn't there and it would have meant installing it in the 6 aircraft that never had AVOD to begin with. Also UA is trying to move to some level of product consistency. International and PS aircraft have AVOD and streaming...domestic aircraft will only have streaming once the DirectTV contract ends.

The 15 hihttps://www.airliners.net/forum/index.phpgh J PS aircraft were converted from domestic to PS as they were the next aircraft up for an overhaul. Would it have been nice to have all 15 be the newest sure but sometimes maintenance schedules don't work out that way. The other 752 were sold off at a pretty decent price.

Yup they originally planned on retiring the 21 IPTE aircraft they changed their mind when they went into growth mode. Remember UA is growing faster than AA or DL is. In order to do that, and be fiscally responsible, they are extending the lives of their existing aircraft in addition to taking delivery of new aircraft.

Airlines do their fleet plans from time to time...UA, AA and DL have all done that many times in the past few years.

"I think they do just fine with fleet analysis...there is a reason for everything they have done. UA doesn't just make random decisions, like you seem to be implying, on their fleet.

Of the 21 763s that were pmUAs international fleet the 7 that are being retired are all 92/93 builds. Of the 14 that are being kept (either have or will get Polaris) only 2 of them are 91 built and the other 12 are 92/93 builds. Airlines, UA included, make decisions on when to retire aircraft based where that aircraft is on its overhaul schedule, number of cycles and hours flown. Age is a factor but its not necessarily a deciding one especially when the aircraft involved are all basically the same age."

Well agree to disagree. The fact that the management has changed their minds several times about the 763s is enough. They can't make up they're minds with it. To me, Kirby and Oscar don't seem like the sharpest tools in the shed when it comes to this stuff.

(imitating Andrew Dice Clay comedian) "OH, we'll keep the 763s, OH but well only a few of them are nice, so we'll retrofit them and then make them Polaris, OH well I guess only some of them are OK aren't they? OH well only some are only nice??"

How much have they backtracked about this fleet on and off from 2014 to now?

They can't make up they're minds about the fleet even though they spent 6-8 weeks to retrofit a 763 from 1991 last year - nevertheless to ever install a Polaris seat onto a 787 at the moment.

Nonsense! I have to agree with United1. United (like the other big 3) knows exactly what it is doing. Yes, they have changed their fleet gameplan a bit, but I think that is based on the fact that the new management group realizes to compete, they can't keep shrinking. They need to grow and gain back market share lost during the previous administrations' shrinking plan. To grow, they have to adjust their fleet plans. The lack of an answer on the MOM is, I think, also compounding the problem for UA.

I would say that an airline (or any company) that isn't flexible enough to adjust plans is one that isn't managed well. UA management is demonstrating flexibility and creativity in rebuilding the airline (particularly on the domestic side).

I also have to agree with United1 that you are incorrect on some of your facts and assumptions. United unloaded certain 757s based on what they could get in the market for them at that moment. The 763s they are keeping are mostly (although not entirely) the newer ones. Removing old AVOD systems from the 777As as they were being converted to domestic was the right mode. With regard to the Polaris conversions, what do you expect them to do? They can't pull down half the international fleet at one time, so they are starting with the biggest pain points (the older F and J seats) and working their way (agressively) down toward eventual Polaris upgrade on the 787s, which for now have not all that bad of a lie-flat J seat.


Finally, Oscar and Kirby are exactly what United needs right now and in my opinion are doing all the right things to finally turn United back around. Just a shame it didn't happen sooner!

77W:
N2138U exited SFO 917/7Dec with PE
N2639U entered SFO for PE mod

77E:
N799UA scheduled to exit XMN 10Dec with Polaris and PE cabins
N226UA scheduled to enter XMN 10Dec for Polaris/PE mods

hkcanadaexpat wrote:

what's more shocking to me is United refusal up to now to allocate the 763 Polaris fleet to specific routes. Its literally a coin flip amongst all 763 routes. You would think they would allocate it to specific routes and market the premium product like crazy against competitors. Either put them on all the LHR routes and market to customers that all LHR routes are Polaris. Alternatively, put them in ORD and market ORD as all Polaris. There's 13 of them. Its not 1 or 2 anymore. That amazes me.

DL on the other hand is allocating very publicly and specifically its Delta Suites to routes as soon as frames are delivered or refurbished. Not a complicated thing.

To some extent I agree with you it was a bit of a missed opportunity to showcase the hard product on specific premium routes. It is a little harder than you might think to dedicate a subfleet to specific markets especially when that fleet is stretched as it is due to reconfiguration. UA has learned from that however and they are going to dedicate the aircraft with premium plus seating to certain markets as that rolls out....EWR, SFO and LHR will get the product first. There will probably still be some equipment substitutions so it's not going to be completely guaranteed.

N649DL wrote:

United1 wrote:

N649DL wrote:

I think I commented earlier in this thread about this. Unless it's based on cycles or corrosion, they probably aren't thinking straight with how they are evaluating the retirements of the 763s. N660UA is a 1993 build, but the ones that already have Polaris are largely N64XXX which were from 1991. Even the older ones that were converted to 2-class were done after the Polaris launch I believe as well (or on the cusp) and are assumed to get dumped. They should pull a DL and use those 7 as domestic birds like they did with their old domestic 763 fleet (which were also much older as well.)

Fleet analysis is not a strong suit for UA. Remember how they converted 3-class 777s with AVOD to Domestic and ripped out the systems in Y? Or how the hodgepodge of 757s in the PS fleet are either the first or last delivered and the rest were sold off or stored? For a while we were told that none of the IPTE 763s were going to be kept around either as well.

I think they do just fine with fleet analysis...there is a reason for everything they have done. UA doesn't just make random decisions, like you seem to be implying, on their fleet.

Of the 21 763s that were pmUAs international fleet the 7 that are being retired are all 92/93 builds. Of the 14 that are being kept (either have or will get Polaris) only 2 of them are 91 built and the other 12 are 92/93 builds. Airlines, UA included, make decisions on when to retire aircraft based where that aircraft is on its overhaul schedule, number of cycles and hours flown. Age is a factor but its not necessarily a deciding one especially when the aircraft involved are all basically the same age.

The 14 763s that UA used as domestic aircraft pre-merger are actually newer. All were delivered between 98 and 01...all 14 will get Polaris.

They removed the AVOD systems from the 13 772As UA converted from international to domestic configuration for one reason...money. They replaced the seats in Y and went from 9 to 10 across so either way the existing AVOD system in Y was DOA. The ROI on installing a new AVOD system on what was now a domestic aircraft simply isn't there and it would have meant installing it in the 6 aircraft that never had AVOD to begin with. Also UA is trying to move to some level of product consistency. International and PS aircraft have AVOD and streaming...domestic aircraft will only have streaming once the DirectTV contract ends.

The 15 hihttps://www.airliners.net/forum/index.phpgh J PS aircraft were converted from domestic to PS as they were the next aircraft up for an overhaul. Would it have been nice to have all 15 be the newest sure but sometimes maintenance schedules don't work out that way. The other 752 were sold off at a pretty decent price.

Yup they originally planned on retiring the 21 IPTE aircraft they changed their mind when they went into growth mode. Remember UA is growing faster than AA or DL is. In order to do that, and be fiscally responsible, they are extending the lives of their existing aircraft in addition to taking delivery of new aircraft.

Airlines do their fleet plans from time to time...UA, AA and DL have all done that many times in the past few years.

"I think they do just fine with fleet analysis...there is a reason for everything they have done. UA doesn't just make random decisions, like you seem to be implying, on their fleet.

Of the 21 763s that were pmUAs international fleet the 7 that are being retired are all 92/93 builds. Of the 14 that are being kept (either have or will get Polaris) only 2 of them are 91 built and the other 12 are 92/93 builds. Airlines, UA included, make decisions on when to retire aircraft based where that aircraft is on its overhaul schedule, number of cycles and hours flown. Age is a factor but its not necessarily a deciding one especially when the aircraft involved are all basically the same age."

Well agree to disagree. The fact that the management has changed their minds several times about the 763s is enough. They can't make up they're minds with it. To me, Kirby and Oscar don't seem like the sharpest tools in the shed when it comes to this stuff.

(imitating Andrew Dice Clay comedian) "OH, we'll keep the 763s, OH but well only a few of them are nice, so we'll retrofit them and then make them Polaris, OH well I guess only some of them are OK aren't they? OH well only some are only nice??"

How much have they backtracked about this fleet on and off from 2014 to now?

They can't make up they're minds about the fleet even though they spent 6-8 weeks to retrofit a 763 from 1991 last year - nevertheless to ever install a Polaris seat onto a 787 at the moment.

So you expect every airline, and company in general, to stick with the exact same business plan year after year? Even if opportunities present themselves or markets change....I think that would be incredibly short sighted and really a bad way to run a business. I guess you don't think the CEOs of DL, AA or WN are very sharp either as ALL of them have changed their business and fleet plans multiple times over the last few years.

All of UAs 767s that are staying as well as the 787 and 777ER fleet will get Polaris over the next couple of years. If you want to see what the 787 product will look like hop on a 78J they have Polaris and Premium Plus seating.

N649DL wrote:

Well agree to disagree. The fact that the management has changed their minds several times about the 763s is enough. They can't make up they're minds with it. To me, Kirby and Oscar don't seem like the sharpest tools in the shed when it comes to this stuff.

(imitating Andrew Dice Clay comedian) "OH, we'll keep the 763s, OH but well only a few of them are nice, so we'll retrofit them and then make them Polaris, OH well I guess only some of them are OK aren't they? OH well only some are only nice??"

How much have they backtracked about this fleet on and off from 2014 to now?

They can't make up they're minds about the fleet even though they spent 6-8 weeks to retrofit a 763 from 1991 last year - nevertheless to ever install a Polaris seat onto a 787 at the moment.

I think you are confusing current management with pre-merger management. Pre-merger the plan was to replace the IPTE 763s with 788s, sUA had 25 788s on order delivers were to begin in 2016, and the A359 was supposed to replace the 744s also starting in 2016. That plan in its entirety was thrown way soon after the merger under Smisek's management team. Under Smisek the much younger domestic 763s were converted to international 2 cabin 763s to replace 752s and 762s that were flying EWR-Europe and IAH-South America. However the domestic frames weren't enough so UA converted some of the IPTE 763s to 2 cabin 763s. Smisek's management team also changed pre-merger UA's order for the 25 788 for more 789's and the 25 A359s became 35 A35Js. Later on the A35J order was swapped again for 45 A359's deliveries for now are scheduled to begin in 2022. However post merger the IPTE 763s were placed on what I call the wait and see list, UA no longer had an aircraft to replace them. Although UA is very pleased with their 788s they did announce maybe a two or three years after the merger that after much review they no longer believed the 788 was the right aircraft to replace the 763s on EWR, IAD, and ORD - Europe routes. Thus began the search for the right 763 replacement a search that continues even to this day. The original plan was to base the 788's at SFO, LAX, and IAH, as more 789s arrived and as the UA was growing internationally, to obtain a higher utilization rate UA decided to move the 787 fleet and base from IAH to IAD and fly 788s from IAD to LHR an CDG. At the time UA claimed closing the IAH base and opening the IAD based effectively gave them access to another frame through higher utilization that what we were getting out of IAH. A few years later the 787s returned to IAH and a crew base was opened to support IAH-SYD.
I said all of this to show you its not that UA can't make up their mind about their oldest 763s and by the way the the the 6 or 7, 763s that will be retired are 1992-3 builds. Those frames don't have Polaris, (and don't confuse them with the much younger 1998-2001 builds which are 2 class) they do have the Diamond BE seats which leads me to believe that although UA may not have publicly announced their plans for the entire 763s the fact that they chose these specific birds to convert to Diamond BE about three years ago and not the birds that now have Polaris means someone knew these birds would be retired by the end of this decade. for UA to get the most bang for its buck they installed the Diamond BE seats on these birds knowing full well these birds would never see Polaris. The 763s that have Polaris are not being retired at least not yet as UA continues its search for a 763 replacement.
As far as the 787 fleet most airlines including DL keep seats on their aircraft anywhere between 6-10 years do to the fact of the shear cost of each individual seat and there is a whole thread on this site devoted to how expensive it is to build and install one business class seat. Again it is the same reason why UA installed the Diamond BE seats on some of the 92, 93 built 763s by the time those aircraft leave the fleet UA would have gotten depending on the date of retirement 6-8 years of use out of those BE seats. The same thing is true of the 788, 789 fleet once those seats are replaced with Polaris UA would have gotten their monies worth out of those seats.

"Those frames don't have Polaris, (and don't confuse them with the much younger 1998-2001 builds which are 2 class) they do have the Diamond BE seats which leads me to believe that although UA may not have publicly announced their plans for the entire 763s the fact that they chose these specific birds to convert to Diamond BE about three years ago and not the birds that now have Polaris means someone knew these birds would be retired by the end of this decade. for UA to get the most bang for its buck they installed the Diamond BE seats on these birds knowing full well these birds would never see Polaris."

Yup...

From what I understand the 763 fleet will end up as follows:

The 14 98-01 builds and the 3 exHA aircraft are getting the High J Polaris configuration and PP seats installed on them. There is one in HKG right now and the conversions will continue this winter.

The 13 currently Polarisized (and 6460 when it is overhauled) will stay in the existing Low J configuration.

The 7 763s that have BE/Diamond seats that are earmarked for retirement will leave the fleet (probably in 19/20.) They will be replaced by the 3 exHA 763s and new build 789s.

I think it also has to be looked at in the context of the economy. In the last several years we have recovered from a recession that hurt premium travel, and then Oil went up to $100/barrel, down to $45, back up to $70-80, and now it's going back down. Also, in that time, Norwegian and Icelandair/Wow have started affecting transatlantic travel. There are a lot of factors that would lead them to change their minds about what to do with older midsized widebodies.

N660UA will be going to HKG in the next few weeks for its Polaris 2 class conversion. The same as the first 763 builds no PP. These aircraft will be the first 763 builds to be retired by 2022.

The reason N588HA (6684) was sent was multiple. One reason was for the same for the old CA A319 birds. The other is the STC factor also. Since it is another type to be retrofitted. This bird will be pulled out of the hanger for N660UA retrofit, once it arrives in HKG.

cosyr wrote:

I think it also has to be looked at in the context of the economy. In the last several years we have recovered from a recession that hurt premium travel, and then Oil went up to $100/barrel, down to $45, back up to $70-80, and now it's going back down. Also, in that time, Norwegian and Icelandair/Wow have started affecting transatlantic travel. There are a lot of factors that would lead them to change their minds about what to do with older midsized widebodies.

I don't think Norwegian and WOW affect it that much.

UA can connect enough pax from areas they can't reach at a premium. Both airlines are also on the cusp of insolvency or money losers.

There hasn't been much vacillation in fleet planning since Kirby arrived. It's been mostly a growth agenda.

N649DL lists the progression of UA's 757/767 fleet planning over the last 5-7 years, and it is certainly true that there has been some changes, but what he does not correlate is the management teams which made those decisions. You have:

- Tilton UAL and the CO merger lead-up
- Smisek UAL in the post-merger era
- Post-Smisek Oscar with Julia Haywood and Andrew Levy
- Oscar with Kirby and Andrew Levy
- Oscar with an established Kirby and the AA refugees like Nocella, Quayle, et al.

It's not surprising that with such management flux, fleet planning priorities change. Now, with the success of Kirby's growth initiative, his strategy is firmly established and I doubt you'll see much change unless we encounter a highly disruptive macroeconomic event. UAL is finally hitting its stride, not a second too soon.

codc10 wrote:

There hasn't been much vacillation in fleet planning since Kirby arrived. It's been mostly a growth agenda.

N649DL lists the progression of UA's 757/767 fleet planning over the last 5-7 years, and it is certainly true that there has been some changes, but what he does not correlate is the management teams which made those decisions. You have:

- Tilton UAL and the CO merger lead-up
- Smisek UAL in the post-merger era
- Post-Smisek Oscar with Julia Haywood and Andrew Levy
- Oscar with Kirby and Andrew Levy
- Oscar with an established Kirby and the AA refugees like Nocella, Quayle, et al.

It's not surprising that with such management flux, fleet planning priorities change. Now, with the success of Kirby's growth initiative, his strategy is firmly established and I doubt you'll see much change unless we encounter a highly disruptive macroeconomic event. UAL is finally hitting its stride, not a second too soon.

Yes, this is spot on. Airlines don't make decisions – the people who run them do. I think the executive changes in the last few years explain the change in fleet and network planning better than anything else.

Don't forget that there were a few other C-level execs who left who aren't even on your list – remember CFO John Rainey? Everything seems to have stabilized at the top now for the most part.

intotheair wrote:

Yes, this is spot on. Airlines don't make decisions – the people who run them do. I think the executive changes in the last few years explain the change in fleet and network planning better than anything else.

Don't forget that there were a few other C-level execs who left who aren't even on your list – remember CFO John Rainey? Everything seems to have stabilized at the top now for the most part.

Right... Rainey was part of the Smisek team which was focused on "capacity discipline" (i.e., capacity cutting), and Rainey remains a persona non grata among frequent flyers for his 'over-entitled' comment, which was blown out of proportion, IMO. Nevertheless, his post-UAL years have demonstrated his talent as an executive, as he's currently CFO of PayPal. Another post-merger CFO, Zane Rowe, went to Apple, then became CFO of VMWare, and turned down an offer for CFO of Uber. It's probably fair to say they weren't the problem...

OTOH, you had managers like Jim Compton, who is an extraordinarily nice person and a good human being, but wasn't well-suited for a top-level role at a major airline. Strategically, post-merger United was so focused on bottom-line numbers they completely lost track of the top (revenue) line.

But that's neither here nor there... point is, strategies change as management changes.

ual777 wrote:

cosyr wrote:

I think it also has to be looked at in the context of the economy. In the last several years we have recovered from a recession that hurt premium travel, and then Oil went up to $100/barrel, down to $45, back up to $70-80, and now it's going back down. Also, in that time, Norwegian and Icelandair/Wow have started affecting transatlantic travel. There are a lot of factors that would lead them to change their minds about what to do with older midsized widebodies.

I don't think Norwegian and WOW affect it that much.

UA can connect enough pax from areas they can't reach at a premium. Both airlines are also on the cusp of insolvency or money losers.

I'm just saying that the landscape continues to evolve. Spirit and Frontier caused the US3 to add basic economy, and Norwegian and others are causing US3 to consider offering basic economy on transatlantic flights. They are also what has driven UA to start KEF and AA to try routes as crazy as DFW to KEF. Nothing happens in a vacuum, and these competitors will always be a factor considered in any growth plans, and therefor fleet plans.

And as Gordon Bethune said, an airline is only as good as its dumbest competitor. Wow and others maybe struggling financially, but everyone gets hurt as the whole market has to match unrealistic prices.

snuggs28 wrote:

N660UA will be going to HKG in the next few weeks for its Polaris 2 class conversion. The same as the first 763 builds no PP. These aircraft will be the first 763 builds to be retired by 2022.

The reason N588HA (6684) was sent was multiple. One reason was for the same for the old CA A319 birds. The other is the STC factor also. Since it is another type to be retrofitted. This bird will be pulled out of the hanger for N660UA retrofit, once it arrives in HKG.

Got an estimate of when 660UA will go?

78J
N17002 UA2752 IADORD 10Dec
N14001 Still at LAX since 30Nov
N12003 Still at PDX paint
N12004 Sould roll out CHS FAL any day now

This is a reminder that users need to respect each other when posting.

✈️ atcsundevil

Re the 763 fleet, I agree with the many who have tracked the changes in strategy - I think this was correct.
However, I believe UA should have routed the 763 Polaris units about the first of July when 11 units were completed. UA should have come up with a routing of 6-8 units to ensure they would be on those flights. My rationale is that when UA has just 2 fleets of 763s with a widely varied configuration, they will have to route them as 2 fleets - so it can be done.
Will UA continue to float the 763 fleet? I hope not.
The bigger question will be how the high J birds are routed when they start slowly coming online.

738:
N73299 exited HOU 2746/9Dec in domestic configuration (ex GUM)

39M:
N27509 exited SEA Induction 2750/8Dec, 1st Revenue flight 794/7Dec

763:
N643UA entered MCO 2740/7Dec, exited 2744/9Dec

788:
N27903 exited HKG 2779/9Dec

789:
N27958 exited AMA paint 2724/8Dec

78X:
N12003 sked to exit IAD Induction 2752/10Dec

calpsafltskeds wrote:

789:
N27958 exited AMA paint 2724/8Dec

I'm curious as to why this aircraft, which was only delivered on 15th Sept. 2015, would be exiting paint? I haven't heard that B787 factory liveries need repainting after only 3 yrs/3 mos since new. Did something happen to the paint on this one to need a repaint already?

kaitakfan wrote:

snuggs28 wrote:

N660UA will be going to HKG in the next few weeks for its Polaris 2 class conversion. The same as the first 763 builds no PP. These aircraft will be the first 763 builds to be retired by 2022.

The reason N588HA (6684) was sent was multiple. One reason was for the same for the old CA A319 birds. The other is the STC factor also. Since it is another type to be retrofitted. This bird will be pulled out of the hanger for N660UA retrofit, once it arrives in HKG.

Got an estimate of when 660UA will go?

Looks like the 13th - 14th. With a stop in HNL.

Why doesn't United keep the "newer" BE-configured 2-cabin 763s and run them on domestic premium transcons? Why retire these birds? The domestic network could put them to great use.

audidudi wrote:

calpsafltskeds wrote:

789:
N27958 exited AMA paint 2724/8Dec

I'm curious as to why this aircraft, which was only delivered on 15th Sept. 2015, would be exiting paint? I haven't heard that B787 factory liveries need repainting after only 3 yrs/3 mos since new. Did something happen to the paint on this one to need a repaint already?

I heard it got a bad paint job from Boeing.

738:
N33294 exited MCO 2755/10Dec in domestic configuration (ex GUM)
This completes 738 GUM to Domestic swap. Note that GUM now shows 5 378 units instead of 6. One would expect N37277 or N73283 would migrae to GUM, but still flying Domestic.

763:
N675UA sked to exit MIA maint. 2754/10Dec

I just noticed that N14001 is scheduled to fly from LAX>PAE tomorrow. Does anyone know why?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N14001

audidudi wrote:

I just noticed that N14001 is scheduled to fly from LAX>PAE tomorrow. Does anyone know why?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N14001

Ferry / Validation flight to PAE for Employee Delivery event / Validation flight on the 12th.

What is the config on the high premium 763s?

[twoid][/twoid]

Nicknuzzii wrote:

What is the config on the high premium 763s?

46J/22W/99Y.

snuggs28 wrote:

audidudi wrote:

I just noticed that N14001 is scheduled to fly from LAX>PAE tomorrow. Does anyone know why?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N14001

Ferry / Validation flight to PAE for Employee Delivery event / Validation flight on the 12th.

If all goes according to plan it looks like the ETOPS flight will take place on the 12th, N14001 is scheduled to fly ORD-FRA on the 12 as well.

On a side note N17002 was flown to ORD on today from IAD. For now the aircraft is scheduled to remain at the widebody maintenance hangar for a few days. If everything goes according to plan December 12th may be the only time over the next few years that two UA 78Js are on the ground at ORD at the same time.

I cannot help but wonder what the topline revenue average would be between a high premium 763, and regular 763 (both in full Polaris) I’m sure UA had the projections.

46J (If average was $3500 a ticket “total guess”, one way) to Europe would roughly be $160,000 should all seats be sold. $320,000 RT.

Add W and E+, E and additional fees, cargo, it seems like that would be a very lucrative RT!

N224UA 772 Polaris from IPTE bird test hop in XMN today should be out soon!

Today's LHR --> LHR flight on N660UA may be the last customer 3-class 763 flight. N660UA was scheduled to start the journey to HKG on Thursday, however those flights appear to have been pushed back. No scheduled passenger service though so the aircraft looks to be staying in Chicago until it goes to HKG.

78J
N14001 UA2764 12Dec Currently proving it can go ORDFRA without stopping. UA2764 FRAEWR 14Dec. UA2739 EWRLAX 14Dec
N17002 UA2740 ORDLAX 13Dec

iahcsr wrote:

78J
N14001 UA2764 12Dec Currently proving it can go ORDFRA without stopping.

Well there were only 4 Polaris and 10 Economy seats occupied according to the Seat Map on UA.com, so that's hardly surprising and it's only an 8 hours flight! A piece of cake for a B78X!

audidudi wrote:

iahcsr wrote:

78J
N14001 UA2764 12Dec Currently proving it can go ORDFRA without stopping.

Well there were only 4 Polaris and 10 Economy seats occupied according to the Seat Map on UA.com, so that's hardly surprising and it's only an 8 hours flight! A piece of cake for a B78X!

Indeed. But it makes the FAA happy to Mark this one off the to do list.

fun2fly wrote:

N224UA 772 Polaris from IPTE bird test hop in XMN today should be out soon!

Flight to HKG cancelled...gremlins again?

78J
N12003 B3 BOE39 PDXCHS 13Dec Back looking all bright and shiny in its new paint. Doesn’t look like a turtle though

GmoneyCO wrote:

Today's LHR --> LHR flight on N660UA may be the last customer 3-class 763 flight. N660UA was scheduled to start the journey to HKG on Thursday, however those flights appear to have been pushed back. No scheduled passenger service though so the aircraft looks to be staying in Chicago until it goes to HKG.

FlightAware has frozen this aircraft in time. Still shows as taxing for takeoff UA931 ORDLHR 11Dec.

iahcsr wrote:

GmoneyCO wrote:

Today's LHR --> LHR flight on N660UA may be the last customer 3-class 763 flight. N660UA was scheduled to start the journey to HKG on Thursday, however those flights appear to have been pushed back. No scheduled passenger service though so the aircraft looks to be staying in Chicago until it goes to HKG.

FlightAware has frozen this aircraft in time. Still shows as taxing for takeoff UA931 ORDLHR 11Dec.

More up-to-date info here on FR24:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n660ua

GmoneyCO wrote:

Today's LHR --> LHR flight on N660UA may be the last customer 3-class 763 flight. N660UA was scheduled to start the journey to HKG on Thursday, however those flights appear to have been pushed back. No scheduled passenger service though so the aircraft looks to be staying in Chicago until it goes to HKG.

If Flightaware is correct, N660UA is like a cat with 9 lives. EWR>LHR today! 4:32AM flight ORD>EWR must have had a plane crap out.

fun2fly wrote:

GmoneyCO wrote:

Today's LHR --> LHR flight on N660UA may be the last customer 3-class 763 flight. N660UA was scheduled to start the journey to HKG on Thursday, however those flights appear to have been pushed back. No scheduled passenger service though so the aircraft looks to be staying in Chicago until it goes to HKG.

If Flightaware is correct, N660UA is like a cat with 9 lives. EWR>LHR today! 4:32AM flight ORD>EWR must have had a plane crap out.

Flightaware is correct N660UA is ferrying to EWR to cover UA934-14/UA883-15. However on tomorrow the aircraft is schedule to fly LHR-EWR it will ferry EWR-HNL, and HNL-HKG. The nine lives of the IPTE configured 6460 should come to an end on DEC 16th at 0845 that is when it is scheduled to land at HKG.

Does anyone know what maintenance is going in on @MCO on the 763s? They all seem to be rotating through there for 24-48 hours at a time. 643/648/649/652 all in the last week.

Not sure, but here's the activity
763:
N643UA entered MCO 2740/7Dec, exited 2744/9Dec
N648UA entered MCO 2745/10Dec, exited 2741/11Dec
N649UA entered MCO 2742/12Dec, exited 2741/14Dec
N652UA entered MCO 2740/14Dec

N660UA sked to enter HKG 2788/16Dec for Polaris, last 3 class unit, finally!

hkcanadaexpat wrote:

what's more shocking to me is United refusal up to now to allocate the 763 Polaris fleet to specific routes. Its literally a coin flip amongst all 763 routes. You would think they would allocate it to specific routes and market the premium product like crazy against competitors. Either put them on all the LHR routes and market to customers that all LHR routes are Polaris. Alternatively, put them in ORD and market ORD as all Polaris. There's 13 of them. Its not 1 or 2 anymore. That amazes me.

DL on the other hand is allocating very publicly and specifically its Delta Suites to routes as soon as frames are delivered or refurbished. Not a complicated thing.

In the 33 Years I was with United, they NEVER allocated certain airplanes to any route. We dedicated a fleet to a route then flew what was available within that fleet. Only the PS airplanes were allocated to a certain route as were the TED 737's. The PS airplanes did fly a few other routes on occasion but only when the needs of the airline prevailed over the desires of routing. Like flying the largest 777's to Hawaii over the Holidays and after the Holidays to clear out any Backlog