Welcome to the 2018 edition of PIT Update Discussion Thread. Please continue to add your comments below

Link to last thread

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Have a great 2018

Since this is a new thread, I'll just carry over the latest information that was shared before the old thread closed:

Runway28L wrote:

UA is going 2x daily PIT-SFO this summer according to the latest OAG.

I can't remember the route ever going more than 1x daily. Definitely a good sign.

I also found the flight times for the 2nd daily through a random search on July 10th:
UA 2229 319 SFO 0900 PIT 1652
UA 2228 319 PIT 1735 SFO 1955

The daylight flight should definitely convince more travelers that dislike the existing red eye to take the nonstop option rather than connecting. I have family that has to travel out west for work several times a year and they have always avoided the red eye and chose to connect during the day since there was no nonstop option available.

Predictions for the year:

1. OneJet adds service to......Rochester and Austin.
2. Delta tries it's hand at PIT-LAX. Also makes a play to push American off the PIT-RDU route.
3. Southwest finally goes outside the box and adds something that's more point to point. Either Newark or Philadelphia.
4. Someone will announce a seasonal AUA flight.

Now, if PIT lands Amazon HQ2, all bets are suddenly off, and PIT is maybe not so overbuilt any more...

GSP psgr wrote:

Predictions for the year:

1. OneJet adds service to......Rochester and Austin.
2. Delta tries it's hand at PIT-LAX. Also makes a play to push American off the PIT-RDU route.
3. Southwest finally goes outside the box and adds something that's more point to point. Either Newark or Philadelphia.
4. Someone will announce a seasonal AUA flight.

When OneJet announced their latest expansion I was hoping RDU was NOT on the table because I think it would be a great route for DL Connection. Just by adding service to the missing hubs and focus cities DL could easily become the clear dominant carrier at PIT that WN has talked about becoming but never followed through. PIT-RDU/CVG/SEA/LAX/SLC and year round CDG could all be viable for DL. But if not then I would expect OneJet to add PIT-RDU at some point.

My other prediction would be both DUB and LON announced in 2018 for service to begin in 2019, SJU to return when ready, and some more G4 and NK growth. Maybe F9 pulling out for the millionth time.

I'll add...
1. Norwegian or Aer Lingus announce plans to enter the Pittsburgh market.
2. WN starts PIT-SAN
3. DL announces RDU and brings back CVG
4. OneJet continues expansion

And my ultimate wild cards
5. Frontier exits MCO (and DEN) prompting JetBlue to start PIT-MCO as well as (hopefully) adding a 2nd daily PIT-FLL.
6. UA brings back PIT-LAX (doubt it'll be AA since they've been cutting back at LAX domestically and DL is tied up with projects at T2 and T3. UA is also rumored to want to re-solidify LAX).

If Pittsburgh does win HQ2, then I believe DL jumps on SEA and UA makes SFO year-round along with WN looking into more new routes.

Runway28L wrote:

Since this is a new thread, I'll just carry over the latest information that was shared before the old thread closed:

Runway28L wrote:

UA is going 2x daily PIT-SFO this summer according to the latest OAG.

I can't remember the route ever going more than 1x daily. Definitely a good sign.

I also found the flight times for the 2nd daily through a random search on July 10th:
UA 2229 319 SFO 0900 PIT 1652
UA 2228 319 PIT 1735 SFO 1955

The daylight flight should definitely convince more travelers that dislike the existing red eye to take the nonstop option rather than connecting. I have family that has to travel out west for work several times a year and they have always avoided the red eye and chose to connect during the day since there was no nonstop option available.

The daylight flight appears to be the regular flight as it's available for sale on June 3 and the redeye flight is being added as of June 7 as the seasonal trip. I don't get why they're using a 319 for the daylight flight and a 737 for the red eye.

Runway28L wrote:

I'll add...
1. Norwegian or Aer Lingus announce plans to enter the Pittsburgh market.
2. WN starts PIT-SAN
3. DL announces RDU and brings back CVG
4. OneJet continues expansion

And my ultimate wild cards
5. Frontier exits MCO (and DEN) prompting JetBlue to start PIT-MCO as well as (hopefully) adding a 2nd daily PIT-FLL.
6. UA brings back PIT-LAX (doubt it'll be AA since they've been cutting back at LAX domestically and DL is tied up with projects at T2 and T3. UA is also rumored to want to re-solidify LAX).

If Pittsburgh does win HQ2, then I believe DL jumps on SEA and UA makes SFO year-round along with WN looking into more new routes.

It'll be interesting to see what Delta does at PIT; I think the last year may have taught them that ATL has gotten to be as big as it can be relative to the rest of their network. DTW and MSP aren't booming markets; SLC is growing, but isn't a huge market to start with, and they have definite facility constraints at LAX and SEA. I lean towards them giving LAX a whirl because they don't fly West of MSP right now, unlike American and United. It would broaden their network reach modestly. I always got the impression that CVG was a victim of the pilot crunch, which may have eased somewhat. There's much talk about them building an RDU scale operation at AUS this year, and I think PIT-AUS would be a bit long and thin at the moment.

Trying to predict what F9 and NK are going to do on a week to week basis is a lot of effort for not significant results.

As for Florida, it'd be nice to see a more stable operator to MCO to compliment WN such as B6. I wouldn't hold my breath on a second FLL frequency, though. More likely would be American finally going mainline on one of their frequencies to Miami.

WN is almost out of hubs they can serve from PIT; I think OAK/SFO is more likely than SAN for them, unless you're talking about a weekly frequency.

To add to the predictions for 2018:
1) WOWair announces daily flights for the peak season
2) As much as everyone wants Norwegian or Aer Lingus to give DUB a go, my bet is WOWair (if there is any truth to them wanting to open a hub somewhere other than KEF)
3) NK will announce at least a few of these BWI, BDL, ORD, OAK, SEA, IAH, MSY, SAN
4) B6 will add MCO (B6 has been looking to add this for years)
5) Copa finally announcing PTY-PIT
6) Maybe WN finally makes the move and adds a few of these PHL, EWR, SAN, MCI, SJC, MKE, AUA (like CUN), (these ones are my wildcard picks) BOS, MEM, SDF, SEA, PDX, AUS, SAT

I think it is fairly given that OneJet will add more destinations so will be interesting to see what they announce.
F9 will more than likely drop PIT from their network since they can't seem to make PIT work.
G4 probably won't have many changes at PIT other than adding SJU back.

Sure, why not...

HQ2 or not, I think 2018 will be the year we finally see some meaningful west coast announcements. I suspect the legacies have been eyeing new west coast service here for a year or two, waiting to see who goes first, and the AS announcement broke the ice. Per above, UA has already announced 2x SFO (albeit still seasonal), and I expect WN will announce OAK this year, possibly as early as the February schedule release, since they've been on an OAK-midwest kick lately. UA (or, less likely, DL or AA) is on notice to bring back LAX, as we currently have no FC seats on that route, and I'm sure AS would be happy to scoop up that business once they have the aircraft available to do it.

On a more personal note, I'm rooting for DL to pick up PIT-RDU, now that Trans States seems to be losing enthusiasm for it. I'm still holding my grudge against USAir and now AA for continuing to trim service here despite their past promises, but you can't beat a non-stop when you're taking the kids to visit family during the holidays...

Those daylight times are great for the second SFO flight. That 5:30pm flight is perfect for getting a full day of work in, then jumping straight to the airport. That'll probably be my new route out there.

I'll respond to a couple of things mentioned above:

NK - Load factors on their existing services are not spectacular. Running in the 70's-80's per Bob Fornaro. I don't expect to see much growth from them until their existing loads improve another 10%. Any new service could well be at the expense of current services.
F9 - Always a wild card. No predictions there.
G4 - Perhaps a little more International. 2018 is going to be a slow growth year for them across the board.Their main focus is getting the MD80 fleet retired ASAP with growth to resume in 2019.
WW - Im still not convinced this airline has a long term future. Im less concerned with their PIT performance (its been ok) than I am their continued existance overall.
B6 - Plenty of rumors flying (return to JFK, additonal FLL, MCO) but I think it's mostly hot air. MCO yields are dreadful. FLL succeeds mainly on connections. An additional FLL might be the only realistic scenario there. They talk a good game but rarely deliver.
WN - More of the same. Lots of talk and some minor additions here and there.
9X - I expect at least three more destinations this year. They are doing much better load wise than I ever anticipated.

SJU - It was on the books to return this year prior to the hurricane. I don't expect this to ever return now. I was shocked that it was even planned for this year. Loads the first season were atrocious. PIT point of sale was nearly non-existant. Most of the traffic (surprisingly) was SJU point of sale. With PR in the state it is, the PIT-SJU market is non-existant.
AUA - Quite likely coming. Lots of talk from multiple usually reliable sources. Maybe not 2018, its possible, but 2019 might be more likely.
LON - It's coming. Might not be 2018, but 2019 is looking pretty solid. Discussions are at an advanced stage.
AUS - Not sure that market would support any full service carrier. Its been quite successful as a ULCC route and I believe that's its niche.

If PIT does manage to land HQ2 which seems to be a serious possibility then you can throw out everything I just said. It will be a whole new ball game.

Here I go with the broken record of *if PIT were to win HQ2* but...

I have to imagine air cargo would get a big boost. If Prime Air were to come to PIT, would there be enough room for them or other carriers? The north side of the complex seems to get a bit crowded with 5X using their two spaces and FX using 3 out of their 4 spaces, especially for night ops. They're already having to expand the ramp to get QR's big 77F into there.

Runway28L wrote:

Here I go with the broken record of *if PIT were to win HQ2* but...

I have to imagine air cargo would get a big boost. If Prime Air were to come to PIT, would there be enough room for them or other carriers? The north side of the complex seems to get a bit crowded with 5X using their two spaces and FX using 3 out of their 4 spaces, especially for night ops. They're already having to expand the ramp to get QR's big 77F into there.

If PIT won the HQ2 bid and Amazon wanted to make PIT a Prime Air Hub then I am sure the airport would build the facilities necessary for them...

Runway28L wrote:

Here I go with the broken record of *if PIT were to win HQ2* but...

I have to imagine air cargo would get a big boost. If Prime Air were to come to PIT, would there be enough room for them or other carriers? The north side of the complex seems to get a bit crowded with 5X using their two spaces and FX using 3 out of their 4 spaces, especially for night ops. They're already having to expand the ramp to get QR's big 77F into there.

Just to take the other side. Why would Amazon coming to PIT make any difference with cargo? They are bringing a headquarters not a distribution hub. Amazon already has CVG just down the road so I don't see why the location of the headquarters will have much of an impact on their shipping. They still will be shipping to the same places they always have been.

Just like Jshank83 said, I don't think the cargo demand goes with the HQ2 and vice-versa. I don't think the Amazon Air hub will affect CVG's chance in the HQ2 bid (which is no chance). Amazon is going to have offices in Cincinnati for Amazon Air, but that is all we will ever see. Likewise, I don't think Amazon picking PIT as HQ2 would automatically bring major cargo ops to PIT, too much overlap with CVG. I have no doubt PIT will be added as a spoke once the fleet starts expanding beyond its current size, but that is not going to happen for at least another 1-3 years.

Jshank83 wrote:

Runway28L wrote:

Here I go with the broken record of *if PIT were to win HQ2* but...

I have to imagine air cargo would get a big boost. If Prime Air were to come to PIT, would there be enough room for them or other carriers? The north side of the complex seems to get a bit crowded with 5X using their two spaces and FX using 3 out of their 4 spaces, especially for night ops. They're already having to expand the ramp to get QR's big 77F into there.

Just to take the other side. Why would Amazon coming to PIT make any difference with cargo? They are bringing a headquarters not a distribution hub. Amazon already has CVG just down the road so I don't see why the location of the headquarters will have much of an impact on their shipping. They still will be shipping to the same places they always have been.

cvgComair wrote:

Just like Jshank83 said, I don't think the cargo demand goes with the HQ2 and vice-versa. I don't think the Amazon Air hub will affect CVG's chance in the HQ2 bid (which is no chance). Amazon is going to have offices in Cincinnati for Amazon Air, but that is all we will ever see. Likewise, I don't think Amazon picking PIT as HQ2 would automatically bring major cargo ops to PIT, too much overlap with CVG. I have no doubt PIT will be added as a spoke once the fleet starts expanding beyond its current size, but that is not going to happen for at least another 1-3 years.

I didn't mean to imply that Amazon would all of a sudden build a hub or shipping facility at PIT or even at the expense of CVG. I just tried to say that I wouldn't be surprised if Prime Air added probably 1-2 routes if HQ2 came to Pittsburgh and was wondering if there was enough space for them if they were to enter PIT. I too highly doubt anything major is gonna happen on the shipping/distribution front. It'll be more on the side of commercial air service. But like I said, it wouldn't surprise me to see Prime Air do something like PIT-CVG once they get enough 763s converted and decide it's viable.

Runway28L wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

Runway28L wrote:

Here I go with the broken record of *if PIT were to win HQ2* but...

I have to imagine air cargo would get a big boost. If Prime Air were to come to PIT, would there be enough room for them or other carriers? The north side of the complex seems to get a bit crowded with 5X using their two spaces and FX using 3 out of their 4 spaces, especially for night ops. They're already having to expand the ramp to get QR's big 77F into there.

Just to take the other side. Why would Amazon coming to PIT make any difference with cargo? They are bringing a headquarters not a distribution hub. Amazon already has CVG just down the road so I don't see why the location of the headquarters will have much of an impact on their shipping. They still will be shipping to the same places they always have been.

cvgComair wrote:

Just like Jshank83 said, I don't think the cargo demand goes with the HQ2 and vice-versa. I don't think the Amazon Air hub will affect CVG's chance in the HQ2 bid (which is no chance). Amazon is going to have offices in Cincinnati for Amazon Air, but that is all we will ever see. Likewise, I don't think Amazon picking PIT as HQ2 would automatically bring major cargo ops to PIT, too much overlap with CVG. I have no doubt PIT will be added as a spoke once the fleet starts expanding beyond its current size, but that is not going to happen for at least another 1-3 years.

I didn't mean to imply that Amazon would all of a sudden build a hub or shipping facility at PIT or even at the expense of CVG. I just tried to say that I wouldn't be surprised if Prime Air added probably 1-2 routes if HQ2 came to Pittsburgh and was wondering if there was enough space for them if they were to enter PIT. I too highly doubt anything major is gonna happen on the shipping/distribution front. It'll be more on the side of commercial air service. But like I said, it wouldn't surprise me to see Prime Air do something like PIT-CVG once they get enough 763s converted and decide it's viable.

No problem, I get what you were saying now. I am sure PIT-CVG will be a route in the future, regardless of what happens with HQ2.

GSP psgr wrote:

It'll be interesting to see what Delta does at PIT; I think the last year may have taught them that ATL has gotten to be as big as it can be relative to the rest of their network. DTW and MSP aren't booming markets; SLC is growing, but isn't a huge market to start with, and they have definite facility constraints at LAX and SEA. I lean towards them giving LAX a whirl because they don't fly West of MSP right now, unlike American and United. It would broaden their network reach modestly. I always got the impression that CVG was a victim of the pilot crunch, which may have eased somewhat. There's much talk about them building an RDU scale operation at AUS this year, and I think PIT-AUS would be a bit long and thin at the moment.

Trying to predict what F9 and NK are going to do on a week to week basis is a lot of effort for not significant results.

As for Florida, it'd be nice to see a more stable operator to MCO to compliment WN such as B6. I wouldn't hold my breath on a second FLL frequency, though. More likely would be American finally going mainline on one of their frequencies to Miami.

WN is almost out of hubs they can serve from PIT; I think OAK/SFO is more likely than SAN for them, unless you're talking about a weekly frequency.

The only operating base which doesn't have a non-stop from KPIT is KOAK. I'd say the two most likely candidates for new WN routes out of KPIT would be KSAN (I mentioned in the threads last year that KSAN is, with AS introducing non-stop flights to KSEA, the largest of the top 25 O&D domestic markets without non-stop service from KPIT) or KOAK (where they have the aforementioned crew base for Northern California).

Also, KAUS is also a WN focus city, so if DL opts not to add KPIT-KAUS, then WN could certainly look at that as a possibility - presuming such a demand exists beyond what G4 is offering.

Jshank83 wrote:

Runway28L wrote:

Here I go with the broken record of *if PIT were to win HQ2* but...

I have to imagine air cargo would get a big boost. If Prime Air were to come to PIT, would there be enough room for them or other carriers? The north side of the complex seems to get a bit crowded with 5X using their two spaces and FX using 3 out of their 4 spaces, especially for night ops. They're already having to expand the ramp to get QR's big 77F into there.

Just to take the other side. Why would Amazon coming to PIT make any difference with cargo? They are bringing a headquarters not a distribution hub. Amazon already has CVG just down the road so I don't see why the location of the headquarters will have much of an impact on their shipping. They still will be shipping to the same places they always have been.

Plus, Amazon also has KABE as a nearby hub in addition to KCVG. A Prime Air hub at KPIT makes no sense, to be honest.

Just a couple predictions:

1. F9 gives up on KPIT. Considering how much fanfare their arrival brought to KPIT, they've sure underwhelmed big time.
2. WN adds at least one of the following destinations: KOAK, KSAN, KAUS or KEWR/KLGA (depending on spot availability at KLGA, obviously). Gary Kelly seemed to hint at future expansion of WN service at KPIT in an interview with KDKA-TV's Jon Delano a couple years ago around the time WN added KPIT-KLAX. WN has pretty much challenged, and overtaken, AA's status as the market share leader at KPIT as of last year, so this might be the year we see a couple more destinations on the WN radar.

If Amazon's HQ2 comes to Pittsburgh, then flight schedules and airlines will be in flux for some years as Amazon grows and associated companies set up operations in Pittsburgh to support Amazon.

Since DL started PIT - BOS service, I could see DL taking on the PIT - LAX, connecting two hubs and bypassing SLC for west coast flights. Another possibility would be to have PIT - SFO flights, tying in to the BOS flights. This could link SFO and BOS venture capital markets to the PIT tech community. The questions would be, should DL upgrade the PIT - BOS aircraft to mainline type? Would DL PIT - LAX/SFO also make PIT - CDG daily, year-round?

I like the idea of WOW daily May through September. Other international service developments? Too many factors to make a reasonable speculation. Hope the Chinese charters start in the spring or summer.

With OneJet upgrading to CRJs, many new routes from PIT are possible.

I think WOW will cannibalize itself with the opening of the CLE route (and with competition in CLE from the superior but slightly more expensive Icelandair product). So many people (myself included) make the super easy drive from CLE to PIT to save significant money on Transatlantic flying. But those days will be over come May, especially since the US3 are more prone to match Icelandiar than WOW. Some fares to Europe are easily dropping in half from CLE this summer compared to last, and PIT is bound to feel that.

And I wish I understood this (and a bit of a tangent to the discussion), but I'm looking in to a trip to China this spring. PIT is $200 cheaper than CLE. Times four people you bet I'm thinking hard about making the drive. . . . I'll never forget a few years back I drove to PIT to save money flying to Central America and one of my local neighbors was on the same parking shuttle as me. . . . that said it all.

ConcourseZ wrote:

If Amazon's HQ2 comes to Pittsburgh, then flight schedules and airlines will be in flux for some years as Amazon grows and associated companies set up operations in Pittsburgh to support Amazon.

Since DL started PIT - BOS service, I could see DL taking on the PIT - LAX, connecting two hubs and bypassing SLC for west coast flights. Another possibility would be to have PIT - SFO flights, tying in to the BOS flights. This could link SFO and BOS venture capital markets to the PIT tech community. The questions would be, should DL upgrade the PIT - BOS aircraft to mainline type? Would DL PIT - LAX/SFO also make PIT - CDG daily, year-round?

I certainly think PIT-LAX is possible on DL, but PIT-SFO on DL is highly unlikely. If anyone other than UA were to add to PIT-Bay Area, it would be AS/WN. WN will probably continue to add flights from OAK, considering HI flights are coming soon, so WN is probably going to be the second carrier running PIT-Bay Area. I think it is too early to tell whether PIT-BOS should go mainline, considering it was just added in October...

Now, if Pittsburgh were to land Amazon HQ2:

Alaska: Double daily to Seattle, daily to SFO
American: Resumption of LAX service. Potential for focus city, although less likely than Delta.
Delta: New service to SEA, LAX, CVG, RDU, SLC. Potential focus city like RDU.
Southwest: New service to Bay Area, Austin. Potential for STL style reliever hub to compliment BWI.
United: Year round double daily SFO, resumption of LAX.
OneJet: Significant expansion of services; potential for even larger aircraft (C Series?) and service to major corporate destinations. Potential for full blown hub about the size of Continental at Cleveland pre-merger. Opportunities as Alaska's East Coast alliance partner.
JetBlue: Resumption of JFK services, new MCO, double daily FLL
Spirit and Frontier : Who knows?

You guys are putting way too much weight on HQ2. Pittsburgh is a dark horse to even get it. If it miraculously does then it will take 10 years for it to ramp up to its full potential.

If Pgh does get HQ2 I could see SEA and SFO get more solid service and maybe a couple other places such as AUS. But guess what? PIT will be getting that increased service over the next 10 years even without HQ2. Case in point the new or increased service to SEA and SFO are happening right now without HQ2. This talk about full fledged hubs or a cargo hub (which has absolutely nothing to do with HQ2) is nonsense.

GSP psgr wrote:

OneJet: Significant expansion of services; potential for even larger aircraft (C Series?) and service to major corporate destinations.

Funny you mention the C Series at OneJet, I was thinking the exact thing a few days ago. It would be a huge jump in capacity over the E135. But the E135 was a huge jump from the 7 seaters. Just a month ago I wouldn't have thought to hear about E135s at OneJet yet here we are. I think there could be plenty of markets out of PIT and the other focus cities that could work with a C Series. IMHO it would be more of a matter of additional financing, investors, an IPO, etc than a lack of markets in which to operate the C-Series.

GSP psgr wrote:

Now, if Pittsburgh were to land Amazon HQ2:

Alaska: Double daily to Seattle, daily to SFO
American: Resumption of LAX service. Potential for focus city, although less likely than Delta.
Delta: New service to SEA, LAX, CVG, RDU, SLC. Potential focus city like RDU.
Southwest: New service to Bay Area, Austin. Potential for STL style reliever hub to compliment BWI.
United: Year round double daily SFO, resumption of LAX.
OneJet: Significant expansion of services; potential for even larger aircraft (C Series?) and service to major corporate destinations. Potential for full blown hub about the size of Continental at Cleveland pre-merger. Opportunities as Alaska's East Coast alliance partner.
JetBlue: Resumption of JFK services, new MCO, double daily FLL
Spirit and Frontier : Who knows?

Somehow, I could see WN playing a similar role at KPIT to KBWI, with or without HQ2, in the way KSTL seems to be a reliver for KMDW. I get that KBWI is a fortress hub for WN, but could they really be maxed out as far as space is down there? I flew r/t from KPIT to KBWI and I can't help but wonder how much more service they can add their second-largest hub before considering KPIT as a potential reliever hub.

Does anybody know what's up with OneJet? Did they shut down for the holidays? Haven't seen any scheduled flights for 2 weeks on flightaware.

Teeeye81 wrote:

Does anybody know what's up with OneJet? Did they shut down for the holidays? Haven't seen any scheduled flights for 2 weeks on flightaware.

They do shut down for the holidays. No flights the weeks starting 12/25 and 1/1. Unfortunately here in Milwaukee the flight display boards just show their normal weekday flights as Cancelled which looks bad. It would be better if they remove them or if the status could be "NO OP" which I've seen other airline use.

What is a little more puzzling is what is coming back and when.

Week of 1/8
All PIT markets restart except Cincinnati, Louisville, Richmond

Week of 1/15
PIT-SDF, MKE-CMH, MKE-OMA restart

Flights from PIT to Cincinnati and Richmond do not show available to book any time in the 2018. They look on the OneJet site similar to how discontinued Nashville does -- still in the dropdown box but any week you try says no flights available.

What's especially odd is that back in late November / early December I noticed Cincinnati was not able to be booked in January while other markets were, yet just a week or two ago the OAG thread showed all OneJet's routes being pushed out for Jan/Feb/Mar at the normal frequency including PIT-CVG.

I'd really like to see these guys be a little more professional with their PR. No, I don't expect a big press release on dropping a route of course -- few airlines do that. But you jerk around your customers when you leave them in the dark. Certainly business demand mostly evaporates between the holidays and it might be the right call to not fly this week. But there are definitely business travelers this week and next, and to leave them wondering what happened to OneJet is bad.

I get that OneJet didn't keep PIT-BNA because Southwest kills the fare level OneJet needs. But I definitely don't like seeing CVG and RIC likely on the chopping block. They didn't stand out as especially weak in traffic or fare to me so one wonders what's up.

Duplicate error -- delete

knope2001 wrote:

I'd really like to see these guys be a little more professional with their PR. No, I don't expect a big press release on dropping a route of course -- few airlines do that. But you jerk around your customers when you leave them in the dark. Certainly business demand mostly evaporates between the holidays and it might be the right call to not fly this week. But there are definitely business travelers this week and next, and to leave them wondering what happened to OneJet is bad

You might be able to email the airport or airline and find out. Not that it shouldn't be a little more transparent in the first place.

Sure enough – the PIT-CVG and PIT-RIC flights are available for sale as of March 7. I had not checked that far out, and given that they don’t always hit their dates I wouldn’t bet the farm on a precise 3/7 restart, but hopefully so.

Definitely curious what this is about. Business travel does not have nearly the seasonal swings that leisure does, save for a few gaps around holidays where it mostly dries up.

I can think of a scenario which could explain this, but obviously it’s just speculation. The speculative points are in italics:

1. OneJet contracted for five BE40 through 2017 (12/21/2017). Four were based in PIT and one in MKE.
2. OneJet announced plans for Cessna Citation CJ4 to begin in Q1 2018 with a “base-specific” rollout. I believe MKE will be that base.
3. Pittsburgh will only need four BE40 at this point so perhaps they only contracted for four BE40 for 2018.
4. OneJet will apparently only be operating four aircraft until 3/7/2018. They have decided to keep one in MKE and only run three out of PIT, suspending CVG and RIC
5. The CJ4 is planned to enter service 3/7/2018 in Milwaukee.
6. When the CJ4 takes over Milwaukee on 3/7/3018 then the fourth BE40 will move over from MKE to PIT, meaning Cincinnati and Richmond flights can be restored.

This is just piecing together facts and announced plans and filling the gaps with conjecture, of course. But I think it’s reasonably plausible. Maybe they committed to only wet-leasing four BE40 from CFM 2018 when they thought the new Citations would be flying for them in January already. As for dealing with being short an aircraft for two months I can see CVG and RIC getting the short straw. Providence, Columbus and Omaha are all new and to suspend them now would be especially harmful. At Pittsburgh BDL, IND, MKE and ALB have been posting the strongest numbers, and so the line flying to CVG and RIC got suspended.

Again, maybe this isn’t really the story but it’s a plausible one which doesn’t involve calamity or incompetence.

An Emerites A380 from Dubai landed at PIT this evening.

PIT-CZM/FPO officially announced:
http://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/New-Non-Stop-Flights-from-Pittsburgh-to-Cozumel-Mexico-and-Grand-Bahama-IslandVacation-Express-announces-new-flights-to-the-Caribbean-from-349-roundtrip-1012479457


Looks like PIT-JHW will be getting the axe due to lack of EAS funding:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/63056-us-dot-terminates-eas-subsidy-for-jamestown-ny

ConcourseZ wrote:

An Emerites A380 from Dubai landed at PIT this evening.

Here is a link on FlightAware: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE ... /OMDB/KPIT

It looks like it was to IAD, tried to divert to NYC, and settled on PIT.

I hope someone got photos. Where did they park? Are we A380 capable?

There goes our 2nd A380... to Dallas.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE207

Cush wrote:

Here is a link on FlightAware: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE ... /OMDB/KPIT

It looks like it was to IAD, tried to divert to NYC, and settled on PIT.

I hope someone got photos. Where did they park? Are we A380 capable?

It was to JFK, tried to divert to IAD, then came here. Parked at Atlantic, someone posted a pic to PIT's FB page, yes on the physical capability but no on the adequate last minute customs staffing at this time of night.

So after a 15 hour flight, the passengers need to sit on the aircraft at PIT for 3 more hours then endure another 2+ hours to DFW where I can only presume that's where the airplane will be needed in revenue service next. All just because they can't deplane at PIT. What an absolute joke considering all the media today about how the airport can handle things like this, all the diversions get a gate, etc etc. Embarrassing.

Could you imagine being one of perhaps a couple of the 500 people whose final destination is Pittsburgh, to be told you can't get off so you are going to Dallas after a 3 hour sit here? Even for those going to NYC and not being able to get a hotel here and direct flight tomorrow. I'd be furious.

*disregard my comment on the A380 diversion as it was previously addressed*

In fairness to ACAA, isn't customs staffing the responsibility of the feds, not the airport authority?

flyPIT wrote:

There goes our 2nd A380... to Dallas.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE207

Cush wrote:

Here is a link on FlightAware: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE ... /OMDB/KPIT

It looks like it was to IAD, tried to divert to NYC, and settled on PIT.

I hope someone got photos. Where did they park? Are we A380 capable?

It was to JFK, tried to divert to IAD, then came here. Parked at Atlantic, someone posted a pic to PIT's FB page, yes on the physical capability but no on the adequate last minute customs staffing at this time of night.

So after a 15 hour flight, the passengers need to sit on the aircraft at PIT for 3 more hours then endure another 2+ hours to DFW where I can only presume that's where the airplane will be needed in revenue service next. All just because they can't deplane at PIT. What an absolute joke considering all the media today about how the airport can handle things like this, all the diversions get a gate, etc etc. Embarrassing.

Could you imagine being one of perhaps a couple of the 500 people whose final destination is Pittsburgh, to be told you can't get off so you are going to Dallas after a 3 hour sit here? Even for those going to NYC and not being able to get a hotel here and direct flight tomorrow. I'd be furious.

I'm still baffled at why they didn't park at Concourse C to at least give the pax at break or have extra CBP staff on hand knowing the situation that was going on in the entire northeast.
PIT must think they are A380 capable, but it clearly seems like they aren't fully A380 capable. Just painting A380 lines at your only dual jetway gate and declaring yourselves "A380 ready" yet you don't have enough staff to accommodate everyone or lack the equipment (a tow bar of course and PIT didn't even have a pallet loader for pax aircraft until Condor started in June), it doesn't exactly mean you are.

As a taxpayer I would certainly hope there aren’t cbp professionals waiting around for the phone to ring once in an eon when an a380 lands in PIT. It’s an extraordinary circumstance and no business or entity can bear the cost of being prepared just in case the black swan floats by.

Well at a minimum PIT needs to stop gloating that they can properly handle something like this when in fact they can't.

ncflyer wrote:

As a taxpayer I would certainly hope there aren’t cbp professionals waiting around for the phone to ring once in an eon when an a380 lands in PIT. It’s an extraordinary circumstance and no business or entity can bear the cost of being prepared just in case the black swan floats by.

This storm was fast, but not entirely unexpected. If PIT and the CBP had an on-call agreement they could have had staff ready to come in. They don't even need on-call personnel all the time, just when there's a significant chance of storm diversions; even with this rapid storm I bet they would have had several hours notice to activate an on-call. I'm sure it could be funded out of diversion surcharges or some such thing. It's not like they need the CBP staff sitting in the FIS area waiting for something to happen.

You have to strike a balance. You don't throw lots of money at rare occurrences, but if you don't bother to make any arrangements at all, the business will go elsewhere. As it did.

ncflyer wrote:

As a taxpayer I would certainly hope there aren’t cbp professionals waiting around for the phone to ring once in an eon when an a380 lands in PIT. It’s an extraordinary circumstance and no business or entity can bear the cost of being prepared just in case the black swan floats by.

You are absolutely, positively, 100% correct.

flyPIT wrote:

Well at a minimum PIT needs to stop gloating that they can properly handle something like this when in fact they can't.

Agree 100%

PITingres wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

As a taxpayer I would certainly hope there aren’t cbp professionals waiting around for the phone to ring once in an eon when an a380 lands in PIT. It’s an extraordinary circumstance and no business or entity can bear the cost of being prepared just in case the black swan floats by.

This storm was fast, but not entirely unexpected. If PIT and the CBP had an on-call agreement they could have had staff ready to come in. They don't even need on-call personnel all the time, just when there's a significant chance of storm diversions; even with this rapid storm I bet they would have had several hours notice to activate an on-call. I'm sure it could be funded out of diversion surcharges or some such thing. It's not like they need the CBP staff sitting in the FIS area waiting for something to happen.

You have to strike a balance. You don't throw lots of money at rare occurrences, but if you don't bother to make any arrangements at all, the business will go elsewhere. As it did.

That is exactly what i was thinking as well. You don't need CBP sitting around waiting and wasting money, but in the event of expected storms like this, there should be an "on-call" group that can suit up and be there within the hour. I mean it's totally feasible. If some flight attendants, pilots, gate/ramp agents have to live an "on call" life, i don't see why the same couldn't apply to the CBP also.

Incidents like this hurt all of the hard work that the head of the airport is doing. You have a shinning moment to say "hey, we accepted the A380", and instead, they can't do anything. Ugh! I understand it would be a learning curve trying to park and set the aircraft, but it shouldn't be that hard.

Hopefully CBP gets the message and begins a small "on call" group for situations like this.

flyPIT wrote:

There goes our 2nd A380... to Dallas.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE207

Cush wrote:

Here is a link on FlightAware: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE ... /OMDB/KPIT

It looks like it was to IAD, tried to divert to NYC, and settled on PIT.

I hope someone got photos. Where did they park? Are we A380 capable?

It was to JFK, tried to divert to IAD, then came here. Parked at Atlantic, someone posted a pic to PIT's FB page, yes on the physical capability but no on the adequate last minute customs staffing at this time of night.

So after a 15 hour flight, the passengers need to sit on the aircraft at PIT for 3 more hours then endure another 2+ hours to DFW where I can only presume that's where the airplane will be needed in revenue service next. All just because they can't deplane at PIT. What an absolute joke considering all the media today about how the airport can handle things like this, all the diversions get a gate, etc etc. Embarrassing.

Could you imagine being one of perhaps a couple of the 500 people whose final destination is Pittsburgh, to be told you can't get off so you are going to Dallas after a 3 hour sit here? Even for those going to NYC and not being able to get a hotel here and direct flight tomorrow. I'd be furious.

Would it be better that they stand in line for 3 hours going through customs and another two hours waiting to be dispatched to hotels? Im reasonably sure that sitting on a spacious, heated A380 with onboard service would be preferable to the alternative of standing in the PIT customs basement with five degree winds blowing through those leaky doors. Hotel accomodations would be being worked on during the diversion time so their overall wait would be significanlty more comfortable and it would be shorter overall. Plus they end up in an EK city that is prepared ot take care of them both inbound and outbound. The way it was handled was the right way to do it for all involved. Try to see the big picture here.

Flaps wrote:

Would it be better that they stand in line for 3 hours going through customs and another two hours waiting to be dispatched to hotels? Im reasonably sure that sitting on a spacious, heated A380 with onboard service would be preferable to the alternative of standing in the PIT customs basement with five degree winds blowing through those leaky doors. Hotel accomodations would be being worked on during the diversion time so their overall wait would be significanlty more comfortable and it would be shorter overall. Plus they end up in an EK city that is prepared ot take care of them both inbound and outbound. The way it was handled was the right way to do it for all involved. Try to see the big picture here.

Are you seriously suggesting that going to DFW after already sitting on that thing for 18 hours is more preferable than getting off much closer your your destination after *only* 15 hours? If the passengers had a say I think you'd be easily proven wrong. As far as booking a large amount of hotels on short notice its not the huge ordeal you make it out to be, and would need to be done regardless in DFW. I see the big picture just fine, thanks.

flyPIT wrote:

Flaps wrote:

Would it be better that they stand in line for 3 hours going through customs and another two hours waiting to be dispatched to hotels? Im reasonably sure that sitting on a spacious, heated A380 with onboard service would be preferable to the alternative of standing in the PIT customs basement with five degree winds blowing through those leaky doors. Hotel accomodations would be being worked on during the diversion time so their overall wait would be significanlty more comfortable and it would be shorter overall. Plus they end up in an EK city that is prepared ot take care of them both inbound and outbound. The way it was handled was the right way to do it for all involved. Try to see the big picture here.

Are you seriously suggesting that going to DFW after already sitting on that thing for 18 hours is more preferable than getting off much closer your your destination after *only* 15 hours? If the passengers had a say I think you'd be easily proven wrong. As far as booking a large amount of hotels on short notice its not the huge ordeal you make it out to be, and would need to be done regardless in DFW. I see the big picture just fine, thanks.

Suit yourself but you are wrong . You are making a lot of assumptions with obviously little knowledge of the details that go into doing what you suggest. They would have been held up LONGER in PIT than they were by going to DFW. The conditions of theirr holding would be significantly less comfortable. EK would have an aircraft stuck in a non EK city. There are no agreements in place for handling EK pax at PIT. Who would you suggest that could do so?

You seem to have your panties in a wad because something didn't happen that you would like to have seen happen. We all would have liked to see that happen but it was not logistically possible with the circumstances at the time. It does suck but that is the reality of the situation. Armchair quarterback all you want but your pontifications don't change the reality. If the ACAA wants to handle A380 diversions then they need to forge some handling agreements that allow that to happen. If an operator on the field operated A380's there would be no issue. If EK operated at PIT the logistics would be more manageable. If EK wants to use PIT as an A380 alternate then they need to get something in place to allow it to happen. One or the other and its pretty easily workable. With neither, not so much.

Im not saying that's the way it should work. I am saying that's how it does work. I agree with you that these processes should be put in place and should have been done so a long time ago. The ACAA does not control operating agreements between handlers and airlines. They do provide assistance and are generally very good at such but it is ultimately the airlines responsibilty. EK shopped around the field. There were no takers. A pre-existing agreement would ensure this does not happen.

Flaps wrote:

Suit yourself but you are wrong . You are making a lot of assumptions with obviously little knowledge of the details that go into doing what you suggest. They would have been held up LONGER in PIT than they were by going to DFW. The conditions of theirr holding would be significantly less comfortable. EK would have an aircraft stuck in a non EK city. There are no agreements in place for handling EK pax at PIT. Who would you suggest that could do so?

You seem to have your panties in a wad because something didn't happen that you would like to have seen happen. We all would have liked to see that happen but it was not logistically possible with the circumstances at the time. It does suck but that is the reality of the situation. Armchair quarterback all you want but your pontifications don't change the reality. If the ACAA wants to handle A380 diversions then they need to forge some handling agreements that allow that to happen. If an operator on the field operated A380's there would be no issue. If EK operated at PIT the logistics would be more manageable. If EK wants to use PIT as an A380 alternate then they need to get something in place to allow it to happen. One or the other and its pretty easily workable. With neither, not so much.

Im not saying that's the way it should work. I am saying that's how it does work. I agree with you that these processes should be put in place and should have been done so a long time ago. The ACAA does not control operating agreements between handlers and airlines. They do provide assistance and are generally very good at such but it is ultimately the airlines responsibilty. EK shopped around the field. There were no takers. A pre-existing agreement would ensure this does not happen.

Seems like you are the one making assumptions? A 3 hour wait to get through customs? 2 more hours to get transported to a hotel? Where on Earth are you coming up with these numbers? You honestly think sitting in an EK economy seat on an A380 for 20 hours is more comfortable?

The whole premise of this conversation is IF they were able to deplane with proper handling, vs. continuing to be on board for another 5 hours and ending up 1,400 miles from their destination. As far as I can tell that airplane is still at DFW. They could be on their way PIT-JFK by now after proper crew rest IF the flight could have been handled properly. But for some reason you insist going to DFW is somehow preferable but whatever.

flyPIT wrote:

Flaps wrote:

Suit yourself but you are wrong . You are making a lot of assumptions with obviously little knowledge of the details that go into doing what you suggest. They would have been held up LONGER in PIT than they were by going to DFW. The conditions of theirr holding would be significantly less comfortable. EK would have an aircraft stuck in a non EK city. There are no agreements in place for handling EK pax at PIT. Who would you suggest that could do so?

You seem to have your panties in a wad because something didn't happen that you would like to have seen happen. We all would have liked to see that happen but it was not logistically possible with the circumstances at the time. It does suck but that is the reality of the situation. Armchair quarterback all you want but your pontifications don't change the reality. If the ACAA wants to handle A380 diversions then they need to forge some handling agreements that allow that to happen. If an operator on the field operated A380's there would be no issue. If EK operated at PIT the logistics would be more manageable. If EK wants to use PIT as an A380 alternate then they need to get something in place to allow it to happen. One or the other and its pretty easily workable. With neither, not so much.

Im not saying that's the way it should work. I am saying that's how it does work. I agree with you that these processes should be put in place and should have been done so a long time ago. The ACAA does not control operating agreements between handlers and airlines. They do provide assistance and are generally very good at such but it is ultimately the airlines responsibilty. EK shopped around the field. There were no takers. A pre-existing agreement would ensure this does not happen.

Seems like you are the one making assumptions? A 3 hour wait to get through customs? 2 more hours to get transported to a hotel? Where on Earth are you coming up with these numbers? You honestly think sitting in an EK economy seat on an A380 for 20 hours is more comfortable?

The whole premise of this conversation is IF they were able to deplane with proper handling, vs. continuing to be on board for another 5 hours and ending up 1,400 miles from their destination. As far as I can tell that airplane is still at DFW. They could be on their way PIT-JFK by now after proper crew rest IF the flight could have been handled properly. But for some reason you insist going to DFW is somehow preferable but whatever.

I am only insisting that going to DFW was the better option for this particular flight BECAUSE it could not be properly handled in PIT. Of course terminating at PIT would be the better option if it were possible. I am merely stating that it was not possible to properly handle it in PIT under the circumstances in which this diversion occurred. In a perfect world PIT would be able to do this. In reality though it is not a perfect world and PIT cound not handle it under the circumstances in which it presented itself. Everyone on the field would have loved to handle this one if staffing and equipment were both available to do so. In this case neither were. Trying to handle that flight with what was actually available would have ended up on the front page and given the airport an even bigger black eye than it got. The pax would have faced an even worse situation than what they actually ended up dealing with. It was a no win either way. The course of action taken was the lesser and more controllable of the two evils.

flyPIT wrote:

Looks like PIT-JHW will be getting the axe due to lack of EAS funding:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/63056-us-dot-terminates-eas-subsidy-for-jamestown-ny

Unfortunately nearly all of Southern’s operation in the Mid-Atlantic is in serious danger of losing EAS. Except for markets 210+ miles from a medium- or large-hub airport the per-passenger cap cannot exceed $200. Only Morgantown meets that requirement. In addition to that Jamestown, Altoona, Franklin and DuBois also boarded fewer than 10 passengers per day which will also get you kicked off of EAS.

Per-passenger cap
$460 Jamestown**
$448 Altoona**
$413 Franklin/Oil City**
$412 DuBois**
$379 Lancaster
$281 Johnstown
$242 Bradford
$241 Hagerstown
$156 Morgantown

**also did not enplane at least 10 passengers per day, an EAS requirement**

Southern's subsidy for these routes is about $21 million per year and they form something of a critical mass for them, one which lets them try something unsubsidized like PIT-MDT. With planes and crew and facilities already in Pennsylvania and (generally) paid for by EAS it's comparably cheap to try Harrisburg, and maybe eventually Youngstown or Toledo or who knows.

About 25% of the 110-ish EAS markets (outside of Alaska) were in violation of minimum enplanements or excessive per-passenger subsidy and most got a waiver to continue receiving subsidy. Many of those airports made a case on why they can get back in compliance – perhaps they had a service hiatus or have a new carrier which offers much better service versus the carrier they had. But this group of PA/MD markets are worrisome as I don’t see a big reason why traffic will boom – in some traffic would need to more than double to get under the $200 cap. Not that Southern is a crappy carrier or that they have not been trying, but It’s a tough sell. The DoT is fairly slow to kick cities off of EAS but their patience isn't endless -- scores of cities have lost EAS over the years.