B752OS
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:06 pm

Capn wrote:
I have a few questions about possible Term. A expansion. Please bear with me, I haven't been there in awhile, and forgive me If posted earlier.

1 Are all those cargo areas at the end of A in use ?
2 If they are, can they be relocated somewhere else on the property ?

Please answer objectively. I am just trying to understand if there is room for DL.to expand their operations in the future.
Thanks in advance. I am looking forward to hearing from all you BOS posters.
One of my favorite threads.


Unless they got rid of 14/32, the cargo facilities (which are in use) are not going anywhere and thus any expansion at Terminal A cannot happen. Just guessing, but if they were to get rid of that runway and move the cargo facilities along the water, it looks like you could then build a 10-12 gate terminal. Another thing blocking the way is the Ted Williams Tunnel vent building. Get rid of the vent building, runway 14/32 and move the cargo facilities plus Massport Fire to along the water and then you could really extend the A satellite and have a pretty substantial expansion. But of course doing all of that is easier said than done and I am not sure the vent building could be moved.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:18 pm

Awhile back, I was at TA and overheard two people discussing this exact topic. The "brilliant" idea that they came up with was for the runway and the cargo buildings to "just" swap places. Apparently they don't think 4R is needed much. Or that the truck bay for the cargo terminal needs access to...public roads. I went and got a stiff gin after listening to that.

Anyway, I mean I think there are some potential options to explore there, but nothing is easy or obvious. I'm also not clear on when DL would actually need additional capacity.

Another option could be to see if there's a more efficient layout for the cargo terminal buildings, to open up some space by the TA satellite.

There is also the old Eagle's Nest, which B6 is using for parking.

It is a fun thought exercise though.
Last edited by tlecam on Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:19 pm

Kno wrote:
Capn wrote:
I have a few questions about possible Term. A expansion. Please bear with me, I haven't been there in awhile, and forgive me If posted earlier.

1 Are all those cargo areas at the end of A in use ?
2 If they are, can they be relocated somewhere else on the property ?

Please answer objectively. I am just trying to understand if there is room for DL.to expand their operations in the future.
Thanks in advance. I am looking forward to hearing from all you BOS posters.
One of my favorite threads.


Looking at the map I wonder about moving that cargo area to the area around the ends of 4R and 32 and creating an underground tunnel for the trucks to access it. That would make way for huge pax expansion possibilities. someone who knows more than me feel free to shoot this down.


Yeah i've looked at that too, however it's unlikely Fedex etc. are going to want to move, it's prime real estate close to the city, which is great for their services, particularly when air freight for them is usually short time delivery. Let's also not forget BOS runs around 700m lbs of Cargo a year, plenty of that comes on the regular services, but a lot also comes on Fed Ex and UPS, who need those facilities. So it's not an easy fix. You are right, if you could move those services out, you could create a huge amount of space to expand beyond A13, but that's a tough conversation to have.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
ScottB
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:12 pm

VS4ever wrote:
Yeah i've looked at that too, however it's unlikely Fedex etc. are going to want to move, it's prime real estate close to the city, which is great for their services, particularly when air freight for them is usually short time delivery. Let's also not forget BOS runs around 700m lbs of Cargo a year, plenty of that comes on the regular services, but a lot also comes on Fed Ex and UPS, who need those facilities. So it's not an easy fix. You are right, if you could move those services out, you could create a huge amount of space to expand beyond A13, but that's a tough conversation to have.


Actually, there's a very easy fix. Build a new economy garage on top of the taxi staging area and use that space for FedEx and UPS -- this would free up the space needed to expand the A satellite to the southeast past A13. If you wanted to move all the cargo facilities out of that part of the airfield, there's some land east of Neptune Rd which appears to be be mostly used for equipment storage and could probably be repurposed. It might be possible to build a double-loaded concourse on that footprint if it were restricted to RJs on one side (this would require closing Harborside Dr. past the Hyatt). In an ideal world, they'd also tunnel under E & K to link an expanded satellite to Terminal B -- this would keep any investment in the facility from being entirely dependent on Delta's plans for BOS.

B752OS wrote:
The Terminal B to C connector also looks like it will be a great project - it's adding a pretty large amount of terminal space and will drastically improve the area in its current state.


I think the two most important improvements basically come from connecting C40-42 to the rest of Terminal C as well as connecting the high B gates (and the rest of B) to Terminal C; that will optimize the connecting experience for B6 passengers and allow for better utilization of B37 & B38. The connector project only creates one additional gate since that space is already fairly well-utilized for gates due to the geometry between B & C.
 
FGITD
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:37 pm

Capn wrote:
I have a few questions about possible Term. A expansion. Please bear with me, I haven't been there in awhile, and forgive me If posted earlier.

1 Are all those cargo areas at the end of A in use ?
2 If they are, can they be relocated somewhere else on the property ?

Please answer objectively. I am just trying to understand if there is room for DL.to expand their operations in the future.
Thanks in advance. I am looking forward to hearing from all you BOS posters.
One of my favorite threads.


1. Yes, very much in use. UPS and DHL are the only ones who don't use it. FedEx of course is the primary user, and some days will have 4 or 5 aircraft over there at once. But pretty much all the international cargo, and presumably most domestic comes through there.

2. The only easy option would be to push it all back, towards the harbor. This would result in closing 14/32, and would complicate things, because the whole roadway etc would have to be reconfigured. Plus I think even with the building literally right up on the water, you'd have a hard time fitting a 767 or a300 in that space.

Then you get into the other details. Fire station, deicing area, overnight parking, etc etc.

Overall it seems like the space definitely could have been put to better use, but the time to do so was 20 years ago
 
B752OS
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:39 pm

https://imgur.com/a/DAbuPjF

Just for fun….if Massport really wanted to get crazy they could do something like this. Fill in the area circled in red and then move all the cargo buildings plus Massport Fire over there. Build a new economy parking lot adjacent to the car rental facility (circled in blue). Fill in the area in orange and move the hangars over there. Move Troop F of the State Police up to Suffolk Downs. Get rid of 14/32.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:55 pm

B752OS wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/DAbuPjF

Just for fun….if Massport really wanted to get crazy they could do something like this. Fill in the area circled in red and then move all the cargo buildings plus Massport Fire over there. Build a new economy parking lot adjacent to the car rental facility (circled in blue). Fill in the area in orange and move the hangars over there. Move Troop F of the State Police up to Suffolk Downs. Get rid of 14/32.


You forgot to mention to most edgy option: Bulldoze East Boston/Jeffries Point ;)
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:56 pm

http://www.internationalmeetingsreview. ... -fi-104784

Well guess I won't be using the logan wi-fi next time i am there...
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
jworks158
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:55 am

B752OS wrote:
http://www.massport.com/media/2991/terminal-c-canopy-connector-and-roadway-project-ea.pdf


In section 1.7.1 "Since the new Air Traffic Control Tower was constructed in 1973, the Old Tower has been converted to office space, though it is inefficiently arranged and inconvenient. The Old Tower is no longer needed for its original air traffic control purposes and its central location takes up valuable roadway/curb space in a constricted area of the airport roadway system."

I am a little confused by which is the old tower, and which is the new tower.
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FGITD
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:12 am

jworks158 wrote:
B752OS wrote:
http://www.massport.com/media/2991/terminal-c-canopy-connector-and-roadway-project-ea.pdf


In section 1.7.1 "Since the new Air Traffic Control Tower was constructed in 1973, the Old Tower has been converted to office space, though it is inefficiently arranged and inconvenient. The Old Tower is no longer needed for its original air traffic control purposes and its central location takes up valuable roadway/curb space in a constricted area of the airport roadway system."

I am a little confused by which is the old tower, and which is the new tower.



I believe the old tower is the smaller, black building directly across from the "new" twin pylon tower. Used to be FAA's Boston Center until they went up to Nashua. Its existence does create something of a funnel between B and C
 
jworks158
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:24 am

FGITD wrote:
jworks158 wrote:
B752OS wrote:
http://www.massport.com/media/2991/terminal-c-canopy-connector-and-roadway-project-ea.pdf


In section 1.7.1 "Since the new Air Traffic Control Tower was constructed in 1973, the Old Tower has been converted to office space, though it is inefficiently arranged and inconvenient. The Old Tower is no longer needed for its original air traffic control purposes and its central location takes up valuable roadway/curb space in a constricted area of the airport roadway system."

I am a little confused by which is the old tower, and which is the new tower.



I believe the old tower is the smaller, black building directly across from the "new" twin pylon tower. Used to be FAA's Boston Center until they went up to Nashua. Its existence does create something of a funnel between B and C


Ahh ok, I got scared when I read your message earlier, that they were gonna take down the twin pylon tower...
Traveled on..
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RL757PVD
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:37 am

B752OS wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/DAbuPjF

Just for fun….if Massport really wanted to get crazy they could do something like this. Fill in the area circled in red and then move all the cargo buildings plus Massport Fire over there. Build a new economy parking lot adjacent to the car rental facility (circled in blue). Fill in the area in orange and move the hangars over there. Move Troop F of the State Police up to Suffolk Downs. Get rid of 14/32.


By the time you get the environmental approvals for that, the entire airfield will be underwater
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
FGITD
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:37 am

jworks158 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
jworks158 wrote:

In section 1.7.1 "Since the new Air Traffic Control Tower was constructed in 1973, the Old Tower has been converted to office space, though it is inefficiently arranged and inconvenient. The Old Tower is no longer needed for its original air traffic control purposes and its central location takes up valuable roadway/curb space in a constricted area of the airport roadway system."

I am a little confused by which is the old tower, and which is the new tower.



I believe the old tower is the smaller, black building directly across from the "new" twin pylon tower. Used to be FAA's Boston Center until they went up to Nashua. Its existence does create something of a funnel between B and C


Ahh ok, I got scared when I read your message earlier, that they were gonna take down the twin pylon tower...


Chatter around my parts (which is in no way reliable for most things) is that they ARE going to replace the twin pylon tower. Allegedly the old tower and the "new" tower are to be replaced. No rumors on relocation or anything. Pretty much starts and stops at "replacing the atc facilities"

As others have pointed out, it's more complicated because atc towers are FAA facilities, so despite using it for offices, Massport can't just decide to knock it down. And of course there's the minor complication of still having to provide atc services, regardless of construction status. Though it might be fun to just be an uncontrolled field for a few years...

Of course I've got no actual proof beyond "he said she said" so take it with a grain of salt.
 
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dvincent
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:00 am

Where would one build a new tower at BOS if the current twin-pylon tower is retired? You kind of have to put it in the place where the current tower is to have the best survey of the field.
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airbazar
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:27 pm

B752OS wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/DAbuPjF

Just for fun….if Massport really wanted to get crazy they could do something like this. Fill in the area circled in red and then move all the cargo buildings plus Massport Fire over there. Build a new economy parking lot adjacent to the car rental facility (circled in blue). Fill in the area in orange and move the hangars over there. Move Troop F of the State Police up to Suffolk Downs. Get rid of 14/32.

Eheh, filling in the harbor would be a fun exercise.
The current transportation building should have been built with twice the size to include a new parking garage, connected to the terminals by the eventual people mover. Then a section of the existing garage near terminal C should be demolished to allow the terminals to grow inward (land side), since there's no room to grow the terminals outward, and to make room for better roadways with expanded App Ride pickup/dropoff areas.
Logan's single biggest space hog is the central parking garage. Unfortunately that is a huge money maker so in order to move it another location needs to be found.
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:19 pm

airbazar wrote:
B752OS wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/DAbuPjF

Just for fun….if Massport really wanted to get crazy they could do something like this. Fill in the area circled in red and then move all the cargo buildings plus Massport Fire over there. Build a new economy parking lot adjacent to the car rental facility (circled in blue). Fill in the area in orange and move the hangars over there. Move Troop F of the State Police up to Suffolk Downs. Get rid of 14/32.

Eheh, filling in the harbor would be a fun exercise.
The current transportation building should have been built with twice the size to include a new parking garage, connected to the terminals by the eventual people mover. Then a section of the existing garage near terminal C should be demolished to allow the terminals to grow inward (land side), since there's no room to grow the terminals outward, and to make room for better roadways with expanded App Ride pickup/dropoff areas.
Logan's single biggest space hog is the central parking garage. Unfortunately that is a huge money maker so in order to move it another location needs to be found.


I'd be in favor of filling in the habor (I know that's controversial). I feel they would be more likely to demolish everything and start fresh before that. Although if we ever got desperate enough....it is nice we have that option. Even though navigating through the environmental approvement would be hell.
 
tjerome
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:33 am

B752OS wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/DAbuPjF

Just for fun….if Massport really wanted to get crazy they could do something like this. Fill in the area circled in red and then move all the cargo buildings plus Massport Fire over there. Build a new economy parking lot adjacent to the car rental facility (circled in blue). Fill in the area in orange and move the hangars over there. Move Troop F of the State Police up to Suffolk Downs. Get rid of 14/32.


The issue with putting hangars in the orange circled area is that planes getting towed do not cross runways, airline/maintenance employees can do so on their own without Massport being involved but when they need to do a high power engine run then they need an escort and that just wouldn't work in the middle of the summer at this airport.

That and the red definitely should be filled in and used for something though. Red would be a great spot for cargo and just build either a tunnel or a road that has fence around the AOA to get vehicles over to pick up/drop off at the facilities.

Really wish we could just expand in those areas plus the area north of 15R and west of 22R, just level the entire airport and all runways, and rebuild it all with that expanded land. More runway/taxiway space, more terminal space, new roadways. It will have to happen at some point.
The comments and opinions expressed here are my own.
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airbazar
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:41 pm

pitbosflyer wrote:
I'd be in favor of filling in the habor (I know that's controversial). I feel they would be more likely to demolish everything and start fresh before that. Although if we ever got desperate enough....it is nice we have that option. Even though navigating through the environmental approvement would be hell.

The problem with filling the harbor besides the fact that it is a National Park and a shipping channel and therefore not even worth considering is that any activity to and from that side of the airfield would have to cross an active runway and therefore a really bad idea because it would severely limit the number of movements in an airport that has no space to build new runways.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:02 pm

airbazar wrote:
pitbosflyer wrote:
I'd be in favor of filling in the habor (I know that's controversial). I feel they would be more likely to demolish everything and start fresh before that. Although if we ever got desperate enough....it is nice we have that option. Even though navigating through the environmental approvement would be hell.

The problem with filling the harbor besides the fact that it is a National Park and a shipping channel and therefore not even worth considering is that any activity to and from that side of the airfield would have to cross an active runway and therefore a really bad idea because it would severely limit the number of movements in an airport that has no space to build new runways.


If you are going to affect the environment, I'd rather see 93/128 get fixed before filling a cleaned up Boston Harbor. This could have a long term benefit (less idling traffic). I think there are some wetlands in the way of the perfect fix.

At some point MHT ORH PVD are going to benefit from BOS constraints.
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2018 Flights: B6 BOS-BGI-BOS, WN BOS-MDW-BOS, B6 BOS-PDX-BOS
 
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tlecam
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:05 pm

delta increasing a couple of frequencies next summer per the OAG thread - BNA up to 4x daily; JAX up to 3x.
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Capn
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:31 pm

Thanks for all the great replies. It is good to see that there are possible solutions to an expansion of A. I'm sure any options are a long way off and quite expensive, but at some point in time one will probably be chosen. I don't see DL. being held back for lack of gate space. I get the feeling BOS is going to be a much larger operation for them then most imagine.
This is not being mean to B6, just business...
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:15 pm

tlecam wrote:
delta increasing a couple of frequencies next summer per the OAG thread - BNA up to 4x daily; JAX up to 3x.


Why not take one of those E-Jets or CR9's and send it to SDF instead?
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN

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VS4ever
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:47 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
tlecam wrote:
delta increasing a couple of frequencies next summer per the OAG thread - BNA up to 4x daily; JAX up to 3x.


Why not take one of those E-Jets or CR9's and send it to SDF instead?


Why would they do that when they just want to fight B6, because it’s all about that right?
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NickolayAv
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:30 pm

Just interested, now that the TACV flight has been flying for well over half a year, is there any info on how the loads are on that flight?
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:39 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
Just interested, now that the TACV flight has been flying for well over half a year, is there any info on how the loads are on that flight?

Unless someone beats me to it, I will pull the info when I get home. We only have until April 18 in the T-100 stats
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:57 am

NickolayAv wrote:
Just interested, now that the TACV flight has been flying for well over half a year, is there any info on how the loads are on that flight?



Jan to April 2018 is 72.02%

Jan - 68.7% - 877 pax on 1,276 seats
Feb - 66.9% - 974 pax on 1,456 seats
Mar - 70.2% - 1,150 pax on 1,638 seats
Apr - 81% - 1,326 pax on 1,638 seats
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tphuang
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:12 am

VS4ever wrote:

Why would they do that when they just want to fight B6, because it’s all about that right?


lol, it's funny you pointed that out. It seems like DL would have a lot easier time entering markets with no competition like SAT, MEM and SDF than markets that are heavily dominated by B6 like CHS, SAV, RSW and PBI.
 
PVD757
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:22 am

VS4ever wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
Just interested, now that the TACV flight has been flying for well over half a year, is there any info on how the loads are on that flight?



Jan to April 2018 is 72.02%

Jan - 68.7% - 877 pax on 1,276 seats
Feb - 66.9% - 974 pax on 1,456 seats
Mar - 70.2% - 1,150 pax on 1,638 seats
Apr - 81% - 1,326 pax on 1,638 seats


They should have never left PVD. Loads were 86, 81, 86, and 91 the same months the year before on a larger seating capacity aircraft at an airport with one-third BOS’s costs.
 
33lspotter
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:54 am

Serious question: has the building and existence of 14/32 been any sort of success or is it just a total bust? I know that the hotel was put in a location to ensure that the runway was unidirectional but given that and the short length (and the wind threshold for use) it hardly seems useful or used. Able to be persuaded.
 
FGITD
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:37 am

33lspotter wrote:
Serious question: has the building and existence of 14/32 been any sort of success or is it just a total bust? I know that the hotel was put in a location to ensure that the runway was unidirectional but given that and the short length (and the wind threshold for use) it hardly seems useful or used. Able to be persuaded.



Definitely not a total bust, but in my very limited experience and knowledge, it certainly doesn't seem like it's used much at all.

The space is useful though. Overnight parking, deicing, VIP arrivals, and staging area for events/accidents. Although I think they aren't doing deicing over there this teaser for whatever reason.

Definitely some of the best views of the city from over there though.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:38 am

PVD757 wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
NickolayAv wrote:
Just interested, now that the TACV flight has been flying for well over half a year, is there any info on how the loads are on that flight?



Jan to April 2018 is 72.02%

Jan - 68.7% - 877 pax on 1,276 seats
Feb - 66.9% - 974 pax on 1,456 seats
Mar - 70.2% - 1,150 pax on 1,638 seats
Apr - 81% - 1,326 pax on 1,638 seats


They should have never left PVD. Loads were 86, 81, 86, and 91 the same months the year before on a larger seating capacity aircraft at an airport with one-third BOS’s costs.


I thought the reasoning for the move was entirely because [it was Iceland air right?] took over flying for them and the logistics just made more sense in that case. Wasn't really about which airport caught cape verdean traffic better.
 
PVD757
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:34 am

Jouhou wrote:
PVD757 wrote:
VS4ever wrote:


Jan to April 2018 is 72.02%

Jan - 68.7% - 877 pax on 1,276 seats
Feb - 66.9% - 974 pax on 1,456 seats
Mar - 70.2% - 1,150 pax on 1,638 seats
Apr - 81% - 1,326 pax on 1,638 seats


They should have never left PVD. Loads were 86, 81, 86, and 91 the same months the year before on a larger seating capacity aircraft at an airport with one-third BOS’s costs.


I thought the reasoning for the move was entirely because [it was Iceland air right?] took over flying for them and the logistics just made more sense in that case. Wasn't really about which airport caught cape verdean traffic better.


It was but the change clearly had a significant negative effect.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:25 pm

PVD757 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
PVD757 wrote:

They should have never left PVD. Loads were 86, 81, 86, and 91 the same months the year before on a larger seating capacity aircraft at an airport with one-third BOS’s costs.


I thought the reasoning for the move was entirely because [it was Iceland air right?] took over flying for them and the logistics just made more sense in that case. Wasn't really about which airport caught cape verdean traffic better.


It was but the change clearly had a significant negative effect.


If you live somewhere where PVD is more convenient, what are your other options for getting to Cape Verde? Does the S4 PVD-PDL flight allow one to connect to Cape Verde? Anything else would probably be two stops or self connects.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN

2018 Flights: B6 BOS-BGI-BOS, WN BOS-MDW-BOS, B6 BOS-PDX-BOS
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:43 pm

With the news that FI is buying WW and have them exist as separate brands. Any thoughts for how this will affect BOS?
https://skift.com/2018/11/05/icelandair ... l-wow-air/

I could see them positioning FI has a higher cost business travel focused airline now that they don't need to compete with WW on economy fares. While WW remains the super low cost leisure travel airline. As far as frequency changes to BOS by both....we will see.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:15 pm

pitbosflyer wrote:
With the news that FI is buying WW and have them exist as separate brands. Any thoughts for how this will affect BOS?
https://skift.com/2018/11/05/icelandair ... l-wow-air/

I could see them positioning FI has a higher cost business travel focused airline now that they don't need to compete with WW on economy fares. While WW remains the super low cost leisure travel airline. As far as frequency changes to BOS by both....we will see.


I think its going to be status quo.

Right now BOS-KEF flights depart 7:10pm (WW) 9:30pm (FI) 11:45 pm(FI). There's your three banks for the KEF hub. Don't forget the fish either!! ;)
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN

2018 Flights: B6 BOS-BGI-BOS, WN BOS-MDW-BOS, B6 BOS-PDX-BOS
 
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chrisnh
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:15 pm

This morning I took DL 994 from Boston to Minneapolis, using 737-800 N3751B. Nothing remarkable about that by any means, but something about it was: the plane had just been ferried in from Green Bay after it had flown PVD-Green Bay with the Green Bay Packers. I’m sure the entire team didn’t fit on my plane, but I was told by crew that players were on it. Of course, the plane went PVD-GRB-BOS and never got cleaned. So the BOS folks got that honor, and it took a little extra time to do so.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:24 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
pitbosflyer wrote:
With the news that FI is buying WW and have them exist as separate brands. Any thoughts for how this will affect BOS?
https://skift.com/2018/11/05/icelandair ... l-wow-air/

I could see them positioning FI has a higher cost business travel focused airline now that they don't need to compete with WW on economy fares. While WW remains the super low cost leisure travel airline. As far as frequency changes to BOS by both....we will see.


I think its going to be status quo.

Right now BOS-KEF flights depart 7:10pm (WW) 9:30pm (FI) 11:45 pm(FI). There's your three banks for the KEF hub. Don't forget the fish either!! ;)


ok, I'll say it... WOW, was not expecting this.. makes sense and stops the fighting between the two, you can get synergies on the back end to raise profitability.
I agree for right now, I expect to see no changes at BOS even if they do merge, which hasn't been signed off yet of course, both have an important role to play and with no fighting on price, that will help them a lot. Think of WOW as Level, and Icelandair as EI in this scenario, this also helps them fight against DY/DI/D8 and IAG.

The fleet mix will be interesting. FI's flying fish 757's, 767's and 738's vs WW's purple warrior 321's and 330's.

according to airfleets.net FI, currently have 3 MAX's, 29 fish flyers (2 300's series) and 4 763's. WW have 3 A320's (1 neo), 14 A321's (2 neo's) and 3 333's.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
B752OS
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:26 pm

chrisnh wrote:
This morning I took DL 994 from Boston to Minneapolis, using 737-800 N3751B. Nothing remarkable about that by any means, but something about it was: the plane had just been ferried in from Green Bay after it had flown PVD-Green Bay with the Green Bay Packers. I’m sure the entire team didn’t fit on my plane, but I was told by crew that players were on it. Of course, the plane went PVD-GRB-BOS and never got cleaned. So the BOS folks got that honor, and it took a little extra time to do so.


https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KGRB/KBED
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KGRB/KBED

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KPVD/KGRB
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KPVD/KGRB

I noticed the Packers flew into Hanscom on Saturday and left from PVD on Sunday. 2 Delta planes flew GBR-BED on Saturday. Then 2 planes flew PVD-GRB early this morning. Interesting that the team has two charters.
Last edited by B752OS on Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:26 pm

Isn't the whole problem excessive TATL and KEF capacity? If so, the buy-out might be related to just getting rid of a competitor. And that means: LESS ex-BOS flights to KEF and beyond.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:37 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Isn't the whole problem excessive TATL and KEF capacity? If so, the buy-out might be related to just getting rid of a competitor. And that means: LESS ex-BOS flights to KEF and beyond.



Not necessarily, could it happen, of course it could, but those flights tend to go out pretty full, you could raise the fares a bit and still do fine. Remember FI just cut from 3 to 2 daily anyway, so now they are back to where they are started.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
PVD757
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:38 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
PVD757 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

I thought the reasoning for the move was entirely because [it was Iceland air right?] took over flying for them and the logistics just made more sense in that case. Wasn't really about which airport caught cape verdean traffic better.


It was but the change clearly had a significant negative effect.


If you live somewhere where PVD is more convenient, what are your other options for getting to Cape Verde? Does the S4 PVD-PDL flight allow one to connect to Cape Verde? Anything else would probably be two stops or self connects.


There are no reasonable options from PVD at all. In my opinion, by moving to BOS, the CV community is exposed to S4 and TP. If PVD is more convenient to you (a large portion of the CV community is) and you’re only realistic choices are all out of BOS versus going with the only option (that used to be) from PVD you’ll weigh all option more closely.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:41 pm

VS4ever wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Isn't the whole problem excessive TATL and KEF capacity? If so, the buy-out might be related to just getting rid of a competitor. And that means: LESS ex-BOS flights to KEF and beyond.



Not necessarily, could it happen, of course it could, but those flights tend to go out pretty full, you could raise the fares a bit and still do fine. Remember FI just cut from 3 to 2 daily anyway, so now they are back to where they are started.


WOW wasn't struggling because of full planes, it was because WOW didn't make enough money. But I bet you already know that: full planes ≠ profits.
 
airbazar
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:54 pm

PVD757 wrote:
They should have never left PVD. Loads were 86, 81, 86, and 91 the same months the year before on a larger seating capacity aircraft at an airport with one-third BOS’s costs.

That doesn't mean anything. The lower LF in no way reflects the move to Boston. This market is a captive audience. No one is going to NOT go to Cape Verde because the flight departs from BOS instead of PVD. You could argue that the yields might be different but the LF has nothing to do with where this flight operates to since it is nearly 100% VFR and it was until last year the only option for getting there.
IMO the lower LF this year has to do with increased competition and greater supply in the market. This past year S4 entered the Cape Verde market.
https://www.azoresairlines.pt/en/destin ... cape-verde
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:41 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Isn't the whole problem excessive TATL and KEF capacity? If so, the buy-out might be related to just getting rid of a competitor. And that means: LESS ex-BOS flights to KEF and beyond.



Not necessarily, could it happen, of course it could, but those flights tend to go out pretty full, you could raise the fares a bit and still do fine. Remember FI just cut from 3 to 2 daily anyway, so now they are back to where they are started.


WOW wasn't struggling because of full planes, it was because WOW didn't make enough money. But I bet you already know that: full planes ≠ profits.

Of course I do, I’ve been an accountant for 25+ years :), what I was alluding to, is that they don’t necessarily need to cut the capacity, they already did, you can raise the fares now there is limited competition and coupled with the back office synergies will help return to profitability (not the only way it will be done of course), hence why believe it’s unlikely to change too much. As I said, of course it could change, but with FI already adjusting their capacity on the route, there is less need to do so. Just my opinion of course.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
33lspotter
Posts: 455
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:35 pm

FGITD wrote:
Definitely not a total bust, but in my very limited experience and knowledge, it certainly doesn't seem like it's used much at all.

The space is useful though. Overnight parking, deicing, VIP arrivals, and staging area for events/accidents. Although I think they aren't doing deicing over there this teaser for whatever reason.

Definitely some of the best views of the city from over there though.


Makes sense. I feel like I've seen that space used for a number of things. Still, interesting that a runway is getting "usefulness" out of things that aren't takeoffs and landings. :duck:
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:43 pm

33lspotter wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Definitely not a total bust, but in my very limited experience and knowledge, it certainly doesn't seem like it's used much at all.

The space is useful though. Overnight parking, deicing, VIP arrivals, and staging area for events/accidents. Although I think they aren't doing deicing over there this teaser for whatever reason.

Definitely some of the best views of the city from over there though.


Makes sense. I feel like I've seen that space used for a number of things. Still, interesting that a runway is getting "usefulness" out of things that aren't takeoffs and landings. :duck:


Massport log jet activity and for 14/32 it gets used for departures around 1.5% of the time, probably higher for the props, but no data to support.

It’s a great space, I think they refer to it as the j pad. I’ve been over there on a B6 ORD departure when it got delayed for weather and a couple of times for deicing.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
PVD757
Posts: 3146
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:16 pm

airbazar wrote:
PVD757 wrote:
They should have never left PVD. Loads were 86, 81, 86, and 91 the same months the year before on a larger seating capacity aircraft at an airport with one-third BOS’s costs.

That doesn't mean anything. The lower LF in no way reflects the move to Boston. This market is a captive audience. No one is going to NOT go to Cape Verde because the flight departs from BOS instead of PVD. You could argue that the yields might be different but the LF has nothing to do with where this flight operates to since it is nearly 100% VFR and it was until last year the only option for getting there.
IMO the lower LF this year has to do with increased competition and greater supply in the market. This past year S4 entered the Cape Verde market.
https://www.azoresairlines.pt/en/destin ... cape-verde


Yields were down about 10% during that four month period too which I think was before S4 entered the market.
 
airbazar
Posts: 8912
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:16 pm

33lspotter wrote:
Makes sense. I feel like I've seen that space used for a number of things. Still, interesting that a runway is getting "usefulness" out of things that aren't takeoffs and landings. :duck:

I think this has been discussed here a few times but that runway was conceived at a time when BOS movements were a lot higher than they are today, and there were a lot more smaller regional flights on turboprops. The runway was meant to remove those aircraft from the larger runway at certain times of the year in order to improve on-time performance. The industry has changed a lot and hardly anyone is flying turbo-props in and out of Logan these days.
 
33lspotter
Posts: 455
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:26 pm

airbazar wrote:
I think this has been discussed here a few times but that runway was conceived at a time when BOS movements were a lot higher than they are today, and there were a lot more smaller regional flights on turboprops. The runway was meant to remove those aircraft from the larger runway at certain times of the year in order to improve on-time performance. The industry has changed a lot and hardly anyone is flying turbo-props in and out of Logan these days.


It probably has. That provides good clarification, though, as I never put together the former presence of (and large reduction in) many RJs/props — obviously BOS has seen large reductions in both over the last 15 or so years.
 
FGITD
Posts: 330
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Re: Boston aviation - 2018

Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:23 pm

VS4ever wrote:

Makes sense. I feel like I've seen that space used for a number of things. Still, interesting that a runway is getting "usefulness" out of things that aren't takeoffs and landings. :duck:


Massport log jet activity and for 14/32 it gets used for departures around 1.5% of the time, probably higher for the props, but no data to support.

It’s a great space, I think they refer to it as the j pad. I’ve been over there on a B6 ORD departure when it got delayed for weather and a couple of times for deicing.[/quote]

It is indeed the J pad. Not sure how they landed on that name. It's one of the few, unassigned spaces at the airport.

JetBlue actually uses the old eagle's nest terminal to deice, car wash style. Which revisits the entire purpose of that runway. Under the right circumstances, taxi to airborne in a matter of minutes would have been possible from that terminal.

These days I think the only use the terminal gets is deicers using the bathroom. Shame they can't move someone over there, but with all the sought after connections these days, it's extremely isolated.

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