Please continue your discussion and to post your updates here.

Link to previous thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=604983

All the best for 2018.

Yesterday, 11:03 am

„Exciting news and destinations from LX: seasonal flights to Toulon, Pula and Kalamata, LOL.. .I doubt this will help them to make their GVA ops profitable.“

From what I know, the GVA branch of Swiss is close to the black zero. The all–CSeries base started in summer/fall and is about to fruit as LX now has enough metall to station 7–8 CS at GVA of a total of actally 15 (in the end 30 CS).

I hope the destinations and frequencies do work. As Edelweiss shows well, niche market pay well also.
It‘s about revenue. Free aircraft once a week and passengers paying you a good price. Do. Airlines also analyse.

Talking about niche markets, I always found it fascinating how well the Pristina flights are performing. Clearly big O&D market, but still...

True – Pristina is a good example for O&D / point to point traffic.
I find Swiss‘ situation at GVA a bit complex. On the one hand the smaller and bigger GVA (based cabin crew) routes (e.g. DME, LON,...) with a small CS fleet and on the other hand the Feeder flights for longhaul connection at ZRH.

With the Kosovar population in Switzerland it is obvouly no problem to make Pristina a profitable destination, all the better for them. Niche destinations like TLN, Pula etc operated during the Summer highseason only respond to a demand from TO's and are really marketed like Charter flights used to be. This may produce some extra cash but they probably won't be around again next year. I would really like to see Swiss to develop a comprehensive network at GVA with a bit of planning ahead which would serve the Western Swiss market correctly all year round and not just operate a skeleton schedule in winter and increase with some tourist destinations for a few months in summer. Unless of course, LX is right in saying that the market simply doesn't exist except to a few major cities such as LON/MOW/ZRH/LIS/BCN. And there again, the question will always remain if the GVA market has to stop at Lausanne and the ZRH market start there..

“The question will never always remain”... Sorry, but there is no question, it is quite clear and well documented.

Here attached an O&D market study for Switzerland and neighbouring regions. Bottom line, the O&D traffic is concentrated around the Geneva Lake region (28% of total Switzerland)and Zurich (27% of total Switzerland). Bern does a fair amount, Basel surprisingly little. Zurich has a fair amount of transfer, GVA not at all. That makes all the difference, especially when it comes to long-hauls.

So bottom line, Swiss like many legacy carriers (BA in Manchester, LH in Hamburg or Dusseldorf, etc.) cannot resist 1) LCC, and 2) large legacy carriers feeding their hub from GVA. Nothing to do with market potential, which you can see in the report is not negligeable, and other airlines like Easy Jet are more happy to grab.

https://www.bazl.admin.ch/dam/bazl/fr/d ... recast.pdf

I'm quite aware of those statistics and that OFAC study which probably caused more harm than good with it's interpretation by the Green Party and ARAG. Of course Swiss will always prefer it's own home base and in my wildest dreams I wouln't expect or even want GVA ever to try to reach ZRH's size. But if the O/D market is 28% of all Switzerland, the percentage of LX flights or LX seats offered from GVA is certainly far below this figure. I'm simply suggesting that there is somenthing wrong if the national airline cannot offer flights from GVA to FCO, CDG, CPH or even FRA. Of course they offer cosdeshare flights, but if I book LX, then I want to fly LX and not OS,LH or SK. And as long as there are no direct flights offered from GVA, people from Fribourg, Neuchâtel etc will always travel to ZRH by train first, rather than travelling to GVA by train and then catch first a feeder flight to ZRH, depite these areas being considered the natural market for GVA and not ZRH airport. So I merely meant to say that despite official studies, airlines can steer traffic the way it suits them. But enough complaining, happy new year to everybody in this forum and in particular the Swiss aviation contributors.

The big difference between GVA and ZRH is transfer traffic. From an O and D perspective ZRH is a fifth to a quarter larger. Fribourg and Neufchâtel are small markets, a tenth of the size of Vaud or Geneva and still GVA captures 70 pct of those markets on average. So to talk about significant leakage is just not true. The battleground is Bern where GVA holds a quarter of the market but given the size it is substantial. ZRH is closer anyway. To the west Lyon does not leak into GVA and vice versa. GVA holds tight the two Savoie with significant ski traffic but beyond that not much.

Swiss has decided to abandon GVA and GVA has never done better since then. Good riddance. Other have come in, and the market has responded well. Long haul is another issue: life is tough without feeder, see Hamburg, same size as GVA but much less long hauls. Despite being a very wealthy city.

Anybody know what is happening with Farnair Switzerland/ASL Switzerland? Airfleets.net has them down to just a single ATR 42 now from a fleet of 13, in just a single year.

On their website, Ethiopian has now published 3 weekly flights to GVA as from 05 JUN: ET 726/727 B-787-800 days 3/5/7 ADD/MXP/GVA vv.
Good to see this

"Ethiopian Airlines is launching Geneva in June. Schedules 0725-2045 via Milan Malpensa (ET726/7) with Boeing 787-8 every Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. Flights are open for bookings."

Source: https://twitter.com/followdpts/status/948538757279571968

Believe me now?

hynithuchi wrote:

With the Kosovar population in Switzerland it is obvouly no problem to make Pristina a profitable destination, all the better for them. Niche destinations like TLN, Pula etc operated during the Summer highseason only respond to a demand from TO's and are really marketed like Charter flights used to be. This may produce some extra cash but they probably won't be around again next year. I would really like to see Swiss to develop a comprehensive network at GVA with a bit of planning ahead which would serve the Western Swiss market correctly all year round and not just operate a skeleton schedule in winter and increase with some tourist destinations for a few months in summer. Unless of course, LX is right in saying that the market simply doesn't exist except to a few major cities such as LON/MOW/ZRH/LIS/BCN. And there again, the question will always remain if the GVA market has to stop at Lausanne and the ZRH market start there..

I really don't think TLN is pushed by TOs, it is focussed at serving the St Tropez area which isn't quite focussed around TOs.

PUY has replaced a frequency that used to operate Saturday evenings to BCN, I personally think it's a smart choice seeing how Croatia continues to gain in popularity.

KLX could very well be TO centred but operating the route on a Sunday morning at 6AM makes sense seeing the average type of traveller who goes to Kalamata.

LX have increased or retimed a number of other routes this coming summer (BIQ, AGP, NCE, ATH, PMI, SKG, VLC) and increased MAD to double daily outside the summer period during weekdays. This all coincides with the GVA base gaining an aircraft this summer and by LX's own statements in the media, GVA base being close to profitability.

Overall, I think for the first time since LX has their new base in GVA they finally have a coherent and well timed network.

pmartin wrote:

Swiss has decided to abandon GVA and GVA has never done better since then. Good riddance. Other have come in, and the market has responded well. Long haul is another issue: life is tough without feeder, see Hamburg, same size as GVA but much less long hauls. Despite being a very wealthy city.

Swiss never abandoned GVA, it was Swissair and that was almost 25 years ago... I don't quite understand those who are happy to see less competition in a market, LX is trying to fight back in GVA at a time when easyJet have loaded less flights out of GVA this coming summer.

MoonC wrote:

"Ethiopian Airlines is launching Geneva in June. Schedules 0725-2045 via Milan Malpensa (ET726/7) with Boeing 787-8 every Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. Flights are open for bookings."

Source: https://twitter.com/followdpts/status/948538757279571968

Believe me now?

Yes of course I believe you now and I'm delighted you're right. What's next ?

[twoid][/twoid]

MoonC wrote:

"Ethiopian Airlines is launching Geneva in June. Schedules 0725-2045 via Milan Malpensa (ET726/7) with Boeing 787-8 every Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. Flights are open for bookings."

Source: https://twitter.com/followdpts/status/948538757279571968

Believe me now?

Great news!

quite a busy day at ZRH with extremely strong winds, thunderstorm and many diverts mainly to MXP.

VSMUT wrote:

Anybody know what is happening with Farnair Switzerland/ASL Switzerland? Airfleets.net has them down to just a single ATR 42 now from a fleet of 13, in just a single year.

I think most of the other Aircraft have been moved around within the ASL group (ie all moved to EI- register). They're still operated by ASL CH AFAIK...

With the new A321LR entering the market, could there be a chance of more US East Coast routes to Switzerland ? I could easily see a US carrier operating to BSL where they could attract traffic from the ZRH area as well as the local pharma. GVA could also be interesting for BOS as the market is too small for widebody aircraft, but would suit lower capacity aircraft as the 321LR. I'm not sure if they could be competitive against LX on ZRH routes, but BSL and GVA could possibly work. The range of over 4000 nml for this aircraft should be no problem. Any thoughts ?

hynithuchi wrote:

With the new A321LR entering the market, could there be a chance of more US East Coast routes to Switzerland ? I could easily see a US carrier operating to BSL where they could attract traffic from the ZRH area as well as the local pharma. GVA could also be interesting for BOS as the market is too small for widebody aircraft, but would suit lower capacity aircraft as the 321LR. I'm not sure if they could be competitive against LX on ZRH routes, but BSL and GVA could possibly work. The range of over 4000 nml for this aircraft should be no problem. Any thoughts ?

I don't know about GVA, but as far as BSL is concerned, Pharma traffic would only really work for EWR (Novartis and Roche both have plants in New Jersey), as Swissair flew in the 90s with an A310. However, that would effectively mean it would have to be UA (only US major based there), but with their metal neutral joint venture with LX, I can't see either wanting to undermine the existing ZRH-EWR (and -JFK) flights.
Flights ex-JFK on AA or DL aren't as appealing for F/C class traffic given the drive from Queens to Jersey can take longer than driving BSL to ZRH. I can't see any of the other North East Coast hubs (IAD, PHL) having anywhere near enough O/D to make them worthwhile to BSL.

The 321LR is due to appear in BSL soon with Transat's YUL flights as their A310s go offline, which may prove it's viability in the market further down the line.

Does anybody know if passengers flying Ethiopian's AAD-MXP-GVA flight will have to debord the aircraft at MXP and rebord again after immigration, or not?

Question 2, will Ethiopian sell tickets for the GVA-MXP sector? When Kuwait Airways flew GVA-FRA-KWI, they did sell GVA-FRA tickets.
This flight could be great for mountain views. Though not as good as the ephemeral Etihad Regional's Sion-Lugano

sergegva wrote:

Does anybody know if passengers flying Ethiopian's AAD-MXP-GVA flight will have to debord the aircraft at MXP and rebord again after immigration, or not?

Question 2, will Ethiopian sell tickets for the GVA-MXP sector? When Kuwait Airways flew GVA-FRA-KWI, they did sell GVA-FRA tickets.
This flight could be great for mountain views. Though not as good as the ephemeral Etihad Regional's Sion-Lugano

The Kuwait flight was so good! Flying A340 for 120.- GVA-FRA round trip. I am really hoping they will have five freedom rights. It will be faster and cheaper than taking the Geneva-Milano train!

The plane stays one hour in Milan. Probably no deboarding. And no traffic rights neither.

sergegva wrote:

Does anybody know if passengers flying Ethiopian's AAD-MXP-GVA flight will have to debord the aircraft at MXP and rebord again after immigration, or not?

Question 2, will Ethiopian sell tickets for the GVA-MXP sector? When Kuwait Airways flew GVA-FRA-KWI, they did sell GVA-FRA tickets.
This flight could be great for mountain views. Though not as good as the ephemeral Etihad Regional's Sion-Lugano

Don't believe the ADD-GVA pax will have to deplane and board again, they should be able to stay aboard.

For GVA-MXP right now ET don't have 5th freedom, I don't believe they have made a request for it yet, that said they still have 5 months until the flight starts. They'd be the only ones on GVA-MXP too, so would make sense.

For KU, 5th freedom ticket sales had ended before KU stopped the GVA-KWI via FRA flights. KU still had the rights but decided to stop selling all 5th freedom routings due to the case they had with an Israeli man (refused to allow him on LHR-JFK due to Kuwait not recognising Israel as a nation, they subsequently got sued by him).

Some news regarding ZRH:

- Air Baltic will increase their frequencies to RIX from 7 weekly to 12 weekly
- Helvetic will add 2 weekly flights to Rostock (Germania served this route in the past) for Summer 2018
- SunExpress will fly 1x weekly each to Ankara and Gaziantep
- Onur Air will add 5x weekly flights to Antaly from 30 June 2018 using A321 aircraft
- Air Canada will use the 777-300ER on their flights to YYZ during peak months starting 1 June 2018. This will increase the number of seats on this route by 33% (vs 787-9)
- Swiss will increase frequencies on a number of destinations like Cork, Brindisi, Figari and probably some more

Furthermore, easyJet will start their flights to TXL tomorrow. Frequencies will gradually increase to 5 daily by 5 Feb 2018. Due to the short notice for building up the TXL base Bae 146 aircraft operated by WDL and A320s operated by SmartLynx will be used on this route for the first few months of operation.

Another development that will be interesting to follow is the acquisition of Niki by IAG/Vueling. According to press releases after the acquisition was announced, IAG also intends to strengthen their position in ZRH.
Hopefully they will add some serious competition on LHG monopoly routes out of ZRH (VIE, Southern Italy).

The Next 77W for LX, HB-JNI, is currently scheduled for it's ferry PAE-ZRH on 29JAN, arriving on 30JAN in ZRH.

Donald Trump just annonces he will be assisting the WEF in Davos. Is it possible that the VC-25s will visit ZRH? Or will they land in Ramstein and commute by helicopter like they did in Evian-Les-Bains for the G8?

SR380 wrote:

Donald Trump just annonces he will be assisting the WEF in Davos. Is it possible that the VC-25s will visit ZRH? Or will they land in Ramstein and commute by helicopter like they did in Evian-Les-Bains for the G8?

Air Force One landed at and took off from GVA when Bush was at Evian.

I don't see why Trump should land elsewhere than Zurich when the SecDef himself landed at ZRH in 2016 with a E-4B.
Plus as runway23 said, a VC-25 did land at GVA during Evian. There are photos online.

Seems like HB-IJB (A320) har left Swiss and being sent to St.Athan (DGX), so assume to be broken up?

Yes, it seems to be the case. I'm somewhat surprised by that, since I was assuming the 319's were to go first.
I know LX is holding on the 319's for longer, due to the demise of AB and the increased demand. Wasn't expecting 320's to leave the fleet already.
Are there more 320's to leave anytime soon?

Afaik the other A320 to leave LX is HB-IJF. Not sure though if that is still planned this year (after the AB insolvency). The 319 are planned to be phased out later.

Theoretically, AF1 could also land at Emmen Air Base.

More flights between BEG and ZRH.
JU goes from 14 to 17.
LX goes from 14 to 16.

There will be a total of 33 weekly flights which is quite impressive given that LX will increase INI from 2 to 3 weekly.

In other news, easyJet will be suspending GVA-BEG despite increasing it last year and instead it will launch BSL-BEG where it will compete directly with Wizz Air's three weekly flights.

That said, all of you in GVA will get some good news as JU will be launching two weekly flights from BEG.

------7 06.00-08.00 / 08.45-10.45
---4--- 18.00-20.05 / 20.50-22.45

Afaik the other A320 to leave LX is HB-IJF. Not sure though if that is still planned this year (after the AB insolvency). The 319 are planned to be phased out later.

When are the first NEO's scheduled to arrive?
I know about the 319's that they will soldier on for a while. HB-IJF is also logged, so she can go

JulietteBravo wrote:

Afaik the other A320 to leave LX is HB-IJF. Not sure though if that is still planned this year (after the AB insolvency). The 319 are planned to be phased out later.

Still planned!
HB-IJF will be out of service from 01.02.2018.

DALCE wrote:

Afaik the other A320 to leave LX is HB-IJF. Not sure though if that is still planned this year (after the AB insolvency). The 319 are planned to be phased out later.

When are the first NEO's scheduled to arrive?
I know about the 319's that they will soldier on for a while. HB-IJF is also logged, so she can go

First A320neo is scheduled for OCT-2019

Just heard on the Swiss radio that Belair (AirBerlin daughter and Swiss Sister of Niki – until 2002 known as Balair, subsideray of Swissair) will take off again. They found new investors SBC from Düsseldorf who want to reactivate Belair by summer 18. My best wishes to the employees and good luck and success!

(German) :

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/neues-leben-fuer-belair
https://www.presseportal.de/pm/129275/3840323

Is there a problem with one of Edelweis' longhaul aircraft...on Sunday the ZRH-CPT service have been delayed by almost a day, and operating with A333 (also last week with A333), while it's usually with A343. Today the service is operated with Swiss A343 (HB-JMH)

Yes, I believe both WK 340's were kaputt, and I have heard that one needs an engine swap. Don't know which one. Both LX & WK Long Haul schedules have been adjusted.
LX also operated ZRH-HKT-ZRH with HB-JMH on the 14th.

Are there plans to fold Edelweiss into EW in the future given that WK is basically a leisure destination carrier just like EW?

JulietteBravo wrote:

Just heard on the Swiss radio that Belair (AirBerlin daughter and Swiss Sister of Niki – until 2002 known as Balair, subsideray of Swissair) will take off again. They found new investors SBC from Düsseldorf who want to reactivate Belair by summer 18. My best wishes to the employees and good luck and success!

(German) :

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/neues-leben-fuer-belair
https://www.presseportal.de/pm/129275/3840323

Great news. This area of Europe definitely needs more airlines. I wonder what market they will go after. Will they try to capture a share of the holiday market or will they also try to get some local, point to point, passengers.

GianiDC wrote:

Are there plans to fold Edelweiss into EW in the future given that WK is basically a leisure destination carrier just like EW?

I doubt it unless LH Group wants to reposition their Swiss holiday carrier. Edelweiss is a well known and respected airline. Whilst charter/holiday Edelweiss has a very solid product (some aspects of which better than Swiss itself). Eurowings is on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Blerg wrote:

JulietteBravo wrote:

Just heard on the Swiss radio that Belair (AirBerlin daughter and Swiss Sister of Niki – until 2002 known as Balair, subsideray of Swissair) will take off again. They found new investors SBC from Düsseldorf who want to reactivate Belair by summer 18. My best wishes to the employees and good luck and success!

(German) :

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/neues-leben-fuer-belair
https://www.presseportal.de/pm/129275/3840323

Great news. This area of Europe definitely needs more airlines. I wonder what market they will go after. Will they try to capture a share of the holiday market or will they also try to get some local, point to point, passengers.

I doubt IMHO a little bit that this part of Europe really needs more Airlines. We have SWISS, other Lufthansa Group members (EW, LH, OS), Edelweiss, Helvetic Airways, Germania (CH), EasyJet (CH), Vueling, Transavia and all major legacy carriers in Europe operating at CH Airports. However – great Belair try a come back!

From what is written in the Aerotelegtaph–Article:

– the contract to buy Belair has been signed Monday Jan 15
– 4 A320 planned
– main business model is Wetlease and Charter
– they try ro go for the brand „Balair“ (Airline that operated 1957–2001)
– former employees are encouraged to apply for their old jobs

Cheers Juliet

Yes but Swiss and other LH Group airlines are one and the same. Their schedules and pricing are synchronized so we can hardly consider them as competing airlines. easyJet Switzerland is a legit competitor but others are relatively small players compared to the two. Would be nice if Wizz Air kept on adding more flights but they seem to be struggling in this particular market.

Does anyone know if Wizz Air could freely launch VIE-ZRH flights now that they have a base in Austria?

As far as I know they have a Hungarian AOC and the country being member of the EU, I don't see any obstacles operating VIE/ZRH. They seem however focusing on BSL which only about 60 km from ZRH and they can cover not only the Alsatian and German border market but also the larger ZRH area. So is there a need for them to fly VIE/ZRH where they would face fierce competition and wheer the only advantage over BSL would be for passengers to Zurich city ?

hynithuchi wrote:

As far as I know they have a Hungarian AOC and the country being member of the EU, I don't see any obstacles operating VIE/ZRH. They seem however focusing on BSL which only about 60 km from ZRH and they can cover not only the Alsatian and German border market but also the larger ZRH area. So is there a need for them to fly VIE/ZRH where they would face fierce competition and wheer the only advantage over BSL would be for passengers to Zurich city ?

Well, why not serve both? The market is probably there. By launching VIE-ZRH they would break LH Group's monopoly and could get access to a large number of higher yielding passengers who currently have no other option than to fly on Swiss or Austrian Airlines. That said, if they do decide to enter this market I think they will need to do it with at least two daily flights otherwise OS and LX will massacre them by dumping fares while offering more daily departures.
Wizz Air is entering the western European market. Eventually they will have to fight for these larger markets. I think VIE-FCO, LTN-ATH and LTN-LCA will be interesting cases to follow and they could show us how competitive Wizz Air truly is outside their comfort zone (eastern Europe).

As for Basel, they are not that big there, especially when compared to easyJet. W6 flies to five destinations all being in the Balkans: Belgrade, Nish, Tuzla, Skopje and Ohrid.

Blerg wrote:

hynithuchi wrote:

As far as I know they have a Hungarian AOC and the country being member of the EU, I don't see any obstacles operating VIE/ZRH. They seem however focusing on BSL which only about 60 km from ZRH and they can cover not only the Alsatian and German border market but also the larger ZRH area. So is there a need for them to fly VIE/ZRH where they would face fierce competition and wheer the only advantage over BSL would be for passengers to Zurich city ?

Well, why not serve both? The market is probably there. By launching VIE-ZRH they would break LH Group's monopoly and could get access to a large number of higher yielding passengers who currently have no other option than to fly on Swiss or Austrian Airlines. That said, if they do decide to enter this market I think they will need to do it with at leas
Wizz Air is entering the western European market. Eventually they will have to fight for these larger markets. I think VIE-FCO, LTN-ATH and LTN-LCA will be interesting cases to follow and they could show us how competitive Wizz Air truly is outside their comfort zone (eastern Europe).

As for Basel, they are not that big there, especially when compared to easyJet. W6 flies to five destinations all being in the Balkans: Belgrade, Nish, Tuzla, Skopje and Ohrid.

easyJet are opening BSL-VIE this summer already. W6 have 13 destinations ex-BSL, which is ibviously way less than DS with their based Aircraft, but I'd wager more than any single Airline outside the LH Group at ZRH...

Bhoy wrote:

Blerg wrote:

hynithuchi wrote:

As far as I know they have a Hungarian AOC and the country being member of the EU, I don't see any obstacles operating VIE/ZRH. They seem however focusing on BSL which only about 60 km from ZRH and they can cover not only the Alsatian and German border market but also the larger ZRH area. So is there a need for them to fly VIE/ZRH where they would face fierce competition and wheer the only advantage over BSL would be for passengers to Zurich city ?

Well, why not serve both? The market is probably there. By launching VIE-ZRH they would break LH Group's monopoly and could get access to a large number of higher yielding passengers who currently have no other option than to fly on Swiss or Austrian Airlines. That said, if they do decide to enter this market I think they will need to do it with at leas
Wizz Air is entering the western European market. Eventually they will have to fight for these larger markets. I think VIE-FCO, LTN-ATH and LTN-LCA will be interesting cases to follow and they could show us how competitive Wizz Air truly is outside their comfort zone (eastern Europe).

As for Basel, they are not that big there, especially when compared to easyJet. W6 flies to five destinations all being in the Balkans: Belgrade, Nish, Tuzla, Skopje and Ohrid.

easyJet are opening BSL-VIE this summer already. W6 have 13 destinations ex-BSL, which is ibviously way less than DS with their based Aircraft, but I'd wager more than any single Airline outside the LH Group at ZRH...

You are right as far as destinations out of BSL go. On their website Wizz has the EU and non-EU destinations separated for administrative/legal reasons.

I guess there shouldn‘t be any legal problem for Wizz to fly to ZRH.
Maybe one reason why they don‘t do yet is the relatively high airport fees at ZRH?

Skywork Airlines is adding a single Embraer 170 to support traffic out of Bern for this summer ! Link in German

https://www.travelnews.ch/flug/7673-sky ... r-170.html

Operations out of Lugano (To Bern, Geneva and Rome...) aren't confirmed yet. Skywork is searching an additionnal Saab 2000 to support this new traffic.

Why is LX skipping rows 18-24 on their 320s?