ncflyer wrote:

SgtBarone wrote:

I think we're only down one frequency from last winter...MDW was previously 5x daily and BNA was 2x daily.

I guess I'm glass half empty then. You say "only down one frequency", I say 20% drop in capacity to lowest levels to Chicago Midway the station has seen since it's been open, to the best of my recollection (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Furthermore PIT/CMH/ even CVG retain 5 flights to Midway. Maybe it's the case that UA controls too much of the Chicago market and has far more seats to CLE than they do other similar markets.

Don't forget AA's build up in the past few years from ERJ to CR9's, etc. And going west you now have mainline DL to SLC and MSP that are competitive transit time connections with MDW, but a lot less weather/delays.

I think it's also the net seats that matter on WN. In an earlier analysis someone had on the thread, WN has the same # of flights, but a good number more seats due to 738's etc. Or could be similar to UA where the WN connection is now via DEN vs. MDW.

Lots of factors, but one thing is for sure, WN doesn't have a lot of LUV for CLE year after year.

Per Knope2001 in another thread:

"Midway’s cuts are more than a few but not as broad as I thought they might be given how many have already been posted.
Here are Midway domestic markets operated in February 2018 where February 2019 has fewer weekday flights:

-1 Boston (2 left)
-1 Cleveland (4 left0
-1 Detroit (4 left)
-3 Flint (discontinued)
-1 Fort Myers (3 left)
-1 Louisville (2 left)
-1 Norfolk (1 left)
-1 Omaha (4 left)
-1 Portland PDX (1 left)"

He left out this summer's MDW-OKC, which was discontinued and other summer cuts. Jan and Feb are the weakest traffic months for most of those routes; combine that with winter weather snafus, and I think WN is willing to kiss off the business so as to deal with fewer empty planes and stranded pax. Q2 will see the frequencies come back.

CLEguy wrote:

Anyone get a shot of the AA 777-200? Please share!

Here are some: https://www.facebook.com/OPShots/photos ... =3&theater

^re Opshots--did they get rid of their forum? I hadn't been on that site for a while, but had liked it.

greenair727 wrote:

^re Opshots--did they get rid of their forum? I hadn't been on that site for a while, but had liked it.

Looks like it's still not working. I had reported it and they were supposed to add more memory, but that was over a week ago. Not sure what's going on there.

San Diego just opened a new FIS. This just makes me jealous and sad.

http://www.san.org/News/Article-Detail/ ... l-Airport-

Check out pics of the new facility: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sandiegoi ... alairport/

Makes me sad too but what would make me happy is if Cleveland leaders finally realize that a 50 year old facility that's been patched together with odd ball expansions through the decades isn't going to cut it, especially as compared to other forward thinking cities-- just like it'll be hard to patch together a fix for FIS that the airlines will pay for. For those of you who read the print edition of the PD there was been a steady stream of letters complaining about how terrible the airport is, be it more piling on about the international arrival experience, complaining about how far elderly people have to walk when using off airport parking (most of the elderly I know are too proud to use wheelchairs until they absolutely have to), and then the latest-- which seemed like a bit of hyperbole to me, someone said her friends from out of town don't visit her because the airport is so terrible. I'd believe that more if that letter were written about LGA or PHL.

ncflyer wrote:

SgtBarone wrote:

I think we're only down one frequency from last winter...MDW was previously 5x daily and BNA was 2x daily.

I guess I'm glass half empty then. You say "only down one frequency", I say 20% drop in capacity to lowest levels to Chicago Midway the station has seen since it's been open,

It will be interesting to see when MDW capacity is restored later in 2019. WN seems to be moving away from MDW and its chief east-west hub. CLE now has flights to DEN, STL, PHX, and MKE as alternatives for the connecting pax who previously might have used MDW. I think WN is trying to size the CLE-MDW schedule to O&D pax numbers.

UA, with its big increase in capacity to Chicago, is the one trying to herd everybody through ORD.

Yep, WN must not perform as well on the battle for Chicago O/D traffic in CLE as it does in some of CLE's peer cities in the Midwest, wouldn't know how else to explain it. I can never remember a time when PIT had more service to MDW than CLE, this is a first.

Six months through the year and still awaiting (hoping?) some of my favorite rumors on here come to fruition. Obviously service to continental Europe, which was predicted so publicly by Growth Association is the biggest one.

Then there were the rumors on here that UA was interested in reintroducing some mainline to SEA, LAS, I forget where else-- eventually contradicted by a different rumor on here that UA flies more to CLE than they would like to do otherwise, due to the maintenance base.

I can't count this one as a rumor but as wishful thinking-- the endless hope that WN would announce DAL/HOU/SAN/OAK/fill in the blank.

Frontier's route structure is so fluid I don't count anything I hear about them.

SLC reintroduction is one nice rumor that came through let us hope with more staying power this time.

ncflyer wrote:

Then there were the rumors on here that UA was interested in reintroducing some mainline to SEA, LAS, I forget where else--

The source of that rumor was somebody who follows UA closely and had often been right in the past. I suspect his rumor reflected real UA deliberations that ultimately ended up going the other way. My feeling before the hub closure was that CLE probably diverted more traffic from DL at DTW than from UA at ORD.

The introduction of service to SLC has already helped give me another very convenient connecting option for west coast business travel, especially for the return leg. Will be connecting through SLC on separate trips later this year on the way home from BUR and LGB.

SgtBarone wrote:

The introduction of service to SLC has already helped give me another very convenient connecting option for west coast business travel, especially for the return leg. Will be connecting through SLC on separate trips later this year on the way home from BUR and LGB.

It is also nice to arrive approx. 1.5 hrs earlier than the 11:30 ORD/IAH/MSP banks!

Iceland numbers for May.

Wow
Arrivals: 2268 LF=60.6%
Departures: 2903 LF=82.5%

FI
Arrivals: 696 LF=43.5%
Departures: 1460 LF=91.3%

Load factors based on:

Wow. First arrival 5/3; first departure 5/4--so 17 arrivals/16 departures. If all were A321, that's 3740 seats arriving/3520 seats departing.

FI. First arrival 5/16; first departure 5/16--so 10 arrivals/10 departures. If all were A7M8, that's 1600 seats arriving/1600 seats departing.

greenair727 wrote:

Iceland numbers for May.

Wow
Arrivals: 2268 LF=60.6%
Departures: 2903 LF=82.5%

FI
Arrivals: 696 LF=43.5%
Departures: 1460 LF=91.3%

Load factors based on:

Wow. First arrival 5/3; first departure 5/4--so 17 arrivals/16 departures. If all were A321, that's 3740 seats arriving/3520 seats departing.

FI. First arrival 5/16; first departure 5/16--so 10 arrivals/10 departures. If all were A7M8, that's 1600 seats arriving/1600 seats departing.

Where did you find these? Can I get other airports from it?

^I got them from a friend who works for UA who got them from the city of cleveland. it doesn't show other cities.

Wow
Arrivals: 2268 LF=60.6%
Departures: 2903 LF=82.5%

FI
Arrivals: 696 LF=43.5%
Departures: 1460 LF=91.3%

Assuming that departures will be relatively equal to arrivals after the first partial month of May, 83% and 91% load factors for a new route are really good! I hope both WW and FI stay in the market, which demonstrates the strength of Cleveland for the 3rd TATL carrier.

Better than 7000 to/from KEF in May is great news. That's about what CO used to do to London in May. So I'd say there is easily room for a third carrier at least at peak times of year.

^and remember, FI's numbers aren't for all of May---service only began on 16 May.

SgtBarone wrote:

The introduction of service to SLC has already helped give me another very convenient connecting option for west coast business travel, especially for the return leg. Will be connecting through SLC on separate trips later this year on the way home from BUR and LGB.

Are the SLC flights full? (I'd expect them to be....)

May traffic figures are posted. Overall traffic is up a healthy 8.71% year over year with international traffic finally up over 2017, albeit only by 1.38%. This should grow even more in the coming months with the Icelandic airlines and the wide body charter subs.

http://www.clevelandairport.com/about-us/facts-figures

^International for May over May, though, is up 41% (and thats with only a half month of FI), with departing-only int'l pax up 53% MoM.

International numbers are so sketchy. Iceland carriers will hopefully reduce the practice but often it’s very advantageous to buy two separate tickets— one to get to the east coast and one to get to Europe. I automatically check Boston when I fly to Europe. JetBlue keeps fares low to get there and Boston seems to have such high competition to points beyond.

^True---lots of separate bookings going, lots people driving to Detroit, etc. But for those that ARE flying out of CLE, these numbers can be used to present the change year over year or month over month.

CLE kicked off Delta's service to SLC with donuts and coffee this morning. So far, they have been using Gate A9 for arrival and departure.

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... 1725830144

Cargo growth in the May report is good also - May18 is up 9.8% over May 17. Year to date comps aren't as good, but May has been stellar.

SgtBarone wrote:

CLE kicked off Delta's service to SLC with donuts and coffee this morning. So far, they have been using Gate A9 for arrival and departure.

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... 1725830144

DL moving to A is what I've been hoping for - the implication being that WN wants more B gates. Recently, though, expectations need to be tempered by the fact that Jet-A has nearly doubled in price in the last twelve months. That is bound to put a crimp in expansion that is not very much demand-driven. All those 50-seaters AA and UA called out of the desert are becoming millstones again.

masseybrown wrote:

SgtBarone wrote:

CLE kicked off Delta's service to SLC with donuts and coffee this morning. So far, they have been using Gate A9 for arrival and departure.

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... 1725830144

DL moving to A is what I've been hoping for - the implication being that WN wants more B gates. Recently, though, expectations need to be tempered by the fact that Jet-A has nearly doubled in price in the last twelve months. That is bound to put a crimp in expansion that is not very much demand-driven. All those 50-seaters AA and UA called out of the desert are becoming millstones again.

My guess is that Delta will stay in B for now and will use A on an as-needed basis. Southwest leases 5 or 6 gates in B, but only use B10 and B11 regularly throughout the day, with the remaining gates used for the early morning departures/RON. Plenty of room for expansion.

SgtBarone wrote:

Plenty of room for expansion.

Not the expansion I have in mind.

SgtBarone wrote:

CLE kicked off Delta's service to SLC with donuts and coffee this morning. So far, they have been using Gate A9 for arrival and departure.

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... 1725830144

Ah--I had thought this route started already.....so pls disregard my question earlier about loads!

SgtBarone wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

SgtBarone wrote:

CLE kicked off Delta's service to SLC with donuts and coffee this morning. So far, they have been using Gate A9 for arrival and departure.

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... 1725830144

DL moving to A is what I've been hoping for - the implication being that WN wants more B gates. Recently, though, expectations need to be tempered by the fact that Jet-A has nearly doubled in price in the last twelve months. That is bound to put a crimp in expansion that is not very much demand-driven. All those 50-seaters AA and UA called out of the desert are becoming millstones again.

My guess is that Delta will stay in B for now and will use A on an as-needed basis. Southwest leases 5 or 6 gates in B, but only use B10 and B11 regularly throughout the day, with the remaining gates used for the early morning departures/RON. Plenty of room for expansion.

I believe this is correct. WN leases B7, B8, B9, B10, B11, and uses B3 (a former DL gate) as needed. A9 is a common use gate. I've seen DL charters parked there before, but it does look like the daily SLC rotation is using it regularly. Wonder why DL gave up B3 in the first place-I would guess it must be cheaper to pay the as-needed fee than to hold the lease.

It is great that so many show interest in Cle. However we are in a sad state of affairs when the excitement of the day is seeing a different gate being used occasionally by an airline.

What is the situation with the drain tile project in the middle of the field? Seems to be going at a snails pace along with temp closing of runway that recent major exposes were made to have safety runoffs put at each end. How many have had the experience of sending a major lists and explanations of some suggested improvements that have low/ no expenses. Director Kennedy does not even respond. As an example several airports (most recently GSP ) have put airlock doors at the passenger exits of the secured part of the terminal. Passengers can exit but not enter. This eliminates the need for TSA and airport police to be at the exit points. In Cleveland this would be 6 persons eliminated at all times the terminal is open. Passengers also do not have to walk extra distance in the evening when the airport wants to save money. When we interviewed the GSP airport director, they calculated that the doors pay for them selves in under 2 years. In Cleveland the return would be even quicker due to the number of persons presently employed at the exits. How can we expect airlines to be excited about Cleveland expansion/service when passenger services and expenses fall on deaf ears. We cannot even get the city to paint or put some plexiglass in the major TSA precheck area so that it does not look like a dismal bus terminal. We sent pictures of what was done in San Diego's new terminal that takes a small area for the line up area but looks nice with minimal expense. No response.

The airport is being run by a pro now.

It’s been mismanaged and under prioritized by civic leaders for two generations or even more. I put a lot of blame on the business community. The growth association ran a totally fruitless “save the hub” campaign as UA merged. That money would have been better spent building public support for a terminal that is on par with peer cities.

You might not be so sure if you speak to airline managers from the 11 Cleveland carriers

ncflyer wrote:

The airport is being run by a pro now.

From the stories I'm hearing about the FIS situation and the fact that we'll have 7,000-10,000 people a month going through there leads me to strongly disagree.

greenair727 wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

The airport is being run by a pro now.

From the stories I'm hearing about the FIS situation and the fact that we'll have 7,000-10,000 people a month going through there leads me to strongly disagree.

Let's not put the current FIS disaster at the feet of Kennedy. The facility was ignored when Mok and Smith were running the place and CO/UA had direct service to LON and CDG.

I think the lack of vision comes from the provincial mentality City Hall has as well regarding all things Cleveland.

No way will UA/AA/DL/etc agree to take on more debt at Hopkins to help Iceland air carriers, which is a big reason why I think FIS improvement needs to be part of a much bigger airport renovation, not a one off project. . . . from what I can tell in the press and letters to the PD, the airlines baggage service is teh biggest problem.

Looks like CLE-BOS on United is back up to 3x daily through next year. Nice to see the third frequency return.

izbtmnhd wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

The airport is being run by a pro now.

From the stories I'm hearing about the FIS situation and the fact that we'll have 7,000-10,000 people a month going through there leads me to strongly disagree.

Let's not put the current FIS disaster at the feet of Kennedy. The facility was ignored when Mok and Smith were running the place and CO/UA had direct service to LON and CDG.

I think the lack of vision comes from the provincial mentality City Hall has as well regarding all things Cleveland.

izbtmnhd--I agree with everything you said except, "Let's not put the current FIS disaster at the feet of Kennedy." Yes, City Hall is incompetent when it comes to understanding the airports and has been so through Mok and Ricky Smith as well. But its the job of Kennedy---or any airport leader in Cleveland--to convince his bosses at City Hall of why something that is important is important---and thus developing ways to implement important changes, a part of which, is educating and convincing City Hall of why it must be done. So Kennedy, while far more competent that Ricky Smith, is still failing in this regard. Remember the alleged episode where he cleaned off his desk and left and quit? It was likely out of frustration trying to do the right thing but being blocked by Jackson and his inner staff. They probably convinced him to stay somehow--esp. as it was right before election day. I'm not saying Kennedy has an easy job---the toughest part about it is likely dealing with City Hall. But it is his job to LEAD the airports and do the right thing--so he must find a way to educate Jackson & company--otherwise, he is failing in his role.

Trk1 wrote:

As an example several airports (most recently GSP ) have put airlock doors at the passenger exits of the secured part of the terminal. Passengers can exit but not enter. This eliminates the need for TSA and airport police to be at the exit points. In Cleveland this would be 6 persons eliminated at all times the terminal is open.

I bet City Hall has issued a "no layoffs" order to the airport, so there goes the incentive. It's short-sighted on City Hall's part, but that's politics.

Greenair airport directors come and go and always will, especially in this town with it being a difficult job and a highly politicized one (no guarantee that Kennedy would even keep his job once Jackson's term ends. . . . ). In my mind the pressure has to come from the business community, and this is where there has been decades not only of failure but misdirected efforts, i.e. "United for the hub". Jackson's voters and the users of airport unfortunately are different sets of people. It's no mystery why the airport has never been an issue on Jackson's agenda, in all his years of Mayor, it just doesn't matter to his voters. To me it is literally impossible for any airport director to overcome the politics without outside pressure, nor do I think an airport director can openly lobby for outside support.

However the business community has much to contribute to a politician's success, even if they aren't voters. Plus the business community has far more continuity. It's not OK that renovating 25 year old Quicken loans arena moves to the top of the pile of priorities (because a business person pushed it), but the 50+ year old airport sits. But here we are. . . .

^"nor do I think an airport director can openly lobby for outside support."

Not publicly, but he SHOULD be meeting with the business community regularly---and in doing so get their support for his needs.In my earlier post I said he should convince the mayor--this is part of that.

No doubt about it Greenair, but how do you think the Mayor would react when (not if. . .. ) he finds out one of his lieutenants was meeting with business leaders in order to push an agenda different than the Mayor's priorities for the city voters? From what I can tell, Kennedy is taking a good approach. Be cautious about costs, reduce debt, raise some fees (he's taking a lot of bullets for that), and let the master facility plan which he's commissioning speak to the suitability of the current facility as relates to FIS, or uses for D, or whatever else.

greenair727 wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

The airport is being run by a pro now.

From the stories I'm hearing about the FIS situation and the fact that we'll have 7,000-10,000 people a month going through there leads me to strongly disagree.

Run by a pro?! Professional what, exactly? He may be an improvement over past directors, but it’s more accurate to say he’s “relatively less incompetent” than a pro. The number of boneheaded decisions made at Hopkins remains stratospheric.

CLEguy wrote:

SgtBarone wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

DL moving to A is what I've been hoping for - the implication being that WN wants more B gates. Recently, though, expectations need to be tempered by the fact that Jet-A has nearly doubled in price in the last twelve months. That is bound to put a crimp in expansion that is not very much demand-driven. All those 50-seaters AA and UA called out of the desert are becoming millstones again.

My guess is that Delta will stay in B for now and will use A on an as-needed basis. Southwest leases 5 or 6 gates in B, but only use B10 and B11 regularly throughout the day, with the remaining gates used for the early morning departures/RON. Plenty of room for expansion.

I believe this is correct. WN leases B7, B8, B9, B10, B11, and uses B3 (a former DL gate) as needed. A9 is a common use gate. I've seen DL charters parked there before, but it does look like the daily SLC rotation is using it regularly. Wonder why DL gave up B3 in the first place-I would guess it must be cheaper to pay the as-needed fee than to hold the lease.

Because B3 has the most hunk of absolute garbage jetway in the country and CLE, with its professional leadership, refuses to fix it, apparently. Also, DL’s been using A9 for at least 8 months now; it’s nothing new.

^ I thought the airlines owned the jetways, except at the common use gates, and were responsible for their maintenance. No?

ncflyer wrote:

No doubt about it Greenair, but how do you think the Mayor would react when (not if. . .. ) he finds out one of his lieutenants was meeting with business leaders in order to push an agenda different than the Mayor's priorities for the city voters? From what I can tell, Kennedy is taking a good approach. Be cautious about costs, reduce debt, raise some fees (he's taking a lot of bullets for that), and let the master facility plan which he's commissioning speak to the suitability of the current facility as relates to FIS, or uses for D, or whatever else.

Businesses know Kennedy can't speak outside the official script. So they won't make him. But they can read between the lines and develop their own opinions if Kennedy just states the facts to them of how things are in CLE vs the rest of the country and that CLE is losing ground as a result. The master plan is not a realistic mechanism: the plan won't be complete for five or so years and then any building that would happen would only begin then. Plus airports have to do master plans anyway. Look at the last one CLE did---hotels, office bldgs., etc. None of that ever materialized.....

For reference, here's the last master plan. http://www.clevelandairport.com/sites/d ... lan-PP.pdf Strangely, no date on the document. Says "draft" in some places, yet it currently presented as the last official plan on the city's website. http://www.clevelandairport.com/about-us/development . I couldn't find the actual plan online, just the powerpoint summary.

In addition to calling for the hotel/office bldg between the terminal and the parking garage and the expansion of the garage,

Some findings:
§ "Customs facility accommodates one flight at a time, is inefficient and poorly located" (p. 7)

Immediate-Term Needs:
§ "Outbound baggage, baggage screening, FIS/CBP, Checkpoints, Ticketing, Parking" (p. 7)

All the shade being thrown at City Hall for the condition of the airport might be a good reason for the business community and media to push for a separate regional authority to oversee the airport, perhaps including BKL and CAK, so the City admin can concentrate on constituent gripes, but it won't happen...

masseybrown wrote:

^ I thought the airlines owned the jetways, except at the common use gates, and were responsible for their maintenance. No?

B3 *is* common use, but no, I don’t think so? Cleveland took gates off D and put them on C for jetblue and AA; I don’t think those airlines bought them, but I could be wrong.

joeman wrote:

All the shade being thrown at City Hall for the condition of the airport might be a good reason for the business community and media to push for a separate regional authority to oversee the airport, perhaps including BKL and CAK, so the City admin can concentrate on constituent gripes, but it won't happen...

In the larger picture, I would not advocate for this. The City has lost so many assets to regional entities over the years that it has lost part of its power---and thus can be pushed around by the suburbs weakening it even further. And the interests and priorities of the wealthier and mostly-white suburbs is far different than those of the city. It would address issues like Akron trying to weaken Cleveland (and unwittingly, itself), but, to me, a regional airport authority is not the way to go. Instead, the solution is better leadership at City Hall that really understands what an airport is. I agree, Kennedy can only do so much and is likely always fighting an uphill battle. However, some things are worth fighting for--like the FIS--while others may be too insurmountable.