masseybrown wrote:

If you think the airport FIS is bad, things could get worse. Mrs Brown and I are taking a St. Lawrence Seaway cruise that clears US customs in Cleveland. I believe the "facility" is an Army surplus tent near Dock 28. I'll let you know how *that* goes.

That sounds cool---on both fronts--the Seaway cruise and clearing customs at the Port of Cleveland. Please do report how the clearance process goes!

masseybrown wrote:

Airline conference Jumpstart will be held in Cleveland for three days next week. Thirty airlines are known to be attending. Why? Said the head of the Airports Council International, "That's one reason we picked Cleveland, because they've done a great job of recovery. My other answer is 'Why not?' It's a great city and it's easy to get to."

Airport folks are meeting with 7 airlines that already fly to CLE, plus Alaska and Lufthansa.

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index. ... x_default_#incart_target2box_targeted_

That's great that this is in CLE this year. I hope they weather's good as its a very different vibe in the city when skies are blue vs. when its raining....

A very rare plane, a Boeing B-29 was in Cleveland yesterday at BKL: https://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.s ... 9_bom.html

CLE's FIS may get a little busy this evening. There are 2 Eastern Airlines LLC/Swift 767's enroute ( 1 - 762 from PUJ/Punta Cana and 1 -763 from MBJ/Montego Bay) in addition to Icelandair 837 (738 MAX) from Reykjavik all showing to arrive between 6:00 pm - 7:15 pm this evening

From eniria's weekly list:

WN CLE-MKE OCT 0>1.7 DEC 1.9>1.4
WN LAS-CLE NOV 1.4>1.0 DEC 1.4>1.0

Was WN's new CLE-MKE service supposed to start in Nov, but is now starting in Oct? Also, is the WN schedule people were waiting for see adds for CLE?

greenair727 wrote:

From eniria's weekly list:

WN CLE-MKE OCT 0>1.7 DEC 1.9>1.4
WN LAS-CLE NOV 1.4>1.0 DEC 1.4>1.0

Was WN's new CLE-MKE service supposed to start in Nov, but is now starting in Oct? Also, is the WN schedule people were waiting for see adds for CLE?

eniria's weekly list was comparing October 2017 to October 2018, November 2017 to November 2018, and December 2017 to December 2018, and WN CLE-MKE nonstop route is also a year-round nonstop route.

csizmpl wrote:

CLE's FIS may get a little busy this evening. There are 2 Eastern Airlines LLC/Swift 767's enroute ( 1 - 762 from PUJ/Punta Cana and 1 -763 from MBJ/Montego Bay) in addition to Icelandair 837 (738 MAX) from Reykjavik all showing to arrive between 6:00 pm - 7:15 pm this evening

How many counters does CLE FIS have? Any idea how long it took to process all pax from all three of these flights?

greenair727 wrote:

A very rare plane, a Boeing B-29 was in Cleveland yesterday at BKL: https://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.s ... 9_bom.html

It was a privilege to tour "Doc" and a thrill to hear the fly-by of a B-25 and P-51 Mustang in formation.

On WN, I'm sure everyone noticed that another WN extension and another big nothing burger for CLE, in spite of all the wishful thinking on this board that WN would add HOU, DAL, SAN, OAK, and heck even a recent DCA. PIT meantime got a second flight to BNA (I'm surprised they had been lagging here) and they also got a 4th flight to BWI.

I am a little stumped that WN added a fifth gate in CLE a few years back. I guess I need to add up the RON/early AM departures but it's sure not your typical WN gate utilization.

Admittedly small sample size, but Southwest CLE-MKE loads have been better in both directions on my most recent trips on it versus when it started. Fingers crossed that this route sticks around for good, I would have to have to go back to using MDW or fly AA or UA to Ohare.

greenair727 wrote:

csizmpl wrote:

CLE's FIS may get a little busy this evening. There are 2 Eastern Airlines LLC/Swift 767's enroute ( 1 - 762 from PUJ/Punta Cana and 1 -763 from MBJ/Montego Bay) in addition to Icelandair 837 (738 MAX) from Reykjavik all showing to arrive between 6:00 pm - 7:15 pm this evening

How many counters does CLE FIS have?

I just arrived from KEF this evening. There were 2 Global Entry kiosks, and three open counters screening our 1 Icelandair flight. There looked to be a total of 6-7 counters. I had to wait for about 2 minutes for a Global Entry kiosk, but once I got my receipt, the CBP agent called me over and stamped my receipt and I was off to wait for my luggage. From the time the door opened to re-clearing TSA security to enter A to head to baggage claim took about 25 minutes. The real pain in the a** was waiting for the checked luggage in baggage claim. That took another 20 minutes or so. And the flight went off the displays about 45 minutes past our arrival. If you didn't know where to pick up your luggage, you might have been easily confused. I really wish they would bring back the bus system!

What was the LF on your flight? Thanks

You guys might have already discussed this before, but good on CLE for hosting this air service development event:
http://www.anna.aero/2018/05/24/kevin-b ... eo-aci-na/

LifetimeGS wrote:

What was the LF on your flight? Thanks

I would guess 75% or so. Seat map at checkin looked fuller than the actual flight.

Looks like CLE is meeting with: American, Delta, United, Southwest, Frontier, Spirit, JetBlue, Alaska Airlines, and Lufthansa.

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index. ... to_cl.html

So anyone think CLE has a shot at LH to FRA or the coveted year-round to SEA on AS next week?

Groyd wrote:

So anyone think CLE has a shot at LH to FRA or the coveted year-round to SEA on AS next week?

LH no. The amounts of incentives I have heard they want from mid sized markets are crazy. If CLE gets something to FRA it would be Condor.

Jshank83 wrote:

Groyd wrote:

So anyone think CLE has a shot at LH to FRA or the coveted year-round to SEA on AS next week?

LH no. The amounts of incentives I have heard they want from mid sized markets are crazy. If CLE gets something to FRA it would be Condor.

While I don't think LH is likely, CLE is a bit of a unique case considering they have stronger Star Alliance ties than most mid sized markets..

No LH when UA had a hub, I don’t see why there’d be LH now…

Frankly I don’t see the US 3 with unserved routes either, let alone LH. We are in unfortunate position of having a UA focus, as UA seems far less interested in nonhub routes than Delta especially. I’m frankly surprised LGA UA has held on so long with stiff DL competition and less stiff AA presence.

^the only thing that's different now is that the city may be in a better economic shape. But I agree, I don't expect anything to come of the LH talks and it may just be a courtesy of LH to meet with the host city if the host city is requesting such. LH would expect support from UA and UA isn't interested in CLE and would see any CLE-FRA operation as cannibalizing its ORD/EWR-FRA flights, when in reality UA/LH could be gaining market share from the CLE-FRA market that is currently preferring to fly on DL/AA/FI/WW over UA, as if a connection is required anyway, no reason to stay on UA.

Groyd wrote:

So anyone think CLE has a shot at....coveted year-round to SEA on AS next week?

I think a new station for an airline is more feasible if more than one market is served from that new station. For example, when B6 entered CLE, they started BOS and FLL. So, for AS, I'd love to see the simultaneous start of SEA and SAN.

Didn't LH want CLE back in the Michael White days for cargo, not passengers? That might still be the goal.

[quote][Didn't LH want CLE back in the Michael White days for cargo, not passengers? That might still be the goal.
/quote]

Yes! Beat me to it. I believe they were presented with an insanely incompetent proposal by Lavonne Sheffield-McClain, and walked out of the meeting in disgust, according to either Scene or the Free Times.

CLE-SAN appears to be back on F9

Midwestindy wrote:

CLE-SAN appears to be back on F9

SAN DIEGO (SAN) to/from CLEVELAND (CLE)
F9 1615 Depart SAN: 10:17 a.m. Arrive CLE: 5:53 p.m.
F9 1669 Depart CLE: 10:10 a.m. Arrive SAN: 11:52 a.m.
Aircraft: Airbus A321
Frequency: Wednesday, Saturday
Service Start: August, 15

Part of F9's multi-city announcement just now!

And with a 321 3x weekly! Nice.

bb

But, F9 dropping SEA! Not sure why SEA does so bad out of CLE ! Thought there was a decent amount of traffic between them ! Maybe it’s time for someone with a hub there .

Robert1010 wrote:

But, F9 dropping SEA! Not sure why SEA does so bad out of CLE ! Thought there was a decent amount of traffic between them ! Maybe it’s time for someone with a hub there .

DL could be waiting to see how SLC does and maybe take some of the data from that and use it to analyze a potential SEA route.

Robert1010 wrote:

But, F9 dropping SEA! Not sure why SEA does so bad out of CLE ! Thought there was a decent amount of traffic between them ! Maybe it’s time for someone with a hub there .

https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index. ... cleve.html

According to the article, SEA is just ending earlier than expected and will resume after Easter. PHX is going from year-round to seasonal, ending in August and resuming in mid-November.

Also, it looks like RDU and MSP are going year-round. Both have been loaded through November.

As part of my A.net-wide rant about F9, I'm confused about CLE-SAN. It was operated last year -- as seasonal or year-round, who knows? -- and it ended in October. Of course there was no word about the status of the service at that time: suspended, seasonal, or cancelled. Nice.

So now we see today that F9 is announcing a "new route between SAN and CLE" starting this August. Let me make sure I have this right: last year F9 ended CLE-SAN on October 4; this year, F9 starts CLE-SAN on August 15. (Oh, and is it seasonal. or year-round in 2018? ???)

I think the route deserves a nonstop but of course business travelers are not going to be flocking to this service. It will be interesting to see how long it sticks around this time.

bb

Quote from user moops380 over on FlyerTalk about Icelandair's partnership with Airspace Lounge:

"...FI now has a contract with airspace lounge now where all food/drink is included (if on the FI flight and have access via the flight). One guest if in business, or one if you are saga gold (?). First night this applied was last Weds 5/30, also they said they will stay open later if there is a delay on that flight."

spreidel wrote:

[Didn't LH want CLE back in the Michael White days for cargo, not passengers? That might still be the goal.

Yes! Beat me to it. I believe they were presented with an insanely incompetent proposal by Lavonne Sheffield-McClain, and walked out of the meeting in disgust, according to either Scene or the Free Times.

Unfortunately that's such a recurring theme in the city of Cleveland.

La Boutique just opened in Concourse C in the old Fresh Brewed Tees space:

https://twitter.com/GoingPlacesCLE/stat ... 9904434178

Jshank83 wrote:

Groyd wrote:

So anyone think CLE has a shot at LH to FRA or the coveted year-round to SEA on AS next week?

LH no. The amounts of incentives I have heard they want from mid sized markets are crazy. If CLE gets something to FRA it would be Condor.

Condor is now part of the Thomas Cook Group so I do not know how much cargo plays in to their business model. Before UA de-hubbed CLE, the hurdle to a FRA flight was the availability of the right sized aircraft (or the willingness to free up an aircraft). At the time I believe there was at least two semi trucks a day making the trip to EWR a day for onward trips to Europe, and that alone can nearly cover cost of the flight.

Fast forward to 2018 and it is a very different industry.

SANFan wrote:

As part of my A.net-wide rant about F9, I'm confused about CLE-SAN. It was operated last year -- as seasonal or year-round, who knows? -- and it ended in October. Of course there was no word about the status of the service at that time: suspended, seasonal, or cancelled. Nice.

So now we see today that F9 is announcing a "new route between SAN and CLE" starting this August. Let me make sure I have this right: last year F9 ended CLE-SAN on October 4; this year, F9 starts CLE-SAN on August 15. (Oh, and is it seasonal. or year-round in 2018? ???)

I think the route deserves a nonstop but of course business travelers are not going to be flocking to this service. It will be interesting to see how long it sticks around this time.

bb

Most (read: all) of the route speculation in this thread is hogwash, but I could see Alaska doing CLE-SEA/SAN. I think it’s a route that could do well for a real, stable airline.

N766UA wrote:

SANFan wrote:

As part of my A.net-wide rant about F9, I'm confused about CLE-SAN. It was operated last year -- as seasonal or year-round, who knows? -- and it ended in October. Of course there was no word about the status of the service at that time: suspended, seasonal, or cancelled. Nice.

So now we see today that F9 is announcing a "new route between SAN and CLE" starting this August. Let me make sure I have this right: last year F9 ended CLE-SAN on October 4; this year, F9 starts CLE-SAN on August 15. (Oh, and is it seasonal. or year-round in 2018? ???)

I think the route deserves a nonstop but of course business travelers are not going to be flocking to this service. It will be interesting to see how long it sticks around this time.

bb

Most (read: all) of the route speculation in this thread is hogwash, but I could see Alaska doing CLE-SEA/SAN. I think it’s a route that could do well for a real, stable airline.

The other bonus to the Alaska comment above is that it will push out the LCC/ULCC's from the market who provide very unreliable service on odd days and times for a stable airline like you state. Same for WN. Hope CLE does well. Anxiously awaiting some news.

In the meantime, UA continues to match FI fares TATL. Booked flights into LHR return CDG for $602 each full standard coach fare. Unheard of fares. Long term, the full service TATL carriers have to be in trouble with these guys gobbling up pax. Another group of 20 took FI to Dub for just under $600 in JULY.

Let us hope that NE Ohioans reward icelandair rather than choosing instead to get overrated UA mileage plus miles.

I’m finding that fares to London And Paris are a great bargain. Other European cities served by icelandair not as much. Who knows could be my dates.

fun2fly wrote:

The other bonus to the Alaska comment above is that it will push out the LCC/ULCC's from the market who provide very unreliable service on odd days and times for a stable airline like you state. Same for WN. Hope CLE does well. Anxiously awaiting some news.

In the meantime, UA continues to match FI fares TATL. Booked flights into LHR return CDG for $602 each full standard coach fare. Unheard of fares. Long term, the full service TATL carriers have to be in trouble with these guys gobbling up pax. Another group of 20 took FI to Dub for just under $600 in JULY.

UA just doesn't get it. DL or AA can compete by matching the fare. But for UA, it doesn't work as there's too much bad blood after their big #$%&! you to Cleveland. Why take UA to Europe for the same price as FI if it still requires a stop somewhere? The only way UA service would be competitive would be at the same price as FI (or even a tiny bit higher) but NON-STOP to the European mainland.

greenair727 wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

The other bonus to the Alaska comment above is that it will push out the LCC/ULCC's from the market who provide very unreliable service on odd days and times for a stable airline like you state. Same for WN. Hope CLE does well. Anxiously awaiting some news.

In the meantime, UA continues to match FI fares TATL. Booked flights into LHR return CDG for $602 each full standard coach fare. Unheard of fares. Long term, the full service TATL carriers have to be in trouble with these guys gobbling up pax. Another group of 20 took FI to Dub for just under $600 in JULY.

UA just doesn't get it. DL or AA can compete by matching the fare. But for UA, it doesn't work as there's too much bad blood after their big #$%&! you to Cleveland. Why take UA to Europe for the same price as FI if it still requires a stop somewhere? The only way UA service would be competitive would be at the same price as FI (or even a tiny bit higher) but NON-STOP to the European mainland.

I agree wholeheartedly. I fly UA for three reasons: 1) I'm a million miler and my wife is lifetime gold due to that which provides a good shot at an upgrade and 2) my entire family can get to E+ for free and 3) bags for free which saves big $. On this trip, DL was $100 per pax more+ E+ fees so that did not make sense. So, for the most part, they have me which is exactly the plan of a FF program. It is noted that my DL flying is a measurable amount of the total since the hub closure, but it will be another decade before I'm a million miler with them. I'm sure there are a good # of other FF's in the same boat (err plane).

On the air cargo front, yes a few trucks a day go to EWR. As well to ORD. Both gateways generally add two days to air cargo transit times due to trucking and scanning prior to loading. Many wise shippers have found Rickenbacker to be a good alternative. You can get the cargo there and be on a plane same day. If CLE had one flight to add cargo to, it would do very well just offering the same fares at NYC/CHI gateways as it would save 1-2 days for the shipper which is the whole point of air cargo. I don't know the economics of the belly of a plane for sure, but if the a.net myth of "the belly would pay for that flight" is true, then I think it would be a very good move for someone especially with the CLE air cargo growth noted by Massey several times in this thread.

Let's hope for some good news from the conference.

fun2fly wrote:

On the air cargo front, yes a few trucks a day go to EWR. As well to ORD. Both gateways generally add two days to air cargo transit times due to trucking and scanning prior to loading. Many wise shippers have found Rickenbacker to be a good alternative. You can get the cargo there and be on a plane same day. If CLE had one flight to add cargo to, it would do very well just offering the same fares at NYC/CHI gateways as it would save 1-2 days for the shipper which is the whole point of air cargo. I don't know the economics of the belly of a plane for sure, but if the a.net myth of "the belly would pay for that flight" is true, then I think it would be a very good move for someone especially with the CLE air cargo growth noted by Massey several times in this thread.

Let's hope for some good news from the conference.

I can't prove that air cargo in CLE is growing because the stats are given in pounds (sometimes tons), which have shown some growth, but not enough to account for the extra lift both Fedex and UPS have added over the past couple of years.

I wish the stats were given in some universal measure that accounted for cube. It's my belief that CLE shipments are less dense than they used to be, but I can't prove it - and Cleveland's business reporters only talk to the passenger people. As an example, Norton Records (of NYC) just announced that it is moving all of its warehousing and shipping to Lakewood. You will fill a plane with packages of CDs way before you come close to its weight lifting capacity. Their minimum pack is probably 8x6x1.5 inches or .5 cu. ft. weighing half a pound; so an L2 belly container would hold about 300 of them but weigh only 600 lbs (including the container) out of a theoretical weight allowance of 3500 lbs. Cleveland is producing and shipping much more of this type of cargo than formerly, accounting for the 5 or 6 nightly freighters compared to 2 or 3 nightly a few years ago. Lately inbound shipments slightly exceed outbound, but that number is coming closer to even.

So, I *think* cargo is up a lot, but I can't prove it other than to count airplanes. The addition of a LH freighter would make things a lot more interesting.

^Thanks for the insight. Do you think Port Control's people have that level of insight and skill--regarding freight--to sell Cleveland?

greenair727 wrote:

^Thanks for the insight. Do you think Port Control's people have that level of insight and skill--regarding freight--to sell Cleveland?

I was going to write a similar quote. Who? Frank Jackson hasn't done it in several terms so it's not him. Kennedy seems to have a good handle on the pax side. Who would champion airfreight? You'd almost need a corporate sponsor like the shipping lines do at the Port for service to Antwerpen with Lubrizol exec.

There's a terrific article on Crain's Cleveland this week about how stale Cleveland's business and political leadership is-- this according to CEO's anonymously interviewed for the article. The leaders of all major civiic organizations, as well as Jackson and Budish, are long entrenched and/or aging. There's no young guard that I'm aware of slotting in with a fresh set of ideas and energy. Furthermore some of the larger employers, such as Eaton, have really turned in to global corporations, with less emphasis on their hometown.

So, I hadn't really thought about how improved air freight service is missing from the agenda, it is an excellent point raised above. I have mentioned how disappointed I am that a modern airport terminal is not on the civic agenda at all-- yet the Browns have the foresight to say they'll need another new stadium in the next 10 years??? That ain't right.

Kennedy I'm sure is very able at what he does but without a push from his boss, gonna be hard to push the envelope. Seems like other similarly sized communities have a lot more energy devoted to the topic of passenger and freight service.

The only civic push I can remember in the last decade was from the incredibly misguided save the hub campaign from the growth association. This was throwing good money after bad, it was hopeless to expect anything other than what happened after the UA/CO merger.

The trucks of cargo each day that travel from CLE to ORD and EWR that are headed to FRA---are they all bound for Frankfort locations? or does it represent all of Europe? In other words, are there also trucks each day heading to DTW destined for Paris or Amsterdam and trucks going to JFK to jump on AA to London?

I don’t remember the CLE website posting cargo data, but here it is.

http://www.clevelandairport.com/about-us/facts-figures

Cargo is up 4.04% through March.

^that webpage could use some editing and updating: "International destinations include airports in the Canada, the Dominican Republic and Mexico and Jamaica." THE Canada? No Iceland.

Interesting article from OAG about the the fastest growing airports. CVG is the fastest growing medium hub (up 18%), while CLE is #5 (up 11%). The reports erroneously states that CLE is a United hub.

https://www.oag.com/hubfs/Free_Reports/ ... b007359cd1

CLEguy wrote:

Interesting article from OAG about the the fastest growing airports. CVG is the fastest growing medium hub (up 18%), while CLE is #5 (up 11%). The reports erroneously states that CLE is a United hub.

https://www.oag.com/hubfs/Free_Reports/ ... b007359cd1

They called Cleveland "America's Hottest City". Who wrote that piece? Nobody at the Plain Dealer.

masseybrown wrote:

CLEguy wrote:

Interesting article from OAG about the the fastest growing airports. CVG is the fastest growing medium hub (up 18%), while CLE is #5 (up 11%). The reports erroneously states that CLE is a United hub.

https://www.oag.com/hubfs/Free_Reports/ ... b007359cd1

They called Cleveland "America's Hottest City". Who wrote that piece? Nobody at the Plain Dealer.

Cleveland IS "America's Hottest City"!

Just ran some quick numbers. Since the time period ended April 2018, adding the annual seats of the Icelands (9x weekly x 52 weeks), CLE is still #5 at +12.5%.

greenair727 wrote:

THE Canada?

It's like Ohio State.

As a response to the tariff insult, Trudeau is demanding the country be called "The Canada". [kidding!]