cledaybuck wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

THE Canada?

It's like Ohio State.

As in, the school nobody likes?

flymco753 wrote:

cledaybuck wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

THE Canada?

It's like Ohio State.

As in, the school nobody likes?

As in, the school that is better at football than yours (Alabama and Clemson exempted).

The SwiftAir CLE-PUJ charter is still operating as a 762 or 763 - today's 762 is due at 1629.

cledaybuck wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

cledaybuck wrote:

It's like Ohio State.

As in, the school nobody likes?

As in, the school that is better at football than yours (Alabama and Clemson exempted).

I'll admit.

cledaybuck wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

cledaybuck wrote:

It's like Ohio State.

As in, the school nobody likes?

As in, the school that is better at football than yours (Alabama and Clemson exempted).

As in the school nobody actually ever went to but cheers for anyway because they win sometimes.

masseybrown wrote:

The SwiftAir CLE-PUJ charter is still operating as a 762 or 763 - today's 762 is due at 1629.

I was on a flight last weekend which took off right behind the 767. It was pretty weird seeing a passenger 767 at the airport, even weirder to be in a 737 right behind it. Really wish we got more widebodies than just UPS and Fedex.

N766UA wrote:

cledaybuck wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

As in, the school nobody likes?

As in, the school that is better at football than yours (Alabama and Clemson exempted).

As in the school nobody actually ever went to but cheers for anyway because they win sometimes.

I mean, I'll admit that I root for them and never went there, but they are one of the largest schools in the U.S. 60,000 students ain't a joke.

VetteDude wrote:

N766UA wrote:

cledaybuck wrote:

As in, the school that is better at football than yours (Alabama and Clemson exempted).

As in the school nobody actually ever went to but cheers for anyway because they win sometimes.

I mean, I'll admit that I root for them and never went there, but they are one of the largest schools in the U.S. 60,000 students ain't a joke.

Nobody goes there anymore, its too crowded (I did). And they win a lot more than sometimes (as someone who roots for Cleveland sports teams, thank god). But anyway, about CLE...

Have a CLE customs process question: Is this the order of events:

1. Cleveland immigration
2. then get checked luggage
3. then clear customs (and agriculture if needed),
4.THEN put checked bag on a belt to go to either final destination or CLE baggage carousel
5. then clear TSA Security into Terminal Concourse A
6. then get bags at baggage claim if any or jump on connecting flight.

If the above is true, if you buy a fancy bottle of booze at an airport after you check your luggage and you carry it on the plane in your carry on, you have the opportunity to put it in your luggage after cleaning customs in CLE but before going through TSA security in CLE who would otherwise take it. Just trying to confirm--thanks!

greenair727 wrote:

^that webpage could use some editing and updating: "International destinations include airports in the Canada, the Dominican Republic and Mexico and Jamaica." THE Canada? No Iceland.

It's "Le Canada" in their other language. Baseball players refer to "the Dominican". US soldiers in Germany talk about visiting "the Czech". We say the United States. Why not the Canada?

Heard some interesting UA gossip: The CLE mx operation (not only good but cheap, relative to UA's other stations) is keeping more flights at CLE than UA really wants to operate.

greenair727 wrote:

Have a CLE customs process question: Is this the order of events:

1. Cleveland immigration
2. then get checked luggage
3. then clear customs (and agriculture if needed),
4.THEN put checked bag on a belt to go to either final destination or CLE baggage carousel
5. then clear TSA Security into Terminal Concourse A
6. then get bags at baggage claim if any or jump on connecting flight.

If the above is true, if you buy a fancy bottle of booze at an airport after you check your luggage and you carry it on the plane in your carry on, you have the opportunity to put it in your luggage after cleaning customs in CLE but before going through TSA security in CLE who would otherwise take it. Just trying to confirm--thanks!

You got it exactly correct! Stuff the booze in your checked luggage after customs and you'll be fine. Make sure it's well padded! In fact, I saw a lady at customs from the same row on my flight with a duty free bag with a bottle of alcohol bought in Germany and warned her to put the bottle in her checked luggage.

Flew from CLE to DCA last night on United. Saw an Alaska 737 parked by the IX Center with the Kevin Durant livery.

CLEguy wrote:

You got it exactly correct! Stuff the booze in your checked luggage after customs and you'll be fine. Make sure it's well padded! In fact, I saw a lady at customs from the same row on my flight with a duty free bag with a bottle of alcohol bought in Germany and warned her to put the bottle in her checked luggage.

Thanks CLEguy--just wanted to make certain I understood the bizarre entry process that is Cleveland!

SgtBarone wrote:

Flew from CLE to DCA last night on United. Saw an Alaska 737 parked by the IX Center with the Kevin Durant livery.

It left for Oakland CA about 2:30AM, something basketball related, I'd say. A bunch of other planes left this morning for San Jose and Oakland.

Regarding the comments here that trucks of cargo each day that travel from CLE to ORD and EWR that are headed to FRA, are they all bound for places near Frankfort itself or is it just a hub and cargo is then transferred to places all over LH's network? Are there also trucks each day headed to DTW for DL (AMS/CDG) and to JFK for AA (to LHR)?

greenair727 wrote:

Regarding the comments here that trucks of cargo each day that travel from CLE to ORD and EWR that are headed to FRA, are they all bound for places near Frankfort itself or is it just a hub and cargo is then transferred to places all over LH's network? Are there also trucks each day headed to DTW for DL (AMS/CDG) and to JFK for AA (to LHR)?

No different than the US. Spokes feed the cargo hub in the US (ORD, JFK, etc.) then head to the EU cargo hub (FRA, etc.) and go out for delivery on a truck after they are cleared (or transferred to another plane). The whole process should be 5-6 days. With service from CLE, figure you could cut off 2 days not having to truck to a US cargo gateway.

SgtBarone wrote:

Flew from CLE to DCA last night on United. Saw an Alaska 737 parked by the IX Center with the Kevin Durant livery.

It had either Warrior employees or family members on board

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jac ... ed-public/

fun2fly wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

Regarding the comments here that trucks of cargo each day that travel from CLE to ORD and EWR that are headed to FRA, are they all bound for places near Frankfort itself or is it just a hub and cargo is then transferred to places all over LH's network? Are there also trucks each day headed to DTW for DL (AMS/CDG) and to JFK for AA (to LHR)?

No different than the US. Spokes feed the cargo hub in the US (ORD, JFK, etc.) then head to the EU cargo hub (FRA, etc.) and go out for delivery on a truck after they are cleared (or transferred to another plane). The whole process should be 5-6 days. With service from CLE, figure you could cut off 2 days not having to truck to a US cargo gateway.

Thanks. So, how many trucks total are shipping out of Cleveland each night, heading to ORD/DTW/NYC/Elsewhere? Someone had said two trucks/day to EWR---but what is the total market out of CLE each night? How many trucks?

greenair727 wrote:

Thanks. So, how many trucks total are shipping out of Cleveland each night, heading to ORD/DTW/NYC/Elsewhere? Someone had said two trucks/day to EWR---but what is the total market out of CLE each night? How many trucks?

My recollection is that 100 tons a day is trucked to other airports, but I can't find you a source. Sorry.

^In the US, max weight load is 80,000 lbs (without overweight exemptions). If a tractor and trailer empty is 34,000 lbs, the max load is if full is 46,000 pounds, or 23 tons. As you noted, some cargo may be more bulky than just heavy---so 100 tons a day is 4-5-6 trucks per day. That's certainly enough for a TATL cargo flight....

greenair727 wrote:

^In the US, max weight load is 80,000 lbs (without overweight exemptions). If a tractor and trailer empty is 34,000 lbs, the max load is if full is 46,000 pounds, or 23 tons. As you noted, some cargo may be more bulky than just heavy---so 100 tons a day is 4-5-6 trucks per day. That's certainly enough for a TATL cargo flight....

It is, provided that you capture a measurable % of the market share with the local freight forwarders/shippers. 3x per week is no problem as many cargo routes are less than daily frequency. There are a lot of smart ones out there that can run the real #'s, but the fact that no one has, to some point, tells you that we might not be correct or that CLE airport administration is not actively seeking a partner in this respect.

fun2fly wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

^In the US, max weight load is 80,000 lbs (without overweight exemptions). If a tractor and trailer empty is 34,000 lbs, the max load is if full is 46,000 pounds, or 23 tons. As you noted, some cargo may be more bulky than just heavy---so 100 tons a day is 4-5-6 trucks per day. That's certainly enough for a TATL cargo flight....

It is, provided that you capture a measurable % of the market share with the local freight forwarders/shippers. 3x per week is no problem as many cargo routes are less than daily frequency. There are a lot of smart ones out there that can run the real #'s, but the fact that no one has, to some point, tells you that we might not be correct or that CLE airport administration is not actively seeking a partner in this respect.

The airport has a management consultant level-of-effort contract they can tap if they need help. In this instance I bet it's a case they have made before and all they needed to do was update the numbers.

I found it interesting they announced that they were talking to LH. Maybe to put a little pressure on somebody else? I've always thought that for a potential 100 tons Fedex could stop one of their IND-Europe flights at CLE.

Port Control did commission a freight study a few years ago (under Ricky Smith)--I'm trying to find it as I thought i had a copy, but can't seem to find it. It was done by a consultant and I cannot remember which one.

greenair727 wrote:

Port Control did commission a freight study a few years ago (under Ricky Smith)--I'm trying to find it as I thought i had a copy, but can't seem to find it. It was done by a consultant and I cannot remember which one.

It would be an interesting read for sure.

While maybe not a dedicated cargo lane, CLE has plenty to top off the belly of any TATL flights in both directions if it comes to fruition.

^can the stuff being trucked to EWR or elsewhere fit in the belly of a pax flight or does it need the full space of a cargo aircraft?

Was checking Icelandair advanced booking on random dates thru December and it looks like they’re sticking with the 737 MAX, I thought I saw/heard it was going to the 752 this fall/winter but apparently not!

They were originally going to use 752s from Jan 2 until April but they downgraded them...well there goes our chance to see one their 3 AMAZING special liveries in CLE...

Oh well, mostly my fingers are crossed that they stick with year round service-- this will give them a leg up against WOW (at least based on what WOW has committed to on the schedule so far) and it will probably speak well to their bookings and yields-- or at the very least in their patience in developing CLE.

Though no hope for special liveries the seating capacity isn't all that different. According to SeatGuru the 737 Max seats 160 in all classes and the 757-200 around 180, or 180 and change depending on the variant.

Groyd wrote:

They were originally going to use 752s from Jan 2 until April but they downgraded them...well there goes our chance to see one their 3 AMAZING special liveries in CLE...

Based on what info? The MAX 8's are considerably more efficient regarding fuel burn/seat mile than the 757's and the additional range of the 757's is required for the new routes to Dallas and Kansas City. While it would be great to see one of their specials visit CLE, it would not have made economical sense.

Groyd wrote:

They were originally going to use 752s from Jan 2 until April but they downgraded them...well there goes our chance to see one their 3 AMAZING special liveries in CLE...

It seems like those scheduled 757's were placeholders much like when service was initially announced. Once Max 8's were delivered as scheduled the 757's were moved to routes where the range/capacity is required and the Max 8, more suited to CLE service, was moved into its place.

Another PD story about the FIS: https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index. ... ontin.html

Today should test the system. Scheduled arrivals:

762 from CUN 4:26PM
762 from MBJ 5:33PM
78M from KEF 6:14PM

from the PD article:

"Kennedy said the airport looked into creating a secure path from the international arrivals, at the end of Concourse A, to baggage claim. The estimated cost was $17 million. The airport also looked at relocating the customs facility to an area adjacent to the main terminal, which would cost $44 million."

To me, the 'secure path' is the way to go---to bussing, no TSA. If a whole new FIS costs $44M, how can just putting some barriers to create a secure path cost $17M? That estimate seems WAY too high.

^I guess the other airlines would complain about $17 mil for a couple of flights a day. They'll have to bury it in some other project.

Greenair, YYZ's USA regional jet concourse-- which is a bus station variant, might be a model for the challenge CLE faces. Glass walls separating a long corridor down the concourse, special revolving doors so that boarding can be segregated from passengers exiting to immigration (actually now that I type it I can't remember if YYZ uses the special revolving doors but some airports I've been to do, such as CDG terminal 1). In Toronto, the sterile corridor to immigration makes one side of the concourse totally useless other than as a corridor--- you can't have stores, you can't have bathrooms, and boarding can be cumbersome and even slightly delayed if exiting passengers are using the corridor at the same time as boarding.

I need to read the article but I might assume that the CLE solution would go down to ground level, in which case a from scratch sterile corridor would have to be built-- around existing luggage and other ground level services-- it would need to have elevators, maybe be heated, who knows what it's like down there now. It's probably too difficult to sacrifice one side of the concourse A in Cleveland as is done in Toronto.

^Thanks, ncflyer. What gates do int'l arrivals use that feed directly into the current FIS?

OK I read the article it is not specific enough to say whether the secure path is at ground level or not, but I could see the project being very complex, I'm sure whichever regulatory agency governs sterile immigration areas has very strict requirements, we don't know the half of them.

masseybrown wrote:

762 from CUN 4:26PM
762 from MBJ 5:33PM
78M from KEF 6:14PM

FlightAware update: they're bunching up

762 from PUJ (not CUN) - 6:04PM
762 from MBJ - 6:17PM
78M from KEF - 7:02PM

Airports across the country, including many CLE-sized ones, are investing billions with a B in improving their passenger experiences. Cleveland, meanwhile, says “we don’t have the money” for a 17M$ project and continues to spend just about 0 elsewhere on capital improvements. Systemic intenptitude is my only conclusion.

Someone else will have to answer Greenair's questions about which gates feed FIS but if I'm not mistaken it is 2 or 3 gates towards the end of A. Not the very end, but just about.

I just wish a civic or business leader would get a new terminal on the civic agenda. I know it's not cheap, easy, or maybe even feasible, but let's at least start talking about it. . . .

masseybrown wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

762 from CUN 4:26PM
762 from MBJ 5:33PM
78M from KEF 6:14PM

FlightAware update: they're bunching up

762 from PUJ (not CUN) - 6:04PM
762 from MBJ - 6:17PM
78M from KEF - 7:02PM

Interesting. Imaging if the KEF flight wasn't late? We'd have three aircraft all arriving within a 13-minute period.

How nimble is the TSA? For situations like this, could they shift some staff from A/B/C down to the FIS?

I know everything costs money...but send the international flights to Concourse D -- convert the smaller gate areas to handle larger aircraft and build an overhead, covered walkway to the main terminal -- and/or build a roadway and baggage claim at Concourse D where people do not even need to traverse the main terminal.

Sure, it would cost money...but it seems like already having an existing terminal would cut down the price tag substantially...perhaps even have a few other airlines using it with larger jets, too, so it isn't idle for long stretches.

Because the existing situation is an embarrassment for an international gateway...it basically hasn't changed since JAT had DC-10s to Ljubljana and Condor had DC-8s to Warsaw in the 1980's.

Jetpixx that would be so much more than a terminal A connector. Brand new FIS from scratch in a building that is currently shut down and not built for mainline aircraft? Making people walk outside in the elements? I don’t understand your proposal it seems worse than the other bad options.

greenair727 wrote:

^Thanks, ncflyer. What gates do int'l arrivals use that feed directly into the current FIS?

A9, A11 and A14 are international arrival gates.

I am currently at the airport waiting for my brother who arrived on FI837 from KEF. The two other charter flights from PUJ and MBJ were late. The Icelandair flight was actually early, but had to wait for A11 to become available. Then the jetway malfunctioned delaying them for over an hour! Bags are arriving as I type at 8:50, 1 hour and 47 minutes after touchdown. Needless to say passengers are fuming. Not a great welcome for international arrivals.

^ Ouch!

Is it true that A9 and A11 cannot be used at the same time? Thought I heard that once.

ncflyer wrote:

Jetpixx that would be so much more than a terminal A connector. Brand new FIS from scratch in a building that is currently shut down and not built for mainline aircraft? Making people walk outside in the elements? I don’t understand your proposal it seems worse than the other bad options.

No. Build everything that is needed in Concourse D. Convert the terminal for a handful of usable gates, have FIS there...and/or have a roadway so people do not even need to go inside the main terminal -- or have a connector overhead to the main terminal.

Of course, all of that would hinge on working out some kind of a deal with United.

^ Interesting proposal, but wasn’t Concourse D’s inability to handle mainline aircraft mentioned earlier on this thread? If it were converted to handle 737/767 type aircraft, would there be space for 100+ seats per gate? If they did this, would there be room for shops and restaurants? Is it really worth it just for a few gates and an FIS relocation?

Groyd wrote:

^ Interesting proposal, but wasn’t Concourse D’s inability to handle mainline aircraft mentioned earlier on this thread? If it were converted to handle 737/767 type aircraft, would there be space for 100+ seats per gate? If they did this, would there be room for shops and restaurants? Is it really worth it just for a few gates and an FIS relocation?

D was built with the possibility of converting it to use by mainline jets. The entire backside area where the prop-jets were handled was seen as temporary. Gate areas would have to be reconfigured, especially if the terminal were going to be used by both international and domestic flights, to segregate international arrivals. As mentioned above, a fast, direct connection to the main terminal or some sort of direct access from the roadways would be necessary and likely quite expensive. I'm not at all convinced that converting D into an international terminal is the best solution. I think we will have to wait the results of the upcoming master plan. Hopefully, an interim solution to the current operational FIS woes can be developed. Keep in mind, CLE controls only the facilities, not the personnel that staff them. So the current weak links include CBP and TSA who don't staff adequately to speed up the processing of passengers, and the woefully inadequate contract staff that FI and WW have hired in CLE. The less-than-ideal facilities could work much better with enough well-trained staff.

Groyd wrote:

^ Interesting proposal, but wasn’t Concourse D’s inability to handle mainline aircraft mentioned earlier on this thread? If it were converted to handle 737/767 type aircraft, would there be space for 100+ seats per gate? If they did this, would there be room for shops and restaurants? Is it really worth it just for a few gates and an FIS relocation?

The last time I was over in D, it was pretty cramped. Even before the interior mods, when D was more open, it was a hoppin’ place handling RJ’s. I really don’t think it would make a good terminal for international aircraft (or even mainline, for that matter) and don’t really understand the infatuation with it.

N766UA wrote:

The last time I was over in D, it was pretty cramped. Even before the interior mods, when D was more open, it was a hoppin’ place handling RJ’s. I really don’t think it would make a good terminal for international aircraft (or even mainline, for that matter) and don’t really understand the infatuation with it.

The gate holding areas were barely adequate for 50-seaters; there would have to be a gate reduction, at least on the side opposite Conc. C. The cost to make D into a really good FIS would be higher than people think. Hence, it might beworth it as part of a bigger plan to replace the older parts of the terminal; but as a stand alone effort, probably not.

OTOH, $17 million really isn't that much for a sterile corridor avoiding the TSA. I would gladly walk a mile even dragging a bag along rather than wait for a bus. If the next CATS report (due by July 1) reports CLE debt in the mid-$600 millions (down from $724 million at the end of 2016) I'd think $17 million for an interim fix would be very affordable without raising fees to the airlines.