• 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 22
 
joeman
Posts: 757
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:57 am

compensateme wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
^Why is F9 cutting so much in CLE--esp. after recently announcing connecting flights in CLE (and a few other cities)?


Poor performance. $49 fares to LAX and $29 to MCO (among other fares) are great for passengers, but simply not sustainable. Take advantage of them while they last.

CLE the only market they do this from? No...Wondering how well they'll do with routes like the upcoming PHL-MSN
 
greenair727
Posts: 1011
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:41 pm

N766UA wrote:
I'm genuinely confused by this "college student" logic. Are you guys suggesting that CVG, equidistant from CMH as CLE, wouldn't have a flight to CDG without... college kids? I mean, how many college kids do you know that travel to Europe anyway? They go to Cancun and Panama City, Florida, not Paris.


Huh? No one suggested that. All carrots are vegetables, not but not vegetables are carrots. College kids are passengers that are subset of all pax, but they are not all pax. No one said they make or break any route.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 2462
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:57 pm

joeman wrote:
compensateme wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
^Why is F9 cutting so much in CLE--esp. after recently announcing connecting flights in CLE (and a few other cities)?


Poor performance. $49 fares to LAX and $29 to MCO (among other fares) are great for passengers, but simply not sustainable. Take advantage of them while they last.

CLE the only market they do this from? No...Wondering how well they'll do with routes like the upcoming PHL-MSN


The aforementioned are examples of fares that have been available since the fall and have decent availability into the future; even UA has matched. Can you point to another market with a similar fare structure?

CLE has experienced unprecedented growth over the past two years, with local enplanements growing by roughly 20%, or 1M. Much of this grown was stimulated by low fares that simply aren't sustainable, hence F9's decision to cut physical capacity by nearly a third come summer. In the interim, it's a great time to travel for everyone in Cleveland.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
plinth857
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:09 pm

Someone late last year posted that they expected more, not less from United at CLE this year. I don't know if we will see more destinations, but perhaps more capacity? Scott Kirby's last address to investors seems to indicate that they plan on "reviving smaller markets." He believes that by making certain cutbacks, they ceded customers to other carriers, and would like to reverse that. UA still has plenty of elites and high yield pax in CLE, so perhaps this could be referring to their operation here. All speculation, of course.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2018/01/24/united-turnaround-plan-bolster-hubs-revive-smaller-markets/1060324001/
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 2462
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:29 pm

plinth857 wrote:
Someone late last year posted that they expected more, not less from United at CLE this year. I don't know if we will see more destinations, but perhaps more capacity? Scott Kirby's last address to investors seems to indicate that they plan on "reviving smaller markets." He believes that by making certain cutbacks, they ceded customers to other carriers, and would like to reverse that. UA still has plenty of elites and high yield pax in CLE, so perhaps this could be referring to their operation here. All speculation, of course.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2018/01/24/united-turnaround-plan-bolster-hubs-revive-smaller-markets/1060324001/


The article seems to suggest the opposite of your hypothesis. :confused:

Per the article, UA believes that if it strengths its core hubs to smaller markets, it will have a "trickle up" effect; e.g. RST-ORD could generate high-yielding passengers for ORD. So if UA begins reallocating its resources to grow its core hubs, at best, CLE will remain stagnant if not shrink.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
Trk1
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:49 pm

The announcement to add flights to den,iAd and ord from smaller cities is part of a up to 6% expansion. Other markets are not being cut in any way. Added regional aircraft will be used for the flights. 24 additional mainline aircraft will be used system wide along with higher aircraft utilization. Expect cle to den frequency to be at a post merger high this summer with 4 frequencies daily. Expect cle ua service to be at 2017 levels from may onward. United will have a higher market share in cle 2018 vs 2017.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5119
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:16 am

Wow, I stepped on an anthill! :eek: No, not all college students traipse off to Europe, but a good number of them do; and a CLE ticket offers the best price and convenience to a LOT of them. The Icelanders in CLE would be crazy not to market to OSU, Kenyon, Ashland, Hiram, Wooster, BGSU (even if it is closer to DTW), etc.
 
joeman
Posts: 757
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:29 am

compensateme wrote:
joeman wrote:
compensateme wrote:

Poor performance. $49 fares to LAX and $29 to MCO (among other fares) are great for passengers, but simply not sustainable. Take advantage of them while they last.

CLE the only market they do this from? No...Wondering how well they'll do with routes like the upcoming PHL-MSN


The aforementioned are examples of fares that have been available since the fall and have decent availability into the future; even UA has matched. Can you point to another market with a similar fare structure?

I certainly agree that those fares are ridiculously low. I see F9 website offering $29 fares from quite a number of markets in their "Best Deal" section, which is what I obviously meant, and I have a feeling that seats at those prices are limited. But I gotta admit that since I'm not interested in other markets, no I haven't checked into competing legacy carrier fares not budging much if at all against ULCC fares as implied, especially in relatively similar market sizes as CVG. Certainly had no clue that UA was matching $49 CLE-LAX or $29 MCO at any point in time.

I'm looking at a Frontier $49 Book Now ad on this very forum right now....only CLE as I originally suggested?
 
jmertic
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:44 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:16 pm

Cleveland Hopkins airport renovates customs area in advance of new Iceland flights (photos)

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... _plan.html

Sounds like it's back to the old days of having to go through TSA on arrival...
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 799
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:21 pm

compensateme wrote:
joeman wrote:
compensateme wrote:

Poor performance. $49 fares to LAX and $29 to MCO (among other fares) are great for passengers, but simply not sustainable. Take advantage of them while they last.

CLE the only market they do this from? No...Wondering how well they'll do with routes like the upcoming PHL-MSN


The aforementioned are examples of fares that have been available since the fall and have decent availability into the future; even UA has matched.
I think this is much of F9's problem. I don't think they thought UA would match fares like that from CLE.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 2462
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:18 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
The aforementioned are examples of fares that have been available since the fall and have decent availability into the future; even UA has matched.
I think this is much of F9's problem. I don't think they thought UA would match fares like that from CLE.[/quote]

Or perhaps the low fares were necessary because of the abundance of capacity in the market. CLE's had an impressive, unprecedented two-year run (20%+ increase in local enplanemnts) but it's not surprising there's a slight market correction.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
plinth857
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:38 pm

jmertic wrote:
Cleveland Hopkins airport renovates customs area in advance of new Iceland flights (photos)

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... _plan.html

Sounds like it's back to the old days of having to go through TSA on arrival...


Maybe, but I for one will be glad to not have to take that cursed bus.
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 502
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:15 pm

jmertic wrote:
Cleveland Hopkins airport renovates customs area in advance of new Iceland flights (photos)

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... _plan.html

Sounds like it's back to the old days of having to go through TSA on arrival...


It’s interesting how it mentions making connections easier. However, the Wow flight lands at 11:30pm, so there is nothing for passengers to self connect to without leaving the airport and coming back the next day. The Icelandair flight lands at 7:15pm, too late for someone to self connect to any flight except for a WN flight to MDW at 9:40pm. Since Wow and Icelandair already serve Chicago, I think it’s safe to say there will be zero self connecting traffic beyond CLE for the Iceland flights.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 796
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:06 pm

Another opportunity in the press (with a pretty lengthy article) to back up the Joe Roman prediction, and another case of silence. This is a very good point that the Iceland schedules aren't timed for connections upon landing at CLE, so the journalist or Kennedy could have made some sort of even gentle hint "just in case connections are needed in the future" type of comment. Nada.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1011
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:15 pm

^Good point.

The bus sounds awful. But it's also crazy as well to have to go through security to enter Cleveland (the city). If one (or everyone, that is, for now) is not connecting, the ideal situation would be like landing at JFK or EWR, or anywhere in the world, where you just exit the airport. Is that impossible at Hopkins? Could some corridor be built that opens into the baggage claim area?
 
User avatar
CLEguy
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:17 am

Having used CLE as a point of entry using both systems, I vastly preferred the bus to avoid the need to go through TSA silliness again and to allow me to bring my duty free bubbly home without packing it in checked luggage. The last time I went through customs was years ago on a flight from LHR, but there were a sufficient number of busses and I was able to take my checked bag right on the bus direct to the terminal, thereby also avoiding having to claim my bag again landside. I'll see how the system works in June when I arrive from KEF on FI. Wonder if there will be TSA PreCheck? Also, the comments in the article mention that CLE has a Global Entry kiosk (I hope there are more than one!).
 
jmertic
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:44 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:21 am

greenair727 wrote:
^Good point.

The bus sounds awful. But it's also crazy as well to have to go through security to enter Cleveland (the city). If one (or everyone, that is, for now) is not connecting, the ideal situation would be like landing at JFK or EWR, or anywhere in the world, where you just exit the airport. Is that impossible at Hopkins? Could some corridor be built that opens into the baggage claim area?


If there were no further gates on the even side of A, yes a corridor could be built. But it would be long ( think from between A8 and A6 all the way down to the security checkpoint, then down that hallway to baggage claim. It would likely be exterior to the building as well since that concourse is rather narrow.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1011
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:01 am

^Well, one would have to walk that distance anyway, right? So I'd rather do that long walk without ALSO having to go through security. I hope this 'fix' is truly a temporary measure, not like the Uber/Lyft location which has been "temporary" for a few years now, I hear.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 7931
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:06 am

"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1011
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:23 am

Great movie. What year did UA change their logo to the red and orange "U"? I thought by 74 that was already in place, but none of the planes had that livery. Also, notable is the lack of any small planes in CLE--all big jets.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 7931
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:36 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Great movie. What year did UA change their logo to the red and orange "U"? I thought by 74 that was already in place, but none of the planes had that livery. Also, notable is the lack of any small planes in CLE--all big jets.




Timetable that introduced that "U" livery....note the date
http://www.airtimes.com/cgat/usc/united/ua740909.jpg
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Robert1010
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:22 am

727LOVER wrote:

Sweet video! It’s sad the same terminals and whole airport for that matter are still there !
 
User avatar
CLEguy
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:08 am

Robert1010 wrote:
727LOVER wrote:

Sweet video! It’s sad the same terminals and whole airport for that matter are still there !


Well, the banjo at the end of the South Concourse (C) was significantly expanded by CO in the 1990's, and D wasn't built yet either. The EA 727 boarded from stairs, too, from the one story West Concourse (B). Love the UA and NW DC-10's and the stretch DC-8!
 
StuckinCMHland
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:59 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:16 am

727LOVER wrote:


I wonder how much of that he shot from the old observation deck above the main concourse. Those were fun days to go and watch airplanes take off and land from CLE.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5119
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:41 am

AA is reducing CLE-LGA to 2 weekday flights in mid-Feb. The third flight comes back in May, according to aa.com
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1251
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:53 am

masseybrown wrote:
AA is reducing CLE-LGA to 2 weekday flights in mid-Feb. The third flight comes back in May, according to aa.com


I was actually booking CLE>NYC for March this week. I was surprised at AA's lack of depth in their NYC schedule vs. DL. Only 1 JFK too. AA's always been a just enough to CLE type of carrier from NYC, but it now seems below that. I guess it should not be surprising that is the case as the PHL route has grown a lot and that is their focus for TATL traffic.

It's impressive what DL has done in the past 4-5 years on NYC.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5119
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:32 pm

fun2fly wrote:
. I was surprised at AA's lack of depth in their NYC schedule vs. DL. Only 1 JFK too. AA's always been a just enough to CLE type of carrier from NYC, but it now seems below that. I guess it should not be surprising that is the case as the PHL route has grown a lot and that is their focus for TATL traffic.


I wouldn't be surprised if the May return of the third flight never happens. AA probably figured that UA would withdraw from CLE-LGA, but so far UA has only reduced frequency from 8 to 6 flights. AA could even cancel the route entirely; they have lots of alternatives for the frequencies; UA doesn't.
 
plinth857
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:35 pm

Is there any way to find data concerning how many passengers connect through CLE? I would be interested to know the percentage by carrier; I would guess that WN connects more passengers in CLE than any other carrier.
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:39 pm

plinth857 wrote:
Is there any way to find data concerning how many passengers connect through CLE? I would be interested to know the percentage by carrier; I would guess that WN connects more passengers in CLE than any other carrier.


Roughly 4% of passengers connect through CLE. As far as individual carriers, I agree with you that WN probably connects the most, followed by United.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
greenair727
Posts: 1011
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:30 pm

On the ticketing concourse between United and Southwest, there is a big "Cleveland" sign taking up a lot of space. Is that where WW or FI is going to go? If so, where will the other be? Not alot of space....
 
swacle
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:39 pm

greenair727 wrote:
On the ticketing concourse between United and Southwest, there is a big "Cleveland" sign taking up a lot of space. Is that where WW or FI is going to go? If so, where will the other be? Not alot of space....


I believe AA was supposed to move to that area of south ticketing. Not sure if that is still happening or not, though.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5119
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:27 pm

swacle wrote:
I believe AA was supposed to move to that area of south ticketing. Not sure if that is still happening or not, though.


An AA rep told me last summer they expect to move ticketing "eventually"; but there was no timetable that she knew of.
 
corn4ahead
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:44 pm

Last night, I spent some time looking through the Master Plan on the airport website. It seems like there are some good ideas with how to update the terminal. I understand the plans were made when we were still a hub but I still feel that the upgrades are desperately needed.

Does anyone know when/if they are planning on moving along with these plans?
 
User avatar
CLEguy
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:20 pm

greenair727 wrote:
On the ticketing concourse between United and Southwest, there is a big "Cleveland" sign taking up a lot of space. Is that where WW or FI is going to go? If so, where will the other be? Not alot of space....


There is a similar blue Cleveland sign right next to AA's ticket counter next to the entrance to the North security checkpoint. Not sure if it's just for aesthetics or if it will be eventually used by an airline. There is also some space next to Allegiant and the Charter check in formerly occupied by Southwest. I'm sure FI or WW could use this space and be right next to the Central checkpoint, which will likely be the only one open when WW operates.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 796
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:36 pm

IMHO any master plan that doesn’t address what to do with D is worthless. CVG faced reality and downsized its facility, and it looks like PIT is headed in that direction. There has been zero public comment on this issue since UA left, so D— though a more modern facility than the rest of the complex— sits as an eyesore on land that could be put to use. The right answer might be to keep D and mothball the 1950s concourses, but this is what planning and architecture is all about. I don’t have strong opinions on how to get out of the mess but having an empty building greet visitors is so Cleveland. It’s Right up there with the empty shopping centers on both sides of of480 in Garfield Heights or, until the Amazon investment, Randall Park.
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:40 pm

The airport terminal map has been updated to show the new shops/restaurants and the Mother's Room:

http://www.clevelandairport.com/sites/d ... 012918.pdf
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FRA IAD IAH JAX LAX LGB MAD MCI MDW MKE MUC PHX RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
corn4ahead
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:46 pm

Why in the world wasn't Concourse D connected to the main terminal initially anyway? Like who thought it would be a good idea to connect via underground tunnel?
 
User avatar
CLEguy
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:15 pm

corn4ahead wrote:
Why in the world wasn't Concourse D connected to the main terminal initially anyway? Like who thought it would be a good idea to connect via underground tunnel?


Continental obviously did as it was built to their specifications as part of a connecting hub in CLE. Hindsight is 20/20.
 
corn4ahead
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:20 pm

CLEguy wrote:
corn4ahead wrote:
Why in the world wasn't Concourse D connected to the main terminal initially anyway? Like who thought it would be a good idea to connect via underground tunnel?


Continental obviously did as it was built to their specifications as part of a connecting hub in CLE. Hindsight is 20/20.


It seems like quite the oversight to me.

Does the old mantra, "if you build it, they will come," apply to airports? Or, is it entirely dependant of the market?
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 2638
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:39 pm

corn4ahead wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
corn4ahead wrote:
Why in the world wasn't Concourse D connected to the main terminal initially anyway? Like who thought it would be a good idea to connect via underground tunnel?


Continental obviously did as it was built to their specifications as part of a connecting hub in CLE. Hindsight is 20/20.


It seems like quite the oversight to me.

Does the old mantra, "if you build it, they will come," apply to airports? Or, is it entirely dependant of the market?
The Key is corporate contracts too, or at least one of the many keys to success. I’ll use DTW as an example since corporate ties in Central Florida are weak compared to Detroit, but Delta wins out the contracts for the most part, especially on international cargo which is huge bucks. If an airline can find major contracts in a city then they’ll start to develop air service to help meet those contracts. Now ULCC’s are much different. They’re targeting O&D markets much like Orlando or Fort Lauderdale.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

*Future Route Network Planner*
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 2462
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:46 pm

ncflyer wrote:
IMHO any master plan that doesn’t address what to do with D is worthless. CVG faced reality and downsized its facility, and it looks like PIT is headed in that direction. There has been zero public comment on this issue since UA left, so D— though a more modern facility than the rest of the complex— sits as an eyesore on land that could be put to use. The right answer might be to keep D and mothball the 1950s concourses, but this is what planning and architecture is all about. I don’t have strong opinions on how to get out of the mess but having an empty building greet visitors is so Cleveland. It’s Right up there with the empty shopping centers on both sides of of480 in Garfield Heights or, until the Amazon investment, Randall Park.


And who's going to pay for it? CLE has a ton of debt (mostly related to construction of the additional runway) but UA is responsible for payments toward the debt related to D. Reopening D would not only require significant capital (it's currently designed to handle one airline and configured for ERJ & props) but would ultimately provide UA some relief (e.g. less $$$ for the airport). Not to mention D is a hike and distant from the primary shopping & dining areas (again, less revenue and greater passenger inconvenience).

CLE is not in the same position as CVG and PIT -- both have significantly less debt, which enables them to take on capital projects more readily. In 10-15 years, when CLE's debt is paid down, it'll likely begin to explore replacing its terminal complex (and that will probably include demolishing D).
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5119
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:03 pm

corn4ahead wrote:
Why in the world wasn't Concourse D connected to the main terminal initially anyway? Like who thought it would be a good idea to connect via underground tunnel?


When D was designed, CO carried proportionately much less O&D traffic; when 13 million pax a year were flying through CLE, it was very much a connecting hub and CO wasn't worried about the relatively few local travelers who had to walk from ticketing to D via the tunnel.

Right now D is probably the airport's most profitable real estate. It costs them almost nothing to maintain and United is paying a couple of million a month in rent for the next nine years. Why should the airport be in a rush to kill that golden goose? If, however, UA paid off the bonds associated with D and the airport had a prospective tenant, the airport would probably let UA out of the lease.

A thing to keep in mind about D is that the gate holding areas were intended for 50-seaters and are pretty small; redesigning it for larger planes would probably cost half the gates - without spending big $$$, D wouldn't provide much more capacity than B does now.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 796
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:03 pm

Putting together an updated master facility plan costs very little. That’s all that needs to happen now. Baby steps. No one can say whether it’s a billion dollar project like Pittsburgh— or something smaller or bigger. Waiting 10 to 15 years to do that is how a 1950s airport hits its 100th anniversary with an empty 50 year old building and no plan in place.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 796
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:05 pm

As far as UA is concerned I’m sure both parties could come to a negotiated settlement to shorten the lease terms for upfront money, the end of the lease I’d not that far away after all— and the amount owed has to be chump change to UA.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5119
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:11 pm

compensateme wrote:
CLE is not in the same position as CVG and PIT -- both have significantly less debt, which enables them to take on capital projects more readily. In 10-15 years, when CLE's debt is paid down, it'll likely begin to explore replacing its terminal complex (and that will probably include demolishing D).


At the rate CLE is paying debt down, it shouldn't take that long. I'd estimate the current debt at less than $700 million - they have paid off over $150 million since the dehubbing. The debt could easily be under $500 million in three or four more years.
 
corn4ahead
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:19 pm

masseybrown wrote:
compensateme wrote:
CLE is not in the same position as CVG and PIT -- both have significantly less debt, which enables them to take on capital projects more readily. In 10-15 years, when CLE's debt is paid down, it'll likely begin to explore replacing its terminal complex (and that will probably include demolishing D).


At the rate CLE is paying debt down, it shouldn't take that long. I'd estimate the current debt at less than $700 million - they have paid off over $150 million since the dehubbing. The debt could easily be under $500 million in three or four more years.


And it would go down faster if they were able to draw more carriers.

Regarding the cost of upkeep, I talked to someone in operations at the airport who said they keep the heat on in winter and the air on in summer. Granted, not to comfortable levels, but to keep the building from deteriorating.

I don't believe it would take much to get D up and running again.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 2462
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:33 pm

ncflyer wrote:
As far as UA is concerned I’m sure both parties could come to a negotiated settlement to shorten the lease terms for upfront money, the end of the lease I’d not that far away after all— and the amount owed has to be chump change to UA.


They did the opposite -- UA extended its leases throughout CLE via 2029 (when D will be paid off) in exchange for less upfront money (and the relinquishment of some real estate). UA's going to pay CLE a few hundred million during that time period -- not exactly "chump change."

CLE really doesn't have a reason to let UA buy itself out, anyway.

ncflyer wrote:
Putting together an updated master facility plan costs very little. That’s all that needs to happen now. Baby steps. No one can say whether it’s a billion dollar project like Pittsburgh— or something smaller or bigger. Waiting 10 to 15 years to do that is how a 1950s airport hits its 100th anniversary with an empty 50 year old building and no plan in place.


Master plans are generally nothing more than wishes and fantasies. Whatever new terminal complex was dreamed up today would be for the status quo. It's unlikely (to say the least) a new terminal complex would be built before 2029, and when it comes closer to being a reality, tenants will demand it incorporates cost saving features, like a minimal lobby (by 2029, the extent of our interaction we'll be dropping our pre RFID-tagged bags off) and a concourse designed for automated boarding procedures, which will heavily influence the footprint.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 2462
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:01 pm

corn4ahead wrote:
And it would go down faster if they were able to draw more carriers.


That's TBD. CLE's had two years of unprecedented growth -- 20%+ increase in enplanements in less than 2 year, unheard of for a mature market, and largely driven by low fares that aren't sustainable. I've written before that a market correction is likely, and now F9 is cutting nearly a third of its physical capacity right before the peak summer stretch.

Regarding the cost of upkeep, I talked to someone in operations at the airport who said they keep the heat on in winter and the air on in summer. Granted, not to comfortable levels, but to keep the building from deteriorating.

I don't believe it would take much to get D up and running again.


It's not R&M but configuration. The building was configured to handle ERJ & props (which would cost into the tens of millions to change to larger regional & mainline). Additionally, it'd require a new interior -- the current interior has small clusters of seats built around modular shops & eateries -- not exactly ideal when a 180-seat aircraft is parked there. I doubt there would be much shops/eateries if the building were filled out. Not really an improvement IMO...
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 796
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:21 pm

compensateme wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
They did the opposite -- UA extended its leases throughout CLE via 2029 (when D will be paid off) in exchange for less upfront money (and the relinquishment of some real estate). UA's going to pay CLE a few hundred million during that time period -- not exactly "chump change."


Several things have changed since that time. First off UA is consistently and hugely profitable, the merger is in the rearview mirror now. Secondly, the tax code has changed pretty dramatically. Third, I think CLE has a better sense of how it will be served by the airlines going forward.

On another note I think you're leaving out an important purpose of master facility plans, it's to mobilize public support for change. We have an organization in NEO that is doing a great job of mobilizing public support for a rebuild, and that's MetroHealth. They don't have a great bond rating at all (just looked it up, BBB-, horrible, I believe worse than the airport and City of Cleveland), yet they are starting to float a really excellent plan which the community is getting behind. They have an impressive leader intent on making it happen.

Then another purpose is to prioritize current investments in the existing plant. Should CLE invest a lot of money if D needs a new roof for example? How the heck would anyone decide right now?

NYT a few weeks back had a great article on the unprecedented airport building boom, it featured mostly SLC but it talked about the many other projects underway or recently completed. I'd like to think these projects, architects haver learned how to anticipate the sorts of technological changes you are mentioning.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 2462
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - 2018

Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:53 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Several things have changed since that time. First off UA is consistently and hugely profitable, the merger is in the rearview mirror now. Secondly, the tax code has changed pretty dramatically. Third, I think CLE has a better sense of how it will be served by the airlines going forward.


I'm confused as to why you believe CLE would be interested in acquiring D. As discussed previously, D would require tens of millions of dollars to convert it for large regional/mainline jet use, plus the installation of a new interior. Remember, D was conceived as a low-cost, barebones concourse designed to house 8 737 gates as a de facto extension of C; the decision to make D exclusively for regional jets & props enabled CO/CLE to install modular shops & eateries but those would disappear in a reconfiguration (it had about 600 seats and would need double that in a reconfiguration).

Ultimately, spending tens of millions on an upgraded D that's a long hike and lacks a selection of eateries just doesn't make much sense.

On another note I think you're leaving out an important purpose of master facility plans, it's to mobilize public support for change. We have an organization in NEO that is doing a great job of mobilizing public support for a rebuild, and that's MetroHealth. They don't have a great bond rating at all (just looked it up, BBB-, horrible, I believe worse than the airport and City of Cleveland), yet they are starting to float a really excellent plan which the community is getting behind. They have an impressive leader intent on making it happen.


I'm sure in the near future CLE will release an updated master plan that discusses, even if briefly, its plans for D and possible terminal redevelopment. The dehubbing and uncertainly is surely going to delay the updated master plan -- you keep comparing CLE to CVG & PIT, but it took CVG at least 6 years and PIT a decade to release their "life without a hub" plans.

I'm just giving my opinion on master plans. :cool2:

NYT a few weeks back had a great article on the unprecedented airport building boom, it featured mostly SLC but it talked about the many other projects underway or recently completed. I'd like to think these projects, architects haver learned how to anticipate the sorts of technological changes you are mentioning.


All projects are built for the needs of today with flexibility for the needs of tomorrow, but nothing's going to be built for a possible future, which was my point. Spending $1M+ creating a redidtion of future CLE concourses that will never be is just a silly waste of money.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 22

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos