^I should add, we haven't had 9.7m pax in a while--since 2009 when we had 9.715M pax, which was down from 11.1M the previous year.... In 2007 CLE had 11.5M pax.

Clipper2Heavy wrote:

Groyd wrote:

CLE will get EI over PIT...change my mind

I thnk CLE is better suited for the EI flight at the moment...considering the unknown KEF situation. If EI goes to CLE...I would hope it is more than seasonal.

I doubt that since CLE is having a hard time supporting a B737 and an A321 to KEF. Cleveland doesn't have same demand for European travel as PIT does. Since Pittsburgh has more international business than Cleveland does. Look at it like PHL and CLT. CLT has way more pax than PHL, but PHL has more international pax than CLT

GSA you write that Cleveland doesn't have same demand for European travel as PIT does? I'm curious what that is based on? CLE is so susceptible to international leakage to DTW, PIT, and YYZ, I can't begin to know how this is accounted for.

Personally, I think the two markets are so, so, so, so similar, and what differentiates the two is quality of the facilities/expansion plans, the aggressiveness of spending on incentives, and continuity of airport leadership. In passenger counts the two airports are now neck and neck now that neither has a hub. 2017 CLE was slightly bigger, 2018and 2019 looks like PIT might be slightly bigger. . . .

I don't necessarily disagree with you but then your point raises the next question-- if PIT has more demand to Europe, and the two airports are essentially the same size, where does CLE have more demand to?

ncflyer wrote:

I don't necessarily disagree with you but then your point raises the next question-- if PIT has more demand to Europe, and the two airports are essentially the same size, where does CLE have more demand to?

The west coast, especially California. And apparently MKE. Just compare the level of service from CLE to LAX/SFO vs that from PIT.

flyPIT wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

I don't necessarily disagree with you but then your point raises the next question-- if PIT has more demand to Europe, and the two airports are essentially the same size, where does CLE have more demand to?

The west coast, especially California. And apparently MKE. Just compare the level of service from CLE to LAX/SFO vs that from PIT.

Is PIT's demand for the west coast higher than CLE's?

CLEdiscussions wrote:

Is PIT's demand for the west coast higher than CLE's?

I wouldn’t think so based on the greater service available from CLE. That’s what I was trying to say.

flyPIT wrote:

CLEdiscussions wrote:

Is PIT's demand for the west coast higher than CLE's?

I wouldn’t think so based on the greater service available from CLE. That’s what I was trying to say.

Greater service how so? I did a quick check of 4 west coast cities on Friday, and it looks pretty dead even, CLE has 1 more LAX flight, but PIT has nonstop access to SEA & SAN (ignores if it's seasonal or DOW specific):

To LAX:
PIT: 2 Flights (1x WN, 1x NK)
CLE: 3 flights (1x NK, 2x UA)

To SFO:
PIT: 2 Flight (2x UAL)
CLE: 2 flights (2x UAL)

To SEA:
PIT: 1 Flight (1x AS)
CLE: 0 Flights

To SAN: 1 flight
PIT: 1 Flight (1x f9)
CLE: 0 flights

HPAEAA wrote:

flyPIT wrote:

CLEdiscussions wrote:

Is PIT's demand for the west coast higher than CLE's?

I wouldn’t think so based on the greater service available from CLE. That’s what I was trying to say.

Greater service how so? I did a quick check of 4 west coast cities on Friday, and it looks pretty dead even, CLE has 1 more LAX flight, but PIT has nonstop access to SEA & SAN (ignores if it's seasonal or DOW specific):

To LAX:
PIT: 2 Flights (1x WN, 1x NK)
CLE: 3 flights (1x NK, 2x UA)

To SFO:
PIT: 2 Flight (2x UAL)
CLE: 2 flights (2x UAL)

To SEA:
PIT: 1 Flight (1x AS)
CLE: 0 Flights

To SAN: 1 flight
PIT: 1 Flight (1x f9)
CLE: 0 flights

I guess I haven’t been paying attention. I didnt realize F9 dropped all their CLE- west coast flying.

flyPIT wrote:

HPAEAA wrote:

flyPIT wrote:

I wouldn’t think so based on the greater service available from CLE. That’s what I was trying to say.

Greater service how so? I did a quick check of 4 west coast cities on Friday, and it looks pretty dead even, CLE has 1 more LAX flight, but PIT has nonstop access to SEA & SAN (ignores if it's seasonal or DOW specific):

To LAX:
PIT: 2 Flights (1x WN, 1x NK)
CLE: 3 flights (1x NK, 2x UA)

To SFO:
PIT: 2 Flight (2x UAL)
CLE: 2 flights (2x UAL)

To SEA:
PIT: 1 Flight (1x AS)
CLE: 0 Flights

To SAN: 1 flight
PIT: 1 Flight (1x f9)
CLE: 0 flights

I guess I haven’t been paying attention. I didnt realize F9 dropped all their CLE- west coast flying.

F9 did not drop all CLE-west coast flying, they restarted CLE-SAN flights this summer, so actually:

To SAN:
PIT: 1 Flight (2x weekly)
CLE: 1 Flight (2x weekly)

Yes, CLE-SAN is seasonal and PIT-SAN is not, but it CLE-SAN should still be counted as a flight I think.

Geowizical wrote:

flyPIT wrote:

HPAEAA wrote:

Greater service how so? I did a quick check of 4 west coast cities on Friday, and it looks pretty dead even, CLE has 1 more LAX flight, but PIT has nonstop access to SEA & SAN (ignores if it's seasonal or DOW specific):

To LAX:
PIT: 2 Flights (1x WN, 1x NK)
CLE: 3 flights (1x NK, 2x UA)

To SFO:
PIT: 2 Flight (2x UAL)
CLE: 2 flights (2x UAL)

To SEA:
PIT: 1 Flight (1x AS)
CLE: 0 Flights

To SAN: 1 flight
PIT: 1 Flight (1x f9)
CLE: 0 flights

I guess I haven’t been paying attention. I didnt realize F9 dropped all their CLE- west coast flying.

F9 did not drop all CLE-west coast flying, they restarted CLE-SAN flights this summer, so actually:

To SAN:
PIT: 1 Flight (2x weekly)
CLE: 1 Flight (2x weekly)

Yes, CLE-SAN is seasonal and PIT-SAN is not, but it CLE-SAN should still be counted as a flight I think.

True worth noting seasonal I suppose, would also through out a few other west coast inland hubs for further comparison... Granted non of this includes transit passengers.

To SLC:
PIT: 1 flight (1x DL)
CLE: 1 flight (1x DL)

To PHX:
PIT: 3 Flights (1x WN, 2x AA)
CLE: 1 flight (1x WN)

To LAS:
PIT: 3 Flights (2x WN, 1x NK)
CLE: 3 Flights (1x WN, 1x NK, 1x F9)

^Agreed. I'm honestly pretty confused as to the lack of CLE-PHX service. Even with the F9 3x week seasonal flight CLE-PHX, there is still a large gap in service compared to PIT, CMH, IND.
Is there any reason why AA doesn't serve CLE but does serve PIT, CMH, and IND? Being an AA hub and all, it doesn't really make sense.

Geowizical wrote:

^Agreed. I'm honestly pretty confused as to the lack of CLE-PHX service. Even with the F9 3x week seasonal flight CLE-PHX, there is still a large gap in service compared to PIT, CMH, IND.
Is there any reason why AA doesn't serve CLE but does serve PIT, CMH, and IND? Being an AA hub and all, it doesn't really make sense.

CVG has the same issue. We have DL on CVG-PHX once a day plus seasonal 1-2x/wk on WN/G4 (which is comparable to F9’s service at CLE). Seems like AA should be able to make PHX-CLE/CVG work.

Oh! I forgot about G4 to AZA. I know G4 flies CVG-AZA, but when I saw that Allegiant presser about suspending CLE routes due to "aircraft shortages", including CLE-AZA, I was confused because I've not seen any flights to AZA from CLE in recent history. Does CLE-AZA still exist, or was the Allegiant suspension news just false reporting with old route information?

Geowizical wrote:

^Agreed. I'm honestly pretty confused as to the lack of CLE-PHX service. Even with the F9 3x week seasonal flight CLE-PHX, there is still a large gap in service compared to PIT, CMH, IND.
Is there any reason why AA doesn't serve CLE but does serve PIT, CMH, and IND? Being an AA hub and all, it doesn't really make sense.

PIT and CMH are both airports that were former hubs for airlines absorbed by AA (US and AmWest). So there is some legacy AA connection there. IND (while a quasi unofficial DL focus city) is not as legacy rooted to DL as CVG, or as legacy rooted to UA as CLE is.

Geowizical wrote:

Oh! I forgot about G4 to AZA. I know G4 flies CVG-AZA, but when I saw that Allegiant presser about suspending CLE routes due to "aircraft shortages", including CLE-AZA, I was confused because I've not seen any flights to AZA from CLE in recent history. Does CLE-AZA still exist, or was the Allegiant suspension news just false reporting with old route information?

https://www.allegiantair.com/interactive-routemap

It still shows up on the route map but it is a dotted line which means it's not active as of right now.

Geowizical wrote:

Does CLE-AZA still exist, or was the Allegiant suspension news just false reporting with old route information?

Who knows? G4 started CLE-AZA during winter 2017 when they 1st opened CLE and not since.

2-3 years ago AA dropped CLE-PHX (about 2x daily on A319s/320s) as Southwest and Frontier expanded the route, but since then they've gone once-daily (WN) and seasonal (F9).

Groyd wrote:

2-3 years ago AA dropped CLE-PHX (about 2x daily on A319s/320s) as Southwest and Frontier expanded the route, but since then they've gone once-daily (WN) and seasonal (F9).

Same can be said for UA when they used to have 2-3 daily.

The market is currently underserved and most likely funneled through DEN/SLC/etc. like me next month.

DoT put out June numbers on Friday. JetBlue and Southwest are worth commenting on.

Columns are for June 18 and June 17

Jet Blue
Boardings 12,059 11,897
Dep flights ..117 ... 117
Load Factor 90.92% .. 89.0%

91% L/F means lots of flights are departing full but B6 probably can't do much to increase service because of fleet limitations. Their only deliveries (through 2019) are A321s at a rate of about one per month. Expansion elsewhere has probably spoken for all these frames. Maybe they could route an A320 BOS-CLE-FLL and back; that's about the only way to increase BOS seats without pulling from another route.

Southwest
Boardings 76,560 ... 68,391 up 11.9%
Dep. flights ..611 ... 576 ... up 6.07%
Load Factor 88.73% .. 87.6% .. up 1.3%
RPMs ....... 48.9 ...45.5 ... up 7.4%

Southwest seems to fill all the capacity it adds in CLE. Since pax went up faster than RPMs, maybe they will add another western "hub" flight next summer. Now that they have whipped Kansas City into building them a better terminal, maybe they will forget about their MCI embargo and add a CLE-MCI next summer. Personally, I think that "embargo" was why Kennedy's prediction of CLE-MCI never happened.

fun2fly wrote:

The market is currently underserved and most likely funneled through DEN/SLC/etc. like me next month.

Well, AA might possibly have Midwest expansion in mind at PHX, since they just announced PHX-MSN (CRJ9) and PHX-GRR (A319). I feel like WN could also make a second daily flight work.

I wish I understood why CLE seems to be so far down the pecking order for WN. Massey's stats say CLE is delivering the traffic, the gates are available. . . . yet the service really lags CMH, IND, PIT, MCI. . . there's no obvious reason for that.

ncflyer wrote:

I wish I understood why CLE seems to be so far down the pecking order for WN. Massey's stats say CLE is delivering the traffic, the gates are available. . . . yet the service really lags CMH, IND, PIT, MCI. . . there's no obvious reason for that.

Yet CLE is busier than all those except MCI so the service already exists on other carriers, notable the strong ULCC presence. MCI is a large focus city for WN and the city is more dependent on air transportation due to its remoteness.

flyPIT wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

I wish I understood why CLE seems to be so far down the pecking order for WN. Massey's stats say CLE is delivering the traffic, the gates are available. . . . yet the service really lags CMH, IND, PIT, MCI. . . there's no obvious reason for that.

Yet CLE is busier than all those except MCI so the service already exists on other carriers, notable the strong ULCC presence. MCI is a large focus city for WN and the city is more dependent on air transportation due to its remoteness.

I flew WN from MCI last month. The flights are perfectly timed to connect to/from MCI so I bet they are getting a lot of that traffic. UA/AA at ORD don't have real good connections, same for DTW. Actually, the IAD connections are better than ORD last time I went. I think MCI is one of those markets that really notes what is lacking at UA on frequency.

The "city" boards are full of it, so I guess it's worth mentioning here. The city officially grew by 114,520 people, at least as the Census Bureau and OMB define CSAs. The Cleveland CSA now includes Wayne County and numbers 3,600,211, so the airport's claim of a 4 million person catchment isn't much of a stretch.

Where is the evidence that it now includes Wayne County, give us the website please. CSA are not good indicators of an airports potential because it can include multiple airports, as well as multiple MSA, that's why Airlines focus more on MSA. As an example look at L.A, a huge CSA but you have Burbank, Ontario, Long Beach, San Bernadino, all smaller airports but still relevant, so the lines are very blurred. No CLE catchment area is more comparable to PIT, CVG,IND, and CMH, and the passenger numbers reflect that.

marvinanderson1 wrote:

Where is the evidence that it now includes Wayne County, give us the website please. CSA are not good indicators of an airports potential because it can include multiple airports, as well as multiple MSA, that's why Airlines focus more on MSA. As an example look at L.A, a huge CSA but you have Burbank, Ontario, Long Beach, San Bernadino, all smaller airports but still relevant, so the lines are very blurred. No CLE catchment area is more comparable to PIT, CVG,IND, and CMH, and the passenger numbers reflect that.

This thread isn’t interested in what’s actually a good indicator of anything. The SOP is simply to quote whatever number seems the most impressive, however irrelevent it may actually be, then whine as loudly as possible when airlines pick other cities to add service to. Another popular tactic is to simply lie.

The running narrative is basically that CLE is always getting hosed by the universe. It’s not that Airport X got the service instead of CLE because the metrics the airlines actually care about are better there, but rather it’s “unbelievable” that they ignored the irrelevent metrics often cited here and simply chose Airport X to personally spite Cleveland. City leaders and sports teams also like to subscribe to versions of this narrative; it’s basically cultural.

marvinanderson1 wrote:

Where is the evidence that it now includes Wayne County, give us the website please. ...... No CLE catchment area is more comparable to PIT, CVG,IND, and CMH, and the passenger numbers reflect that.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/u ... -18-04.pdf

I have no idea what that second sentence means. IND is the largest of the group, closely followed by CLE, which is closely followed by PIT.

marvinanderson1 wrote:

Where is the evidence that it now includes Wayne County, give us the website please. CSA are not good indicators of an airports potential because it can include multiple airports, as well as multiple MSA, that's why Airlines focus more on MSA. As an example look at L.A, a huge CSA but you have Burbank, Ontario, Long Beach, San Bernadino, all smaller airports but still relevant, so the lines are very blurred.....

Entirely untrue. CSAs are better indicators than MSAs for a the catchment size of a market. Take Cleveland as an example. By your approach, people who 20-25 minutes away from Hopkins in Summit County should not be part of CLE because they are in the Akron MSA; meanwhile the Akron MSA lacks a major airport, as does the Masfield, OH MSA or Youngstown, OH MSA. CAK is not a comparable airport to CLE just as Burbank and Ontario, Long Beach, etc. are not comparable to LAX. Only when a second/third airport is comparable or significant (like EWR, LGA, and JFK in NYC) does that impact an airline's decision, but it doesn't change the size of the market which is based on population and businesses in a particular geography.

N766UA wrote:

The running narrative is basically that CLE is always getting hosed by the universe.

You're close. The fact is Clevelanders are desperate for the population decline to turn around. It's close; last year the MSA decline was less than the murder and OD death rate. So while the addition of Wayne County (by a stroke of somebody's pen) is grasping at straws, we'll take it pending something better.

Global warming + sunbelt = actual rust belt & CLE renaissance

greenair727 wrote:

marvinanderson1 wrote:

Where is the evidence that it now includes Wayne County, give us the website please. CSA are not good indicators of an airports potential because it can include multiple airports, as well as multiple MSA, that's why Airlines focus more on MSA. As an example look at L.A, a huge CSA but you have Burbank, Ontario, Long Beach, San Bernadino, all smaller airports but still relevant, so the lines are very blurred.....

Entirely untrue. CSAs are better indicators than MSAs for a the catchment size of a market. Take Cleveland as an example. By your approach, people who 20-25 minutes away from Hopkins in Summit County should not be part of CLE because they are in the Akron MSA; meanwhile the Akron MSA lacks a major airport, as does the Masfield, OH MSA or Youngstown, OH MSA. CAK is not a comparable airport to CLE just as Burbank and Ontario, Long Beach, etc. are not comparable to LAX. Only when a second/third airport is comparable or significant (like EWR, LGA, and JFK in NYC) does that impact an airline's decision, but it doesn't change the size of the market which is based on population and businesses in a particular geography.

By the same token CAK is very important to them that uses it, plus has good potential. Why Clevelanders have such an inferiority complex is beyond me. Quit trying to find metrics that support your narratives. In my opinion CLE is not a major airport, but an intermediate sized airport, which is fine. But the CLE airport will never be more than that because of its aesthetics, and it location, and continual drip drop loss of population in its immediate Metro Area. Many of those who live south of CLE will either use CAK or not fly at all, that is the dilemma.

marvinanderson1 wrote:

Why Clevelanders have such an inferiority complex is beyond me. Quit trying to find metrics that support your narratives.

Immature, gross generalizations not needed in this forum.

Anyone know what this could be? Looks like the airport is constructing something outdoors in conjunction with Destination Cleveland.

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... 2781841408

SgtBarone wrote:

marvinanderson1 wrote:

Why Clevelanders have such an inferiority complex is beyond me. Quit trying to find metrics that support your narratives.

Immature, gross generalizations not needed in this forum.

Neither is immature, gross generalizations, and minimizing of other Airports and regions. Last thing I will say is on this forum if you take away immature gross generalizations , what else do you have. Sorry the truth hurts, why don't we just highlight the positives of every airport, that includes PIT, CVG, CMH,IND and all other airports.

SgtBarone wrote:

Anyone know what this could be? Looks like the airport is constructing something outdoors in conjunction with Destination Cleveland.

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... 2781841408

Something to do with shuttle pickup/drop off? I don't know what that would have to do with Destination Cleveland though. Maybe a random park?

SgtBarone wrote:

Anyone know what this could be? Looks like the airport is constructing something outdoors in conjunction with Destination Cleveland.

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... 2781841408

Mural?

Jshank83 wrote:

SgtBarone wrote:

Anyone know what this could be? Looks like the airport is constructing something outdoors in conjunction with Destination Cleveland.

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... 2781841408

Mural?

Indeed. http://www.crainscleveland.com/governme ... -landscape

Geowizical wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

SgtBarone wrote:

Anyone know what this could be? Looks like the airport is constructing something outdoors in conjunction with Destination Cleveland.

https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... 2781841408

Mural?

Indeed. http://www.crainscleveland.com/governme ... -landscape

The mural will be welcome - artwork or design elements are always better than a plain concrete wall.

Will WN announce any new nonstop routes out of CLE in its upcoming schedule extension next week? WN will be extending its schedule to June 8, 2019 in next week's schedule extension, and WN has already said that it was considering adding nonstop service to at least FLL and HOU out of CLE.

jplatts wrote:

Will WN announce any new nonstop routes out of CLE in its upcoming schedule extension next week? WN will be extending its schedule to June 8, 2019 in next week's schedule extension, and WN has already said that it was considering adding nonstop service to at least FLL and HOU out of CLE.

It's possible, however, in my opinion, kind of unlikely, since they just added CLE-TPA in the last schedule extension. Still, keeping my hopes up that someday we'll get HOU, or even MCI.

SgtBarone wrote:

marvinanderson1 wrote:

Why Clevelanders have such an inferiority complex is beyond me. Quit trying to find metrics that support your narratives.

Immature, gross generalizations not needed in this forum.

And strangely enough these kinds of denigrating comments come from people in big market areas with an abundance of air service.

There is an interesting comment in the JetBlue System thread: namely that B6 is looking hard at axing 6-8 cities soon. Cutting cities may be what they have to do to increase service in their other smallish points. CLE fans can easily come up with where they could put a few more flights, but does B6 think the same way? Dunno.

They are having an investors' day on Oct 2; it could be interesting.

masseybrown wrote:

There is an interesting comment in the JetBlue System thread: namely that B6 is looking hard at axing 6-8 cities soon. Cutting cities may be what they have to do to increase service in their other smallish points. CLE fans can easily come up with where they could put a few more flights, but does B6 think the same way? Dunno.

They are having an investors' day on Oct 2; it could be interesting.

Are the cities axed going to be small markets or medium sized markets like CLE? CLE, and similarly PIT, seem to be smaller markets for B6 in terms of flights/per day and destinations they offer (only BOS and FLL for both), even though both in general are larger markets than many of cities in B6's network. Hopefully they cut cities with smaller population/demand and increase seats in medium-sized airports like CLE.

CLE-SJU, CLE-JFK, CLE-LGB (unlikely), would all be nice adds.

WN's schedule release has been pushed back to November.

swacle wrote:

WN's schedule release has been pushed back to November.

The WN flight schedules page (which can be found at https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-schedules/index.html?clk=GSUBNAV-AIR-SCHEDULES) still says that "We are currently accepting air reservations through April 7, 2019. On September 27, 2018 we will open our schedule for sale through June 8, 2019. This date is subject to change! Please check back frequently."

SgtBarone wrote:

marvinanderson1 wrote:

Why Clevelanders have such an inferiority complex is beyond me. Quit trying to find metrics that support your narratives.

Immature, gross generalizations not needed in this forum.

Having grown up in Cleveland, it’s actually kind of spot on. Clevelanders are also extremely defensive. When I came home and said “wow, you guys really have accents I never noticed before!” the universal response was “WE DO NOT!!” Your response even backs up my point about defensiveness.

It’s one of Cleveland’s least flattering qualities, the defensiveness and the inferiority complex, and I like to point it out and assert it’s unneccessary. Cleveland’s an average mid-size city. It’s lucky to have a lot of the service it has and doesn’t neccessarily *deserve* more. Clevelanders need to appreciate what they have but also accept they live in a place that, while pleasant enough, isn’t going to be on any “top destination” lists. It’s one thing to root for your airport, but it’s another to be outraged at others when they get the service you wanted.

Groyd wrote:

Global warming + sunbelt = actual rust belt & CLE renaissance

Every year the government says the Southwest will run out of water the following year. Maybe one day it actually will, stopping the Midwestern population decline. As it is, Millenials $&!#* about the high cost of housing along the coasts, but that doesn’t stop them from moving there...

jplatts wrote:

swacle wrote:

WN's schedule release has been pushed back to November.

The WN flight schedules page (which can be found at https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-schedules/index.html?clk=GSUBNAV-AIR-SCHEDULES) still says that "We are currently accepting air reservations through April 7, 2019. On September 27, 2018 we will open our schedule for sale through June 8, 2019. This date is subject to change! Please check back frequently."

I stand corrected. It was initially September 27th but was quickly pushed back to November 14th. Sometime over the course of the last couple weeks it was moved back to September 27th.

compensateme wrote:

Groyd wrote:

Global warming + sunbelt = actual rust belt & CLE renaissance

Every year the government says the Southwest will run out of water the following year. Maybe one day it actually will, stopping the Midwestern population decline. As it is, Millenials $&!#* about the high cost of housing along the coasts, but that doesn’t stop them from moving there...

klm617 wrote:

And strangely enough these kinds of denigrating comments come from people in big market areas with an abundance of air service.

Looks like we don't have much positive air service adjustments looming soon lol

N766UA wrote:

Clevelanders are also extremely defensive .... It’s one of Cleveland’s least flattering qualities, the defensiveness and the inferiority complex, and I like to point it out and assert it’s unneccessary.

I think things are changing. Last time I was there I met a few people who are in charge of a few things and I got a different feel. The goals and benchmarks were very much "Are we doing better than we were doing last year?" - not "Are we better than better or worse than city X?"

Back to aviation ... the mystery A330 parked at the airport is apparently privately owned and operated by HongKongJet - the Governor of Hunan Province is at the Clinic.