FWAERJ wrote:

stlgph wrote:

About 10, 15 years ago or so I remember IND to MCO and LAS being in the 1,000 range then it just kind of took a tumble as people started discovering other destinations and there were less choices for travel.

In the case of IND-MCO, much of the pax came from the FWA and CVG areas. IND even ran ads in CVG at one point because so many drove to IND from
Cincinnati to get away from then-astronomical CVG pricing.

After both FWA and IND got G4 to SFB and CVG became a ULCC haven instead of a DL fortress, IND-MCO saw fewer pax.

You also have to remember that average fares on IND-MCO were significantly cheaper back then. ATA and AirTran kept average fares extremely low. Last year's peak season, avg fares on IND-MCO were ~$160 (hence the reason DL is in the market), back in 2004 the avg fare was $89 for Q3......

There is still bleed from FWA (plus SDF/LAF/CMI/e.tc) to IND but it is likely not what it was in the past. I doubt there is any bleed from CVG to IND anymore.

Midwestindy wrote:

From the Earnings Call transcript:

Operator

Next, we will go to Helane Becker with Cowen and Company.

Helane Becker

Thanks very much operator. Hi guys. Thank you very much for taking the question. So I think you mentioned that, for an example, you were adding Indianapolis to Europe service. Is that a connection? Is it really about connecting Indianapolis traffic with other points in Europe as opposed to point-to-point and instead of over hubs in New York and Detroit? And B, should we think about opportunity for you in that small or medium size city to Amsterdam and Paris and to some extent London going forward?

Glen Hauenstein

Helane, a great question and I think that really is the point is that when we fly from Indianapolis to Paris, we are not just flying from Indy to Paris, we are flying from Indianapolis to Paris connecting to all of Europe and then really connecting Asia and Africa through Paris. So we would never contemplate flying from Indianapolis to Paris if it were two endpoints on our network, but really given the strength of the frequent flyer base and the loyalty we have in Indianapolis and the amount of traffic that's continuing on to those destinations beyond Paris, that's where we have really added over the past years, using our partner hubs. Really exciting for the results too. Indianapolis to Paris is doing quite well in its first year of operation.

We also added Orlando to Amsterdam. That's also doing quite well. And Los Angeles to both Paris and Amsterdam. Interesting factoid is, of the three major U.S. carriers in Los Angeles, we were the only one that did not have nonstop European service on our own metal. So we added that this year and that's doing really well as well.

So I would say there is a good chance that we could see an increase in frequency/equipment next year.

What does he mean by increased frequency/equipment? Does he mean new TATL flights from new cities or upgauging capacity on these new routes?

jplatts wrote:

Will DL ever bring back IND-DFW nonstop service? DL used to serve DFW nonstop from IND back when DL had a hub at DFW, and DL could bring back IND-DFW nonstop service if it is planning on adding nonstop service to non-DL hub destinations from IND.

Doubtful, AA has that route locked up and are upguaging, plus WN flies IND-DAL so there isn't that much room for DL. It isn't that important of a route for any of the major IND companies either.

ADrum23 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

From the Earnings Call transcript:

Operator

Next, we will go to Helane Becker with Cowen and Company.

Helane Becker

Thanks very much operator. Hi guys. Thank you very much for taking the question. So I think you mentioned that, for an example, you were adding Indianapolis to Europe service. Is that a connection? Is it really about connecting Indianapolis traffic with other points in Europe as opposed to point-to-point and instead of over hubs in New York and Detroit? And B, should we think about opportunity for you in that small or medium size city to Amsterdam and Paris and to some extent London going forward?

Glen Hauenstein

Helane, a great question and I think that really is the point is that when we fly from Indianapolis to Paris, we are not just flying from Indy to Paris, we are flying from Indianapolis to Paris connecting to all of Europe and then really connecting Asia and Africa through Paris. So we would never contemplate flying from Indianapolis to Paris if it were two endpoints on our network, but really given the strength of the frequent flyer base and the loyalty we have in Indianapolis and the amount of traffic that's continuing on to those destinations beyond Paris, that's where we have really added over the past years, using our partner hubs. Really exciting for the results too. Indianapolis to Paris is doing quite well in its first year of operation.

We also added Orlando to Amsterdam. That's also doing quite well. And Los Angeles to both Paris and Amsterdam. Interesting factoid is, of the three major U.S. carriers in Los Angeles, we were the only one that did not have nonstop European service on our own metal. So we added that this year and that's doing really well as well."

So I would say there is a good chance that we could see an increase in frequency/equipment next year.

What does he mean by increased frequency/equipment? Does he mean new TATL flights from new cities or upgauging capacity on these new routes?

Oops, that was my interpretation of what he was saying, not a part of the actual conference call.

Midwestindy wrote:

FWAERJ wrote:

stlgph wrote:

About 10, 15 years ago or so I remember IND to MCO and LAS being in the 1,000 range then it just kind of took a tumble as people started discovering other destinations and there were less choices for travel.

In the case of IND-MCO, much of the pax came from the FWA and CVG areas. IND even ran ads in CVG at one point because so many drove to IND from
Cincinnati to get away from then-astronomical CVG pricing.

After both FWA and IND got G4 to SFB and CVG became a ULCC haven instead of a DL fortress, IND-MCO saw fewer pax.

There is still bleed from FWA (plus SDF/LAF/CMI/e.tc) to IND but it is likely not what it was in the past. I doubt there is any bleed from CVG to IND anymore.

True about FWA bleed and it being less than before. In 2006 after ATA left, FWA only kept 35% of its market. IND had two thirds of the bleed to other airports and was the market leader. Today, IND is still the most popular alternate airport here, but 65% of the Fort Wayne market uses FWA now. In addition, G4 hasn't seen impact to its FWA LFs from their IND service, and actually flies 186-seat new-build A320s to SFB and PGD from FWA.

CMI probably sees a lot of bleed due to the lack of a ULCC. SDF probably doesn't see much. LAF hasn't seen a scheduled pax flight in thirteen years, but Purdue University officials want one now with companies in the area like GE, Wabash National, and Subaru willing to pay a premium to quit driving to IND.

Here are the LFs for April, you will notice a disparity between inbound and outbound LFs due to Spring Break
DL IND-MCO 76.76%; MCO-IND 82.06%
-Pax Grew by 40.4%
DL IND-BOS 84.49%; BOS-IND 87.4%
-Pax Grew 23.46%
DL IND-JFK 68.83%; JFK-IND 68.3%
-Pax Grew 70.71%
DL IND-DTW 64.01%; DTW-IND 70.14%
DL IND-MSP 84.00%; MSP-IND 85.2%
DL IND-ATL 81.04%; ATL-IND 84.5%
DL IND-LAX 75.45%; LAX-IND 80.9%
DL IND-RSW 85.53%; RSW-IND 100%
DL IND-RDU 71.81%; RDU-IND 72.7%
DL IND-SLC 76.22%; SLC-IND 86.4%

AA IND-DCA 87.67%; DCA-IND 86.58%
-Pax Grew 20%
AA IND-PHX 79.02%; PHX-IND 88.87%
AA IND-DFW 79.8%; DFW-IND 89.74%
AA IND-LAX 73.5%; LAX-IND 88.0%
-Pax Grew 70.6%
AA IND-CLT 81.8%; CLT-IND 88.8%
-Pax Grew 19.6%
AA IND-JFK 69.6%; JFK-IND 76.79%
AA IND-PHL 74.19%; PHL-IND 80.62%
AA IND-MIA 70.36%; MIA-IND 82.03%

AS IND-SEA 81.5%; SEA-IND 90.1%
AS IND-SFO 79.3%; SFO-IND-75.1%

UA IND-IAH 87.25%; IAH-IND 88%
UA IND-EWR 85.74%; EWR-IND 86.82%
UA IND-IAD 89.70%; IAD-IND 90.87%
UA IND-DEN 91.07%; DEN-IND 89.34%
UA IND-SFO 75.51%; SFO-IND-87.6%

*WN IND-AUS 72.03%; AUS-IND-92.57%
*WN IND-BOS 68.01%; BOS-IND 79.1%
*WN IND-EWR 54.04%; EWR-IND 58.14%`
WN IND-BWI 80.93%; BWI-IND 80.77%
WN FLL-IND 87.9%; IND-FLL-71.38%
WN DAL-IND 89.01%; IND-DAL 85.19%
WN ATL-IND 83.8%; IND-ATL 78.33%
WN DEN-IND 87.6% IND-DEN 79.17%
WN HOU-IND 85.8%; IND-HOU 75.75%
WN LAS-IND 82.3%; IND-LAS 83.2%
WN LAX-IND 85.78%; IND-LAX 80.64%
WN MCI-IND 78.11%; IND-MCI 68.4%
WN MCO-IND 91.32%; IND-MCO 80.6%
WN MDW-IND 72.66%; IND-MDW 70.98%
WN MSY-IND 92.1%; IND-MSY 50.9%
WN PHX-IND 84.33%; IND-PHX 79.48%
WN RSW-IND 96.33%; IND-RSW 77.97%
WN TPA-IND 86.77%; IND-TPA 79.59%

G4 IND-AUS 78.56%; AUS-IND-86.75%
*G4 IND-SRQ 84.4%; SRQ-IND-91.77%
*G4 IND-CHS 75.56%; CHS-IND-78.5%
G4 LAS-IND 90.33%; IND-LAS 85.5%
G4 JAX-IND 85.8%; IND-JAX 69.5%
G4 MSY-IND 82.8%; IND-MSY 78.4%
*G4 MYR-IND 67.1%; IND-MYR 71.2% Looks like IND-CHS may be hurting IND-MYR
G4 PGD-IND 97.02%; IND-PGD 77.17%
G4 PIE-IND 95.9%; IND-PIE 82.2%
G4 SAV-IND 85.36%; IND-SAV 81.4%
G4 SFB-IND 90.06%; IND-SFB 75.09%
G4 VPS-IND 76.02%; IND-VPS 70.28%
G4 FLL-IND 91.92%; IND-FLL 75.6%

*F9 IND-AUS 72.4%; AUS-IND 62.4%
F9 IND-TPA 84.1%; TPA-IND 98.52%
*F9 IND-PHL 72.14%; PHL-IND 81.4%
F9 IND-RSW 82%; RSW-IND 94.4%
F9 IND-MCO 74.4%; MCO-IND 97.39%
F9 IND-LAS 81.77%; LAS-IND 83.26%
F9 IND-DEN 82.23%; DEN-IND 92.02%

Midwestindy wrote:

Here are the LFs for April, you will notice a disparity between inbound and outbound LFs due to Spring Break
DL IND-MCO 76.76%; MCO-IND 82.06%
-Pax Grew by 40.4%
DL IND-BOS 84.49%; BOS-IND 87.4%
-Pax Grew 23.46%
DL IND-JFK 68.83%; JFK-IND 68.3%
-Pax Grew 70.71%
DL IND-DTW 64.01%; DTW-IND 70.14%
DL IND-MSP 84.00%; MSP-IND 85.2%
DL IND-ATL 81.04%; ATL-IND 84.5%
DL IND-LAX 75.45%; LAX-IND 80.9%
DL IND-RSW 85.53%; RSW-IND 100%
DL IND-RDU 71.81%; RDU-IND 72.7%
DL IND-SLC 76.22%; SLC-IND 86.4%

AA IND-DCA 87.67%; DCA-IND 86.58%
-Pax Grew 20%
AA IND-PHX 79.02%; PHX-IND 88.87%
AA IND-DFW 79.8%; DFW-IND 89.74%
AA IND-LAX 73.5%; LAX-IND 88.0%
-Pax Grew 70.6%
AA IND-CLT 81.8%; CLT-IND 88.8%
-Pax Grew 19.6%
AA IND-JFK 69.6%; JFK-IND 76.79%
AA IND-PHL 74.19%; PHL-IND 80.62%
AA IND-MIA 70.36%; MIA-IND 82.03%

AS IND-SEA 81.5%; SEA-IND 90.1%
AS IND-SFO 79.3%; SFO-IND-75.1%

UA IND-IAH 87.25%; IAH-IND 88%
UA IND-EWR 85.74%; EWR-IND 86.82%
UA IND-IAD 89.70%; IAD-IND 90.87%
UA IND-DEN 91.07%; DEN-IND 89.34%
UA IND-SFO 75.51%; SFO-IND-87.6%

*WN IND-AUS 72.03%; AUS-IND-92.57%
*WN IND-BOS 68.01%; BOS-IND 79.1%
*WN IND-EWR 54.04%; EWR-IND 58.14%`
WN IND-BWI 80.93%; BWI-IND 80.77%
WN FLL-IND 87.9%; IND-FLL-71.38%
WN DAL-IND 89.01%; IND-DAL 85.19%
WN ATL-IND 83.8%; IND-ATL 78.33%
WN DEN-IND 87.6% IND-DEN 79.17%
WN HOU-IND 85.8%; IND-HOU 75.75%
WN LAS-IND 82.3%; IND-LAS 83.2%
WN LAX-IND 85.78%; IND-LAX 80.64%
WN MCI-IND 78.11%; IND-MCI 68.4%
WN MCO-IND 91.32%; IND-MCO 80.6%
WN MDW-IND 72.66%; IND-MDW 70.98%
WN MSY-IND 92.1%; IND-MSY 50.9%
WN PHX-IND 84.33%; IND-PHX 79.48%
WN RSW-IND 96.33%; IND-RSW 77.97%
WN TPA-IND 86.77%; IND-TPA 79.59%

G4 IND-AUS 78.56%; AUS-IND-86.75%
*G4 IND-SRQ 84.4%; SRQ-IND-91.77%
*G4 IND-CHS 75.56%; CHS-IND-78.5%
G4 LAS-IND 90.33%; IND-LAS 85.5%
G4 JAX-IND 85.8%; IND-JAX 69.5%
G4 MSY-IND 82.8%; IND-MSY 78.4%
*G4 MYR-IND 67.1%; IND-MYR 71.2% Looks like IND-CHS may be hurting IND-MYR
G4 PGD-IND 97.02%; IND-PGD 77.17%
G4 PIE-IND 95.9%; IND-PIE 82.2%
G4 SAV-IND 85.36%; IND-SAV 81.4%
G4 SFB-IND 90.06%; IND-SFB 75.09%
G4 VPS-IND 76.02%; IND-VPS 70.28%
G4 FLL-IND 91.92%; IND-FLL 75.6%

*F9 IND-AUS 72.4%; AUS-IND 62.4%
F9 IND-TPA 84.1%; TPA-IND 98.52%
*F9 IND-PHL 72.14%; PHL-IND 81.4%
F9 IND-RSW 82%; RSW-IND 94.4%
F9 IND-MCO 74.4%; MCO-IND 97.39%
F9 IND-LAS 81.77%; LAS-IND 83.26%
F9 IND-DEN 82.23%; DEN-IND 92.02%

I think the big thing we have to keep in mind is a lot of those seasonal routes literally just got started for the year in April. The question would be will IND-MYR numbers improve come May/June? Personally, I wouldn't want to go to PHL (F9), AUS (F9/G4), MYR (G4), or CHS (G4) in April. I'd book for May/June/July, so I say before suggesting anything wait for those months data come come out so that we can analyze the big picture. The bulk travel is within the summer months anyway.

I get April is spring break but it's only two weeks. Summer is much longer and the tourism draw is much stronger in those months. Also, those two weeks are subjective as people's schedules are different.

WN starts IND-OAK today. N8634A is the tail number for anyone who wants to track it. Same aircraft will fly both ways.

zackary747 wrote:

I think the big thing we have to keep in mind is a lot of those seasonal routes literally just got started for the year in April. The question would be will IND-MYR numbers improve come May/June? Personally, I wouldn't want to go to PHL (F9), AUS (F9/G4), MYR (G4), or CHS (G4) in April. I'd book for May/June/July, so I say before suggesting anything wait for those months data come come out so that we can analyze the big picture. The bulk travel is within the summer months anyway.

I get April is spring break but it's only two weeks. Summer is much longer and the tourism draw is much stronger in those months. Also, those two weeks are subjective as people's schedules are different.

It will be interesting to see how IND-MYR does, I believe G4 is more committed to IND-CHS than IND-MYR though in the long run.

I'm interested to see what the passenger numbers and LFs are by the end of the summer, there is a lot of capacity being added so it will be interesting to see how the IND market absorbs it all

For example September:
DL is adding around 18% more capacity, due to growth from ATL, MSP, JFK, SLC, SEA, and CDG.
AA is adding around 8% more capacity, due to growth from LAX, PHL, ORD, and DFW
G4 is adding around 44% more capacity, due to growth from CHS and a movement from A319s to A320s
F9 is adding around 24% more capacity, due to A321s and AUS, PHL, and SAN
AS and UA will be adding capacity as well

zackary747 wrote:

WN starts IND-OAK today. N8634A is the tail number for anyone who wants to track it. Same aircraft will fly both ways.

The inaugural OAK-IND was sold out way in advance

I think an A220 would be needed to sustain PDX daily year round

I think SAN would do well if they coordinate with the visitor bureau's and push how great tourist destinations both cities are

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Although I have no clue why, IND-CDG has fallen off a very steep cliff and it hasn't hit the bottom yet (will in a few days). Meanwhile CDG-IND is booked solid. I imagine it has to do with first year balancing of the route (getting the right number of people on the other side of the ocean at the right time) - but the next couple of weeks are going to be quite painful eastbound, unless of course you are non-reving, in which case - party on, Wayne.

That’s not a good sign at all for the route is it?

kindeham wrote:

Although I have no clue why, IND-CDG has fallen off a very steep cliff and it hasn't hit the bottom yet (will in a few days). Meanwhile CDG-IND is booked solid. I imagine it has to do with first year balancing of the route (getting the right number of people on the other side of the ocean at the right time) - but the next couple of weeks are going to be quite painful eastbound, unless of course you are non-reving, in which case - party on, Wayne.

How are the PIT, CVG, and RDU flights doing? If I remember correctly someone from CVG said this is quite normal this time of year. As long as we are on par with the other three markets, we'll be fine.

kindeham wrote:

Although I have no clue why, IND-CDG has fallen off a very steep cliff and it hasn't hit the bottom yet (will in a few days). Meanwhile CDG-IND is booked solid. I imagine it has to do with first year balancing of the route (getting the right number of people on the other side of the ocean at the right time) - but the next couple of weeks are going to be quite painful eastbound, unless of course you are non-reving, in which case - party on, Wayne.

I just looked at the seat maps for IND,PIT.CVG.RDU/CDG for 7/16.

IND, PIT, and CVGs map look the same as far as fill rates go.

RDU is a bit more full, but still has some emptyness, but not as much.

Clearly this is normal for this time of year, so there's nothing to worry about. You have to keep in mind that Delta would rather fill it 75 percent of the way at a high price w/ lots of cargo, then fill it 100 percent at basement prices. This is why the IND/PIT/CVG to CDG flights look 'empty' in July. It's happening across the board.

zackary747 wrote:

kindeham wrote:

Although I have no clue why, IND-CDG has fallen off a very steep cliff and it hasn't hit the bottom yet (will in a few days). Meanwhile CDG-IND is booked solid. I imagine it has to do with first year balancing of the route (getting the right number of people on the other side of the ocean at the right time) - but the next couple of weeks are going to be quite painful eastbound, unless of course you are non-reving, in which case - party on, Wayne.

I just looked at the seat maps for IND,PIT.CVG.RDU/CDG for 7/16.

IND, PIT, and CVGs map look the same as far as fill rates go.

RDU is a bit more full, but still has some emptyness, but not as much.

Clearly this is normal for this time of year, so there's nothing to worry about. You have to keep in mind that Delta would rather fill it 75 percent of the way at a high price w/ lots of cargo, then fill it 100 percent at basement prices. This is why the IND/PIT/CVG to CDG flights look 'empty' in July. It's happening across the board.

DL already singled out the IND Paris flights as performing very well in the investor call, so I'm not concerned.

As long as the below average LFs only continue for a month or so, and not for 2-3-4 months the flight will be fine. Plus the CDG-IND leg is performing above average to even it out a little.

Yes, and also, let's not use the seat map game to assess the viability of a route. AF, 9W and others sell codeshares on the DL flight and sometimes those tickets don't come with advance seat reservations, nor does DL's own E class (Basic Economy) on these flights.

That said, a red coat at DL last weekend did tell me the next couple of weeks are pretty wide open on IND-CDG but this was to be somewhat expected.

indygs wrote:

Yes, and also, let's not use the seat map game to assess the viability of a route. AF, 9W and others sell codeshares on the DL flight and sometimes those tickets don't come with advance seat reservations, nor does DL's own E class (Basic Economy) on these flights.

That said, a red coat at DL last weekend did tell me the next couple of weeks are pretty wide open on IND-CDG but this was to be somewhat expected.

By all means I am not saying the seat map is accurate. A lot of those empty seats do end up getting filled. All I am saying is the loads from IND,CVG,PIT to CDG are similar, so it's clearly normal for this to happen in July.

RDU is taking a hit as well, but it's not as bad.

Found this bid on the PlanetBids site for the IND airport. Feel free to take a look. It has something to do with electronic signage.

https://www.planetbids.com/portal/porta ... nyID=32621

Midwestindy wrote:

zackary747 wrote:

Found this bid on the PlanetBids site for the IND airport. Feel free to take a look. It has something to do with electronic signage.

https://www.planetbids.com/portal/porta ... nyID=32621

Which bid are you referring to?

RFP for IND Terminal and Campus Wayfinding and Signage - 1A. The bid posting date was 6/20.

zackary747 wrote:

Found this bid on the PlanetBids site for the IND airport. Feel free to take a look. It has something to do with electronic signage.

https://www.planetbids.com/portal/porta ... nyID=32621

Which bid are you referring to?

zackary747 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

zackary747 wrote:

Found this bid on the PlanetBids site for the IND airport. Feel free to take a look. It has something to do with electronic signage.

https://www.planetbids.com/portal/porta ... nyID=32621

Which bid are you referring to?

RFP for IND Terminal and Campus Wayfinding and Signage - 1A. The bid posting date was 6/20.

Didn't the airport want to put an LED "IND" or "Indy" sign on the mound to the south of economy parking, similar to the "LAX" sign at LAX. Or am I imagining this?

Something else I noticed is that they added a tv with upcoming departures and arrivals outside of the customs area.

Midwestindy wrote:

zackary747 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

Which bid are you referring to?

RFP for IND Terminal and Campus Wayfinding and Signage - 1A. The bid posting date was 6/20.

Didn't the airport want to put an LED "IND" or "Indy" sign on the mound to the south of economy parking, similar to the "LAX" sign at LAX. Or am I imagining this?

Something else I noticed is that they added a tv with upcoming departures and arrivals outside of the customs area.

You're not imagining things. I remember this clearly, but if I remember right cost was the factor.

indygs wrote:

Yes, and also, let's not use the seat map game to assess the viability of a route. AF, 9W and others sell codeshares on the DL flight and sometimes those tickets don't come with advance seat reservations, nor does DL's own E class (Basic Economy) on these flights.

That said, a red coat at DL last weekend did tell me the next couple of weeks are pretty wide open on IND-CDG but this was to be somewhat expected.

Actual numbers show the seat map comparison was pretty accurate - with the exception that CVG-CDG is substantially better (than IND or PIT) on some days. From what the others say though apparently this is normal behavior for the market. (I do wonder what causes the mid-summer doldrums?)

If you go to the concessions refresh bid and look at all the bidding companies, it's very interesting on what you will see.

Flew CDG-IND today, flight didn't seem full online but they were offering several hundred dollars per person to be rebooked on tomorrow's flight (amount about the equivalent of another one-way ticket). Interesting note is that already a few people on the flight today were rebooked from the previous day after taking vouchers. Otherwise what a breeze it was! Baggage carousel could be bigger IMO and another 1-2 CBP agents would be handy...

CDG-IND is going to be pretty rough for most of the month I believe. Overbooking will be a pretty regular problem.

zackary747 wrote:

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/38665105/hoosier-aero-strength-on-display-in-uk

I wish they would say who they were meeting with

BTW Q1 Domestic Airfare Report is out (2018-2017)
MCO is still the largest O&D market for IND with 678 PDEW (up from 580 last year)
Followed by
LGA/EWR/JFK/e.t.c 570--555
MIA/FLL 473--451
DC/BWI 458--539
TPA/PIE 446--410
RSWS 439--457
LAX/SNA/LGB/e.t.c 398--383
LAS 364--356
PHX/AZA 361--293
DEN 353--341

Other markets of note:
BOS 252--222
Bay Area 276--200
SAN 144--128
RDU 103--91
SEA 134--89
AUS 109--86
MSY 97--85
SAT 70--76
SLC 82--66

Midwestindy wrote:

zackary747 wrote:

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/38665105/hoosier-aero-strength-on-display-in-uk

I wish they would say who they were meeting with

BTW Q1 Domestic Airfare Report is out (2018-2017)
MCO is still the largest O&D market for IND with 678 PDEW (up from 580 last year)
Followed by
LGA/EWR/JFK/e.t.c 570--555
MIA/FLL 473--451
DC/BWI 458--539
TPA/PIE 446--410
RSWS 439--457
LAX/SNA/LGB/e.t.c 398--383
LAS 364--356
PHX/AZA 361--293
DEN 353--341

Other markets of note:
BOS 252--222
Bay Area 276--200
SAN 144--128
RDU 103--91
SEA 134--89
AUS 109--86
MSY 97--85
SAT 70--76
SLC 82--66

Thanks! Do you have the numbers for PDX & BDL?

Even though I've mentioned it a few times, it's still interesting to see LAS and PHX have those numbers. A few years ago, okay, maybe 10-12, LAS was at what, 1,000 or so (roughly) per day....and PHX was another 7 or 800.

IndyHoosier wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

zackary747 wrote:

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/38665105/hoosier-aero-strength-on-display-in-uk

I wish they would say who they were meeting with

BTW Q1 Domestic Airfare Report is out (2018-2017)
MCO is still the largest O&D market for IND with 678 PDEW (up from 580 last year)
Followed by
LGA/EWR/JFK/e.t.c 570--555
MIA/FLL 473--451
DC/BWI 458--539
TPA/PIE 446--410
RSWS 439--457
LAX/SNA/LGB/e.t.c 398--383
LAS 364--356
PHX/AZA 361--293
DEN 353--341

Other markets of note:
BOS 252--222
Bay Area 276--200
SAN 144--128
RDU 103--91
SEA 134--89
AUS 109--86
MSY 97--85
SAT 70--76
SLC 82--66

Thanks! Do you have the numbers for PDX & BDL?

PDX is 63 PDEW average fare of $263, DL has largest market share at 26% at $303
*BDL is 46 PDEW average fare of $249, AA has largest market share at 42% at $247, I'm interested to see what this looks like after J1's service increase

PHL continues to be an extremely profitable route for AA considering their average fare of $338, and controlling 84% of the market.

Out of the largest O&D markets
WN flies to 14 of the top 15 city pairs from IND, and 19 of the top 25
DL flies to 6 of the top 15 city pairs from IND, and 9 of the top 25
AA flies to 5 of the top 15 city pairs from IND, and 9 of the top 25

kindeham wrote:

indygs wrote:

Yes, and also, let's not use the seat map game to assess the viability of a route. AF, 9W and others sell codeshares on the DL flight and sometimes those tickets don't come with advance seat reservations, nor does DL's own E class (Basic Economy) on these flights.

That said, a red coat at DL last weekend did tell me the next couple of weeks are pretty wide open on IND-CDG but this was to be somewhat expected.

Actual numbers show the seat map comparison was pretty accurate - with the exception that CVG-CDG is substantially better (than IND or PIT) on some days. From what the others say though apparently this is normal behavior for the market. (I do wonder what causes the mid-summer doldrums?)

I thought about this for a while and looked around at other markets and it appears lots of eastbound to Europe is wide open right now, while westbound is booked solid. After some thinking, I think I might have an idea why. Americans take earlier vacations because of school ending in late May - so they head out in June sometime (which explains why June was booked solid eastbound). They spend a couple weeks then return in late June or July. Meanwhile Europeans start vacations in July, so you have both returning Americans and departing Europeans now filling up the westbound flights. In August the eastbound flights recover as the Europeans start to fly back home. I am curious to hear what others think of my theory.

kindeham wrote:

kindeham wrote:

indygs wrote:

Yes, and also, let's not use the seat map game to assess the viability of a route. AF, 9W and others sell codeshares on the DL flight and sometimes those tickets don't come with advance seat reservations, nor does DL's own E class (Basic Economy) on these flights.

That said, a red coat at DL last weekend did tell me the next couple of weeks are pretty wide open on IND-CDG but this was to be somewhat expected.

Actual numbers show the seat map comparison was pretty accurate - with the exception that CVG-CDG is substantially better (than IND or PIT) on some days. From what the others say though apparently this is normal behavior for the market. (I do wonder what causes the mid-summer doldrums?)

I thought about this for a while and looked around at other markets and it appears lots of eastbound to Europe is wide open right now, while westbound is booked solid. After some thinking, I think I might have an idea why. Americans take earlier vacations because of school ending in late May - so they head out in June sometime (which explains why June was booked solid eastbound). They spend a couple weeks then return in late June or July. Meanwhile Europeans start vacations in July, so you have both returning Americans and departing Europeans now filling up the westbound flights. In August the eastbound flights recover as the Europeans start to fly back home. I am curious to hear what others think of my theory.

I think your theory is somewhat spot on. But, I'd imagine the majority of the IND,CVG,PIT,RDU to CDG flights are mostly business travelers. So, another question would be is what is the average business trip cycle like.

The notion here doesn't surprise me, what surprises me is still the number of seats people are reporting to be open during July. July, to me, personally, was always the time to go take a vacation. That being said, though, many still view Europe as an "investment trip" -- you invest time, effort, money, etc., hang out for a bit and take in all the sites and the tours. For many, they need to go, spend their time, and come back in time for training camps for the fall sports clubs, and in some cases, music, etc. Whereas I'll just cart off to Europe a few weekends a year just to go buy clothes and go bar hopping.

zackary747 wrote:

I think your theory is somewhat spot on. But, I'd imagine the majority of the IND,CVG,PIT,RDU to CDG flights are mostly business travelers. So, another question would be is what is the average business trip cycle like.

Throughout the whole period Business and Premium Economy has been at or near a sell out. I have no clue what percentage of business travelers actually are in a premium cabin, but entertaining the idea that they are then business travel has remained strong and leisure travel is the driving force behind the bi polar Y class sales. Good news is consistant heavy bookings in the premium cabins equals some nice yields, even if economy looks like a ghost town. Either way, when combined with cargo, the return flight being full, and the relatively high prices - this route is certainly making a profit.

kindeham wrote:

I thought about this for a while and looked around at other markets and it appears lots of eastbound to Europe is wide open right now, while westbound is booked solid. After some thinking, I think I might have an idea why. Americans take earlier vacations because of school ending in late May - so they head out in June sometime (which explains why June was booked solid eastbound). They spend a couple weeks then return in late June or July. Meanwhile Europeans start vacations in July, so you have both returning Americans and departing Europeans now filling up the westbound flights. In August the eastbound flights recover as the Europeans start to fly back home. I am curious to hear what others think of my theory.

Your theory is correct. This happens on many trans Atlantic flights, not just IND.

Americans go on vacation in May/June. Flights to Europe are full, and flights back not so much.
Americans come home from vacation in July/August. School is about to start. Flights back from Europe are full. Flights going to Europe not so much, because they are all coming home, to go back to school.
Europeans start their big vacation push in July/August. They fill up the already full inbound-from-Europe flights.
Europeans finish their vacation at the end of August. Flights to Europe will be full again. Flights back to the US not so much.
School is in full swing by September. Now it's time for the retirees, shoulder season bargain hunters, and business people to start flying. Bookings in both directions will pick up again, some days looking just as busy as in summer. This will last until November, when it drops off massively.
Then comes Christmas season, and the rush starts all over; flights will be packed both ways. This lasts until early January, when it really drops off, even more than in November. In the dead of winter, many airlines will cut their routes to 3X, 4X, 5X a week.
All February is quiet, with the exception of a few American holidays, and a few European school breaks. Then flights (especially going south...Florida) will be packed for a couple of days, before returning to normal winter low.
March comes, and people start flying again. The shoulder season crowd shows up, and the closer we get to Easter, the busier the flights get. Most airlines now will start to return to their 7X summer season schedule. The weeks before Easter, and leading up to Pentecost will be busy again, with the same pattern we see in July/August. Americans will fly over before Easter, coming back after Easter, and Europeans will fly over during their Pentecost break, going back afterwards. Depending when those holidays fall year after year, the rest of May will be quiet, until the start of Americans flying to Europe at the end of May. Rinse and repeat. Year after year.

I don't think it is a coincidence that IND is added here with the other hubs/focus cities:

GOL operated by DELTA
Miami – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Miami – New York LaGuardia
Orlando – Boston
Orlando – Cincinnati
Orlando – Indianapolis
Orlando – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Orlando – New York LaGuardia
Orlando – Raleigh/Durham
Orlando – Salt Lake City
Orlando – Seattle

cvgComair wrote:

I don't think it is a coincidence that IND is added here with the other hubs/focus cities:

GOL operated by DELTA
Miami – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Miami – New York LaGuardia
Orlando – Boston
Orlando – Cincinnati
Orlando – Indianapolis
Orlando – Minneapolis/St. Paul
Orlando – New York LaGuardia
Orlando – Raleigh/Durham
Orlando – Salt Lake City
Orlando – Seattle

Are you suggesting that IND could become an official Delta focus city?

What would make you think IND would become a official “Delta focus city” ?

I figured out the reasoning for the change in times for the RDU flight based on DL's September schedule, it looks like DL is trying to feed RDU pax through IND on the days where CDG-RDU doesn't run.

flyboy80 wrote:

Was looking around in the Res system and trying to see Delta's mainline presence in IND after NOV. It looks like 717s in DEC to RSW 2x per week, not sure for how many weeks though. I'm still trying to figure out what months CDG is 3x and 4x. Looks like its 5x weekly through most of October? I guess IND could officially be called a focus city in that it definitely has more variety than a typical outstation and compared to other similar sized midwest markets it would appear Delta has a larger market in IND i.e. more mainline frequency to major hubs (ATL, MSP) along with all three West Coast hubs served.

https://www.ibj.com/articles/68571-term ... ndy-market
Contract stipulates
3x weekly Jan-March
5x weekly Apr-May
Daily Jun-Aug
5x weekly Sep-Oct
4x weekly Nov-Dec

Looks like IND DL capacity growth will be 17% for September and 19% for October, quite the sizable growth.

IND-DTW/MSP get the B739ER in the Fall

Jshank83 wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

I guess IND could officially be called a focus city in that it definitely has more variety than a typical outstation and compared to other similar sized midwest markets it would appear Delta has a larger market in IND i.e. more mainline frequency to major hubs (ATL, MSP) along with all three West Coast hubs served.

I think it needs to start flying more point to point before we throw the word focus city around. DL still mostly flies to hubs/focus cities from IND, besides some seasonal warm weather destinations. I think it needs to have more routes like CVG/RDU/BOS do first, ie MCI, PHL, DCA, etc.

Not necessarily, some routes make sense in one city and not the other. Compare IND and CVG, CVG has a much weaker AA and WN presence and therefore DL can fill more of the market. It is much more profitable for DL to fly CVG-MCI than for DL to try IND-MCI since DL has no competition on CVG-MCI vs. WN with 280+ sets each way on IND-MCI. IND-DCA was run up to 2012, but it won't be added back unless DL gets a lot of slots, but Adding routes like IND-DEN/SFO/PHL/e.t.c wouldn't make much sense profit wise.

DL isn't going to go into competitive markets like that from IND, the most likely destinations they could go after would be cities like AUS, TPA, BDL, e.t.c. But whether or not they call it a "focus city" matters little, as long as they continue to increase their presence in the area.

Midwestindy wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

flyboy80 wrote:

I guess IND could officially be called a focus city in that it definitely has more variety than a typical outstation and compared to other similar sized midwest markets it would appear Delta has a larger market in IND i.e. more mainline frequency to major hubs (ATL, MSP) along with all three West Coast hubs served.

I think it needs to start flying more point to point before we throw the word focus city around. DL still mostly flies to hubs/focus cities from IND, besides some seasonal warm weather destinations. I think it needs to have more routes like CVG/RDU/BOS do first, ie MCI, PHL, DCA, etc.

Not necessarily, some routes make sense in one city and not the other. Compare IND and CVG, CVG has a much weaker AA and WN presence and therefore DL can fill more of the market. It is much more profitable for DL to fly CVG-MCI than for DL to try IND-MCI since DL has no competition on CVG-MCI vs. WN with 280+ sets each way on IND-MCI. IND-DCA was run up to 2012, but it won't be added back unless DL gets a lot of slots, but Adding routes like IND-DEN/SFO/PHL/e.t.c wouldn't make much sense profit wise.

DL isn't going to go into competitive markets like that from IND, the most likely destinations they could go after would be cities like AUS, TPA, BDL, e.t.c. But whether or not they call it a "focus city" matters little, as long as they continue to increase their presence in the area.

I think people get too hung up on titles like "focus city" or "hub". The reality is DL has been increasing service at IND and have been doing reasonably well on services they have added. It looks to me they are picking their spot and adding places they feel will be profitable for their network. Things may slow down a little bit with high fuel prices, but they have a good thing going in IND. If they want to build a larger operation, they'd be able to do it far more easily than at AUS (which everyone seems to be obsessed about).

Just think what IND would be if Delta would of kept more of the routes from the NW focus city like

LAS
AUS
SAT
BDL
PHL

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So when will IND release May numbers??

PIT just gained BA service to LHR year round. . . Wow! Good land for PIT

fedex1 wrote:

So when will IND release May numbers??

Usually released on Fridays, probably not this Friday but likely next

Midwestindy wrote:

https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/07/27/priority-pass-restaurant-greenville-spartanburg-indianapolis/

Interesting. I'm glad to see this come to IND.