What's going on at RDU - 2018

rajincajun01 · Wed May 02, 2018 2:42 am

ERJ170 wrote:
KMCOFlyer wrote:
If RDU supposedly is “Maxed Out” in T2, why doesn’t RDU move F9 and or G4 over to T1? Aren’t there 4 empty gates currently in T1 not being used?

In someone’s wisdom, they did not connect the gates to the baggage system... but there are 2 empty gates still in T2

Correct about T1. Two gates are out of service due to taxiway rehab though.

rajincajun01 · Wed May 02, 2018 2:50 am

AeroMexico is unlikely due to slots at MEX. It would mean another city or frequency would need to be dropped.

Don’t think there’s enough demand for any Canada routes to fill WestJet’s 737s. Air Canada would’ve gone mainline on YYZ if so. Think you have a better chance of Porter coming.

Spirit is possible with FLL. Maybe even DFW and ORD to mess with AA.

KMCOFlyer · Wed May 02, 2018 3:14 am

rajincajun01 wrote:
ERJ170 wrote:
KMCOFlyer wrote:
If RDU supposedly is “Maxed Out” in T2, why doesn’t RDU move F9 and or G4 over to T1? Aren’t there 4 empty gates currently in T1 not being used?

In someone’s wisdom, they did not connect the gates to the baggage system... but there are 2 empty gates still in T2

Correct about T1. Two gates are out of service due to taxiway rehab though.

I was just in RDU on Sunday and I believe 3 gates are actually out of service in T2. (D1,C1,C3)

rajincajun01 · Wed May 02, 2018 10:24 pm

With F9 adding DTW (and MSP), that’s likely one less destination possible for any potential Spirit service. Looks like F9 is targeting Delta with these adds and Austin last year.

flymco753 · Wed May 02, 2018 10:58 pm

rajincajun01 wrote:
With F9 adding DTW (and MSP), that’s likely one less destination possible for any potential Spirit service. Looks like F9 is targeting Delta with these adds and Austin last year.

I wouldn't doubt Spirit still going on DTW. Don't forget, Spirit is the preferred ULCC at DTW so it's most likely F9 would drop. However, the route doesn't normally see fares this low, so they could potentially coincide.

ERJ170 · Wed May 02, 2018 11:16 pm

I would like to see DL come out with about 4 new routes but they are in the upguage mode.. which is good too... they may, they may not do anything.. I would have thought it would have come out today if they were..

wolfpack7145 · Thu May 03, 2018 12:57 pm

D1/C1/C3 are open again.

RDUDDJI · Thu May 03, 2018 2:24 pm

rajincajun01 wrote:
With F9 adding DTW (and MSP), that’s likely one less destination possible for any potential Spirit service. Looks like F9 is targeting Delta with these adds and Austin last year.

Most F9 routes are only 2-3x weekly. I don't think that minuscule level of service is going to discourage another carrier. Although, I concede, it will be interesting to see DL's response (if they consider a few flights a week a threat).

cvgComair · Thu May 03, 2018 7:27 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
With F9 adding DTW (and MSP), that’s likely one less destination possible for any potential Spirit service. Looks like F9 is targeting Delta with these adds and Austin last year.

Most F9 routes are only 2-3x weekly. I don't think that minuscule level of service is going to discourage another carrier. Although, I concede, it will be interesting to see DL's response (if they consider a few flights a week a threat).

Delta responded with lower fares and increase capacity on CVG-MSP when F9 added the route, so I would imagine DL will respond in much of the same way in RDU.

ADrum23 · Fri May 18, 2018 11:42 pm

How many gates does DL have at RDU out of curiousity?

ERJ170 · Fri May 18, 2018 11:56 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
How many gates does DL have at RDU out of curiousity?

11 regular plus an international gate for CDG.. plus some RON gates...

So is DL gonna add any more flights soon? They been kinda stagnant.. and why don’t they have Westjet start RDU.. we need another Canadian tail... and a Mexican tail... I thought I heard MX was eminent

Just a thought..

But good to see DL upguaging...

ADrum23 · Sat May 19, 2018 2:19 am

ERJ170 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
How many gates does DL have at RDU out of curiousity?

11 regular plus an international gate for CDG.. plus some RON gates...

So is DL gonna add any more flights soon? They been kinda stagnant.. and why don’t they have Westjet start RDU.. we need another Canadian tail... and a Mexican tail... I thought I heard MX was eminent

Just a thought..

But good to see DL upguaging...

Wow, that's a lot of gates for only 70 or so flights a day. I thought they only had 8 or something.

WS will likely come sooner or later if the jv with DL is approved (same with all DL hubs/focus cities that don't currently have WS).

admanager · Sat May 19, 2018 2:33 am

ERJ170 wrote:
KMCOFlyer wrote:
If RDU supposedly is “Maxed Out” in T2, why doesn’t RDU move F9 and or G4 over to T1? Aren’t there 4 empty gates currently in T1 not being used?

In someone’s wisdom, they did not connect the gates to the baggage system

I see a revenue opportunity. $25 fee to self retrieve bags from the hold.

Midwestindy · Sat May 19, 2018 5:03 am

ADrum23 wrote:

Wow, that's a lot of gates for only 70 or so flights a day. I thought they only had 8 or something.

Not really, DL has 11 gates at IND for 40 flights

tphuang · Sat May 19, 2018 11:59 am

Midwestindy wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

Wow, that's a lot of gates for only 70 or so flights a day. I thought they only had 8 or something.

Not really, DL has 11 gates at IND for 40 flights

that would indicate they have even more gates than needed at IND. DL should be able to do 8 turn a day per gate on narrowbody flights.

Midwestindy · Sat May 19, 2018 12:13 pm

tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

Wow, that's a lot of gates for only 70 or so flights a day. I thought they only had 8 or something.

Not really, DL has 11 gates at IND for 40 flights

that would indicate they have even more gates than needed at IND. DL should be able to do 8 turn a day per gate on narrowbody flights.

Correct, but IND isn't the only example, IIRC there are a few other airports where DL has a lot of gates.

rajincajun01 · Sat May 19, 2018 12:45 pm

tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:

Wow, that's a lot of gates for only 70 or so flights a day. I thought they only had 8 or something.

Not really, DL has 11 gates at IND for 40 flights

that would indicate they have even more gates than needed at IND. DL should be able to do 8 turn a day per gate on narrowbody flights.

Delta doesn’t have the same model as Southwest. None of the legacy carriers utilize gates like that at just about every mid-size airport. Also, good luck getting eight flights a day of a gate at a place like RDU in the Spring and Summer. Especially with all the flights to NYC and WAS always on ATC delays.

ERJ170 · Sat May 19, 2018 1:03 pm

RDU needs to add gate space pronto.. in T2. Opening T1 gates will be good for F9 and Allegiant to move.. but more gate space in T2 is urgently needed... and just get Charter Express to split ops.. they are absolutely going to have to if they are going to grow as they should...

ncflyer · Sat May 19, 2018 1:23 pm

For non hub airports I find RON needs are a big driver of gate needs, not absolute number of flights, as the 6-8 AM periods are typically busiest by far. If you’re not a hub the schedule is so heavily driven what times are convenient for hub and hub banks being served— in other words ORD/DEN/IAD/IAH hub banks drive UA gate need for RDU as an example. I think this is even true for WN these days. Therefore x gates serves only xx flights I’m not sure is a fair marker of gate needs.

rajincajun01 · Sat May 19, 2018 1:23 pm

ERJ170 wrote:
RDU needs to add gate space pronto.. in T2. Opening T1 gates will be good for F9 and Allegiant to move.. but more gate space in T2 is urgently needed... and just get Charter Express to split ops.. they are absolutely going to have to if they are going to grow as they should...

They’re working on it. That have ALOT of expansion projects they’ve gotten approval for from the RDUAA. A big part of it is significantly more RON parking across taxiways C & D with a crossing road to tow. T1 expansion is in the works with a plan to move a few airlines once security and screening are “fixed”. T2 expansion plan has been fairly public.

SANFan · Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:18 pm

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Frontier adds RDU-SAN. 2x weekly (Wednesday, Saturday) beginning August 15 on A321 equipment.

F9 1717 Depart SAN: 12:52 PM. Arrive RDU: 9: 24 PM
F9 1714 Depart RDU: 10:37 AM Arrive SAN: 1:12 PM

You just beat me to it, while I was searching for the RDU-thread!

Not the level of service -- or carrier -- I was hoping to see, but, hey, better than nothing!

Congrats to both cities for finally getting a nonstop!

bb

AVLAirlineFreq · Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:18 pm

Frontier adds RDU-SAN. 2x weekly (Wednesday, Saturday) beginning August 15 on A321 equipment.

F9 1717 Depart SAN: 12:52 PM. Arrive RDU: 9: 24 PM
F9 1714 Depart RDU: 10:37 AM Arrive SAN: 1:12 PM

TimeForFlight · Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:34 pm

Personal preferences aside, I wonder how long F9 will actually operate this route with this frequency. The W, Sa-only frequency isn't great, especially for weekend vacationers (and F9's market isn't business travelers). I'm sure the likes of WN and AS are going to be watching F9's load factors. As soon as a non-ULCC enters the market, my hunch is that this service will drop. Still, it's overdue for these markets to be connected! Really glad for the addition.

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Frontier adds RDU-SAN. 2x weekly (Wednesday, Saturday) beginning August 15 on A321 equipment.

F9 1717 Depart SAN: 12:52 PM. Arrive RDU: 9: 24 PM
F9 1714 Depart RDU: 10:37 AM Arrive SAN: 1:12 PM

SANFan · Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:44 pm

TimeForFlight wrote:
Personal preferences aside, I wonder how long F9 will actually operate this route with this frequency. The W, Sa-only frequency isn't great, especially for weekend vacationers (and F9's market isn't business travelers). I'm sure the likes of WN and AS are going to be watching F9's load factors. As soon as a non-ULCC enters the market, my hunch is that this service will drop. Still, it's overdue for these markets to be connected! Really glad for the addition.

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Frontier adds RDU-SAN. 2x weekly (Wednesday, Saturday) beginning August 15 on A321 equipment.

F9 1717 Depart SAN: 12:52 PM. Arrive RDU: 9: 24 PM
F9 1714 Depart RDU: 10:37 AM Arrive SAN: 1:12 PM

Good post! I agree that the market is rich in business travelers who certainly aren't going to use F9. I think the market is too big to not be added by someone else soon. I don't know about WN and AS but I would think DL is watching this market, especially since RDU is a focus city for them. Perhaps they waited just a bit too long to jump... (As far as being the first cx in the market!)

bb

RDUDDJI · Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:29 pm

SANFan wrote:
TimeForFlight wrote:
Personal preferences aside, I wonder how long F9 will actually operate this route with this frequency. The W, Sa-only frequency isn't great, especially for weekend vacationers (and F9's market isn't business travelers). I'm sure the likes of WN and AS are going to be watching F9's load factors. As soon as a non-ULCC enters the market, my hunch is that this service will drop. Still, it's overdue for these markets to be connected! Really glad for the addition.

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Frontier adds RDU-SAN. 2x weekly (Wednesday, Saturday) beginning August 15 on A321 equipment.

F9 1717 Depart SAN: 12:52 PM. Arrive RDU: 9: 24 PM
F9 1714 Depart RDU: 10:37 AM Arrive SAN: 1:12 PM

Good post! I agree that the market is rich in business travelers who certainly aren't going to use F9. I think the market is too big to not be added by someone else soon. I don't know about WN and AS but I would think DL is watching this market, especially since RDU is a focus city for them. Perhaps they waited just a bit too long to jump... (As far as being the first cx in the market!)

bb

I've noticed that since F9 has been adding all these markets from RDU (this brings F9 up to 21), DL has been pretty silent on new flights. I wonder if they don't want to step into a market with an ULCC or perhaps they're waiting to see how it goes.

ERJ170 · Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:05 pm

At some point, DL is going to have to retaliate or something. F9 seems to be snatching up all their low hanging fruit. Not saying DL is the owner of RDU, but they have labeled it as their property. But I guess F9 has too. Upguagi g has been nice for DL but it’s time to make some moves... AS too... I thought SAN was their hub or focus or something. Can’t be too conservative these days. The LCC and ULCC are being very aggressive and getting unserved routes and, probably, incentives for these routes... *sigh* it is fun to watch.. now if someone will give AC competition on Canadian routes and force them to upguage...

Jfilyaw · Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:06 pm

Regardless that it is F9, it is amazing to see how much F9 is beginning to use RDU. I'm amazed at how much attention they're giving to the airport.

jplatts · Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:36 pm

ERJ170 wrote:
At some point, DL is going to have to retaliate or something. F9 seems to be snatching up all their low hanging fruit. Not saying DL is the owner of RDU, but they have labeled it as their property. But I guess F9 has too. Upguagi g has been nice for DL but it’s time to make some moves... AS too... I thought SAN was their hub or focus or something. Can’t be too conservative these days. The LCC and ULCC are being very aggressive and getting unserved routes and, probably, incentives for these routes... *sigh* it is fun to watch.. now if someone will give AC competition on Canadian routes and force them to upguage...

DL has a focus city at RDU and a hub at LAX, but DL does not currently have a hub or focus city at SAN. However, while DL doesn't have a hub or focus city at either SAN or LAS, DL does operate nonstop service to LAS from SAN.

WN could add nonstop service to OAK, SJC, LAX, and SAN from RDU for several reasons, including the following:

RDU is one of the few WN destinations with nonstop service to the 7 largest WN focus cities (MDW, BWI, LAS, DEN, PHX, DAL, and HOU) that doesn't have nonstop service to any California destinations on WN
WN still has significant market share at RDU, even with the DL focus city at RDU and recent F9 expansion at RDU
WN has been recently expanding in California in order to maintain market share in California and in order to better compete against AS
WN could add RDU-OAK and RDU-SJC nonstop service in order to better compete against AS's RDU-SFO nonstop service
WN has served RDU prior to DL establishing a focus city at RDU and prior to F9 entering the RDU market
WN has an established frequent flyer base in California and the Research Triangle to support nonstop service to California destinations from RDU

WN732 · Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:40 pm

ScrantonUSC wrote:
144 PDEW from RDU-SAN. That should be good enough for a new flight, so I think it’s a matter of who pulls the trigger and finding the right plane that’s available. Do the cities have Pharma links?

I’d start to question Delta’s “Focus City” marketing, if Alaska pulls the tigger first. Southwest would also make sense, but despite their market % at RDU, I don’t think it’s their kind of flight.

WN is #3 at RDU at 21% market share and is #1 at SAN. I think they could make it work. They definitely have bigger fish to fry but it would work.

ScrantonUSC · Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:03 am

Good for the airport, and I'm glad for the people that will make use out of this, but the scheduling is horrible. A Wed to Sat or Sat to Wed trip to SD for leisure is out of the question for me. It's not time efficient at all for PTO from work. If it was more friendly to the regular work schedule, this would be a flight that my wife and I would take multiple times a year. We will be connecting on Delta the next time we head to SAN. I also understand that there is a fair amount of pharma business travel on this route, that I have to believe won't be taking advantage of this either.

SANMAN66 · Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:59 am

I was thinking AS or WN would jump on the RDU-SAN since SAN is a focus city for both carriers, or possibly DL, since RDU is their focus city, hopefully F9 lights a fire under AS, WN ,and DL for starting the route first?

Noise · Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:47 pm

Too bad for AS and DL but good for F9.

By not going into SAN, MCI, BUF, MSY, MKE and SAT, I feel DL missed a few opportunities from RDU.

rajincajun01 · Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:45 pm

AS is focused on the West Coast at the moment, and doesn’t seem much in the mood for expansion. Huge missed opportunity.

jplatts · Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:00 pm

rajincajun01 wrote:
AS is focused on the West Coast at the moment, and doesn’t seem much in the mood for expansion. Huge missed opportunity.

I agree that AS not adding more nonstop routes was a missed opportunity, and AS still does have opportunities to add nonstop service to RDU from PDX, SJC, LAX, and SAN.

rajincajun01 · Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:05 pm

jplatts wrote:
I agree that AS not adding more nonstop routes was a missed opportunity, and AS still does have opportunities to add nonstop service to RDU from PDX, SJC, LAX, and SAN.

AS won’t add SJC without dropping SFO. There also isn’t enough demand for 5 daily flights on three airlines to LAX from RDU. Now that the incentives drop from SAN and RDU airports because of F9. The chances of that add have dropped significantly.

Noise · Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:25 pm

rajincajun01 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
I agree that AS not adding more nonstop routes was a missed opportunity, and AS still does have opportunities to add nonstop service to RDU from PDX, SJC, LAX, and SAN.

AS won’t add SJC without dropping SFO. There also isn’t enough demand for 5 daily flights on three airlines to LAX from RDU. Now that the incentives drop from SAN and RDU airports because of F9. The chances of that add have dropped significantly.

That is correct. Meaning the only west coast city I see AS adding from RDU in the near term is PDX.

Rafale9312 · Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:29 pm

rajincajun01 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
I agree that AS not adding more nonstop routes was a missed opportunity, and AS still does have opportunities to add nonstop service to RDU from PDX, SJC, LAX, and SAN.

AS won’t add SJC without dropping SFO. There also isn’t enough demand for 5 daily flights on three airlines to LAX from RDU. Now that the incentives drop from SAN and RDU airports because of F9. The chances of that add have dropped significantly.

I think RDU's incentives covers daily, year-round flights, so I don't think F9 is necessarily getting a subsidy for this, but I could be wrong because this is a new service.

tphuang · Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:31 pm

As is getting crushed on some of these new flights out of sfo. I wouldn’t be surprised if rdu gets dropped.

rajincajun01 · Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:27 pm

tphuang wrote:
As is getting crushed on some of these new flights out of sfo. I wouldn’t be surprised if rdu gets dropped.

The AS SFO has been in line with other east coast cities at this point, including BNA. UA adding the additional frequency did not help though.

rajincajun01 · Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:34 pm

Rafale9312 wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
I agree that AS not adding more nonstop routes was a missed opportunity, and AS still does have opportunities to add nonstop service to RDU from PDX, SJC, LAX, and SAN.

AS won’t add SJC without dropping SFO. There also isn’t enough demand for 5 daily flights on three airlines to LAX from RDU. Now that the incentives drop from SAN and RDU airports because of F9. The chances of that add have dropped significantly.

I think RDU's incentives covers daily, year-round flights, so I don't think F9 is necessarily getting a subsidy for this, but I could be wrong because this is a new service.

Looking into a N&O article you are pretty much right. The flights must be 5x weekly, year round for a $50,000 incentive. I’m sure there is something else the airport will help with to ensure the route is successful.

tphuang · Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:52 am

rajincajun01 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
As is getting crushed on some of these new flights out of sfo. I wouldn’t be surprised if rdu gets dropped.

The AS SFO has been in line with other east coast cities at this point, including BNA. UA adding the additional frequency did not help though.

I don't know if you've gotten insider data from anything this year. I don't know what's considered in line, but their Q4 data for RDU/BNA/IND/MCI are all really bad. And that was with the high CASM VX birds. I don't see how they can keep up with that kind of yields for so many markets. Outside of MCO and maybe BWI/MSY, I don't see anything doing all that well. So I wouldn't get my hopes high about AS adding anything else.

blueheronNC · Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:22 pm

Frontier just added nonstops from RDU to Montego Bay, Jamaica, Punta Cana, Dominican Republic, Fort Myers, West Palm Beach, Cancun and Phoenix..
https://news.flyfrontier.com/frontier-a ... op-routes/

Midwestindy · Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:34 pm

blueheronNC wrote:
Frontier just added nonstops from RDU to Montego Bay, Jamaica, Punta Cana, Dominican Republic, Fort Myers, West Palm Beach, Cancun and Phoenix..
https://news.flyfrontier.com/frontier-a ... op-routes/

F9's growth in RDU is astonishing, it looks like they are trying to replicate DEN on the East Coast. Last year at this time they served 5 destinations TOTAL, now they will be up to 27!

ncflyer · Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:19 pm

Astonishing is the word, but everything F9 does is as fleeting as a hub in Trenton.

Rafale9312 · Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:23 pm

Very exciting times for RDU! I'm interested in what further response will DL or SW have for F9's rapid expansion, if any.

jplatts · Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:59 pm

Rafale9312 wrote:
Very exciting times for RDU! I'm interested in what further response will DL or SW have for F9's rapid expansion, if any.

WN could add RDU-AUS and RDU-SAN nonstop service in response to F9 adding nonstop service to AUS and SAN from RDU, and WN could add RDU-OAK and RDU-SJC nonstop service in response to AS adding RDU-SFO nonstop service last year.

casinterest · Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:10 pm

Frontier may finally be going for mindshare in a growing market. A good thing for them .
The RDU market is ripe, and if the Apple or Amazon campus do get put in RTP, then Frontier wants to be a big piece of the pie.

It does need to be said though that the current frequencies are not in line to garner repeat business or emergency travel on most of these routes, so it remains to be seen how committed Frontier is to them.

Murdoughnut · Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:11 pm

An F9 pilot strike might put some fizzle into this, though.

Fex180 · Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:28 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Astonishing is the word, but everything F9 does is as fleeting as a hub in Trenton.

I guess it all depends on how well they can bank the hub. RDU could become a great hub for connecting mid-sized northeastern markets ( PVD, MDT, PWM, SYR) with points in Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean.

ncflyer · Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:17 pm

Not to turn this in to a Frontier thread, but who in their right mind would connect in a place like Raleigh. If you miss your flight from Buffalo to Montego Bay because of a snowstorm (assuming the banks work out for such a routing in the first place), it could be 3 days until the next flight. Not nearly the same type of problem connecting in Atlanta or Charlotte. At least F9 in Denver, from what I know has daily service to many destinations, as far as I know. I one time missed an F9 connection in Denver due to weather at my origin city and at least they could get me out the next day-- sure was better than waiting half a week.

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