This thread does not accept facts or reality.

Comparing IAH / ORD - AKL vs. DTW - India is like comparing a Ferrari to a Yugo.

DTW is not the center of the universe, please accept that. If money was to be made at DTW, the service would be there. It’s simple business 101. There is no conspiracy, collusion, or hatred of DTW. Airlines are in this to make money and have a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders. If DL can make more profit at ATL, JFK, etc., they will allocate resources there. DL just announced SEA - HKG is going away. I wish them luck on SEA - KIX, but that has dog written all over it.

This thread is all emotion driven. If you make non-positive comments about DTW, you are questioned, ridiculed, and trolled.

To make matters worse, a couple of posters on this thread go to other threads and blast new routes not at DTW and say it should go to DTW. No reason is given other than DTW deserves it. DTW, or any other airport for that matter, doesn’t deserve anything.

Aviation is profit driven and planes will be placed where money is to be made. Airlines have access to incredible amounts of data and spend enormous amounts of time on route choices, especially international routes.

Based on logic in this thread, ATL / DFW / ORD should all be the DXB of North America.

dtw2hyd wrote:

nmdrdh787 wrote:

makes for a toxic conversation or hurts professionals.

On any ABC-XYZ service announcement thread, 777Mech gaslights the thread with an insult to Detroit, winginit puts more gas with additional insults and Laxdude brings some old useless foreign-born data.

I haven't seen any of this because I just jumped in. Sorry about not getting the whole context.

nomorerjs wrote:

This thread does not accept facts or reality.

Comparing IAH / ORD - AKL vs. DTW - India is like comparing a Ferrari to a Yugo.

DTW is not the center of the universe, please accept that. If money was to be made at DTW, the service would be there. It’s simple business 101. There is no conspiracy, collusion, or hatred of DTW. Airlines are in this to make money and have a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders. If DL can make more profit at ATL, JFK, etc., they will allocate resources there. DL just announced SEA - HKG is going away. I wish them luck on SEA - KIX, but that has dog written all over it.

This thread is all emotion driven. If you make non-positive comments about DTW, you are questioned, ridiculed, and trolled.

To make matters worse, a couple of posters on this thread go to other threads and blast new routes not at DTW and say it should go to DTW. No reason is given other than DTW deserves it. DTW, or any other airport for that matter, doesn’t deserve anything.

Aviation is profit driven and planes will be placed where money is to be made. Airlines have access to incredible amounts of data and spend enormous amounts of time on route choices, especially international routes.

Based on logic in this thread, ATL / DFW / ORD should all be the DXB of North America.

SEA-KIX should do ok, however I remember seeing that its yield is China level trash (atleast from ORD).

100% agree its emotion driven.

As much as I want to say something about ORD-AKL, I know that the facts showing the strong case for it will just be fuel on the fire.

Also to this point: "Aviation is profit driven and planes will be placed where money is to be made. Airlines have access to incredible amounts of data and spend enormous amounts of time on route choices, especially international routes."

The statement is about 95% true. There are some major data holes to be filled (POS data, load times, cargo is a MAJOR one I wish I had detailed insights to), and there is plenty of opportunity for new types of analysis (I was in the processes of making an extremely detailed catchment analysis that combined census, geographic and the "good" POS data into one. Something that wasn't thought about much.). I do live by the profit driven point, its something I am grappling trying to make a Orbis Flying Eye hospital like plane- how to make it profitable.

dtw2hyd wrote:

nmdrdh787 wrote:

As I stated above. CC ZIPCODE is useless until the data providers release their data (Expedia). If Network planners had an accurate date for this, it would be the holy grail. Literally. Unless things have changed.
...

None of us are trying to have a personal bone with you (atleast I am not), but we would like some facts with your claims. Too many people throw false claims, rumors, etc around this forum and it just makes for a toxic conversation or hurts professionals. So no need to report anything.

CC ZIPCODE theory is not mine and was used to coach us Detroiters there is no market.

Michigan has 77,000, Ohio has 64,000 and Windsor has 4,000 Indian per the last census. Irrespective of your definition of the catchment, this market is unserved.

There are a lot of DTW-India passengers driving or self-connecting at ORD. They may be helping ORD-India numbers, but not DTW. If there is no market, why did B6/EK start DTW-BOS?

A $1700 J RT is a premium market but a $1700 Y RT to the same place is low-yield. What sort of logic is this? And why should anyone take offense for asking this question?

Something tells me there were other reasons why B6 started BOS-DTW flights. In any event, I am wondering why EK, or even QR, has not started DXB-DTW if the market is there? EK has the planes. They've been expanding over the last 5 plus years. If the market from Detroit to the Middle East and India is there, why hasn't a carrier jumped on it? I don't count the token service to Royal Jordanian.

B752OS wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

nmdrdh787 wrote:

As I stated above. CC ZIPCODE is useless until the data providers release their data (Expedia). If Network planners had an accurate date for this, it would be the holy grail. Literally. Unless things have changed.
...

None of us are trying to have a personal bone with you (atleast I am not), but we would like some facts with your claims. Too many people throw false claims, rumors, etc around this forum and it just makes for a toxic conversation or hurts professionals. So no need to report anything.

CC ZIPCODE theory is not mine and was used to coach us Detroiters there is no market.

Michigan has 77,000, Ohio has 64,000 and Windsor has 4,000 Indian per the last census. Irrespective of your definition of the catchment, this market is unserved.

There are a lot of DTW-India passengers driving or self-connecting at ORD. They may be helping ORD-India numbers, but not DTW. If there is no market, why did B6/EK start DTW-BOS?

A $1700 J RT is a premium market but a $1700 Y RT to the same place is low-yield. What sort of logic is this? And why should anyone take offense for asking this question?

Something tells me there were other reasons why B6 started BOS-DTW flights. In any event, I am wondering why EK, or even QR, has not started DXB-DTW if the market is there? EK has the planes. They've been expanding over the last 5 plus years. If the market from Detroit to the Middle East and India is there, why hasn't a carrier jumped on it? I don't count the token service to Royal Jordanian.

RJ caters to a whole different market than EK or QR would.

For your viewing pleasure and wish list:

https://www.facebook.com/657044120/post ... 304034121/

klm617 wrote:

lastly if every other major hub now has one KLM flight why is Detroit always blackballed from having the same option. KLM has the same aircraft that KLM does so it's not a matter of the right aircraft for the right route KLM has that. If an airline calls out DTW as in it's expansion plans then it's on the airport to make it happen because the airline has already stated it wants to be in this market.

Why does it matter if it is a KLM flight or a Delta flight? They are both Skyteam.....

DTW has the more Skyteam AMS flights then BOS, LAX, SLC, SEA, and has the same number as MSP and ATL.

KLM is a worse long-haul airline then DL, so I don't know why you would want them to swap out a KLM flight for a DL flight, unless you just want to see another livery......

Midwestindy wrote:

klm617 wrote:

lastly if every other major hub now has one KLM flight why is Detroit always blackballed from having the same option. KLM has the same aircraft that KLM does so it's not a matter of the right aircraft for the right route KLM has that. If an airline calls out DTW as in it's expansion plans then it's on the airport to make it happen because the airline has already stated it wants to be in this market.

Why does it matter if it is a KLM flight or a Delta flight? They are both Skyteam.....

DTW has the more Skyteam AMS flights then BOS, LAX, SLC, SEA, and has the same number as MSP and ATL.

KLM is a worse long-haul airline then DL, so I don't know why you would want them to swap out a KLM flight for a DL flight, unless you just want to see another livery......

It’s not about product, economics, or aviation treaties. In this thread, every airline flying to the US must fly to DTW and every route served from a US airport must be served from DTW. Simple.

I live in DTW and my brother is a 320 Cpt for DL and my wife is Platinum. I hardly ever read the DTW thread because one poster is so aggravating...

klm617 wrote:

B752OS wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

CC ZIPCODE theory is not mine and was used to coach us Detroiters there is no market.

Michigan has 77,000, Ohio has 64,000 and Windsor has 4,000 Indian per the last census. Irrespective of your definition of the catchment, this market is unserved.

There are a lot of DTW-India passengers driving or self-connecting at ORD. They may be helping ORD-India numbers, but not DTW. If there is no market, why did B6/EK start DTW-BOS?

A $1700 J RT is a premium market but a $1700 Y RT to the same place is low-yield. What sort of logic is this? And why should anyone take offense for asking this question?

Something tells me there were other reasons why B6 started BOS-DTW flights. In any event, I am wondering why EK, or even QR, has not started DXB-DTW if the market is there? EK has the planes. They've been expanding over the last 5 plus years. If the market from Detroit to the Middle East and India is there, why hasn't a carrier jumped on it? I don't count the token service to Royal Jordanian.

RJ caters to a whole different market than EK or QR would.

Hence why I said I don't count it.

It used to be one homer on this thread, we now have a second homer that thinks DTW is the only airport in North America

What’s in the water in Detroit or have you all been spending time in “decriminalized states?”

nmdrdh787 wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

nmdrdh787 wrote:

makes for a toxic conversation or hurts professionals.

On any ABC-XYZ service announcement thread, 777Mech gaslights the thread with an insult to Detroit, winginit puts more gas with additional insults and Laxdude brings some old useless foreign-born data.

I haven't seen any of this because I just jumped in. Sorry about not getting the whole context.

nomorerjs wrote:

This thread does not accept facts or reality.

Comparing IAH / ORD - AKL vs. DTW - India is like comparing a Ferrari to a Yugo.

DTW is not the center of the universe, please accept that. If money was to be made at DTW, the service would be there. It’s simple business 101. There is no conspiracy, collusion, or hatred of DTW. Airlines are in this to make money and have a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders. If DL can make more profit at ATL, JFK, etc., they will allocate resources there. DL just announced SEA - HKG is going away. I wish them luck on SEA - KIX, but that has dog written all over it.

This thread is all emotion driven. If you make non-positive comments about DTW, you are questioned, ridiculed, and trolled.

To make matters worse, a couple of posters on this thread go to other threads and blast new routes not at DTW and say it should go to DTW. No reason is given other than DTW deserves it. DTW, or any other airport for that matter, doesn’t deserve anything.

Aviation is profit driven and planes will be placed where money is to be made. Airlines have access to incredible amounts of data and spend enormous amounts of time on route choices, especially international routes.

Based on logic in this thread, ATL / DFW / ORD should all be the DXB of North America.

SEA-KIX should do ok, however I remember seeing that its yield is China level trash (atleast from ORD).

100% agree its emotion driven.

As much as I want to say something about ORD-AKL, I know that the facts showing the strong case for it will just be fuel on the fire.

Also to this point: "Aviation is profit driven and planes will be placed where money is to be made. Airlines have access to incredible amounts of data and spend enormous amounts of time on route choices, especially international routes."

The statement is about 95% true. There are some major data holes to be filled (POS data, load times, cargo is a MAJOR one I wish I had detailed insights to), and there is plenty of opportunity for new types of analysis (I was in the processes of making an extremely detailed catchment analysis that combined census, geographic and the "good" POS data into one. Something that wasn't thought about much.). I do live by the profit driven point, its something I am grappling trying to make a Orbis Flying Eye hospital like plane- how to make it profitable.

I'm not saying ORD-AKL shouldn't be flown what I am saying is that using the same parameters that justify ORD-AKL one could jusitfy DTW-MAN, DTW-DUB and EK service to DXB. Just curious in your presentation to perspective new airlines to service ORD did you use Michigan at all as part of the draw they could expect to get when adding ORD

nomorerjs wrote:

It used to be one homer on this thread, we now have a second homer that thinks DTW is the only airport in North America

What’s in the water in Detroit or have you all been spending time in “decriminalized states?”

Optimism my friend and critical thinking something most people reject in fear because they don't want the truth to be known they just want to continue to preach what they have been programmed to believe.

klm617 wrote:

nomorerjs wrote:

It used to be one homer on this thread, we now have a second homer that thinks DTW is the only airport in North America
What’s in the water in Detroit or have you all been spending time in “decriminalized states?”

Optimism my friend and critical thinking something most people reject in fear because they don't want the truth to be known they just want to continue to preach what they have been programmed to believe.

"Optimism" and "critical thinking" do not, in normal humans, breed conspiracy theories and the obsessive refusal to accepts provable facts.

Indeed, critical thinking rejects the ridiculous excesses of this thread (as, was accurately pointed out, are spewed constantly by two most obnoxious posters herein), and optimism is valid only when it is based on facts and realistic expectations.

Grasp a little of that sometime.

nomorerjs wrote:

It used to be one homer on this thread, we now have a second homer that thinks DTW is the only airport in North America

What’s in the water in Detroit or have you all been spending time in “decriminalized states?”

Too much fresh water!!! Second largest in the world.

How is it different from other fanboys asking every airline to come to their town and offer dirt cheap J prices?

NYC with 600,000 Indians and 5 non-stops and probably 10 more carriers offering one-stop to 35 Indian airports. DTW with almost 100,000 has one-stop to 4 Indian airports[/b]? How is that appropriate?

dtw2hyd wrote:

nomorerjs wrote:

It used to be one homer on this thread, we now have a second homer that thinks DTW is the only airport in North America
What’s in the water in Detroit or have you all been spending time in “decriminalized states?”

Too much fresh water!!! Second largest in the world.
How is it different from other fanboys asking every airline to come to their town and offer dirt cheap J prices?
NYC with 600,000 Indians and 5 non-stops and probably 10 more carriers offering one-stop to 35 Indian airports. DTW with almost 100,000 has one-stop to 4 Indian airports[/b]? How is that appropriate?

Poor baby! You have to make a stop on the way to India? That is so heartless!

Everybody knows you DTW guys should be entitled to a flight to anywhere you want to go - with no stops, and at the most convenient times - with the lowest fares ever seen on earth. That is only fair! No wonder you and the other guy - do you have a brother whose name starts with "klm", by the way? - believe everybody is out to "get" you. Those conspiracy theories must be true - you have proved it!

Its pretty clear the keyboard warriors have finally found some "friends" in life, and their sorority is all about ganging up on those who they blatently call out in this thread. Bring it on losers.

We will continue , with the knowledge of working at, living in, and helping to build the DTW metro, suggest/discuss/support new routes from/to DTW and the region. No tiny man will tell me otherwise. #LongHaul

nomorerjs wrote:

It used to be one homer on this thread, we now have a second homer that thinks DTW is the only airport in North America.

It looks like three might be now... but I would not be shocked to learn somebody had more than one profile name...

But three rubes in a city with a population of around 700,000 (remember when it was 1.8 million? 1950?) isn't bad... it is just sad that they embarrass an otherwise forward-thinking and striving-to-improve city so much...

dtw2hyd wrote:

NYC with 600,000 Indians and 5 non-stops and probably 10 more carriers offering one-stop to 35 Indian airports. DTW with almost 100,000 has one-stop to 4 Indian airports[/b]? How is that appropriate?

There are reasons why New York would have significantly more service than Detroit, and it goes beyond population statistics. New York plays a key role in both the global financial industry and the American business community, is the cultural heart of the nation, and acts as one of the country's primary international gateways and tourist destinations. There is just significantly more demand for travel to New York than there is to Detroit.

Speaking from the India end of the debate, a nonstop or even one stop DTW link is a bit low on the shopping list, considering that LAX still lacks a nonstop to India, BOM has no nonstop beyond EWR, and other Indian gateways are still one stop away from even NYC.

seanpmassey wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

NYC with 600,000 Indians and 5 non-stops and probably 10 more carriers offering one-stop to 35 Indian airports. DTW with almost 100,000 has one-stop to 4 Indian airports[/b]? How is that appropriate?

There are reasons why New York would have significantly more service than Detroit, and it goes beyond population statistics. New York plays a key role in both the global financial industry and the American business community, is the cultural heart of the nation, and acts as one of the country's primary international gateways and tourist destinations. There is just significantly more demand for travel to New York than there is to Detroit.

NYC - India (560,000)
AI - Non-stop - 2 cities
One-stop - 35
UA Non-stop -2
One-stop - 12 (may be)
EK - One-stop - 12
QR - One-stop - 12
EY - One-stop - 12+
DL - non-stop 1 (planned)
DL,KL,VS, AF, (9W) - One-stop 4
Two-stop (~12)
Air China - One-stop - 2
China Southern - One-stop - 2
China Eastern - One-stop - 2
TK - One-stop - 2
BA - One-stop - 5
LF - One-stop - 3
WW - One-stop 1 (Planned)
Swiss - ??

DTW-India 100,000 (MI 77,000 + 1/3 Ohio + Windsor 4000), A better served DTW will attract 1/3 Ohio Indians to DTW.
DL,AF(9W) - One-stop 4 cities
Two-stop (~12)
LF - One-stop 2
Two-stop (~12)
WW-One-stop 1 Planned

NYC is a capacity dumped market, 16 carriers dumping capacity and lowering prices. How is DL going to make money when its own Chinese partners are offering $599 fares.

alfa164 wrote:

nomorerjs wrote:

It used to be one homer on this thread, we now have a second homer that thinks DTW is the only airport in North America.

It looks like three might be now... but I would not be shocked to learn somebody had more than one profile name...

But three rubes in a city with a population of around 700,000 (remember when it was 1.8 million? 1950?) isn't bad... it is just sad that they embarrass an otherwise forward-thinking and striving-to-improve city so much...

Too many squatters on this thread.

I actually have a theory, most Indians who lost jobs in Detroit were forced to move to Atlanta, Dallas, and other places. Hence the hate.

Assuming you know the difference between Metro Detroit MSA/CSA and City of Detroit, even City has $36 Million surplus budget, next year $360 Million surplus budget and got a credit rating bump

pg89 wrote:

Speaking from the India end of the debate, a nonstop or even one stop DTW link is a bit low on the shopping list, considering that LAX still lacks a nonstop to India, BOM has no nonstop beyond EWR, and other Indian gateways are still one stop away from even NYC.

All I said that DTW-BOM stands a better chance of making money than JFK-BOM. My main bone of contention is why DTW has not landed an ME3 carrier yet when the market is so ripe for one with higher than average fares to every where. Thank good WOW Air to a chance to level the field a bit EK and EI would also help.

jordanh wrote:

klm617 wrote:

nomorerjs wrote:

It used to be one homer on this thread, we now have a second homer that thinks DTW is the only airport in North America
What’s in the water in Detroit or have you all been spending time in “decriminalized states?”

Optimism my friend and critical thinking something most people reject in fear because they don't want the truth to be known they just want to continue to preach what they have been programmed to believe.

"Optimism" and "critical thinking" do not, in normal humans, breed conspiracy theories and the obsessive refusal to accepts provable facts.

Indeed, critical thinking rejects the ridiculous excesses of this thread (as, was accurately pointed out, are spewed constantly by two most obnoxious posters herein), and optimism is valid only when it is based on facts and realistic expectations.

Grasp a little of that sometime.

You can't say with a straight face that Delta doesn't restrict capacity in this market to drive fares up as high as they can because of lack of competition and it's ability to drive anyone one out of the market to protect it's strong hold. That my friend is legal price fixing and it can do that because of consolidation that has eliminated most competition in this market.

dtw2hyd wrote:

nomorerjs wrote:

It used to be one homer on this thread, we now have a second homer that thinks DTW is the only airport in North America

What’s in the water in Detroit or have you all been spending time in “decriminalized states?”

Too much fresh water!!! Second largest in the world.

How is it different from other fanboys asking every airline to come to their town and offer dirt cheap J prices?

NYC with 600,000 Indians and 5 non-stops and probably 10 more carriers offering one-stop to 35 Indian airports. DTW with almost 100,000 has one-stop to 4 Indian airports[/b]? How is that appropriate?

I wouldn't focus just on populations of Indians. NYC is a much larger business draw than Detroit is. Same goes for tourism - Detroit is simply not a tourist destination while NYC is.

Why is the curb appeal at the south entrance of the airport so horrible? I flew in from MCO a few days ago and realized it looks terrible. Is the resurfacing on the north side going to happen on the south side?

Part of the problem in the Detroit market from a consumer point of view is that both AF/DL and LH dump their excess capacity on reasonably priced flights to India. They may not be the low prices of the Chinese carriers, but they fill up their planes with tickets to India that are only slightly higher than their own fares from New York or Chicago (50-100 dollars more) while acting as an oligopoly and keeping very high prices on tickets to Europe where a ticket to Europe that involves a connection is typically 300-400 dollars more than a flight to India from Detroit. Flights to Europe and Africa from Detroit are often more than a thousand dollars higher from Detroit than New York, even if you are willing to do multiple connections to fly out of Detroit. Air Canada through YYZ and B6 and its partners from Boston only show up intermittently with available routings at a lesser cost to Europe or Africa. Some have noticed that they also are prioritizing filling their planes with flights to India as well. To Europe, both AF/DL and LH appear to be ignoring WOW for the time being. This is the key issue that drives many of the postings on this thread.

dtw2hyd wrote:

seanpmassey wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

NYC with 600,000 Indians and 5 non-stops and probably 10 more carriers offering one-stop to 35 Indian airports. DTW with almost 100,000 has one-stop to 4 Indian airports[/b]? How is that appropriate?

There are reasons why New York would have significantly more service than Detroit, and it goes beyond population statistics. New York plays a key role in both the global financial industry and the American business community, is the cultural heart of the nation, and acts as one of the country's primary international gateways and tourist destinations. There is just significantly more demand for travel to New York than there is to Detroit.

NYC - India (560,000)
AI - Non-stop - 2 cities
One-stop - 35
UA Non-stop -2
One-stop - 12 (may be)
EK - One-stop - 12
QR - One-stop - 12
EY - One-stop - 12+
DL - non-stop 1 (planned)
DL,KL,VS, AF, (9W) - One-stop 4
Two-stop (~12)
Air China - One-stop - 2
China Southern - One-stop - 2
China Eastern - One-stop - 2
TK - One-stop - 2
BA - One-stop - 5
LF - One-stop - 3
WW - One-stop 1 (Planned)
Swiss - ??

DTW-India 100,000 (MI 77,000 + 1/3 Ohio + Windsor 4000), A better served DTW will attract 1/3 Ohio Indians to DTW.
DL,AF(9W) - One-stop 4 cities
Two-stop (~12)
LF - One-stop 2
Two-stop (~12)
WW-One-stop 1 Planned

NYC is a capacity dumped market, 16 carriers dumping capacity and lowering prices. How is DL going to make money when its own Chinese partners are offering $599 fares.

Those one-stop and two-stop flights aren't just serving passengers going to India, though. They're serving a global transportation market, connecting people to their destinations in AMS, CDG, DXB, FRA, or whereever the hub is. Serving multiple destinations in India means there is demand for traffic to and from India to that hub. New York benefits from being able to connect to those options because there is also a lot of demand for travel to New York.

Airline pricing is weird. It's cheaper for me to fly ATW-LAN through DTW than it is for me to fly ATW-DTW direct. Or to fly ORD-AMS through DTW than it is for DTW-AMS direct. I don't know how that math works out, but it is the nature of the industry.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Too many squatters on this thread.

At least three too many squatters - the ones who keep showing up, spouting the same old DTW-is-the-center-of-the-universe, DTW-is-a-better-airport-for-a-flight-to-xxx line - without facts, of course.

dtw2hyd wrote:

I actually have a theory, most Indians who lost jobs in Detroit were forced to move to Atlanta, Dallas, and other places. Hence the hate.

So... you think the good citizens of Atlanta, Dallas, and other places are mad because Indians are moving into their cities? That doesn't speak well for Indians' reputations.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Assuming you know the difference between Metro Detroit MSA/CSA and City of Detroit, even City has $36 Million surplus budget, next year $360 Million surplus budget and got a credit rating bump

I am sure that is supposed to be rationale for why DTW should have a direct flight to India... but I am having trouble connecting the dots...

B752OS wrote:

I wouldn't focus just on populations of Indians. NYC is a much larger business draw than Detroit is. Same goes for tourism - Detroit is simply not a tourist destination while NYC is.

There seems to be a (self-serving, to some posters) contention here that, if even a modicum of VFR traffic exists, city XXX or city YYY deserves a flight to that foreign country. What gets ignored is that air traffic is a two-way street, so to speak, and success is dependent on traffic from both sides.

If there were to be a poll taken among potential fliers in Mumbai, for example, and the question was simply, "Would you be interested in taking a holiday to New York, or would you be interested in taking a holiday to Detroit?", even the most jaded DTW fanatics (except possibly one, who absolutely refuses face reality) should admit that the results would skew overwhelmingly to NYC. The same might be said of business traffic; is it more likely to be headed to New York or Detroit?

Unfortunately, facts don't impress these posters (or "squatters", the latest term some have used to disparage anyone who disagrees with them). And because these know-it-alls continue to spew their drivel, the DTW forum will continue to be the laughing stock of A.net.

seanpmassey wrote:

Those one-stop and two-stop flights aren't just serving passengers going to India, though. They're serving a global transportation market, connecting people to their destinations in AMS, CDG, DXB, FRA, or wherever the hub is. Serving multiple destinations in India means there is demand for traffic to and from India to that hub. New York benefits from being able to connect to those options because there is also a lot of demand for travel to New York.

Another spot-on assessment. And despite the depressed prices of the connecting flights to India, the only realistic comparison to Delta's proposed route is the United non-stop - which generates a substantial premium over all the other airlines' fares.

Despite the denials by all the armchair airline executives here, airline route planners and revenue managers know what they are doing. If someone things they know better... apply for a job there. Let's see what you really know.

alfa164 wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Too many squatters on this thread.

At least three too many squatters - the ones who keep showing up, spouting the same old DTW-is-the-center-of-the-universe, DTW-is-a-better-airport-for-a-flight-to-xxx line - without facts, of course.

dtw2hyd wrote:

I actually have a theory, most Indians who lost jobs in Detroit were forced to move to Atlanta, Dallas, and other places. Hence the hate.

So... you think the good citizens of Atlanta, Dallas, and other places are mad because Indians are moving into their cities? That doesn't speak well for Indians' reputations.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Assuming you know the difference between Metro Detroit MSA/CSA and City of Detroit, even City has $36 Million surplus budget, next year $360 Million surplus budget and got a credit rating bump

I am sure that is supposed to be rationale for why DTW should have a direct flight to India... but I am having trouble connecting the dots...

B752OS wrote:

I wouldn't focus just on populations of Indians. NYC is a much larger business draw than Detroit is. Same goes for tourism - Detroit is simply not a tourist destination while NYC is.

There seems to be a (self-serving, to some posters) contention here that, if even a modicum of VFR traffic exists, city XXX or city YYY deserves a flight to that foreign country. What gets ignored is that air traffic is a two-way street, so to speak, and success is dependent on traffic from both sides.

If there were to be a poll taken among potential fliers in Mumbai, for example, and the question was simply, "Would you be interested in taking a holiday to New York, or would you be interested in taking a holiday to Detroit?", even the most jaded DTW fanatics (except possibly one, who absolutely refuses face reality) should admit that the results would skew overwhelmingly to NYC. The same might be said of business traffic; is it more likely to be headed to New York or Detroit?

Unfortunately, facts don't impress these posters (or "squatters", the latest term some have used to disparage anyone who disagrees with them). And because these know-it-alls continue to spew their drivel, the DTW forum will continue to be the laughing stock of A.net.

seanpmassey wrote:

Those one-stop and two-stop flights aren't just serving passengers going to India, though. They're serving a global transportation market, connecting people to their destinations in AMS, CDG, DXB, FRA, or wherever the hub is. Serving multiple destinations in India means there is demand for traffic to and from India to that hub. New York benefits from being able to connect to those options because there is also a lot of demand for travel to New York.

Another spot-on assessment. And despite the depressed prices of the connecting flights to India, the only realistic comparison to Delta's proposed route is the United non-stop - which generates a substantial premium over all the other airlines' fares.

Despite the denials by all the armchair airline executives here, airline route planners and revenue managers know what they are doing. If someone things they know better... apply for a job there. Let's see what you really know.

Very well said, I agree with KLM617 that DL has less capacity in DTW than it "could" have, but that is DL's business, the way in which it maximizes its profit. If NK or WN start taking market share from DL and DL's profit is threatened, DL will shift growth to DTW, but DTW is the way it is for DL because DL is trying to grow in the large markets (NYC,LAX, BOS, SEA) where it sees long term opportunities. DTW traffic stagnancy and high fares actually make DTW safer in the DL network as its not an unprofitable loss-leader, but rather a profitable core in the DL network, which as was quoted in the 2017 DTW thread: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1355717&p=19997413&hilit=atlanta#p19997413,

Delta has four fortress hubs that perform at similar profitability levels (margins) because they are perfectly sized and well-coordinated. DTW is one of them. For years after the recession, DTW was a challenging hub. It, and the entire Great Lakes region, took a huge financial hit from which it has never fully recovered. The metro and state populations are stagnant at a time that rapid growth is happening in many key metro areas, especially on the coasts. Those are the battlefields. That is where the energy goes. NYC/SEA/LAX/BOS/RDU. Those markets are where the growth has been going. Its not going to ATL in terms of frequency. ATL has seen its capacity grow slightly more than DTW because it is the lowest hanging fruit for upgrades to 739/321s, due to the volume that it produces its stellar margins at. But Atlanta is also the fastest-growing economy of any major city at the moment and it is only accelerating. I LOVE Detroit, but I live in ATL. There is no comparison between the two in terms of economic production and growth.

johns624 wrote:

I live in DTW and my brother is a 320 Cpt for DL and my wife is Platinum. I hardly ever read the DTW thread because one poster is so aggravating...

I live in DTW too. Amen to that. Lots of junk, aggravation, and pumping egos.

klm617 wrote:

pg89 wrote:

Speaking from the India end of the debate, a nonstop or even one stop DTW link is a bit low on the shopping list, considering that LAX still lacks a nonstop to India, BOM has no nonstop beyond EWR, and other Indian gateways are still one stop away from even NYC.

All I said that DTW-BOM stands a better chance of making money than JFK-BOM. My main bone of contention is why DTW has not landed an ME3 carrier yet when the market is so ripe for one with higher than average fares to every where. Thank good WOW Air to a chance to level the field a bit EK and EI would also help.

Given that EK, EY, and QR are in the middle of a slowdown and are scrambling to even maintain existing levels of operation, the addition of a service as long and substantial as DTW is frankly, very unlikely. WOW does make a price dent, but does little to enhance connectivity to India for DTW. At best, it could inspire Norwegian to finally take the plunge and mount flights to both DTW and India from a suitable European hub (LGW, given that the detour to avoid Russian airspace works feasibly).

While DL already co-operates with AF, KL and 9W on one-stop flights to India via LHR, AMS, and CDG, what could be massively game-changing is a decision by DL to mount non-stop flights from its hubs to AUH (or DXB), from where onward connectivity to India and Asia in general gets a huge boost. Given the ongoing collapse of EY, it might be worth a shot, arm-twisting it into aligning with SkyTeam.

pg89 wrote:

While DL already co-operates with AF, KL and 9W on one-stop flights to India via LHR, AMS, and CDG, what could be massively game-changing is a decision by DL to mount non-stop flights from its hubs to AUH (or DXB), from where onward connectivity to India and Asia in general gets a huge boost. Given the ongoing collapse of EY, it might be worth a shot, arm-twisting it into aligning with SkyTeam.

With AF and KL already close to EY, I am surprised DL hasn't approached - or been approached by - them. And, as you stated, even Skyteam might not be out of the question; after all, QR made its move to an alliance already, and EY's attempt at its own "internal" alliance isn't working out particularly well.

seanpmassey wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

seanpmassey wrote:

There are reasons why New York would have significantly more service than Detroit, and it goes beyond population statistics. New York plays a key role in both the global financial industry and the American business community, is the cultural heart of the nation, and acts as one of the country's primary international gateways and tourist destinations. There is just significantly more demand for travel to New York than there is to Detroit.

NYC - India (560,000)
AI - Non-stop - 2 cities
One-stop - 35
UA Non-stop -2
One-stop - 12 (may be)
EK - One-stop - 12
QR - One-stop - 12
EY - One-stop - 12+
DL - non-stop 1 (planned)
DL,KL,VS, AF, (9W) - One-stop 4
Two-stop (~12)
Air China - One-stop - 2
China Southern - One-stop - 2
China Eastern - One-stop - 2
TK - One-stop - 2
BA - One-stop - 5
LF - One-stop - 3
WW - One-stop 1 (Planned)
Swiss - ??

DTW-India 100,000 (MI 77,000 + 1/3 Ohio + Windsor 4000), A better served DTW will attract 1/3 Ohio Indians to DTW.
DL,AF(9W) - One-stop 4 cities
Two-stop (~12)
LF - One-stop 2
Two-stop (~12)
WW-One-stop 1 Planned

NYC is a capacity dumped market, 16 carriers dumping capacity and lowering prices. How is DL going to make money when its own Chinese partners are offering $599 fares.

Those one-stop and two-stop flights aren't just serving passengers going to India, though. They're serving a global transportation market, connecting people to their destinations in AMS, CDG, DXB, FRA, or whereever the hub is. Serving multiple destinations in India means there is demand for traffic to and from India to that hub. New York benefits from being able to connect to those options because there is also a lot of demand for travel to New York.

Airline pricing is weird. It's cheaper for me to fly ATW-LAN through DTW than it is for me to fly ATW-DTW direct. Or to fly ORD-AMS through DTW than it is for DTW-AMS direct. I don't know how that math works out, but it is the nature of the industry.

That's because markets like Detroit with their high airfares is subsidizing those market that are paying less. Why should I a resident of Detroit pay twice as much for flights to Europe just so people in NYC, ORD and BOS can fly for half as much and you guys all rubber stamp that practice.

B752OS wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

nomorerjs wrote:

It used to be one homer on this thread, we now have a second homer that thinks DTW is the only airport in North America

What’s in the water in Detroit or have you all been spending time in “decriminalized states?”

Too much fresh water!!! Second largest in the world.

How is it different from other fanboys asking every airline to come to their town and offer dirt cheap J prices?

NYC with 600,000 Indians and 5 non-stops and probably 10 more carriers offering one-stop to 35 Indian airports. DTW with almost 100,000 has one-stop to 4 Indian airports[/b]? How is that appropriate?

I wouldn't focus just on populations of Indians. NYC is a much larger business draw than Detroit is. Same goes for tourism - Detroit is simply not a tourist destination while NYC is.

Yes but everyone seems to negate the fact that there are South Eastern Michigan residents who want to visit London, Paris and the like or just go with their family to visit relatives so just because Detroit isn't a tourist destination doesn't mean there isn't a market for those who want to travel out of Detroit to Europe at a reasonable air fare.

klm617 wrote:

seanpmassey wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

NYC - India (560,000)
AI - Non-stop - 2 cities
One-stop - 35
UA Non-stop -2
One-stop - 12 (may be)
EK - One-stop - 12
QR - One-stop - 12
EY - One-stop - 12+
DL - non-stop 1 (planned)
DL,KL,VS, AF, (9W) - One-stop 4
Two-stop (~12)
Air China - One-stop - 2
China Southern - One-stop - 2
China Eastern - One-stop - 2
TK - One-stop - 2
BA - One-stop - 5
LF - One-stop - 3
WW - One-stop 1 (Planned)
Swiss - ??

DTW-India 100,000 (MI 77,000 + 1/3 Ohio + Windsor 4000), A better served DTW will attract 1/3 Ohio Indians to DTW.
DL,AF(9W) - One-stop 4 cities
Two-stop (~12)
LF - One-stop 2
Two-stop (~12)
WW-One-stop 1 Planned

NYC is a capacity dumped market, 16 carriers dumping capacity and lowering prices. How is DL going to make money when its own Chinese partners are offering $599 fares.

Those one-stop and two-stop flights aren't just serving passengers going to India, though. They're serving a global transportation market, connecting people to their destinations in AMS, CDG, DXB, FRA, or whereever the hub is. Serving multiple destinations in India means there is demand for traffic to and from India to that hub. New York benefits from being able to connect to those options because there is also a lot of demand for travel to New York.
Airline pricing is weird. It's cheaper for me to fly ATW-LAN through DTW than it is for me to fly ATW-DTW direct. Or to fly ORD-AMS through DTW than it is for DTW-AMS direct. I don't know how that math works out, but it is the nature of the industry.

That's because markets like Detroit with their high airfares is subsidizing those market that are paying less. Why should I a resident of Detroit pay twice as much for flights to Europe just so people in NYC, ORD and BOS can fly for half as much and you guys all rubber stamp that practice.

Could it be because some (three, at least) fliers from Detroit are so obnoxious and asinine that the airlines are trying to discourage them from getting on their planes?

Just asking...

alfa164 wrote:

...I am sure that is supposed to be rationale for why DTW should have a direct flight to India...

Never asked for a DTW-India non-stop. All I wanted one of the SkyTeam members/partners to improve their India-Europe feed. A load restricted (100 pax) Jet Airways 737-MAX, doing 3 weekly to AMS, feeding SkyTeam TATL network will command more fares and improved yields.

All along I thought that was DL's plan until they announced US-BOM non-stop. IMHO, a non-stop will have a 5% success and with terrible yields. I sincerely hope Ed just doing a Trump, announcing what people want to listen in the town hall meetings, and never starts the non-stop.

klm617 wrote:

That's because markets like Detroit with their high airfares is subsidizing those market that are paying less. Why should I a resident of Detroit pay twice as much for flights to Europe just so people in NYC, ORD and BOS can fly for half as much and you guys all rubber stamp that practice.

I want to thank the citizens of DTW catchment for subsidizing my sub $1000 flight to Croatia on AF/DL/OU from BOS last summer.... or should I be thanking the lower cost carriers EI/FI/WW/DY/MT/S4/TP at BOS instead?

klm617 wrote:

Yes but everyone seems to negate the fact that there are South Eastern Michigan residents who want to visit London, Paris and the like or just go with their family to visit relatives so just because Detroit isn't a tourist destination doesn't mean there isn't a market for those who want to travel out of Detroit to Europe at a reasonable air fare.

I agree with you - its a fact that there are SE Michigan residents who want to go to Europe but a great majority of Transatlantic markets depend on European point-of-sale which doesn't bode well for DTW.

Interesting thought about Skyteam approaching EY

NWADTWE16 wrote:

Interesting thought about Skyteam approaching EY

I would guess it has probably been approached, but with EY trying to build its own EY-partnership-/alliance, nothing came of it. With that plan seeming falling into pieces (AB gone; AZ on the ropes), it should look more feasible - unless the EY-EK merger, which has been suggested many times, is actively under discussion.

adamh8297 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

That's because markets like Detroit with their high airfares is subsidizing those market that are paying less. Why should I a resident of Detroit pay twice as much for flights to Europe just so people in NYC, ORD and BOS can fly for half as much and you guys all rubber stamp that practice.

I want to thank the citizens of DTW catchment for subsidizing my sub $1000 flight to Croatia on AF/DL/OU from BOS last summer.... or should I be thanking the lower cost carriers EI/FI/WW/DY/MT/S4/TP at BOS instead?

klm617 wrote:

Yes but everyone seems to negate the fact that there are South Eastern Michigan residents who want to visit London, Paris and the like or just go with their family to visit relatives so just because Detroit isn't a tourist destination doesn't mean there isn't a market for those who want to travel out of Detroit to Europe at a reasonable air fare.

I agree with you - its a fact that there are SE Michigan residents who want to go to Europe but a great majority of Transatlantic markets depend on European point-of-sale which doesn't bode well for DTW.

What? People don’t want to vacation in DTW? Who would have thought that.

adamh8297 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

That's because markets like Detroit with their high airfares is subsidizing those market that are paying less. Why should I a resident of Detroit pay twice as much for flights to Europe just so people in NYC, ORD and BOS can fly for half as much and you guys all rubber stamp that practice.

I want to thank the citizens of DTW catchment for subsidizing my sub $1000 flight to Croatia on AF/DL/OU from BOS last summer.... or should I be thanking the lower cost carriers EI/FI/WW/DY/MT/S4/TP at BOS instead?

klm617 wrote:

Yes but everyone seems to negate the fact that there are South Eastern Michigan residents who want to visit London, Paris and the like or just go with their family to visit relatives so just because Detroit isn't a tourist destination doesn't mean there isn't a market for those who want to travel out of Detroit to Europe at a reasonable air fare.

I agree with you - its a fact that there are SE Michigan residents who want to go to Europe but a great majority of Transatlantic markets depend on European point-of-sale which doesn't bode well for DTW.

Bone of the carriers you listed serve serve Croatia so no it is the people of DTW, IND, ATL and the like that are subsidizing your low fares. It's time though for some of these low cost carriers to spread themselves out so we can put an end to this price fixing.

klm617 wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

That's because markets like Detroit with their high airfares is subsidizing those market that are paying less. Why should I a resident of Detroit pay twice as much for flights to Europe just so people in NYC, ORD and BOS can fly for half as much and you guys all rubber stamp that practice.

I want to thank the citizens of DTW catchment for subsidizing my sub $1000 flight to Croatia on AF/DL/OU from BOS last summer.... or should I be thanking the lower cost carriers EI/FI/WW/DY/MT/S4/TP at BOS instead?

klm617 wrote:

Yes but everyone seems to negate the fact that there are South Eastern Michigan residents who want to visit London, Paris and the like or just go with their family to visit relatives so just because Detroit isn't a tourist destination doesn't mean there isn't a market for those who want to travel out of Detroit to Europe at a reasonable air fare.

I agree with you - its a fact that there are SE Michigan residents who want to go to Europe but a great majority of Transatlantic markets depend on European point-of-sale which doesn't bode well for DTW.

Bone of the carriers you listed serve serve Croatia so no it is the people of DTW, IND, ATL and the like that are subsidizing your low fares. It's time though for some of these low cost carriers to spread themselves out so we can put an end to this price fixing.

I think you mean you have a "bone" about any carrier that won't kowtow to your expectation for a cheap (and probably money-losing) flight to your preferred destination-of-the-day... just to cater to your personal whims... right?

klm617 wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

That's because markets like Detroit with their high airfares is subsidizing those market that are paying less. Why should I a resident of Detroit pay twice as much for flights to Europe just so people in NYC, ORD and BOS can fly for half as much and you guys all rubber stamp that practice.

I want to thank the citizens of DTW catchment for subsidizing my sub $1000 flight to Croatia on AF/DL/OU from BOS last summer.... or should I be thanking the lower cost carriers EI/FI/WW/DY/MT/S4/TP at BOS instead?

klm617 wrote:

Yes but everyone seems to negate the fact that there are South Eastern Michigan residents who want to visit London, Paris and the like or just go with their family to visit relatives so just because Detroit isn't a tourist destination doesn't mean there isn't a market for those who want to travel out of Detroit to Europe at a reasonable air fare.

I agree with you - its a fact that there are SE Michigan residents who want to go to Europe but a great majority of Transatlantic markets depend on European point-of-sale which doesn't bode well for DTW.

Bone of the carriers you listed serve serve Croatia so no it is the people of DTW, IND, ATL and the like that are subsidizing your low fares. It's time though for some of these low cost carriers to spread themselves out so we can put an end to this price fixing.

Are you sure about that? Did you happen to research it before you posted?

adamh8297 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

I want to thank the citizens of DTW catchment for subsidizing my sub $1000 flight to Croatia on AF/DL/OU from BOS last summer.... or should I be thanking the lower cost carriers EI/FI/WW/DY/MT/S4/TP at BOS instead?




I agree with you - its a fact that there are SE Michigan residents who want to go to Europe but a great majority of Transatlantic markets depend on European point-of-sale which doesn't bode well for DTW.

Bone of the carriers you listed serve serve Croatia so no it is the people of DTW, IND, ATL and the like that are subsidizing your low fares. It's time though for some of these low cost carriers to spread themselves out so we can put an end to this price fixing.

Are you sure about that? Did you happen to research it before you posted?

Yes I see that EI serves Split.

klm617 wrote:

I'm not saying ORD-AKL shouldn't be flown what I am saying is that using the same parameters that justify ORD-AKL one could jusitfy DTW-MAN, DTW-DUB and EK service to DXB.

You CAN'T use the same parameters. ORD-AKL is going from one Star Alliance hub to another. It has feed at both ends. Detroit to MAN or DUB is hub to spoke with no feed or connections on the far end.

johns624 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

I'm not sayin ORD-AKL shouldn't be flown what I am saying is that using the same parameters that justify ORD-AKL one could jusitfy DTW-MAN, DTW-DUB and EK service to DXB.

You CAN'T use the same parameters. ORD-AKL is going from one Star Alliance hub to another. It has feed at both ends. Detroit to MAN or DUB is hub to spoke with no feed or connections on the far end.

You must be new to the DTW topic. Reality is not a part of the discussion; if he/she/it wants to take a trip (in this case, to MAN or DUB), then the airline should be obligated to provide a convenient, non-stop flight there - at a fare of, say, $300.00 or less.

Those are the rules ... facts, logic, and real economics have no place here. You should learn that fast!

If DL really hated DTW don’t you think they’d relocate their international service to another hub!!?

if DUB won’t work then why does EI publicly say they want to fly it?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishc ... lights.amp

flymco753 wrote:

if DUB won’t work then why does EI publicly say they want to fly it?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishc ... lights.amp

That article doesn't say "they want to fly it"; it says they were considering ten cities, and Detroit was one of them. It also says nothing about the criteria they were using to decide which to choose.

The fact is: if they want to fly it, nothing is stopping them. So they must not want to fly there very badly.

alfa164 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

if DUB won’t work then why does EI publicly say they want to fly it?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishc ... lights.amp

That article doesn't say "they want to fly it"; it says they were considering ten cities, and Detroit was one of them. It also says nothing about the criteria they were using to decide which to choose.

The fact is: if they want to fly it, nothing is stopping them. So they must not want to fly there very badly.

The inability of the airport to work with them to make it happen that can be a huge road block.