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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:50 pm

SRQ is in a geographically bad spot. G4 makes the most sense because it’s evident DL wont do it. F9 already has RSW and TPA locked down. They seem to be going after unserved routes too so if Frontier did go to Sarasota it’d probably be from ISP, PVD, BUF, MKE, CMH, CVG, CLE, MSP, and DEN.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:23 pm

flymco753 wrote:
DTW’s incentive program is decent. ATL, CLT & MSP have among some of the worst incentives that I’ve seen on their airports websites. That’s probably why airlines don’t flock to these airports.

Has anyone driven past the north exit at the airport? When I came in I asked my grandparents to take us north to see it and it looks sharp so far. I can’t imagine what it’ll look like with vegetation.

The Berry Terminal is completely gone, next up the Smith.



I was reading that Atlanta has an incentive program that waves 2 years of landing fees for any new service that is started. How does that compare to Detroit's incentive program and does DTW wave landing fees for new routes and entrants into this market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jordanh
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:21 am

klm617 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Thats why I think TK is the best fit personally. It can capture BEY, BOM, and DEL nicely.

I tend to agree, but I don't know what TK would offer above and beyond what the established players offer - other than possibly some cut-rate, desperate-for-traffic fares.

And that's what this market needs to stimulate growth. We already know that DL has most of the business traffic sewn up. So growth right now need to come from putting people in the air that normally couldn't afford to travel or by bringing the leakage travelers back to DTW. Hence the need for EI and EK.


You are assuming there is growth to be stimulated - and that is usually a faulty assumption.

Generally, when a new carrier enters a market, they do so by stealing passengers from other airlines. Where would TK get its traffic? You say "DL has most of the business market sewn up"; it looks like LH has the lowest fares to most of the destinations mentioned. So TK comes in... undercuts LH... and, in all probability, LH sees no reason to stay. You aren't "stimulating growth"; you are just playing musical chairs with airlines in order to spot a few new liveries.

You always seem to think there is a vast, untapped market out there... but Detroit, like most other hub cities, is a very mature, very well-served market. The only think your fantasies would accomplish is drive someone out of the market to make room for someone new.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:24 am

jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
I tend to agree, but I don't know what TK would offer above and beyond what the established players offer - other than possibly some cut-rate, desperate-for-traffic fares.

And that's what this market needs to stimulate growth. We already know that DL has most of the business traffic sewn up. So growth right now need to come from putting people in the air that normally couldn't afford to travel or by bringing the leakage travelers back to DTW. Hence the need for EI and EK.


You are assuming there is growth to be stimulated - and that is usually a faulty assumption.

Generally, when a new carrier enters a market, they do so by stealing passengers from other airlines. Where would TK get its traffic? You say "DL has most of the business market sewn up"; it looks like LH has the lowest fares to most of the destinations mentioned. So TK comes in... undercuts LH... and, in all probability, LH sees no reason to stay. You aren't "stimulating growth"; you are just playing musical chairs with airlines in order to spot a few new liveries.

You always seem to think there is a vast, untapped market out there... but Detroit, like most other hub cities, is a very mature, very well-served market. The only think your fantasies would accomplish is drive someone out of the market to make room for someone new.


And that is another a.net myth. That is simply not true and airline like TK can stimulate traffic with their lower fares people who couldn't otherwise afford to fly or that are driving to ORD. Certainly WW, NK and Allegiant have proven that with their rock bottom prices. So it is also a faulty assumption that growth is not possible otherwise ORD, CLT and ATL would never get ne service. A loyal LH or DL flyer is not going to jump ship to TK and LH is not cheaper than DL to Europe they for the most part quote the same price. So to say DTW is adequately served is correct in some cases but in other there is certainly room for additional options EI abd EK are perfect examples of logical additions.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jordanh
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:25 pm

klm617 wrote:
jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
And that's what this market needs to stimulate growth. We already know that DL has most of the business traffic sewn up. So growth right now need to come from putting people in the air that normally couldn't afford to travel or by bringing the leakage travelers back to DTW. Hence the need for EI and EK.

You are assuming there is growth to be stimulated - and that is usually a faulty assumption.
Generally, when a new carrier enters a market, they do so by stealing passengers from other airlines. Where would TK get its traffic? You say "DL has most of the business market sewn up"; it looks like LH has the lowest fares to most of the destinations mentioned. So TK comes in... undercuts LH... and, in all probability, LH sees no reason to stay. You aren't "stimulating growth"; you are just playing musical chairs with airlines in order to spot a few new liveries.
You always seem to think there is a vast, untapped market out there... but Detroit, like most other hub cities, is a very mature, very well-served market. The only think your fantasies would accomplish is drive someone out of the market to make room for someone new.

And that is another a.net myth. That is simply not true and airline like TK can stimulate traffic with their lower fares people who couldn't otherwise afford to fly or that are driving to ORD. Certainly WW, NK and Allegiant have proven that with their rock bottom prices. So it is also a faulty assumption that growth is not possible otherwise ORD, CLT and ATL would never get ne service. A loyal LH or DL flyer is not going to jump ship to TK and LH is not cheaper than DL to Europe they for the most part quote the same price. So to say DTW is adequately served is correct in some cases but in other there is certainly room for additional options EI abd EK are perfect examples of logical additions.


You saying "that is another a.net myth" is like your president shouting "Fake News!" all the time.

Prove it. Otherwise your claims are just a personal myth.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:44 pm

jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
jordanh wrote:
You are assuming there is growth to be stimulated - and that is usually a faulty assumption.
Generally, when a new carrier enters a market, they do so by stealing passengers from other airlines. Where would TK get its traffic? You say "DL has most of the business market sewn up"; it looks like LH has the lowest fares to most of the destinations mentioned. So TK comes in... undercuts LH... and, in all probability, LH sees no reason to stay. You aren't "stimulating growth"; you are just playing musical chairs with airlines in order to spot a few new liveries.
You always seem to think there is a vast, untapped market out there... but Detroit, like most other hub cities, is a very mature, very well-served market. The only think your fantasies would accomplish is drive someone out of the market to make room for someone new.

And that is another a.net myth. That is simply not true and airline like TK can stimulate traffic with their lower fares people who couldn't otherwise afford to fly or that are driving to ORD. Certainly WW, NK and Allegiant have proven that with their rock bottom prices. So it is also a faulty assumption that growth is not possible otherwise ORD, CLT and ATL would never get ne service. A loyal LH or DL flyer is not going to jump ship to TK and LH is not cheaper than DL to Europe they for the most part quote the same price. So to say DTW is adequately served is correct in some cases but in other there is certainly room for additional options EI abd EK are perfect examples of logical additions.


You saying "that is another a.net myth" is like your president shouting "Fake News!" all the time.

Prove it. Otherwise your claims are just a personal myth.



As are yours. WW proves that fact my friend.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jordanh
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:41 pm

klm617 wrote:
jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
And that is another a.net myth. That is simply not true and airline like TK can stimulate traffic with their lower fares people who couldn't otherwise afford to fly or that are driving to ORD. Certainly WW, NK and Allegiant have proven that with their rock bottom prices. So it is also a faulty assumption that growth is not possible otherwise ORD, CLT and ATL would never get ne service. A loyal LH or DL flyer is not going to jump ship to TK and LH is not cheaper than DL to Europe they for the most part quote the same price. So to say DTW is adequately served is correct in some cases but in other there is certainly room for additional options EI abd EK are perfect examples of logical additions.

You saying "that is another a.net myth" is like your president shouting "Fake News!" all the time.
Prove it. Otherwise your claims are just a personal myth.

As are yours. WW proves that fact my friend.


Weren't you the one saying you didn't expect WW to be successful? :roll:

WW hasn't proven anything yet - and you don't yet know if the passengers they do carry are deflecting from other carriers. Until that information is available, you are still following your personal myth...
 
2Holer4Longhaul
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:55 pm

klm617 wrote:
jordanh wrote:
klm617 wrote:
And that is another a.net myth. That is simply not true and airline like TK can stimulate traffic with their lower fares people who couldn't otherwise afford to fly or that are driving to ORD. Certainly WW, NK and Allegiant have proven that with their rock bottom prices. So it is also a faulty assumption that growth is not possible otherwise ORD, CLT and ATL would never get ne service. A loyal LH or DL flyer is not going to jump ship to TK and LH is not cheaper than DL to Europe they for the most part quote the same price. So to say DTW is adequately served is correct in some cases but in other there is certainly room for additional options EI abd EK are perfect examples of logical additions.


You saying "that is another a.net myth" is like your president shouting "Fake News!" all the time.

Prove it. Otherwise your claims are just a personal myth.



As are yours. WW proves that fact my friend.
A route existing proves absolutely bupkis. Zilch. Nothing. Nada. Rien.
Actual stats can prove your claims, nothing else.
And if you want to know why we're pinning the burden of proof for your outlandish claims on you, look up Russell's Teapot.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:19 pm

NK adds onto markets. SAN was the latest example of them adding a medium sized, long haul, domestic market that can successfully build off what DL already had.

In the case of PDX, everyone tried to steal from everyone in a market that isn’t big enough for 3 carriers. There was some stimulation but of course it wasn’t enough to pack a 3rd plane. Both DL and AS rely off connections on both ends to make these flights work.

If you make a forecast of WW’s new KEF flight by taking historical data and basically adding it to recent data. With that data, WOW should almost or nearly triple the amount of travel to KEF this year since it has nearly doubled for 2 years in a row. Financial forecasts are more difficult. Generally those are the things that make or break service.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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jordanh
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:40 pm

flymco753 wrote:
If you make a forecast of WW’s new KEF flight by taking historical data and basically adding it to recent data. With that data, WOW should almost or nearly triple the amount of travel to KEF this year since it has nearly doubled for 2 years in a row. Financial forecasts are more difficult. Generally those are the things that make or break service.


They may double or triple the traffic to or through KEF... but at whose expense? Are you trying to say two or three times as many people/families can suddenly afford to take a European vacation?

You will need real numbers to make that claim.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:50 pm

There is a certain segment of leisure demand that is completely price-elastic, and opportunistic, and fully discretionary. These are the people that might otherwise not be making the trip, completely destination agnostic, or might otherwise be spending their money on other things.

This is the equivalent, of "I saw a cheap fare to XXX, lets go there for a long weekend". We've all done that at some point.

WW and low-fares to KEF are naturally going to stimulate that type of demand, particularly that its got that hip/YOLO/FOMO type of appeal, and more exotic that a weekend to many other domestic destinations.

I don't have real numbers to back that up, but again, I hear the same thing from some of the younger/single professionals I work with that will travel as much as possible, baring time and money allows.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:59 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
There is a certain segment of leisure demand that is completely price-elastic, and opportunistic, and fully discretionary. These are the people that might otherwise not be making the trip, completely destination agnostic, or might otherwise be spending their money on other things.

This is the equivalent, of "I saw a cheap fare to XXX, lets go there for a long weekend". We've all done that at some point.

WW and low-fares to KEF are naturally going to stimulate that type of demand, particularly that its got that hip/YOLO/FOMO type of appeal, and more exotic that a weekend to many other domestic destinations.

I don't have real numbers to back that up, but again, I hear the same thing from some of the younger/single professionals I work with that will travel as much as possible, baring time and money allows.



And the Shamrock will do the same if and when they add DTW-DUB with a bit more reliability and stability as it is a long established carrier.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:02 pm

jordanh wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
If you make a forecast of WW’s new KEF flight by taking historical data and basically adding it to recent data. With that data, WOW should almost or nearly triple the amount of travel to KEF this year since it has nearly doubled for 2 years in a row. Financial forecasts are more difficult. Generally those are the things that make or break service.


They may double or triple the traffic to or through KEF... but at whose expense? Are you trying to say two or three times as many people/families can suddenly afford to take a European vacation?

You will need real numbers to make that claim.
No, using KEF as their final destination. Plus, the numbers aren't coming as an expense but rather, natural growth. FWIW, the forecast I did is for total annual pax. Say, 10 pax used to fly a route per day, it increased by 7 the next year, that's "nearly" double.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:38 pm

jordanh wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
If you make a forecast of WW’s new KEF flight by taking historical data and basically adding it to recent data. With that data, WOW should almost or nearly triple the amount of travel to KEF this year since it has nearly doubled for 2 years in a row. Financial forecasts are more difficult. Generally those are the things that make or break service.


They may double or triple the traffic to or through KEF... but at whose expense? Are you trying to say two or three times as many people/families can suddenly afford to take a European vacation?

You will need real numbers to make that claim.



Absolutely if people can suddenly get a ticket to Europe for half of what Delta is charging they can for sure afford a trip to Europe when it wasn't and option before.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:07 pm

Great discussion but I still am puzzled why we have to pay high fares and be called niche, low-yield and not-worth market the same time?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:02 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Great discussion but I still am puzzled why we have to pay high fares and be called niche, low-yield and not-worth market the same time?
There’s one market I think everyone has agreed that “if they could they would” it would be a BEY route. Other than that, ORD.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:34 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
And before KLM617 makes some ludicrous claim that they are equal because available seat-miles from ATL are higher, let's point out that this is absurd. ASM is higher because distance is higher even though capacity is lower.


I suggest you find something more productive to do with your time than troll him. Myself and others ignore him and attempt to reboot this thread, but out postings are quickly drowned out by this perpetual nonsense.


I agree. In an effort to get this back on track, I think we should establish that yes there is room for some expansion but its important to know the limits of any market.

Domestically: ICT, ABQ, and SMF seem like logical adds.

Internationally, there is no need for DTW to have service to Poland or India nonstop. None. What is logical would be:

1) EK to DXB or QR to DOH
2) TK to IST


The largest unserved international markets from DTW in 2016 that have 20 or more PDEW were:

1) BEY at 50 PDEW
2) BOM at 28 PDEW
3) AUA at 27 PDEW
4) HKG at 25 PDEW
5) YVR at 24 PDEW
6) DEL at 23 PDEW
7) STR at 20 PDEW
8) SJO at 20 PDEW

DTW-India bounces between 110-140 PDEW depending on the year.

Of these, AUA, YVR, and SJO are very seasonal and heavy towards Saturday and Sunday travel.
Well DL flies YVR in the summer on Saturday's with 2 flights. Domestically, PNS, VPS, and DAB would be the next seasonal markets that need to be tackled, they seem like they're in good shape in Q1 and Q2. DL won't add PNS because ATL, however G4 is a good candidate to tackle VPS and DAB. While they don't fly to DAB, SFB is a good alternative and can absorb some of that DAB traffic along with visitors to the northern Orlando suburbs. ABQ would be a good summer seasonal option, I hope that WN could try it out on Saturdays because for DL, it's ATL. SJC, SMF, and ELP are now the largest unserved domestic markets in the lower 48. ANC and HNL are large but wont be done by Delta.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:49 pm

F9's new RDU flight isn't selling for some reason. After doing an analysis, RDU was one of the largest single carrier routes from DTW. This service should work, however I think a lack of advertisement has a lot in play. Not one new station in the Detroit area reported that Frontier would start these flights, so of course it won't do good if nobody knows about it. The only advertisements are on the Raleigh end and DTW's twitter page.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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bhxdtw
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:27 pm

ELP I assume is largely used by the automotive industry? My former father in law used to connect thru ATL once a week or so to get to ELP, from there they would cross the border to Mexico where the auto plant where he visited was at.
I have a few friends at work also who have been talking about this 'low cost' airline who flies thru Iceland. They're planning trips they never would have taken before... I just find it nice to hear people talk like that. And yeah they don't obviously look at all the fees etc.to take bags or book seats or food... But it excites them and gets them thinking of travel which can only be good. Its like watching market stimulation in progress. Lol.
I do hope that EI comes. I'd for one shell out for their business class product to get to BHX
I think for the money it's very solid. Obviously not SQ or QR solid, but its better than what it used to be.

Cheers
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:33 pm

bhxdtw wrote:
ELP I assume is largely used by the automotive industry? My former father in law used to connect thru ATL once a week or so to get to ELP, from there they would cross the border to Mexico where the auto plant where he visited was at.
I have a few friends at work also who have been talking about this 'low cost' airline who flies thru Iceland. They're planning trips they never would have taken before... I just find it nice to hear people talk like that. And yeah they don't obviously look at all the fees etc.to take bags or book seats or food... But it excites them and gets them thinking of travel which can only be good. Its like watching market stimulation in progress. Lol.
I do hope that EI comes. I'd for one shell out for their business class product to get to BHX
I think for the money it's very solid. Obviously not SQ or QR solid, but its better than what it used to be.

Cheers
The majority of ELP is high yielding, front paying, auto traffic. This route to me would scream Delta's name, but they don't seem too interested in it. I don't see why they can't make a daily A319 work. SJC has a mix of leisure and high yielding pax, so if there's any priority it's for DL to add SJC first, then ELP.
Resort, and other ground transportation options are on level 1.

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winginit
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:33 pm

klm617 wrote:
I was reading that Atlanta has an incentive program that waves 2 years of landing fees for any new service that is started. How does that compare to Detroit's incentive program and does DTW wave landing fees for new routes and entrants into this market.


Where was it that you were reading this now? Please provide a source, as it's highly unlikely that ATL would waive 2 years of landing fees for 'any new service'. Targeted long-haul widebody markets? Maybe, but 'all new service'? Absolutely not.

Looking forward to your source.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:03 pm

klm617 wrote:
...
I was reading that Atlanta has an incentive program that waves 2 years of landing fees for any new service that is started. How does that compare to Detroit's incentive program and does DTW wave landing fees for new routes and entrants into this market.


DTW ASIP/ACIP site

https://www.metroairport.com/business/d ... ir-service
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:46 pm

flymco753 wrote:
bhxdtw wrote:
ELP I assume is largely used by the automotive industry? My former father in law used to connect thru ATL once a week or so to get to ELP, from there they would cross the border to Mexico where the auto plant where he visited was at.
I have a few friends at work also who have been talking about this 'low cost' airline who flies thru Iceland. They're planning trips they never would have taken before... I just find it nice to hear people talk like that. And yeah they don't obviously look at all the fees etc.to take bags or book seats or food... But it excites them and gets them thinking of travel which can only be good. Its like watching market stimulation in progress. Lol.
I do hope that EI comes. I'd for one shell out for their business class product to get to BHX
I think for the money it's very solid. Obviously not SQ or QR solid, but its better than what it used to be.

Cheers
The majority of ELP is high yielding, front paying, auto traffic. This route to me would scream Delta's name, but they don't seem too interested in it. I don't see why they can't make a daily A319 work. SJC has a mix of leisure and high yielding pax, so if there's any priority it's for DL to add SJC first, then ELP.

Automotive industry traffic doesn't buy front-cabin fares. High(er)-yielding, yes since its business travel that's more schedule-driven, but they are not buying domestic F. Most travel policies of OEM and suppliers won't pay for J to Europe unless you are an executive, let alone Texas/Northern Mexico.

More like frequent flyer upgrades, with Y fares that are probably higher than domestic F is some markets.

In theory more like an E-175 type market, if it has the legs.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:00 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I was reading that Atlanta has an incentive program that waves 2 years of landing fees for any new service that is started. How does that compare to Detroit's incentive program and does DTW wave landing fees for new routes and entrants into this market.


Where was it that you were reading this now? Please provide a source, as it's highly unlikely that ATL would waive 2 years of landing fees for 'any new service'. Targeted long-haul widebody markets? Maybe, but 'all new service'? Absolutely not.

Looking forward to your source.


Are there still ATL incentives for any carrier launching direct flights to India? I remember seeing them a few years ago - they were not limited to India, but rather various regions including India and would result in a 2 year waiver of landing fees: https://www.usatoday.com/story/todayint ... s/8044785/ Copied from the Mumbai thread.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
klm617 wrote:
...
I was reading that Atlanta has an incentive program that waves 2 years of landing fees for any new service that is started. How does that compare to Detroit's incentive program and does DTW wave landing fees for new routes and entrants into this market.


DTW ASIP/ACIP site

https://www.metroairport.com/business/d ... ir-service


I have seen that before and it really doesn't seem competitive or generous at all as far as new carriers entering the Detroit Market maybe I'm wrong but it seems like a very weak incentive for and airlines to start service to DTW,
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:09 pm

bhxdtw wrote:
ELP I assume is largely used by the automotive industry? My former father in law used to connect thru ATL once a week or so to get to ELP, from there they would cross the border to Mexico where the auto plant where he visited was at.
I have a few friends at work also who have been talking about this 'low cost' airline who flies thru Iceland. They're planning trips they never would have taken before... I just find it nice to hear people talk like that. And yeah they don't obviously look at all the fees etc.to take bags or book seats or food... But it excites them and gets them thinking of travel which can only be good. Its like watching market stimulation in progress. Lol.
I do hope that EI comes. I'd for one shell out for their business class product to get to BHX
I think for the money it's very solid. Obviously not SQ or QR solid, but its better than what it used to be.

Cheers



I agree it is exciting hearing people talk about visiting places that would otherwise not be possible if it wasn't for WOW Air and EI would do the same but with a higher level of reliability. My neighbors are visiting Ireland this summer because they can now afford it and traveling with WOW Air.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:24 pm

klm617 wrote:
...
I have seen that before and it really doesn't seem competitive or generous at all as far as new carriers entering the Detroit Market maybe I'm wrong but it seems like a very weak incentive for and airlines to start service to DTW,


Agreed, other ASIPs trying their best to take advantage of FAA's subsidy vs incentive guidelines. A study in 2016 found few top airports spent $171 Million on incentives between 2012-15.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=rjpa20
 
winginit
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:36 pm

klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
klm617 wrote:
...
I was reading that Atlanta has an incentive program that waves 2 years of landing fees for any new service that is started. How does that compare to Detroit's incentive program and does DTW wave landing fees for new routes and entrants into this market.


DTW ASIP/ACIP site

https://www.metroairport.com/business/d ... ir-service


I have seen that before and it really doesn't seem competitive or generous at all as far as new carriers entering the Detroit Market maybe I'm wrong but it seems like a very weak incentive for and airlines to start service to DTW,


Not generous compared to what? What's your point of comparison? Specifics please.
 
klm617
Posts: 2697
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:06 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:


I have seen that before and it really doesn't seem competitive or generous at all as far as new carriers entering the Detroit Market maybe I'm wrong but it seems like a very weak incentive for and airlines to start service to DTW,


Not generous compared to what? What's your point of comparison? Specifics please.



They are nothing earth shattering that is going to make an airline say hey I want to be in Detroit by the incentive that is offered. The low amount of incentives plus the fact that the WCAA has shown a great inability to market the airport effectively makes the opportunities far and few between. Detroit is in a very unique spot being one of the few airline hubs to show little growth over the past 10 years MSP being the other so even though it has a hub carrier with a lot of service it just can't sit on that and hope for the best. It needs to be proactive and creative in the way it markets itself to bring perspective suitors into the market. It is a well known fact that Delta is going to rely less and less on Detroit as a connecting point for passenger as it is projected that connection traffic is expected to decline year over year in favor of O/D traffic. Proof of that is that DL had less emplacements in 2017 at Detroit than it did in 2016. Delta plays nothing more than a shell game in this market when it add in one place it subtracts in another.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
winginit
Posts: 1408
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:01 pm

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:

I have seen that before and it really doesn't seem competitive or generous at all as far as new carriers entering the Detroit Market maybe I'm wrong but it seems like a very weak incentive for and airlines to start service to DTW,


Not generous compared to what? What's your point of comparison? Specifics please.



They are nothing earth shattering that is going to make an airline say hey I want to be in Detroit by the incentive that is offered. The low amount of incentives plus the fact that the WCAA has shown a great inability to market the airport effectively makes the opportunities far and few between. Detroit is in a very unique spot being one of the few airline hubs to show little growth over the past 10 years MSP being the other so even though it has a hub carrier with a lot of service it just can't sit on that and hope for the best. It needs to be proactive and creative in the way it markets itself to bring perspective suitors into the market. It is a well known fact that Delta is going to rely less and less on Detroit as a connecting point for passenger as it is projected that connection traffic is expected to decline year over year in favor of O/D traffic. Proof of that is that DL had less emplacements in 2017 at Detroit than it did in 2016. Delta plays nothing more than a shell game in this market when it add in one place it subtracts in another.


Again, you have said that DTW has a 'low amount of incentives'. That's an opinion unless you can quantify it along with a comparison to another airport. Your claims imply that you can do so. If not, mark your statement as an opinion or speculation.
 
klm617
Posts: 2697
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:32 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:

Not generous compared to what? What's your point of comparison? Specifics please.



They are nothing earth shattering that is going to make an airline say hey I want to be in Detroit by the incentive that is offered. The low amount of incentives plus the fact that the WCAA has shown a great inability to market the airport effectively makes the opportunities far and few between. Detroit is in a very unique spot being one of the few airline hubs to show little growth over the past 10 years MSP being the other so even though it has a hub carrier with a lot of service it just can't sit on that and hope for the best. It needs to be proactive and creative in the way it markets itself to bring perspective suitors into the market. It is a well known fact that Delta is going to rely less and less on Detroit as a connecting point for passenger as it is projected that connection traffic is expected to decline year over year in favor of O/D traffic. Proof of that is that DL had less emplacements in 2017 at Detroit than it did in 2016. Delta plays nothing more than a shell game in this market when it add in one place it subtracts in another.


Again, you have said that DTW has a 'low amount of incentives'. That's an opinion unless you can quantify it along with a comparison to another airport. Your claims imply that you can do so. If not, mark your statement as an opinion or speculation.



Again the proof is in the pudding their incentives attract noting not even their vested hub carrier is willing to add anything substantial in the market because the incentives aren't worth it. It's time for Detroit to up it's game.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
adamh8297
Posts: 2754
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:41 pm

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:


They are nothing earth shattering that is going to make an airline say hey I want to be in Detroit by the incentive that is offered. The low amount of incentives plus the fact that the WCAA has shown a great inability to market the airport effectively makes the opportunities far and few between. Detroit is in a very unique spot being one of the few airline hubs to show little growth over the past 10 years MSP being the other so even though it has a hub carrier with a lot of service it just can't sit on that and hope for the best. It needs to be proactive and creative in the way it markets itself to bring perspective suitors into the market. It is a well known fact that Delta is going to rely less and less on Detroit as a connecting point for passenger as it is projected that connection traffic is expected to decline year over year in favor of O/D traffic. Proof of that is that DL had less emplacements in 2017 at Detroit than it did in 2016. Delta plays nothing more than a shell game in this market when it add in one place it subtracts in another.


Again, you have said that DTW has a 'low amount of incentives'. That's an opinion unless you can quantify it along with a comparison to another airport. Your claims imply that you can do so. If not, mark your statement as an opinion or speculation.



Again the proof is in the pudding their incentives attract noting not even their vested hub carrier is willing to add anything substantial in the market because the incentives aren't worth it. It's time for Detroit to up it's game.


Here's some rare facts.

DTW is giving out incentives for far more options than BOS. BOS is only limited to international routes in Central America, Mexico City (though that will go away with 2 carriers serving it), South America, Asia, Middle East, and Africa but does give rebates for landing fees for 2 years and advertising/marketing support.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN

2018 Flights: B6 BOS-BGI-BOS, WN BOS-MDW-BOS, B6 BOS-PDX-BOS
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5212
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:22 pm

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:


They are nothing earth shattering that is going to make an airline say hey I want to be in Detroit by the incentive that is offered. The low amount of incentives plus the fact that the WCAA has shown a great inability to market the airport effectively makes the opportunities far and few between. Detroit is in a very unique spot being one of the few airline hubs to show little growth over the past 10 years MSP being the other so even though it has a hub carrier with a lot of service it just can't sit on that and hope for the best. It needs to be proactive and creative in the way it markets itself to bring perspective suitors into the market. It is a well known fact that Delta is going to rely less and less on Detroit as a connecting point for passenger as it is projected that connection traffic is expected to decline year over year in favor of O/D traffic. Proof of that is that DL had less emplacements in 2017 at Detroit than it did in 2016. Delta plays nothing more than a shell game in this market when it add in one place it subtracts in another.


Again, you have said that DTW has a 'low amount of incentives'. That's an opinion unless you can quantify it along with a comparison to another airport. Your claims imply that you can do so. If not, mark your statement as an opinion or speculation.



Again the proof is in the pudding their incentives attract noting not even their vested hub carrier is willing to add anything substantial in the market because the incentives aren't worth it. It's time for Detroit to up it's game.


I suppose the fact that DTW cant support flights to those destinations with or without incentives is lost on you?
Next flight: IAH-PDX-IAH on UA
 
winginit
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:24 pm

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:


They are nothing earth shattering that is going to make an airline say hey I want to be in Detroit by the incentive that is offered. The low amount of incentives plus the fact that the WCAA has shown a great inability to market the airport effectively makes the opportunities far and few between. Detroit is in a very unique spot being one of the few airline hubs to show little growth over the past 10 years MSP being the other so even though it has a hub carrier with a lot of service it just can't sit on that and hope for the best. It needs to be proactive and creative in the way it markets itself to bring perspective suitors into the market. It is a well known fact that Delta is going to rely less and less on Detroit as a connecting point for passenger as it is projected that connection traffic is expected to decline year over year in favor of O/D traffic. Proof of that is that DL had less emplacements in 2017 at Detroit than it did in 2016. Delta plays nothing more than a shell game in this market when it add in one place it subtracts in another.


Again, you have said that DTW has a 'low amount of incentives'. That's an opinion unless you can quantify it along with a comparison to another airport. Your claims imply that you can do so. If not, mark your statement as an opinion or speculation.



Again the proof is in the pudding their incentives attract noting not even their vested hub carrier is willing to add anything substantial in the market because the incentives aren't worth it. It's time for Detroit to up it's game.


So you've essentially admitted here that you have no idea what the DTW incentives are nor do you have comparison data to firmly conclude that they are or are not competitive with what other comparable airports are offering. Let's go ahead and admit that because if that weren't true you'd be bringing data to the table and you're not, as usual.

Secondly, you're concluding that the reason carriers aren't adding service to DTW (even though in the short terms many have done exactly that as has been shown to you with data numerous times) is because of a lack of incentives - that's speculation. Maybe DTW is offering incentives that are comparable with equivalent airports but for other strategic reasons (like economic growth metrics or the competitive landscape) airlines are choosing to add elsewhere.

Finally, you're aware that the barrel of taxpayer dollars to be used for aviation incentives isn't bottomless yes? It's a simple cost-benefit analysis as to whether the additional service will fuel more money into the economy than the cost of the incentive being offered. As an example, if it costs $1M in incentives to bring EI to DTW from DUB but the service is only estimated to bring $0.9M in economic benefit, then the incentive is not worth it. Are you aware of that?

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I suppose the fact that DTW cant support flights to those destinations with or without incentives is lost on you?


Bingo. The proof is also in the pudding that many routes simply can't be sustained by DTW with or without a subsidy.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 339
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:01 pm

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:


They are nothing earth shattering that is going to make an airline say hey I want to be in Detroit by the incentive that is offered. The low amount of incentives plus the fact that the WCAA has shown a great inability to market the airport effectively makes the opportunities far and few between. Detroit is in a very unique spot being one of the few airline hubs to show little growth over the past 10 years MSP being the other so even though it has a hub carrier with a lot of service it just can't sit on that and hope for the best. It needs to be proactive and creative in the way it markets itself to bring perspective suitors into the market. It is a well known fact that Delta is going to rely less and less on Detroit as a connecting point for passenger as it is projected that connection traffic is expected to decline year over year in favor of O/D traffic. Proof of that is that DL had less emplacements in 2017 at Detroit than it did in 2016. Delta plays nothing more than a shell game in this market when it add in one place it subtracts in another.


Again, you have said that DTW has a 'low amount of incentives'. That's an opinion unless you can quantify it along with a comparison to another airport. Your claims imply that you can do so. If not, mark your statement as an opinion or speculation.



Again the proof is in the pudding their incentives attract noting not even their vested hub carrier is willing to add anything substantial in the market because the incentives aren't worth it. It's time for Detroit to up it's game.

4 words: where are your facts?
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
klm617
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Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:44 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:

Again, you have said that DTW has a 'low amount of incentives'. That's an opinion unless you can quantify it along with a comparison to another airport. Your claims imply that you can do so. If not, mark your statement as an opinion or speculation.



Again the proof is in the pudding their incentives attract noting not even their vested hub carrier is willing to add anything substantial in the market because the incentives aren't worth it. It's time for Detroit to up it's game.


So you've essentially admitted here that you have no idea what the DTW incentives are nor do you have comparison data to firmly conclude that they are or are not competitive with what other comparable airports are offering. Let's go ahead and admit that because if that weren't true you'd be bringing data to the table and you're not, as usual.

Secondly, you're concluding that the reason carriers aren't adding service to DTW (even though in the short terms many have done exactly that as has been shown to you with data numerous times) is because of a lack of incentives - that's speculation. Maybe DTW is offering incentives that are comparable with equivalent airports but for other strategic reasons (like economic growth metrics or the competitive landscape) airlines are choosing to add elsewhere.

Finally, you're aware that the barrel of taxpayer dollars to be used for aviation incentives isn't bottomless yes? It's a simple cost-benefit analysis as to whether the additional service will fuel more money into the economy than the cost of the incentive being offered. As an example, if it costs $1M in incentives to bring EI to DTW from DUB but the service is only estimated to bring $0.9M in economic benefit, then the incentive is not worth it. Are you aware of that?

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I suppose the fact that DTW cant support flights to those destinations with or without incentives is lost on you?


Bingo. The proof is also in the pudding that many routes simply can't be sustained by DTW with or without a subsidy.



Again all I ask was is Detroit waiving two years landing fee like other airports are and the answer is obviously no displayed by all these diversionary posts we now know BOS and ATL do does DTW waive 2 years landing fees for any airline wanting to start serve here it's a simple yes or no question. Again if DTW doesn't waive two years landing fees it puts it at a competitive disadvantage than other airports. Again on supporting service I ask you what is the O/D of ORD-AKL but yet it's attempted I bet it even isn't close to the DTW-India market which has a partner hub at each end DTW=Delta BOM=Jet Airways.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
redtailmsp
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:05 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:10 pm

klm617 wrote:

Again all I ask was is Detroit waiving two years landing fee like other airports are and the answer is obviously no displayed by all these diversionary posts we now know BOS and ATL do does DTW waive 2 years landing fees for any airline wanting to start serve here it's a simple yes or no question. Again if DTW doesn't waive two years landing fees it puts it at a competitive disadvantage than other airports. Again on supporting service I ask you what is the O/D of ORD-AKL but yet it's attempted I bet it even isn't close to the DTW-India market which has a partner hub at each end DTW=Delta BOM=Jet Airways.



It might help your cause if you spent a few minutes proof reading your streams of consciousness before you post them. The total lack of punctuation and correct grammar make it extremely difficult to try to decipher just what the heck you are trying to say. You never know, it might even appear to be slightly less irrational, and perhaps cut down the amount of ridicule. But then again....
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5212
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:15 pm

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Again the proof is in the pudding their incentives attract noting not even their vested hub carrier is willing to add anything substantial in the market because the incentives aren't worth it. It's time for Detroit to up it's game.


So you've essentially admitted here that you have no idea what the DTW incentives are nor do you have comparison data to firmly conclude that they are or are not competitive with what other comparable airports are offering. Let's go ahead and admit that because if that weren't true you'd be bringing data to the table and you're not, as usual.

Secondly, you're concluding that the reason carriers aren't adding service to DTW (even though in the short terms many have done exactly that as has been shown to you with data numerous times) is because of a lack of incentives - that's speculation. Maybe DTW is offering incentives that are comparable with equivalent airports but for other strategic reasons (like economic growth metrics or the competitive landscape) airlines are choosing to add elsewhere.

Finally, you're aware that the barrel of taxpayer dollars to be used for aviation incentives isn't bottomless yes? It's a simple cost-benefit analysis as to whether the additional service will fuel more money into the economy than the cost of the incentive being offered. As an example, if it costs $1M in incentives to bring EI to DTW from DUB but the service is only estimated to bring $0.9M in economic benefit, then the incentive is not worth it. Are you aware of that?

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I suppose the fact that DTW cant support flights to those destinations with or without incentives is lost on you?


Bingo. The proof is also in the pudding that many routes simply can't be sustained by DTW with or without a subsidy.



Again all I ask was is Detroit waiving two years landing fee like other airports are and the answer is obviously no displayed by all these diversionary posts we now know BOS and ATL do does DTW waive 2 years landing fees for any airline wanting to start serve here it's a simple yes or no question. Again if DTW doesn't waive two years landing fees it puts it at a competitive disadvantage than other airports. Again on supporting service I ask you what is the O/D of ORD-AKL but yet it's attempted I bet it even isn't close to the DTW-India market which has a partner hub at each end DTW=Delta BOM=Jet Airways.


First off, BOS offers incentives ONLY to carriers wishing to fly to very specific regions. Its not a global thing.

Second, youre comparing ORD-AKL to DTW-India based off O&D alone? Ridiculous.

Obviously IAH/ORD-AKL is not a big O&D market. Heres why they doesnt matter:

1) The options to the South Pacific are FAR more limited than options to India. Its a huge reason ATL-JNB works so well.
2) IAH/ORD-New Zealand may be a small O&D market, IAH-Australia on the other hand is chalk full of J traffic and ORD-Australia is a nice sizable O&D market.
3) IAH-AKL is there to serve South Pacific-Southern US/Central America markets. ORD-AKL is there to serve South Pacific-Midwest/Northeast markets
4) Fares to the South Pacific are MUCH higher than fares to India which are typically quite low.

DTW-India doesnt need to be flown by anyone. This whole "they can have the market to themselves" bit is ridiculous. A case can be made for EK because their reach is far beyond India. DTW-BOM would be India specific.
Next flight: IAH-PDX-IAH on UA
 
klm617
Posts: 2697
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:57 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:

So you've essentially admitted here that you have no idea what the DTW incentives are nor do you have comparison data to firmly conclude that they are or are not competitive with what other comparable airports are offering. Let's go ahead and admit that because if that weren't true you'd be bringing data to the table and you're not, as usual.

Secondly, you're concluding that the reason carriers aren't adding service to DTW (even though in the short terms many have done exactly that as has been shown to you with data numerous times) is because of a lack of incentives - that's speculation. Maybe DTW is offering incentives that are comparable with equivalent airports but for other strategic reasons (like economic growth metrics or the competitive landscape) airlines are choosing to add elsewhere.

Finally, you're aware that the barrel of taxpayer dollars to be used for aviation incentives isn't bottomless yes? It's a simple cost-benefit analysis as to whether the additional service will fuel more money into the economy than the cost of the incentive being offered. As an example, if it costs $1M in incentives to bring EI to DTW from DUB but the service is only estimated to bring $0.9M in economic benefit, then the incentive is not worth it. Are you aware of that?



Bingo. The proof is also in the pudding that many routes simply can't be sustained by DTW with or without a subsidy.



Again all I ask was is Detroit waiving two years landing fee like other airports are and the answer is obviously no displayed by all these diversionary posts we now know BOS and ATL do does DTW waive 2 years landing fees for any airline wanting to start serve here it's a simple yes or no question. Again if DTW doesn't waive two years landing fees it puts it at a competitive disadvantage than other airports. Again on supporting service I ask you what is the O/D of ORD-AKL but yet it's attempted I bet it even isn't close to the DTW-India market which has a partner hub at each end DTW=Delta BOM=Jet Airways.


First off, BOS offers incentives ONLY to carriers wishing to fly to very specific regions. Its not a global thing.

Second, youre comparing ORD-AKL to DTW-India based off O&D alone? Ridiculous.

Obviously IAH/ORD-AKL is not a big O&D market. Heres why they doesnt matter:

1) The options to the South Pacific are FAR more limited than options to India. Its a huge reason ATL-JNB works so well.
2) IAH/ORD-New Zealand may be a small O&D market, IAH-Australia on the other hand is chalk full of J traffic and ORD-Australia is a nice sizable O&D market.
3) IAH-AKL is there to serve South Pacific-Southern US/Central America markets. ORD-AKL is there to serve South Pacific-Midwest/Northeast markets
4) Fares to the South Pacific are MUCH higher than fares to India which are typically quite low.

DTW-India doesnt need to be flown by anyone. This whole "they can have the market to themselves" bit is ridiculous. A case can be made for EK because their reach is far beyond India. DTW-BOM would be India specific.



First of all what regions is Detroit offering the 2 year landing fee waiver too none which puts it at a competitive disadvantage at gaing any service. If a big airport feels the need to do this to better attract airline service than surely Detroit needs to do the same if not better. Detroit I*India would generate a lot of J class passengers for Delta. Why is it so important for you to state all the reasons why a DTW anywhere link will not work why do you not want to see this market grow.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
 
klm617
Posts: 2697
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:05 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:

Again, you have said that DTW has a 'low amount of incentives'. That's an opinion unless you can quantify it along with a comparison to another airport. Your claims imply that you can do so. If not, mark your statement as an opinion or speculation.



Again the proof is in the pudding their incentives attract noting not even their vested hub carrier is willing to add anything substantial in the market because the incentives aren't worth it. It's time for Detroit to up it's game.


So you've essentially admitted here that you have no idea what the DTW incentives are nor do you have comparison data to firmly conclude that they are or are not competitive with what other comparable airports are offering. Let's go ahead and admit that because if that weren't true you'd be bringing data to the table and you're not, as usual.

Secondly, you're concluding that the reason carriers aren't adding service to DTW (even though in the short terms many have done exactly that as has been shown to you with data numerous times) is because of a lack of incentives - that's speculation. Maybe DTW is offering incentives that are comparable with equivalent airports but for other strategic reasons (like economic growth metrics or the competitive landscape) airlines are choosing to add elsewhere.

Finally, you're aware that the barrel of taxpayer dollars to be used for aviation incentives isn't bottomless yes? It's a simple cost-benefit analysis as to whether the additional service will fuel more money into the economy than the cost of the incentive being offered. As an example, if it costs $1M in incentives to bring EI to DTW from DUB but the service is only estimated to bring $0.9M in economic benefit, then the incentive is not worth it. Are you aware of that?

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I suppose the fact that DTW cant support flights to those destinations with or without incentives is lost on you?


Bingo. The proof is also in the pudding that many routes simply can't be sustained by DTW with or without a subsidy.


An EI link to Dublin would surely generate more than .09M. Even if it did over the years the 1.0M subsidy would pay for itself 10 times over once the incentives go away as EI gets established in this market. There is tourism dollars, parking dollars airport concession dollars and airport user fees.. At $4.50 PFC on a 4 weekly flight at 150 passenger would generate $140,000 alone. When an airline states it's intention to serve a market than it thinks a DTW-DUB link will work now it's up to the airport to step up to the plate and work with them to make it happen. EI has stated DTW more than once the airport never says anything about what they have in the works or what their intent is which can only bring us to the conclusion that they are not initiating anything. I great response from the airport would be yes we want EI here too and will work with you to try and make this happen why aren't they as forth coming as EI with their intentions.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 2697
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:59 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:

Again, you have said that DTW has a 'low amount of incentives'. That's an opinion unless you can quantify it along with a comparison to another airport. Your claims imply that you can do so. If not, mark your statement as an opinion or speculation.



Again the proof is in the pudding their incentives attract noting not even their vested hub carrier is willing to add anything substantial in the market because the incentives aren't worth it. It's time for Detroit to up it's game.


So you've essentially admitted here that you have no idea what the DTW incentives are nor do you have comparison data to firmly conclude that they are or are not competitive with what other comparable airports are offering. Let's go ahead and admit that because if that weren't true you'd be bringing data to the table and you're not, as usual.

Secondly, you're concluding that the reason carriers aren't adding service to DTW (even though in the short terms many have done exactly that as has been shown to you with data numerous times) is because of a lack of incentives - that's speculation. Maybe DTW is offering incentives that are comparable with equivalent airports but for other strategic reasons (like economic growth metrics or the competitive landscape) airlines are choosing to add elsewhere.

Finally, you're aware that the barrel of taxpayer dollars to be used for aviation incentives isn't bottomless yes? It's a simple cost-benefit analysis as to whether the additional service will fuel more money into the economy than the cost of the incentive being offered. As an example, if it costs $1M in incentives to bring EI to DTW from DUB but the service is only estimated to bring $0.9M in economic benefit, then the incentive is not worth it. Are you aware of that?

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I suppose the fact that DTW cant support flights to those destinations with or without incentives is lost on you?


Bingo. The proof is also in the pudding that many routes simply can't be sustained by DTW with or without a subsidy.


So telling me that $1 M million investment would not be worth it over ten years that's just absurd. You don't make investments on that is going to give you a return right away it's a long term investment and $1 million this year will return 10 times that amount over the long haul that's how investing works. A 4 times weekly narrow body from Detroit to Dublin is a winner and that's a no brainier even EI can see that otherwise it wouldn't have mentioned Detroit and it would behoove the airport to give them some help getting out of the starting gate..
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
jordanh
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:54 am

klm617 wrote:
A 4 times weekly narrow body from Detroit to Dublin is a winner and that's a no brainier even EI can see that otherwise it wouldn't have mentioned Detroit and it would behoove the airport to give them some help getting out of the starting gate..


It that were a "no brainer", then EI would be flying it today. They are not.

Airlines are not charities; they are not there to satisfy your personal whims to go somewhere you want to go at the cheapest fare you want to pay. They make sound. logical business decisions to fly to airports where the can best utilize their resources and maximize their profits. All the whining and posturing in the world won't change that.
 
2Holer4Longhaul
Posts: 339
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:32 am

klm617 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Again all I ask was is Detroit waiving two years landing fee like other airports are and the answer is obviously no displayed by all these diversionary posts we now know BOS and ATL do does DTW waive 2 years landing fees for any airline wanting to start serve here it's a simple yes or no question. Again if DTW doesn't waive two years landing fees it puts it at a competitive disadvantage than other airports. Again on supporting service I ask you what is the O/D of ORD-AKL but yet it's attempted I bet it even isn't close to the DTW-India market which has a partner hub at each end DTW=Delta BOM=Jet Airways.


First off, BOS offers incentives ONLY to carriers wishing to fly to very specific regions. Its not a global thing.

Second, youre comparing ORD-AKL to DTW-India based off O&D alone? Ridiculous.

Obviously IAH/ORD-AKL is not a big O&D market. Heres why they doesnt matter:

1) The options to the South Pacific are FAR more limited than options to India. Its a huge reason ATL-JNB works so well.
2) IAH/ORD-New Zealand may be a small O&D market, IAH-Australia on the other hand is chalk full of J traffic and ORD-Australia is a nice sizable O&D market.
3) IAH-AKL is there to serve South Pacific-Southern US/Central America markets. ORD-AKL is there to serve South Pacific-Midwest/Northeast markets
4) Fares to the South Pacific are MUCH higher than fares to India which are typically quite low.

DTW-India doesnt need to be flown by anyone. This whole "they can have the market to themselves" bit is ridiculous. A case can be made for EK because their reach is far beyond India. DTW-BOM would be India specific.



First of all what regions is Detroit offering the 2 year landing fee waiver too none which puts it at a competitive disadvantage at gaing any service. If a big airport feels the need to do this to better attract airline service than surely Detroit needs to do the same if not better. Detroit I*India would generate a lot of J class passengers for Delta. Why is it so important for you to state all the reasons why a DTW anywhere link will not work why do you not want to see this market grow.

'zat a fact? No, it ain't. Show me your sources or shut your trap.
klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Again the proof is in the pudding their incentives attract noting not even their vested hub carrier is willing to add anything substantial in the market because the incentives aren't worth it. It's time for Detroit to up it's game.


So you've essentially admitted here that you have no idea what the DTW incentives are nor do you have comparison data to firmly conclude that they are or are not competitive with what other comparable airports are offering. Let's go ahead and admit that because if that weren't true you'd be bringing data to the table and you're not, as usual.

Secondly, you're concluding that the reason carriers aren't adding service to DTW (even though in the short terms many have done exactly that as has been shown to you with data numerous times) is because of a lack of incentives - that's speculation. Maybe DTW is offering incentives that are comparable with equivalent airports but for other strategic reasons (like economic growth metrics or the competitive landscape) airlines are choosing to add elsewhere.

Finally, you're aware that the barrel of taxpayer dollars to be used for aviation incentives isn't bottomless yes? It's a simple cost-benefit analysis as to whether the additional service will fuel more money into the economy than the cost of the incentive being offered. As an example, if it costs $1M in incentives to bring EI to DTW from DUB but the service is only estimated to bring $0.9M in economic benefit, then the incentive is not worth it. Are you aware of that?

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I suppose the fact that DTW cant support flights to those destinations with or without incentives is lost on you?


Bingo. The proof is also in the pudding that many routes simply can't be sustained by DTW with or without a subsidy.


An EI link to Dublin would surely generate more than .09M. Even if it did over the years the 1.0M subsidy would pay for itself 10 times over once the incentives go away as EI gets established in this market. There is tourism dollars, parking dollars airport concession dollars and airport user fees.. At $4.50 PFC on a 4 weekly flight at 150 passenger would generate $140,000 alone. When an airline states it's intention to serve a market than it thinks a DTW-DUB link will work now it's up to the airport to step up to the plate and work with them to make it happen. EI has stated DTW more than once the airport never says anything about what they have in the works or what their intent is which can only bring us to the conclusion that they are not initiating anything. I great response from the airport would be yes we want EI here too and will work with you to try and make this happen why aren't they as forth coming as EI with their intentions.

He made a hypothetical example. You responded by claiming his hypothetical was a falsehood and unleashing a torrent of BS. Do you want to know why you aren't respected? This is why you aren't respected.
A junkie for A340s, A380s, and of course Her Majesty the Boeing 747. I wish they were financially viable, but it is not to be.
 
compensateme
Posts: 2342
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:10 am

It was recently announced that in 2017, Chicaogland lost population for the third consecutive year — no other major metro area has lost population in ANY of those three years, let alone all three. At ORD and MDW, local enplanements are stagnant; growth is driven almost entirely by LCC. And yet our resident trolls in this tread are happily projecting all sorts of new service in the Chicago threads. A.net ignorance at its finest.

If somebody wants to discuss DTW expansion possibilities, they’re more than entitled to do so. There’s oodles of active threads speculating on future service at [insert airport here]. In the last week or so, I’ve read about how CLT-AMS needs to happen, and SLC-Europe needs more carriers. Agains, where’s our resident trolls?

On a fourm that has a daily installment of ‘NYC needs a fourth airport’ and ‘AA vs. DL at LAX Death Match — dfw and atl fan boys argue for their favorite airline to dominate’ and ‘New service at LGB and ONT,’ I just don’t get the energy that’s spent arguing with him.

Then again, this is a forum in which one our resident former DL intern has the community convinced that Tech Ops - not the accountants - will decide DL’s fleet renewel.
If you are an American who drives an auto built by a foreign-owned company yet complains about your favorite airline buying Airbus, then you are nothing more than a whiny hypocrite.
 
klm617
Posts: 2697
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:44 pm

compensateme wrote:
It was recently announced that in 2017, Chicaogland lost population for the third consecutive year — no other major metro area has lost population in ANY of those three years, let alone all three. At ORD and MDW, local enplanements are stagnant; growth is driven almost entirely by LCC. And yet our resident trolls in this tread are happily projecting all sorts of new service in the Chicago threads. A.net ignorance at its finest.

If somebody wants to discuss DTW expansion possibilities, they’re more than entitled to do so. There’s oodles of active threads speculating on future service at [insert airport here]. In the last week or so, I’ve read about how CLT-AMS needs to happen, and SLC-Europe needs more carriers. Agains, where’s our resident trolls?

On a fourm that has a daily installment of ‘NYC needs a fourth airport’ and ‘AA vs. DL at LAX Death Match — dfw and atl fan boys argue for their favorite airline to dominate’ and ‘New service at LGB and ONT,’ I just don’t get the energy that’s spent arguing with him.

Then again, this is a forum in which one our resident former DL intern has the community convinced that Tech Ops - not the accountants - will decide DL’s fleet renewel.


Because they are all airline wannabes that jump on the band wagon of the general conscientious here at a.net at how airlines should be run. They have to agree with those who seem to be in the know about how airlines are run. a.net is more of a cult rather than a forward thinking group that talks about ideas and ways that things can be done by thing outside of the box. It's more like a group of programmed robots that just repeat what is posted here because they believe it to be the truth because they believe the source to be credible. I am not here to gain respect, friends or credibility I am here to bring DTW to the forefront whenever it is relevant whether people like it or not.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 5884
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:07 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
...
DTW-India doesnt need to be flown by anyone. This whole "they can have the market to themselves" bit is ridiculous. A case can be made for EK because their reach is far beyond India. DTW-BOM would be India specific.


Care to explain why? If DTW-India has
150 PDEW and being large potential to stimulate
Second largest Delta hub
Best Delta hub for transfers
On an average $300 more fares,
600 miles short trip (fuel savings)
No ME3 competition

Only reason it need not be flown by anyone. DTW is a captive market, we have no option other than pay $300 more and endure 30 hrs 2-stop trips.

Also some statistical areas in US include urban centers from 4 different states and others just include few counties. Not a fair comparison.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 2473
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:36 pm

NK is adding DTW-PBI starting December 21, 4x weekly seasonal
2018: AMS, ATL, BOS, BWI, CDG, CLT, CMN, DCA, DFW, DTW, EWR, FLL, FRA, HPN, JFK, IAD, IAH, IND, LAX, LGA, LHR, LOS, MAD, MIA, MSP, ORD, PHL, PVD, SAN, SEA, SJD, SLC, SFO, TPA, TXL, ZRH....Loading....
 
klm617
Posts: 2697
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:56 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
NK is adding DTW-PBI starting December 21, 4x weekly seasonal



Looks like NK is now following the F9 and G4 model as everything they are adding is less than daily except ATL-EWR
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5212
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Detroit air service discussion - 2018

Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:39 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
...
DTW-India doesnt need to be flown by anyone. This whole "they can have the market to themselves" bit is ridiculous. A case can be made for EK because their reach is far beyond India. DTW-BOM would be India specific.


Care to explain why? If DTW-India has
150 PDEW and being large potential to stimulate
Second largest Delta hub
Best Delta hub for transfers
On an average $300 more fares,
600 miles short trip (fuel savings)
No ME3 competition

Only reason it need not be flown by anyone. DTW is a captive market, we have no option other than pay $300 more and endure 30 hrs 2-stop trips.

Also some statistical areas in US include urban centers from 4 different states and others just include few counties. Not a fair comparison.


Because frankly that isnt enough.

Quoting fares from the internet is not a good way to judge what fares are at all. You dont have access to average fares paid or how many people from each market are in J, high fare Y, and discount Y.

BOM offers little for US-India traffic that DXB doesnt as far as DTW is concerned. EK would be a much better fit. It can not only serve India, but Pakistan, Bangladesh, Africa, and the Middle East. BOM only offers India. A market like DTW needs all the potential higher fare traffic it can get.

Frankly, DL is going to loose their shirt flying to India it doesnt matter where its from. This "new agreement" with the ME3 did NOTHING to change the landscape of flying between the US and India.

As far as that last line is concerned, simply no. Statistical areas are based on cohesive commute patterns. State lines are irrelevant.
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