New service alert!

NK to start DTW-JAX (new city for NK) 12/20/18. Daily service. (Along with ORD-JAX)
http://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/news ... rint-ultra

Logical add for NK at DTW. This might spur DL to upgauge/increase capacity in the market. This should be at least a 2x daily something like A320 + CR9 for DL.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

New service alert!

NK to start DTW-JAX (new city for NK) 12/20/18. Daily service. (Along with ORD-JAX)
http://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/news ... rint-ultra

Logical add for NK at DTW. This might spur DL to upgauge/increase capacity in the market. This should be at least a 2x daily something like A320 + CR9 for DL.

More good news and another add. Really odd that the start date is so close in. Would be nice to see some new spokes like VPS and SRQ. I chucled at the "Florida's hometown airline" comment because I remember when Spirit was Detroit's home town airline.

This guy gets it.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opini ... /33900163/

klm617 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

New service alert!

NK to start DTW-JAX (new city for NK) 12/20/18. Daily service. (Along with ORD-JAX)
http://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/news ... rint-ultra

Logical add for NK at DTW. This might spur DL to upgauge/increase capacity in the market. This should be at least a 2x daily something like A320 + CR9 for DL.

More good news and another add. Really odd that the start date is so close in. Would be nice to see some new spokes like VPS and SRQ. I chucled at the "Florida's hometown airline" comment because I remember when Spirit was Detroit's home town airline.

Spirit is "Detroit's Hometown Low-Cost Carrier". Delta is technically "Detroit's Hometown Airline". They must be confident about the route with it starting in 3 and a half months from now. They wouldn't have added it if they weren't confident. They won't get into Grand Rapids, Frontier has already claimed that territory.

flymco753 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

New service alert!

NK to start DTW-JAX (new city for NK) 12/20/18. Daily service. (Along with ORD-JAX)
http://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/news ... rint-ultra

Logical add for NK at DTW. This might spur DL to upgauge/increase capacity in the market. This should be at least a 2x daily something like A320 + CR9 for DL.

More good news and another add. Really odd that the start date is so close in. Would be nice to see some new spokes like VPS and SRQ. I chucled at the "Florida's hometown airline" comment because I remember when Spirit was Detroit's home town airline.

Spirit is "Detroit's Hometown Low-Cost Carrier". Delta is technically "Detroit's Hometown Airline". They must be confident about the route with it starting in 3 and a half months from now. They wouldn't have added it if they weren't confident. They won't get into Grand Rapids, Frontier has already claimed that territory.

Neither DL nor NK is “Detroit’s Hometown Airline.” NK has its roots in Metro Detroit, and even maintained its 248 phone numbers until recently, but pretty much abandoned the area by the late 2000s. They were seriously considering moving their HQ (again) recently, but I hear the committee recommended Dallas, although they must’ve gotten their tax breaks since they’ve moved on from the idea...

NK’s recent growth is fueled by its name recognition as well as the fact that the market is largely being ignored by everyone else.

To elaborate, NK should be sending flowers and gift baskets to WN for purchasing and decimating FL (AirTran).
FL was capturing a good portion of the traffic flows and passenger segment from Michigan through DTW & FNT that are now being captured by NK at DTW.

NK was the 20-25 flights/day range through late 90s, had visions of growing to 60+ flights/day by the mid-2000s. Original plans in the early planning stages of the North Terminal were for NK to lease 8 gates. However when NK changed their focus, grew FLL, and expanded outward, they walked away from their DTW growth ambitions.

I mean, while they've shifted their focus to FL, DTW is still an impressive market for Spirit. The hangar shows their commitment to serving the region by adding an economic impact. The talk was Dallas for the HQ, but I think their focus is shifted towards Orlando now. Orange County has a few facilities that don't sound too bad.

Next I suppose they could add PUJ and PHX as winter destinations with PHX being year round and PUJ seasonal. EWR and BDL in the summer. It's great to see that DTW was part of the first routes for a new station.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

To elaborate, NK should be sending flowers and gift baskets to WN for purchasing and decimating FL (AirTran).
FL was capturing a good portion of the traffic flows and passenger segment from Michigan through DTW & FNT that are now being captured by NK at DTW.

NK was the 20-25 flights/day range through late 90s, had visions of growing to 60+ flights/day by the mid-2000s. Original plans in the early planning stages of the North Terminal were for NK to lease 8 gates. However when NK changed their focus, grew FLL, and expanded outward, they walked away from their DTW growth ambitions.

Sadly, Ned Homfeld fully supported the new terminal, but Indigo Partners did not, joining up with WN behind the scenes in attempt to kill the project. NK gutted service in preparation of North’s opening, although they weren’t alone — UA went from 7x mainline to ORD and 3x mainline to DEN to just a single mainline flight to ORD (the rest were a mixture of ERJ, CRJ and CR7) and 2xCR7 to DEN. UA has never recovered (at DTW) from this. AA made cuts as well, although not as deep.

Thankfully, FL was still interested in the market, and it’s nice to see NK flourishing here status quo. I known I’ve flown NK a lot from LAX-DTW these past few years, and really appreciate their service.

flymco753 wrote:

I mean, while they've shifted their focus to FL, DTW is still an impressive market for Spirit. The hangar shows their commitment to serving the region by adding an economic impact. The talk was Dallas for the HQ, but I think their focus is shifted towards Orlando now. Orange County has a few facilities that don't sound too bad.

Next I suppose they could add PUJ and PHX as winter destinations with PHX being year round and PUJ seasonal. EWR and BDL in the summer. It's great to see that DTW was part of the first routes for a new station.

I agree it's a good sign to see Detroit being linked to a new station and would like to see this more often that in my mind would show how committed they are to this market. What's nice is the Spirit product works pretty well for flights around 2 hours.

Here's some more good news: https://www.freep.com/story/travel/mich ... new-cookie

Yes, good point at in the early-2000s, WN & NK almost killed the North Terminal project. They walked away from original design commitments, were against the Ground Transportation center in the North Terminal and overall displeased with the proposed costs of a very yeoman North Terminal.

The key issue they had that their rent was going to be 4x higher in the new North Terminal than the fire-sale rent in the old dilapidated Smith Terminal.

Now, flash forward to 2018; I find NK to be extremely valuable in the market and saved me several times, particularly against obscene last-minute fares from all the competition.
I find them to have a much better overall experience than WN (which is anything but low-fares these days and which I find to be pretty much worthless in DTW and I really can't stand the insanity of most of the not-a-hub/but-act-like-a-hub large cities)

flymco753 wrote:

Here's some more good news: https://www.freep.com/story/travel/mich ... new-cookie

You hear that world if you're looking for a great stress free hub connection Detroit is where you want to be routed over. Try it you'll like it and I guarantee you'll keep coming back. DTW is the AMS of North America. Few crowds wide concourses and everything in one straight line no having to navigate through endless different boarding concourses or crowds to find your gate. Plus like Europe all international connections under one roof no having to change terminals going from international to domestic flight. Smart travelers will always chose Detroit to connect over any other hubs. Spend your transfer time relaxing between flights eating a meal or just reading a book because you have time because like I say no running through crowds to make sure you catch your connecting flight.

compensateme wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

To elaborate, NK should be sending flowers and gift baskets to WN for purchasing and decimating FL (AirTran).
FL was capturing a good portion of the traffic flows and passenger segment from Michigan through DTW & FNT that are now being captured by NK at DTW.

NK was the 20-25 flights/day range through late 90s, had visions of growing to 60+ flights/day by the mid-2000s. Original plans in the early planning stages of the North Terminal were for NK to lease 8 gates. However when NK changed their focus, grew FLL, and expanded outward, they walked away from their DTW growth ambitions.

Sadly, Ned Homfeld fully supported the new terminal, but Indigo Partners did not, joining up with WN behind the scenes in attempt to kill the project. NK gutted service in preparation of North’s opening, although they weren’t alone — UA went from 7x mainline to ORD and 3x mainline to DEN to just a single mainline flight to ORD (the rest were a mixture of ERJ, CRJ and CR7) and 2xCR7 to DEN. UA has never recovered (at DTW) from this. AA made cuts as well, although not as deep.

Thankfully, FL was still interested in the market, and it’s nice to see NK flourishing here status quo. I known I’ve flown NK a lot from LAX-DTW these past few years, and really appreciate their service.

UA's capacity cut at DTW in 2008 had nothing to do with the terminal. It was all due to the retirement of the 737 classic fleet.

klm617 wrote:

This guy gets it.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opini ... /33900163/

I don't disagree with some of what he says, but his comparison is absurd:

For perspective let’s look at a hypothetical trip to London in mid-May. Round-trip, non-stop economy-class airfare on Delta is $1,334, according to a Google Flights search. Flying Delta for the same dates out of Chicago returned an airfare of $671 with a connection in New York. With the $663 savings, I could fly to Chicago and still have plenty of money left to either spend in London or, better yet, save toward a future trip.

He's comparing a non-stop round-trip fare to a one-stop, which is apples to oranges. His observed discrepancy will be the case in virtually every marketplace.

Also take note of this sign off paragraph:

Despite all this I continue flying Delta — last year I did over 175,000 miles — because it’s the best major U.S. airline. Detroit’s airport would be better and Delta would be better if consumers had a real choice. Until then, consumers pay the price.

drdisque wrote:

compensateme wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

To elaborate, NK should be sending flowers and gift baskets to WN for purchasing and decimating FL (AirTran).
FL was capturing a good portion of the traffic flows and passenger segment from Michigan through DTW & FNT that are now being captured by NK at DTW.

NK was the 20-25 flights/day range through late 90s, had visions of growing to 60+ flights/day by the mid-2000s. Original plans in the early planning stages of the North Terminal were for NK to lease 8 gates. However when NK changed their focus, grew FLL, and expanded outward, they walked away from their DTW growth ambitions.

Sadly, Ned Homfeld fully supported the new terminal, but Indigo Partners did not, joining up with WN behind the scenes in attempt to kill the project. NK gutted service in preparation of North’s opening, although they weren’t alone — UA went from 7x mainline to ORD and 3x mainline to DEN to just a single mainline flight to ORD (the rest were a mixture of ERJ, CRJ and CR7) and 2xCR7 to DEN. UA has never recovered (at DTW) from this. AA made cuts as well, although not as deep.

Thankfully, FL was still interested in the market, and it’s nice to see NK flourishing here status quo. I known I’ve flown NK a lot from LAX-DTW these past few years, and really appreciate their service.

UA's capacity cut at DTW in 2008 had nothing to do with the terminal. It was all due to the retirement of the 737 classic fleet.

Yes UA was retiring its 737 fleet, yes the industry was suffering from high fuel pricing and yes the local economy was tanking... but UA cut around 60% of DTW’s total seats (in terms of comparing summer 2008 to fall 2008) shortly before they moved into the new terminal - no other comparable station was even close to that number. NK, AA and US each took fewer gates (than in LC Smith) and made significant cuts to compensate, although US grew fairly quickly. Heck, even AC replaced it’s CRJ with A mixture of BE1/DH3.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

This guy gets it.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opini ... /33900163/

I don't disagree with some of what he says, but his comparison is absurd:

For perspective let’s look at a hypothetical trip to London in mid-May. Round-trip, non-stop economy-class airfare on Delta is $1,334, according to a Google Flights search. Flying Delta for the same dates out of Chicago returned an airfare of $671 with a connection in New York. With the $663 savings, I could fly to Chicago and still have plenty of money left to either spend in London or, better yet, save toward a future trip.

He's comparing a non-stop round-trip fare to a one-stop, which is apples to oranges. His observed discrepancy will be the case in virtually every marketplace.

Also take note of this sign off paragraph:

Despite all this I continue flying Delta — last year I did over 175,000 miles — because it’s the best major U.S. airline. Detroit’s airport would be better and Delta would be better if consumers had a real choice. Until then, consumers pay the price.

Why is his comparison absurd? The article was published in April, citing a fare prior to Wow’s entry into the market. It’s probable DL’s nonstop flight was the cheapest option at the time. The sub-$500 airfares available to Europe today (on WW, AA, etc.) just didn’t exist then; I recall a few years ago when everything in freakin October was pricing at $1800, when ORD had flights for $400.

compensateme wrote:

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

This guy gets it.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opini ... /33900163/

I don't disagree with some of what he says, but his comparison is absurd:

For perspective let’s look at a hypothetical trip to London in mid-May. Round-trip, non-stop economy-class airfare on Delta is $1,334, according to a Google Flights search. Flying Delta for the same dates out of Chicago returned an airfare of $671 with a connection in New York. With the $663 savings, I could fly to Chicago and still have plenty of money left to either spend in London or, better yet, save toward a future trip.

He's comparing a non-stop round-trip fare to a one-stop, which is apples to oranges. His observed discrepancy will be the case in virtually every marketplace.

Also take note of this sign off paragraph:

Despite all this I continue flying Delta — last year I did over 175,000 miles — because it’s the best major U.S. airline. Detroit’s airport would be better and Delta would be better if consumers had a real choice. Until then, consumers pay the price.

Why is his comparison absurd? The article was published in April, citing a fare prior to Wow’s entry into the market. It’s probable DL’s nonstop flight was the cheapest option at the time. The sub-$500 airfares available to Europe today (on WW, AA, etc.) just didn’t exist then; I recall a few years ago when everything in freakin October was pricing at $1800, when ORD had flights for $400.

How can delta possibly continue with its market share battles everywhere if it is not milking every dollar off dtw and msp? Until another carrier gets larger, it will always stay this way.

It’s a good thing nk is at least adding capacity to leisure spots.

compensateme wrote:

drdisque wrote:

compensateme wrote:

Sadly, Ned Homfeld fully supported the new terminal, but Indigo Partners did not, joining up with WN behind the scenes in attempt to kill the project. NK gutted service in preparation of North’s opening, although they weren’t alone — UA went from 7x mainline to ORD and 3x mainline to DEN to just a single mainline flight to ORD (the rest were a mixture of ERJ, CRJ and CR7) and 2xCR7 to DEN. UA has never recovered (at DTW) from this. AA made cuts as well, although not as deep.

Thankfully, FL was still interested in the market, and it’s nice to see NK flourishing here status quo. I known I’ve flown NK a lot from LAX-DTW these past few years, and really appreciate their service.

UA's capacity cut at DTW in 2008 had nothing to do with the terminal. It was all due to the retirement of the 737 classic fleet.

Yes UA was retiring its 737 fleet, yes the industry was suffering from high fuel pricing and yes the local economy was tanking... but UA cut around 60% of DTW’s total seats (in terms of comparing summer 2008 to fall 2008) shortly before they moved into the new terminal - no other comparable station was even close to that number. NK, AA and US each took fewer gates (than in LC Smith) and made significant cuts to compensate, although US grew fairly quickly. Heck, even AC replaced it’s CRJ with A mixture of BE1/DH3.

Lots of other stations saw similar cuts (and not just former Ted markets that were closed like FLL and PBI or went all UAX like RSW and MIA).

Other stations that went from primarily mainline to primarily or entirely UAX during 2008:
BUF
CMH
PIT
DFW
IAH
MHT
OMA
DSM
CLE

The downgauges in these markets were done because they were close enough to the hubs to be served by regional and that they could retain their frequency with regional in markets that are competitive with AA. Also, note that DFW, CLE, and IAH were competitive hubs.

Something I was thinking about the other day
There have been a ton of new routes announced from ams Lately by dal/klm
Tpa mco ind las dfw and they haven’t taken away any of the dtw ams flights, yet anyways.
That’s great to see. Shows how strong the route is. In fact, I had heard that dtw-ams is one of Delta’s most profitable routes if not the most

dtwpilot225 wrote:

Something I was thinking about the other day
There have been a ton of new routes announced from ams Lately by dal/klm
Tpa mco ind las dfw and they haven’t taken away any of the dtw ams flights, yet anyways.
That’s great to see. Shows how strong the route is. In fact, I had heard that dtw-ams is one of Delta’s most profitable routes if not the most

Still very disappointing that one of the DTW-AMS flights is not operated by KLM being every Delta hub (Excluding SEA) has KLM on the route. It is also funny to me being the hub Memphis was that Delta can't see their way to reading AMS-MEM. I am not really that confident that DTW-AMS will stay a 4 daily but we'll see. This summer it actually went from 28 weekly to 27 so there is a bit of a reduction there already.

Hmm I wonder why you are upset with your name

dtwpilot225 wrote:

Hmm I wonder why you are upset with your name

I will say this I fly Detroit Frankfurt a lot and when I had the choice of flying KLM out of Detroit I flew DTW-AMS-FRA on KLM over the Detroit-Frankfurt nonstop. Flew Air France once DTW-CDG-FRA but CDG is a nightmare.

klm617 wrote:

This summer it actually went from 28 weekly to 27 so there is a bit of a reduction there already.

That was just for one week this Summer, and it was offset by equipment change for that week.

In aggregate, June-August 2018 DTWAMS capacity is up 17% when measured by seats compared to June-August 2017 per OAG, so it's been a notable capacity increase.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

This summer it actually went from 28 weekly to 27 so there is a bit of a reduction there already.

That was just for one week this Summer, and it was offset by equipment change for that week.

In aggregate, June-August 2018 DTWAMS capacity is up 17% when measured by seats compared to June-August 2017 per OAG, so it's been a notable capacity increase.

That’s actually false. DTW-AMS has been 27 weekly since 2016. This is because one of the departures on Friday’s goes to GRU. However despite the one flight lost, we got the A359 and A333 on the route.

I’m still impressed by KL’s growth in 2 years, MSP, SLC, MIA, BOS and now LAS.

KLM 617 now is the BOS-AMS flight

And dude, have you been to MEM lately?? Its a ghost town.
DL literally has dozens of outstations that are far bigger than MEM. MEM-AMS died with the hub.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

KLM 617 now is the BOS-AMS flight

And dude, have you been to MEM lately?? Its a ghost town.
DL literally has dozens of outstations that are far bigger than MEM. MEM-AMS died with the hub.

It sucks to be me.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

KLM 617 now is the BOS-AMS flight

And dude, have you been to MEM lately?? Its a ghost town.
DL literally has dozens of outstations that are far bigger than MEM. MEM-AMS died with the hub.

But I'm sure there is enough cargo to sustain the flight being it's the FedEx hub.

BenflysDTW wrote:

I’m still impressed by KL’s growth in 2 years, MSP, SLC, MIA, BOS and now LAS.

But no Detroit speaks volumes really.

klm617 wrote:

BenflysDTW wrote:

I’m still impressed by KL’s growth in 2 years, MSP, SLC, MIA, BOS and now LAS.

But no Detroit speaks volumes really.

Please stop. DL and KL coordinate schedules, so if KL were to add DTW, it’d be in lieu of a DL flight. And have you flown KL lately? The service is absolutely inferior to DL. And flights to SLC and MSP are on cramped 787, whereas ATL gets even more cramped 777. Meanwhile, we get the spacious 359 - with better food, drink and entertainment selection. What are you whining about?

compensateme wrote:

klm617 wrote:

BenflysDTW wrote:

I’m still impressed by KL’s growth in 2 years, MSP, SLC, MIA, BOS and now LAS.

But no Detroit speaks volumes really.

Please stop. DL and KL coordinate schedules, so if KL were to add DTW, it’d be in lieu of a DL flight. And have you flown KL lately? The service is absolutely inferior to DL. And flights to SLC and MSP are on cramped 787, whereas ATL gets even more cramped 777. Meanwhile, we get the spacious 359 - with better food, drink and entertainment selection. What are you whining about?

And that's OK if they take over one Delta flight move the ATL KLM fight to Detroit if it's a mute point. There has to be a benefit to having a KLM flight operated to these airports if they are all good enough to have KLM then so is Detroit. I'd rather fly KLM any day over Delta. As I said when KLM served DTW I even chose the one stop over the NW nonstops. I have flown the Delta 767 on DTW-FRA twice in the last 12 months so far and while the cabin staff did a better than average job the rest of the experience was typical Delta subpar tight 767 seating unfriendly CSAs and even a one hour delay.

klm617 wrote:

compensateme wrote:

klm617 wrote:

But no Detroit speaks volumes really.

Please stop. DL and KL coordinate schedules, so if KL were to add DTW, it’d be in lieu of a DL flight. And have you flown KL lately? The service is absolutely inferior to DL. And flights to SLC and MSP are on cramped 787, whereas ATL gets even more cramped 777. Meanwhile, we get the spacious 359 - with better food, drink and entertainment selection. What are you whining about?

And that's OK if they take over one Delta flight move the ATL KLM fight to Detroit if it's a mute point. There has to be a benefit to having a KLM flight operated to these airports if they are all good enough to have KLM then so is Detroit. I'd rather fly KLM any day over Delta. As I said when KLM served DTW I even chose the one stop over the NW nonstops. I have flown the Delta 767 on DTW-FRA twice in the last 12 months so far and while the cabin staff did a better than average job the rest of the experience was typical Delta subpar tight 767 seating unfriendly CSAs and even a one hour delay.

I think I know where you’re going with this. The destination is meaningless. It’s having another livery flying into DTW. You’d prefer AZ flying to FCO, KL to AMS, KE to ICN, MU to PEK..... You wouldn’t care if the service was crap compared to DL. It’s all about another tail.

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

compensateme wrote:

Please stop. DL and KL coordinate schedules, so if KL were to add DTW, it’d be in lieu of a DL flight. And have you flown KL lately? The service is absolutely inferior to DL. And flights to SLC and MSP are on cramped 787, whereas ATL gets even more cramped 777. Meanwhile, we get the spacious 359 - with better food, drink and entertainment selection. What are you whining about?

And that's OK if they take over one Delta flight move the ATL KLM fight to Detroit if it's a mute point. There has to be a benefit to having a KLM flight operated to these airports if they are all good enough to have KLM then so is Detroit. I'd rather fly KLM any day over Delta. As I said when KLM served DTW I even chose the one stop over the NW nonstops. I have flown the Delta 767 on DTW-FRA twice in the last 12 months so far and while the cabin staff did a better than average job the rest of the experience was typical Delta subpar tight 767 seating unfriendly CSAs and even a one hour delay.

I think I know where you’re going with this. The destination is meaningless. It’s having another livery flying into DTW. You’d prefer AZ flying to FCO, KL to AMS, KE to ICN, MU to PEK..... You wouldn’t care if the service was crap compared to DL. It’s all about another tail.

Actually no I could careless about AZ or VS because I would never use them. As I said I am a frequent traveler from DTW to FRA so KLM would be one I would use just like EI and right now Delta is my only skyteam choice outside of AF and CDG is horrific. It's all about customer choice plain and simple and for the most part my only choice is Delta if I'm flying skyteam. My bone is if every other airport can have that choice why not Detroit and if it doesn't matter move a KLM flight from ATL to Detroit but customer choice does matter at all the other Delta hubs except when fly out of the Detroit market to Europe.

klm617 wrote:

And that's OK if they take over one Delta flight move the ATL KLM fight to Detroit if it's a mute point. There has to be a benefit to having a KLM flight operated to these airports if they are all good enough to have KLM then so is Detroit. I'd rather fly KLM any day over Delta. As I said when KLM served DTW I even chose the one stop over the NW nonstops. I have flown the Delta 767 on DTW-FRA twice in the last 12 months so far and while the cabin staff did a better than average job the rest of the experience was typical Delta subpar tight 767 seating unfriendly CSAs and even a one hour delay.

Please tell me what that benefit is. Ultimately, it's air service that's interchangeable with -- it doesn't add capacity into the market nor does it lower fares, and while you may prefer KL, the overwhelming consensus is generally that DL offers a better on board product. And "tight" 767 seating? Unless you're traveling in Business, sitting in economy in any DL widebody is way more comfortable than KL -- KL opted to use the same seats on its 330 that it did on its 787 and (ten across) 777.

If you want KL, there's plenty of one-stop options, including YYZ, BOS, JFK, etc. Otherwise, it offers no benefit to the consumer.

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

compensateme wrote:

Please stop. DL and KL coordinate schedules, so if KL were to add DTW, it’d be in lieu of a DL flight. And have you flown KL lately? The service is absolutely inferior to DL. And flights to SLC and MSP are on cramped 787, whereas ATL gets even more cramped 777. Meanwhile, we get the spacious 359 - with better food, drink and entertainment selection. What are you whining about?

And that's OK if they take over one Delta flight move the ATL KLM fight to Detroit if it's a mute point. There has to be a benefit to having a KLM flight operated to these airports if they are all good enough to have KLM then so is Detroit. I'd rather fly KLM any day over Delta. As I said when KLM served DTW I even chose the one stop over the NW nonstops. I have flown the Delta 767 on DTW-FRA twice in the last 12 months so far and while the cabin staff did a better than average job the rest of the experience was typical Delta subpar tight 767 seating unfriendly CSAs and even a one hour delay.

I think I know where you’re going with this. The destination is meaningless. It’s having another livery flying into DTW. You’d prefer AZ flying to FCO, KL to AMS, KE to ICN, MU to PEK..... You wouldn’t care if the service was crap compared to DL. It’s all about another tail.

There are two opportunities right now out there that need to be seized for the benefit of the Detroit market and it's growth EI and EK and all hands should be on deck to make these happen sooner rather than later. While EK is the first choice as they would create a wider range of destinations Detroiter's need to reach than both QR and TK plus EK will not run RJ out of town. Secondly EI for it's access to all the secondary UK markets out of Detroit at a decent fare. While we did get WW which is a good thing FI would have been much better for Detroit because I see WW as an airline on life support that could be gone any day and we'd be back to square one at least with FI there is some sort of security there that they won't go under leaving Detroit once again with no low fare carrier to Europe. As far as other adds that should be available to Detroit KE and KL or more than reasonable expectations to add in this market as they are both the home carriers at 2 of the skyteam hubs just like Detroit to stimulate recognition of the Detroit hub for both Korea and Holland for those who are loyal to their home country carrier. No as far as BA they bring nothing more to the Detroit market than we already have so there is no need to chase down a BA flight and as far as DY goes same situation as WW basically a rent a service that cold fold and discontinue service at any time so really not much value there. That all being said of course we should never look a gift horse in the mouth but there are some add that are more important than others.


FI over WW, EI over BA or DY and EK over TK or QR. unlike most on here I have no ego to feed so your negative replies do not detour me from my goal to get exposure for Detroit and to get service at the airport that will contribute to meaningful growth not this 1 or 2% BS growth we are seeing now. Apathy leads to extinction and I refuse to be apathetic about my home town airport by defending the status quo as acceptable.

compensateme wrote:

klm617 wrote:

And that's OK if they take over one Delta flight move the ATL KLM fight to Detroit if it's a mute point. There has to be a benefit to having a KLM flight operated to these airports if they are all good enough to have KLM then so is Detroit. I'd rather fly KLM any day over Delta. As I said when KLM served DTW I even chose the one stop over the NW nonstops. I have flown the Delta 767 on DTW-FRA twice in the last 12 months so far and while the cabin staff did a better than average job the rest of the experience was typical Delta subpar tight 767 seating unfriendly CSAs and even a one hour delay.

Please tell me what that benefit is. Ultimately, it's air service that's interchangeable with -- it doesn't add capacity into the market nor does it lower fares, and while you may prefer KL, the overwhelming consensus is generally that DL offers a better on board product. And "tight" 767 seating? Unless you're traveling in Business, sitting in economy in any DL widebody is way more comfortable than KL -- KL opted to use the same seats on its 330 that it did on its 787 and (ten across) 777.

If you want KL, there's plenty of one-stop options, including YYZ, BOS, JFK, etc. Otherwise, it offers no benefit to the consumer.

If a KLM flight had no value to the markets they fly to then why do they not just fly the routes on Delta could have added the extra AMS-BOS capacity then there is value in having KLM serve a market otherwise like I say they wouldn't be in ATL, MSP,BOS and SLC and again that would be fine but I'm not double connecting to go to FRA and you know my stance if the airline doesn't serve my market they don't get my custom. Yeah well my Delta 767 flight was horribly tight . I just like the overall experience of flying a European carrier than a US one. Everyone has their own opinion. Why are you so against having a KLM flight to Detroit ?

and the irony of it is that DL does the ground handling for KLM and AF in most, if not all the hubs. I know that's the case with the AF flight here. I'm friends with plenty of the agents who work that flight at the gate/counter on a daily basis.

Oh, and the idea of MEM-AMS returning by virtue of being sustained by cargo alone from FedEx is laughable at best. That's like saying a Dunkin Donuts franchise is going to be printing money by virtue of being across the street from Starbucks' HQ in Seattle.

klm617 wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

And that's OK if they take over one Delta flight move the ATL KLM fight to Detroit if it's a mute point. There has to be a benefit to having a KLM flight operated to these airports if they are all good enough to have KLM then so is Detroit. I'd rather fly KLM any day over Delta. As I said when KLM served DTW I even chose the one stop over the NW nonstops. I have flown the Delta 767 on DTW-FRA twice in the last 12 months so far and while the cabin staff did a better than average job the rest of the experience was typical Delta subpar tight 767 seating unfriendly CSAs and even a one hour delay.

I think I know where you’re going with this. The destination is meaningless. It’s having another livery flying into DTW. You’d prefer AZ flying to FCO, KL to AMS, KE to ICN, MU to PEK..... You wouldn’t care if the service was crap compared to DL. It’s all about another tail.

There are two opportunities right now out there that need to be seized for the benefit of the Detroit market and it's growth EI and EK and all hands should be on deck to make these happen sooner rather than later. While EK is the first choice as they would create a wider range of destinations Detroiter's need to reach than both QR and TK plus EK will not run RJ out of town. Secondly EI for it's access to all the secondary UK markets out of Detroit at a decent fare. While we did get WW which is a good thing FI would have been much better for Detroit because I see WW as an airline on life support that could be gone any day and we'd be back to square one at least with FI there is some sort of security there that they won't go under leaving Detroit once again with no low fare carrier to Europe. As far as other adds that should be available to Detroit KE and KL or more than reasonable expectations to add in this market as they are both the home carriers at 2 of the skyteam hubs just like Detroit to stimulate recognition of the Detroit hub for both Korea and Holland for those who are loyal to their home country carrier. No as far as BA they bring nothing more to the Detroit market than we already have so there is no need to chase down a BA flight and as far as DY goes same situation as WW basically a rent a service that cold fold and discontinue service at any time so really not much value there. That all being said of course we should never look a gift horse in the mouth but there are some add that are more important than others.


FI over WW, EI over BA or DY and EK over TK or QR. unlike most on here I have no ego to feed so your negative replies do not detour me from my goal to get exposure for Detroit and to get service at the airport that will contribute to meaningful growth not this 1 or 2% BS growth we are seeing now. Apathy leads to extinction and I refuse to be apathetic about my home town airport by defending the status quo as acceptable.

So then I was right. Swap out DL tails for another SkyTeam member. Example...DTW-ICN can’t support 2 flights, so drop DL like a hot potato for KE. If DL would sacrifice FCO to AZ you’d be just as satisfied.

klm617 wrote:

compensateme wrote:

klm617 wrote:

And that's OK if they take over one Delta flight move the ATL KLM fight to Detroit if it's a mute point. There has to be a benefit to having a KLM flight operated to these airports if they are all good enough to have KLM then so is Detroit. I'd rather fly KLM any day over Delta. As I said when KLM served DTW I even chose the one stop over the NW nonstops. I have flown the Delta 767 on DTW-FRA twice in the last 12 months so far and while the cabin staff did a better than average job the rest of the experience was typical Delta subpar tight 767 seating unfriendly CSAs and even a one hour delay.

Please tell me what that benefit is. Ultimately, it's air service that's interchangeable with -- it doesn't add capacity into the market nor does it lower fares, and while you may prefer KL, the overwhelming consensus is generally that DL offers a better on board product. And "tight" 767 seating? Unless you're traveling in Business, sitting in economy in any DL widebody is way more comfortable than KL -- KL opted to use the same seats on its 330 that it did on its 787 and (ten across) 777.

If you want KL, there's plenty of one-stop options, including YYZ, BOS, JFK, etc. Otherwise, it offers no benefit to the consumer.

If a KLM flight had no value to the markets they fly to then why do they not just fly the routes on Delta could have added the extra AMS-BOS capacity then there is value in having KLM serve a market otherwise like I say they wouldn't be in ATL, MSP,BOS and SLC and again that would be fine but I'm not double connecting to go to FRA and you know my stance if the airline doesn't serve my market they don't get my custom. Yeah well my Delta 767 flight was horribly tight . I just like the overall experience of flying a European carrier than a US one. Everyone has their own opinion. Why are you so against having a KLM flight to Detroit ?

I never asserted that I was against KL serving DTW; I’m saying your claim that ‘DL hates DTW because it’s the only hub without KL service’ is a logical fallacy. For that to be true, there would have to be something “special” about KL - but there isn’t. As I’ve pointed out, it’s not going to increase traffic, it’s not going to stimulate lower airfares, and most people agree DL offers a better product. This, we’re not missing out on anything.

The reason KL doesn’t serve DTW is likely logistics — a finite number of long-haul flights, with diverse departure times using a wide mix of the long haul fleet. And the departures are usually timed so that DTW can House the 330 operational spare, with extra crews standing by locally. Of course, I could use your logic and say DL must LOVE DTW sonce it’s protecting us from KL and its subpar onboard product (if you think the 763 is tight, you haven’t flown KL longhaul lately). ATL can keep the 10-abreast 777, I’ll gladly fly on DL’s 330 and 350.

who says DTW-ICN can't support 2 daily? or at least 10 weekly. This route is the new DTW-NRT and we both know that route was easily double daily many times for years. Especially now that they are "introducing" Korean to the team, sending KE on their Flagship NA route makes complete sense.
As far as KLM, I completely don't understand why 1 of the 4 daily, at least in the summer, can't be on KL. It has always baffled me since they pulled the 743/MD11 and I fully believe it can only help not hurt the market. Again it introduces a member of the team. Now if its true DTWAMS is the most profitable in the network then well DL probably doesn't want to share, but aren't they anyway as most of those passengers are connecting onward to KL flights?
Lastly I will never understand the ill will toward AirFrance. They have always blown me away with their service, great crew, comfy planes, good IFE, connecting at CDG your first time is not fun but then after you've done it once, it's no problem and maybe the best airport for spotting tails. Back to AF, I mean of course the A380 beats the A340 which is now gone on the DTW-CDG anyway but they do friggin' wine tastings mid flight in the Galley. Live it up!

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

I think I know where you’re going with this. The destination is meaningless. It’s having another livery flying into DTW. You’d prefer AZ flying to FCO, KL to AMS, KE to ICN, MU to PEK..... You wouldn’t care if the service was crap compared to DL. It’s all about another tail.

There are two opportunities right now out there that need to be seized for the benefit of the Detroit market and it's growth EI and EK and all hands should be on deck to make these happen sooner rather than later. While EK is the first choice as they would create a wider range of destinations Detroiter's need to reach than both QR and TK plus EK will not run RJ out of town. Secondly EI for it's access to all the secondary UK markets out of Detroit at a decent fare. While we did get WW which is a good thing FI would have been much better for Detroit because I see WW as an airline on life support that could be gone any day and we'd be back to square one at least with FI there is some sort of security there that they won't go under leaving Detroit once again with no low fare carrier to Europe. As far as other adds that should be available to Detroit KE and KL or more than reasonable expectations to add in this market as they are both the home carriers at 2 of the skyteam hubs just like Detroit to stimulate recognition of the Detroit hub for both Korea and Holland for those who are loyal to their home country carrier. No as far as BA they bring nothing more to the Detroit market than we already have so there is no need to chase down a BA flight and as far as DY goes same situation as WW basically a rent a service that cold fold and discontinue service at any time so really not much value there. That all being said of course we should never look a gift horse in the mouth but there are some add that are more important than others.


FI over WW, EI over BA or DY and EK over TK or QR. unlike most on here I have no ego to feed so your negative replies do not detour me from my goal to get exposure for Detroit and to get service at the airport that will contribute to meaningful growth not this 1 or 2% BS growth we are seeing now. Apathy leads to extinction and I refuse to be apathetic about my home town airport by defending the status quo as acceptable.

So then I was right. Swap out DL tails for another SkyTeam member. Example...DTW-ICN can’t support 2 flights, so drop DL like a hot potato for KE. If DL would sacrifice FCO to AZ you’d be just as satisfied.

\Who says Detroit can't support 10 weekly 7 on Delta and 3 weekly on KE we had a daily 747 here year round. Never said I'd rather have AZ on DTW-FCO.

NWADTWE16 wrote:

who says DTW-ICN can't support 2 daily? or at least 10 weekly. This route is the new DTW-NRT and we both know that route was easily double daily many times for years. Especially now that they are "introducing" Korean to the team, sending KE on their Flagship NA route makes complete sense.
As far as KLM, I completely don't understand why 1 of the 4 daily, at least in the summer, can't be on KL. It has always baffled me since they pulled the 743/MD11 and I fully believe it can only help not hurt the market. Again it introduces a member of the team. Now if its true DTWAMS is the most profitable in the network then well DL probably doesn't want to share, but aren't they anyway as most of those passengers are connecting onward to KL flights?
Lastly I will never understand the ill will toward AirFrance. They have always blown me away with their service, great crew, comfy planes, good IFE, connecting at CDG your first time is not fun but then after you've done it once, it's no problem and maybe the best airport for spotting tails. Back to AF, I mean of course the A380 beats the A340 which is now gone on the DTW-CDG anyway but they do friggin' wine tastings mid flight in the Galley. Live it up!

Air France inflight service is amazing just don't want to connect at that maze called CDG. That's my issue there not the airline but the airport.

klm617 wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

There are two opportunities right now out there that need to be seized for the benefit of the Detroit market and it's growth EI and EK and all hands should be on deck to make these happen sooner rather than later. While EK is the first choice as they would create a wider range of destinations Detroiter's need to reach than both QR and TK plus EK will not run RJ out of town. Secondly EI for it's access to all the secondary UK markets out of Detroit at a decent fare. While we did get WW which is a good thing FI would have been much better for Detroit because I see WW as an airline on life support that could be gone any day and we'd be back to square one at least with FI there is some sort of security there that they won't go under leaving Detroit once again with no low fare carrier to Europe. As far as other adds that should be available to Detroit KE and KL or more than reasonable expectations to add in this market as they are both the home carriers at 2 of the skyteam hubs just like Detroit to stimulate recognition of the Detroit hub for both Korea and Holland for those who are loyal to their home country carrier. No as far as BA they bring nothing more to the Detroit market than we already have so there is no need to chase down a BA flight and as far as DY goes same situation as WW basically a rent a service that cold fold and discontinue service at any time so really not much value there. That all being said of course we should never look a gift horse in the mouth but there are some add that are more important than others.


FI over WW, EI over BA or DY and EK over TK or QR. unlike most on here I have no ego to feed so your negative replies do not detour me from my goal to get exposure for Detroit and to get service at the airport that will contribute to meaningful growth not this 1 or 2% BS growth we are seeing now. Apathy leads to extinction and I refuse to be apathetic about my home town airport by defending the status quo as acceptable.

So then I was right. Swap out DL tails for another SkyTeam member. Example...DTW-ICN can’t support 2 flights, so drop DL like a hot potato for KE. If DL would sacrifice FCO to AZ you’d be just as satisfied.

\Who says Detroit can't support 10 weekly 7 on Delta and 3 weekly on KE we had a daily 747 here year round. Never said I'd rather have AZ on DTW-FCO.

Please! You’d be celebrating if it ever happens. We’re not that nieve.

And if DTW can support 10x a week to ICN wouldn’t you think someone would take that up?

AMS is definitely better to connect at vs CDG. I can't stand 767's so if I was going to FRA from DTW I'd def hit that A350 up over AMS. I am fortunate enough now to live close enough to an A380 nonstop MIA-CDG although that is ending soon, so my trips next year I will fly to DTW just to get the A350 and then try either AF thru JFK on the way home or just get to the VS 744 and fly the bubble again, that was the most relaxed flight I've had in ages, boring arse 3 hour drive from MCO after but its worth it. The VS product is another one the "skyTeam" needs to be showcasing out there

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

compensateme wrote:

Please stop. DL and KL coordinate schedules, so if KL were to add DTW, it’d be in lieu of a DL flight. And have you flown KL lately? The service is absolutely inferior to DL. And flights to SLC and MSP are on cramped 787, whereas ATL gets even more cramped 777. Meanwhile, we get the spacious 359 - with better food, drink and entertainment selection. What are you whining about?

And that's OK if they take over one Delta flight move the ATL KLM fight to Detroit if it's a mute point. There has to be a benefit to having a KLM flight operated to these airports if they are all good enough to have KLM then so is Detroit. I'd rather fly KLM any day over Delta. As I said when KLM served DTW I even chose the one stop over the NW nonstops. I have flown the Delta 767 on DTW-FRA twice in the last 12 months so far and while the cabin staff did a better than average job the rest of the experience was typical Delta subpar tight 767 seating unfriendly CSAs and even a one hour delay.

I think I know where you’re going with this. The destination is meaningless. It’s having another livery flying into DTW. You’d prefer AZ flying to FCO, KL to AMS, KE to ICN, MU to PEK..... You wouldn’t care if the service was crap compared to DL. It’s all about another tail.

Thank you..glad someone else peeped it as well. Its all about another livery. And regarding the ICN flight...isn't ATL a larger market to Korea..KE 748 and a DL A359

lavalampluva wrote:

klm617 wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

So then I was right. Swap out DL tails for another SkyTeam member. Example...DTW-ICN can’t support 2 flights, so drop DL like a hot potato for KE. If DL would sacrifice FCO to AZ you’d be just as satisfied.

\Who says Detroit can't support 10 weekly 7 on Delta and 3 weekly on KE we had a daily 747 here year round. Never said I'd rather have AZ on DTW-FCO.

Please! You’d be celebrating if it ever happens. We’re not that nieve.

And if DTW can support 10x a week to ICN wouldn’t you think someone would take that up?

Considering the 744s they used to fly on DTW-ICN held 70 more people than the 359 they fly now, that’s almost a 500 seat loss one way per week, and those 744s consistently went out full.

I think DTW-ICN can easily support 10x weekly, and I’d even go as far to say double daily. I can see KE adding a frequency in the near future with the new JV they have with DL. Of course, DL could also be the one flying it, so who knows.

compensateme wrote:

klm617 wrote:

compensateme wrote:

Please tell me what that benefit is. Ultimately, it's air service that's interchangeable with -- it doesn't add capacity into the market nor does it lower fares, and while you may prefer KL, the overwhelming consensus is generally that DL offers a better on board product. And "tight" 767 seating? Unless you're traveling in Business, sitting in economy in any DL widebody is way more comfortable than KL -- KL opted to use the same seats on its 330 that it did on its 787 and (ten across) 777.

If you want KL, there's plenty of one-stop options, including YYZ, BOS, JFK, etc. Otherwise, it offers no benefit to the consumer.

If a KLM flight had no value to the markets they fly to then why do they not just fly the routes on Delta could have added the extra AMS-BOS capacity then there is value in having KLM serve a market otherwise like I say they wouldn't be in ATL, MSP,BOS and SLC and again that would be fine but I'm not double connecting to go to FRA and you know my stance if the airline doesn't serve my market they don't get my custom. Yeah well my Delta 767 flight was horribly tight . I just like the overall experience of flying a European carrier than a US one. Everyone has their own opinion. Why are you so against having a KLM flight to Detroit ?

I never asserted that I was against KL serving DTW; I’m saying your claim that ‘DL hates DTW because it’s the only hub without KL service’ is a logical fallacy. For that to be true, there would have to be something “special” about KL - but there isn’t. As I’ve pointed out, it’s not going to increase traffic, it’s not going to stimulate lower airfares, and most people agree DL offers a better product. This, we’re not missing out on anything.

The reason KL doesn’t serve DTW is likely logistics — a finite number of long-haul flights, with diverse departure times using a wide mix of the long haul fleet. And the departures are usually timed so that DTW can House the 330 operational spare, with extra crews standing by locally. Of course, I could use your logic and say DL must LOVE DTW sonce it’s protecting us from KL and its subpar onboard product (if you think the 763 is tight, you haven’t flown KL longhaul lately). ATL can keep the 10-abreast 777, I’ll gladly fly on DL’s 330 and 350.

That could very well be true about Delta loving Detroit guess it's just a matter of perspective really.

DTW-IAH is getting the Atmosphere cabin starting January 3rd

Per the latest OAG thread, AA rescinded its decision to drop the third MIA flight during the winter months. That’s good news but also an interesting move, given tickets are available for less than OW$100 most days.

And in the move I’d least suspect, BWI is going to just three peak day flights, each operated by the MD-90, this winter. Man, it seems just like yesterday NW was operating the route 7x on peak days, 8x during the summer.

Midwestindy wrote:

DTW-IAH is getting the Atmosphere cabin starting January 3rd

Meh, it’s still a CR9, which means no shoulder room. I’ll stick with UA and their E75...