Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
dtw2hyd wrote:If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.
DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.
flymco753 wrote:The Detroit/Orlando market never fails to amuse me. It's the single largest market without combinations (NYC=JFK, LGA, EWR, HPN, SWF, MIA=MIA, FLL, etc) at 2600 PDEW. This more than any peer city in the Midwest and other peer cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, Minneapolis, etc. The numbers are growing too. If B6 drops FLL, I can see them swapping it with MCO. Every airline on the MCO route averages 88%+ LF's. This is DOT data folks, I can't make this up.
nmdrdh787 wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.
DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.
This is why I can't take you seriously.
nmdrdh787 wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.
DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.
This is why I can't take you seriously.
winginit wrote:nmdrdh787 wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.
DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.
This is why I can't take you seriously.
I legitimately thought he was joking... no?
klakzky123 wrote:nmdrdh787 wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:If I may ask for the 100th time, if DTW-LHR is a lackluster route, why minimum ~$900 RT for off-peak/advanced booking and $2800 RT walk-up prices.
DL should offer $399 RT to improve loads.
This is why I can't take you seriously.
Taxes and Government Fees on an LHR flight from DTW amount to $200-$250 alone. I'm sure netting $150 on an LHR fare would be an extremely lucrative strategy.
SumChristianus wrote:Thats what table 6 data said for the 1st Q of 2018. Maybe not so.flymco753 wrote:The Detroit/Orlando market never fails to amuse me. It's the single largest market without combinations (NYC=JFK, LGA, EWR, HPN, SWF, MIA=MIA, FLL, etc) at 2600 PDEW. This more than any peer city in the Midwest and other peer cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, Minneapolis, etc. The numbers are growing too. If B6 drops FLL, I can see them swapping it with MCO. Every airline on the MCO route averages 88%+ LF's. This is DOT data folks, I can't make this up.
You sure it's 2600 PDEW?
Its still quite large, but 2600 PDEW would put DTW-MCO as being as large as MCO-EWR. Its the third largest O/D from MCO but seems more like 1700 PDEW. Sorry to nitpick, but 2600 seemed so unbelievable compared to capacity offered.
It looks like around 100 PDEW travels indirectly between DTW-MCO while MCO-DTW-GRR is the largest beyond market carried on the DTW-MCO segment at around 22 PDEW.
Here is Q1 USDOT data for DTW-MCO one way:
From DTW … … 22548.22222 … $245.51
MCO … … 1726.444444 … $193.72
… DL … 851.6666667 … $278.83
… NK … 617.4444444 … $103.87
… F9 … 167 … $81.39
… WN … 50.33333333 … $175.55
… AA … 27.33333333 … $181.97
… UA … 8.666666667 … $202.64
… 99 … 2.666666667 … $201.98
… B6 … 1.222222222 … $219.60
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
FLL … … 1262.777778 … $195.69
… DL … 690.1111111 … $269.15
… NK … 407.2222222 … $95.31
… B6 … 78.44444444 … $150.68
… WN … 37.77777778 … $150.07
… AA … 25.88888889 … $168.50
… 99 … 15.22222222 … $231.35
… UA … 8.111111111 … $173.66
RSW … … 1257.333333 … $220.33
… DL … 567.4444444 … $315.63
… NK … 528.2222222 … $101.97
… F9 … 115.8888889 … $91.58
… WN … 21.77777778 … $160.96
… 99 … 10.66666667 … $258.14
… AA … 10.66666667 … $182.28
… UA … 1.777777778 … $193.85
… B6 … 0.888888889 … $228.50
TPA … … 1116 … $195.04
… DL … 526.5555556 … $268.49
… NK … 491 … $94.58
… WN … 60.77777778 … $168.23
… AA … 24.22222222 … $183.97
… 99 … 6.666666667 … $240.58
… UA … 6.444444444 … $223.35
… B6 … 0.333333333 … $385.33
LAS … … 1013.666667 … $262.26
… DL … 464.2222222 … $374.75
… NK … 395.3333333 … $116.94
… WN … 119.5555556 … $195.61
… AA … 15.77777778 … $229.79
… UA … 13.11111111 … $252.87
… 99 … 4.666666667 … $278.40
… F9 … 0.555555556 … $95.32
… AS … 0.333333333 … $122.33
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
LGA … … 925.3333333 … $199.48
… DL … 438.7777778 … $265.20
… AA … 246.6666667 … $164.53
… NK … 214.3333333 … $65.73
… 99 … 14.66666667 … $199.71
… WN … 5.555555556 … $107.73
… UA … 2.888888889 … $173.63
… B6 … 1.555555556 … $110.63
… -- … 0.888888889 … $0.00
ATL … … 900 … $218.46
… DL … 412.4444444 … $286.82
… NK … 272.1111111 … $60.77
… WN … 181.7777778 … $133.44
… AA … 19.44444444 … $151.80
… 99 … 7.111111111 … $291.11
… UA … 4.888888889 … $169.52
… -- … 2.222222222 … $0.00
PHX … … 776.3333333 … $265.65
… DL … 343.2222222 … $322.84
… AA … 249 … $251.88
… WN … 151.4444444 … $198.11
… NK … 20.66666667 … $128.15
… UA … 7.888888889 … $199.94
… 99 … 2.555555556 … $298.01
… F9 … 1.333333333 … $113.00
… AS … 0.222222222 … $101.28
LAX … … 724 … $292.65
… DL … 425.1111111 … $389.69
… NK … 157.1111111 … $131.45
… WN … 56.44444444 … $199.90
… AA … 45.11111111 … $242.94
… UA … 23.22222222 … $319.48
… 99 … 13.44444444 … $322.01
… F9 … 1.777777778 … $140.44
… AS … 1.333333333 … $79.78
… B6 … 0.333333333 … $433.67
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
DFW … … 659 … $207.00
… AA … 312.7777778 … $218.84
… DL … 221.6666667 … $228.20
… NK … 112.3333333 … $59.74
… UA … 9.333333333 … $156.90
… 99 … 2.777777778 … $234.42
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
DEN … … 647.1111111 … $181.64
… DL … 262.2222222 … $236.85
… NK … 155.7777778 … $69.19
… WN … 123.3333333 … $146.18
… UA … 92.11111111 … $191.96
… AA … 11.66666667 … $146.72
… 99 … 2 … $540.78
MIA … … 564 … $206.10
… AA … 233.7777778 … $177.13
… DL … 225.2222222 … $254.64
… F9 … 85.44444444 … $89.37
… 99 … 11.55555556 … $242.62
… UA … 8 … $131.89
ORD … … 536.5555556 … $180.29
… DL … 241.2222222 … $175.94
… UA … 147.2222222 … $182.81
… AA … 140.8888889 … $186.50
… 99 … 7.111111111 … $162.08
… -- … 0.111111111 … $0.00
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:Nope I was snooping around on google flights and found a little something on April 12thAny reason why? Did I miss something, you know something we don’t, or just pure speculation?
Seems like an odd time since it would be an oct /nov start at the earliest?
flymco753 wrote:PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:Nope I was snooping around on google flights and found a little something on April 12thAny reason why? Did I miss something, you know something we don’t, or just pure speculation?
Seems like an odd time since it would be an oct /nov start at the earliest?
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:Question - The Davey had moving sidewalks parallel to the corridors connecting the concourses. Where those added in the mid-90s renovations or where those there longer?
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:DL briefly tried DTW-SMF in 2010 with an A320, but it was a evening departure westbound, red-eye departure eastbound. SMF just doesn't seem like a "natural" add to DTW considering they can easily add more capacity to SLC, MSP, or ATL for connecting traffic.
kavok wrote:2010 was in the middle of the recession, and as you mentioned, it was a red eye eastbound which business pax try and avoid. A lot of the borderline flights that didn’t work in the recession, could very well work now. The economy as a whole is obviously better, and especially DTWs economy is much improved compared to what it was 8 years ago
compensateme wrote:I love it how this forum nickel and dimes analysis of any new service to DTW, yet AA, UA and even DL to SLC are adding routes nearly entirely dependent on connecting traffic. Heck, CLT is nearly 90% connecting traffic for AA — 90% freaking percent — and yet CLT is planning a massive expansion.
DL identifies DTW as its second largest hub. That a seasonal flight to ANC or DUB on a 757, or limited seasonal to HNL, is fantasy is just nonsense. Heck, DL decided DTW couldn’t support summer service to CUN until NK added it, even as UA offered it via CLE.kavok wrote:2010 was in the middle of the recession, and as you mentioned, it was a red eye eastbound which business pax try and avoid. A lot of the borderline flights that didn’t work in the recession, could very well work now. The economy as a whole is obviously better, and especially DTWs economy is much improved compared to what it was 8 years ago
All eastbound flights from Hawaii to the East are redeyes, there’s just no way to avoid it. An 8AM deparure from HNL would arrive after 10pm, for example.
compensateme wrote:I love it how this forum nickel and dimes analysis of any new service to DTW, yet AA, UA and even DL to SLC are adding routes nearly entirely dependent on connecting traffic. Heck, CLT is nearly 90% connecting traffic for AA — 90% freaking percent — and yet CLT is planning a massive expansion.
DL identifies DTW as its second largest hub. That a seasonal flight to ANC or DUB on a 757, or limited seasonal to HNL, is fantasy is just nonsense. Heck, DL decided DTW couldn’t support summer service to CUN until NK added it, even as UA offered it via CLE.kavok wrote:2010 was in the middle of the recession, and as you mentioned, it was a red eye eastbound which business pax try and avoid. A lot of the borderline flights that didn’t work in the recession, could very well work now. The economy as a whole is obviously better, and especially DTWs economy is much improved compared to what it was 8 years ago
All eastbound flights from Hawaii to the East are redeyes, there’s just no way to avoid it. An 8AM deparure from HNL would arrive after 10pm, for example.
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:Also, the increased amount of LCC/ULCC service at DTW with the rise of NK in particular likely causes more and more leakage to DTW with the fares/connectivity/nonstop options.
I also suspect that DL has different pricing/revenue strategies than NW did at its peak. The fare difference in many cases to fly from FNT, MBS, LAN versus DTW was very nomimal, and I used this to my advantage back in the day to build segment runs, or to in same cases find cheaper fares than DTW.
rangercarp wrote:PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:Also, the increased amount of LCC/ULCC service at DTW with the rise of NK in particular likely causes more and more leakage to DTW with the fares/connectivity/nonstop options.
I also suspect that DL has different pricing/revenue strategies than NW did at its peak. The fare difference in many cases to fly from FNT, MBS, LAN versus DTW was very nomimal, and I used this to my advantage back in the day to build segment runs, or to in same cases find cheaper fares than DTW.
Living in southern Michigan I always check prices out of TOL, DTW, FWA, AZO, and LAN. I have flown a lot out of DTW and FWA; a fiar amount out of TOL. Once or twice out of AZO. I have never found a price out of LAN that was even close. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but that has been my experience.
flymco753 wrote:Seems like WOW Premium is always sold out on flights from or to DTW. The main cabin remind only 75% full. The flight probably does well off premium.
gnakra80 wrote:long time reader, first time poster...i'm originally from St Louis (RIP TWA) and noticed that all DL flights to STL are now on RJs, and all the flights to Minny from STL are now mostly mainline. This is very surprising. I would assume that DTW is a great connection point for people from STL to get to Europe and Asia. One could say that many people in STL still fly AA, but they left us a long time ago, and a whole generation has grown up agnostic to what airline they fly, they fly what's convenient and offers great service. AA fails at both!
Anyways, interesting to see that.
compensateme wrote:Not to mention DTW and STL are huge GoJet bases so I’m sure that has something to do with it. DTW after all is RJ land, always will be once the other hubs start getting the A220. They’ll just shove the remaining CR9s and E7Ws there.gnakra80 wrote:long time reader, first time poster...i'm originally from St Louis (RIP TWA) and noticed that all DL flights to STL are now on RJs, and all the flights to Minny from STL are now mostly mainline. This is very surprising. I would assume that DTW is a great connection point for people from STL to get to Europe and Asia. One could say that many people in STL still fly AA, but they left us a long time ago, and a whole generation has grown up agnostic to what airline they fly, they fly what's convenient and offers great service. AA fails at both!
Anyways, interesting to see that.
It’s because DL’s moved a significant amount of flow traffic to ATL. 150k more passengers flew from via ATL last year than pre-merger, vs. a 95k drop from DTW. MSP is more-or-less stagnant; presumably, flows via MSP were less impacted than those from DTW.
kavok wrote:CLE used to be until they added a 5th daily flight and 2 mainline flights. The only destinations in the Midwest that lack mainline flights are CMH, STL, and OMA.Eventually, as the RJ fleet starts to shrink in size, I would guess larger cities like STL would be among the first to go more/all mainline from DTW.
But yes, for those who do like to bash DL diverting flows elsewhere, STL is almost a textbook example of logical flows being routed away from DTW. If you are flying on DL from STL to Europe or the northeast US, DTW is obviously the better geographical connection point.
flymco753 wrote:kavok wrote:CLE used to be until they added a 5th daily flight and 2 mainline flights. The only destinations in the Midwest that lack mainline flights are CMH, STL, and OMA.Eventually, as the RJ fleet starts to shrink in size, I would guess larger cities like STL would be among the first to go more/all mainline from DTW.
But yes, for those who do like to bash DL diverting flows elsewhere, STL is almost a textbook example of logical flows being routed away from DTW. If you are flying on DL from STL to Europe or the northeast US, DTW is obviously the better geographical connection point.
flymco753 wrote:kavok wrote:CLE used to be until they added a 5th daily flight and 2 mainline flights. The only destinations in the Midwest that lack mainline flights are CMH, STL, and OMA.Eventually, as the RJ fleet starts to shrink in size, I would guess larger cities like STL would be among the first to go more/all mainline from DTW.
But yes, for those who do like to bash DL diverting flows elsewhere, STL is almost a textbook example of logical flows being routed away from DTW. If you are flying on DL from STL to Europe or the northeast US, DTW is obviously the better geographical connection point.
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:flymco753 wrote:kavok wrote:CLE used to be until they added a 5th daily flight and 2 mainline flights. The only destinations in the Midwest that lack mainline flights are CMH, STL, and OMA.Eventually, as the RJ fleet starts to shrink in size, I would guess larger cities like STL would be among the first to go more/all mainline from DTW.
But yes, for those who do like to bash DL diverting flows elsewhere, STL is almost a textbook example of logical flows being routed away from DTW. If you are flying on DL from STL to Europe or the northeast US, DTW is obviously the better geographical connection point.
CMH, is like STL in the sense they need to RON Republic aircraft for maintenance purposes. So, unlikely to see mainline for now. Back in the day this route used to see anything and everything from SF3, CRJ, ARJ, DC-9 up to A320 depending on the schedule.
STL gets 1-2 token mainline flights, typically timed to depart STL late-afternoon/early evening
OMA did have a run not to long ago of sustaining a mainline RON from DTW. I didn't realize it wasn't on the schedule this summer. I think this route actually went the opposite trend from 3x to 4x by replacing the A319/A320 flight with 2 - CR7/9s.