nomorerjs wrote:

Hate to break it to you, but SV is not coming to DTW. This thread immediately brings ORD into this (if NZ can fly ORD-AKL with little O&D, why can’t airline A make DTW - anywhere in the world work)?

Detroit is not Chicago, not even close. So many differences that have been brought up here for years, but few accept the facts. Then this turns to the gutter quickly based on emotion, collusion, conspiracy, and outright hatred of DTW being the key talking points.

There is a possibility the numbers could look decent, but it's probably too much of a risk because it would have to depend on connections on either end.

nomorerjs wrote:

...
Detroit is not Chicago, not even close. So many differences that have been brought up here for years, but few accept the facts. Then this turns to the gutter quickly based on emotion, collusion, conspiracy, and outright hatred of DTW being the key talking points.

Yes DTW is not ORD, and several people repeated this multiple times, but this DTW thread, not an ORD thread.

I can dream of DTW to Mars service on this thread, should hurt fanboys of other places.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

nomorerjs wrote:

Hate to break it to you, but SV is not coming to DTW. This thread immediately brings ORD into this (if NZ can fly ORD-AKL with little O&D, why can’t airline A make DTW - anywhere in the world work)?

Detroit is not Chicago, not even close. So many differences that have been brought up here for years, but few accept the facts. Then this turns to the gutter quickly based on emotion, collusion, conspiracy, and outright hatred of DTW being the key talking points.

Actually thats far from the most far fetched thing on this thread. Detroit is home to the largest Arab population in the US and 2nd largest Muslim population in the US. SV doing a seasonal charter for Hajj wouldnt be the craziest idea...

The best thing for DTW would be TK. Yes it would probably kill RJ, but you figure TK could probably do a 77W on the route, it means more capacity to the Middle East.

I guarantee you if MEA is ever allowed to fly back to the US, DTW-BEY would easily be one of the first if not the first destination from the US. Among all international destinations, BEY is number 1 at 180 people each way.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Actually thats far from the most far fetched thing on this thread. Detroit is home to the largest Arab population in the US and 2nd largest Muslim population in the US. SV doing a seasonal charter for Hajj wouldnt be the craziest idea...

The best thing for DTW would be TK. Yes it would probably kill RJ, but you figure TK could probably do a 77W on the route, it means more capacity to the Middle East.

I guarantee you if MEA is ever allowed to fly back to the US, DTW-BEY would easily be one of the first if not the first destination from the US. Among all international destinations, BEY is number 1 at 180 people each way.

I think an ME3 may be better. There are already many ways for people to get from DTW to BEY. QR or EK could connect DTW with the Subcontinent, Africa, the Middle East as well as BEY.

QR always says they will do it but never do, so I give EK the credibility of doing it one day. I have a hard time believing it'll kill B6's BOS flight.

flymco753 wrote:

QR always says they will do it but never do, so I give EK the credibility of doing it one day. .

ME3 may be ashamed to park their shiny big planes at North Terminal. EK 's smallest equipment 77L is too big for DTW's PDEW.

flymco753 wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

nomorerjs wrote:

Hate to break it to you, but SV is not coming to DTW. This thread immediately brings ORD into this (if NZ can fly ORD-AKL with little O&D, why can’t airline A make DTW - anywhere in the world work)?

Detroit is not Chicago, not even close. So many differences that have been brought up here for years, but few accept the facts. Then this turns to the gutter quickly based on emotion, collusion, conspiracy, and outright hatred of DTW being the key talking points.

Actually thats far from the most far fetched thing on this thread. Detroit is home to the largest Arab population in the US and 2nd largest Muslim population in the US. SV doing a seasonal charter for Hajj wouldnt be the craziest idea...

The best thing for DTW would be TK. Yes it would probably kill RJ, but you figure TK could probably do a 77W on the route, it means more capacity to the Middle East.

I guarantee you if MEA is ever allowed to fly back to the US, DTW-BEY would easily be one of the first if not the first destination from the US. Among all international destinations, BEY is number 1 at 180 people each way.

I think you can support TK and RJ. We do it easily at ORD but that is because they have hub partners here among other things. Probably what will happen is a reduced frequency on RJ. I think TK has to get their cards in the order and the political situation in Turkey needs to stabilize.

100% agree that a seasonal charter for Hajj is a great idea, however, aren't there special rules around them?

LAXdude1023 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Actually thats far from the most far fetched thing on this thread. Detroit is home to the largest Arab population in the US and 2nd largest Muslim population in the US. SV doing a seasonal charter for Hajj wouldnt be the craziest idea...

The best thing for DTW would be TK. Yes it would probably kill RJ, but you figure TK could probably do a 77W on the route, it means more capacity to the Middle East.

I guarantee you if MEA is ever allowed to fly back to the US, DTW-BEY would easily be one of the first if not the first destination from the US. Among all international destinations, BEY is number 1 at 180 people each way.

I think an ME3 may be better. There are already many ways for people to get from DTW to BEY. QR or EK could connect DTW with the Subcontinent, Africa, the Middle East as well as BEY.

Yes but htey need to justify daily service to make it work.

Michigan population rose by 9.96 Million in 2017. The Asian population in Michigan during 2017 grew 31%, Hispanic population by 15%. Two fastest growing groups, Hispanic population growth leads in actual numbers and Asians by percentage.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/ ... 717822002/

Meanwhile, flaming DTW tradition continues on a.net.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1397113#p20499385

dtw2hyd wrote:

Michigan population rose by 9.96 Million in 2017. The Asian population in Michigan during 2017 grew 31%, Hispanic population by 15%. Two fastest growing groups, Hispanic population growth leads in actual numbers and Asians by percentage.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/ ... 717822002/

Probably 90% of those Hispanics are from Mexico too. I’ve been saying for a while now that DTW needs Interjet, Viva Aerobus or Volaris to get into GDL. Off daily, something like 4x weekly on an A320.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Meanwhile, flaming DTW tradition continues on a.net.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1397113#p20499385

The constant “DTW lacks direct flights by airline ZZ to airport XYZ comments” has definitely become the running joke of A.net.

And the thing is, the two biggest issues with DTW is deal not with the lack of service on the airside, but with the lack of service on the ground side.

1- The lack of any practical public transportation to and from DTW to Downtown, (sorry but the bus doesn’t count, even if it is now “fast”). Look at the rest of the Midwest: CLE, STL, ORD, MDW, MSP all have rail transit between the airport and city center. Detroit is so far behind the times it is not even funny.

And don’t think for a second that the lack of transit doesn’t have an impact on conventions, business meetings, and other events that would draw more passengers from other cities into DTW. Believe it or not, adding a transit connection may actually bolster the number of passengers who O-D in DTW, and then maybe DTW could get a few more of the much talked about routes that are currently missing.

Without transit, visitors are forced to take an expensive taxi/ride share or rent a car, which leads me to problem 2:

2- The Rental Car situation at DTW is an equally bad joke. Most locals are unaware of it, because DTW locals typically don’t rent cars at DTW. But for others coming to the airport, they are greeted by a haphazard rental car setup that is Byzantine in design.

Each rental car agency has their own lot, and own shuttle, and two different terminals to pick up and drop off to. They are almost all uncovered surface lots, and the weather in Michigan isn’t the greatest for several months a year.

Put yourself in the shoes of a visitor renting a car. Upon arrival, you are usually greeted by a long wait for your rental car shuttle (especially if you arrive later at night or in off peak times). Your wait often involves standing on the curb for 20 minutes (sometimes longer) in subzero winter temperatures, or in 90 degree summer humidity. While doing so, you get to watch the Hertz, Avis, Enterprise, and every other agency’s shuttle drive by waiting for your own.

Finally, once on your shuttle, you are taken to a surface lot where you walk into an ugly shack to get your car. After getting your keys, you then have to find your car in a giant surface lot that is exposed to the weather elements, and if in the winter, your first encounter of your rental vehicle is brushing off all the snow that has accumulated. Welcome to DTW.

Now the obvious solution is a consolidated rental car in a parking ramp/garage... again a facility like you see at so many other airports. But again, not in DTW. Again, maybe if the ground transportation experience was improved at DTW, a few more visitors would chose to fly here, justifying more air service.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Michigan population rose by 9.96 Million in 2017. The Asian population in Michigan during 2017 grew 31%, Hispanic population by 15%. Two fastest growing groups, Hispanic population growth leads in actual numbers and Asians by percentage.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/ ... 717822002/

Arent you the one who moans and complains every time I post demographic data?

I didn't post foreign-born migrant data, this is population increase by ethnic groups. Useless vs useful for some meaningful air traffic service analysis.

kavok wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Meanwhile, flaming DTW tradition continues on a.net.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1397113#p20499385

The constant “DTW lacks direct flights by airline ZZ to airport XYZ comments” has definitely become the running joke of A.net.

And the thing is, the two biggest issues with DTW is deal not with the lack of service on the airside, but with the lack of service on the ground side.

1- The lack of any practical public transportation to and from DTW to Downtown, (sorry but the bus doesn’t count, even if it is now “fast”). Look at the rest of the Midwest: CLE, STL, ORD, MDW, MSP all have rail transit between the airport and city center. Detroit is so far behind the times it is not even funny.

And don’t think for a second that the lack of transit doesn’t have an impact on conventions, business meetings, and other events that would draw more passengers from other cities into DTW. Believe it or not, adding a transit connection may actually bolster the number of passengers who O-D in DTW, and then maybe DTW could get a few more of the much talked about routes that are currently missing.

Without transit, visitors are forced to take an expensive taxi/ride share or rent a car, which leads me to problem 2:

2- The Rental Car situation at DTW is an equally bad joke. Most locals are unaware of it, because DTW locals typically don’t rent cars at DTW. But for others coming to the airport, they are greeted by a haphazard rental car setup that is Byzantine in design.

Each rental car agency has their own lot, and own shuttle, and two different terminals to pick up and drop off to. They are almost all uncovered surface lots, and the weather in Michigan isn’t the greatest for several months a year.

Put yourself in the shoes of a visitor renting a car. Upon arrival, you are usually greeted by a long wait for your rental car shuttle (especially if you arrive later at night or in off peak times). Your wait often involves standing on the curb for 20 minutes (sometimes longer) in subzero winter temperatures, or in 90 degree summer humidity. While doing so, you get to watch the Hertz, Avis, Enterprise, and every other agency’s shuttle drive by waiting for your own.

Finally, once on your shuttle, you are taken to a surface lot where you walk into an ugly shack to get your car. After getting your keys, you then have to find your car in a giant surface lot that is exposed to the weather elements, and if in the winter, your first encounter of your rental vehicle is brushing off all the snow that has accumulated. Welcome to DTW.

Now the obvious solution is a consolidated rental car in a parking ramp/garage... again a facility like you see at so many other airports. But again, not in DTW. Again, maybe if the ground transportation experience was improved at DTW, a few more visitors would chose to fly here, justifying more air service.

Agreed. The transit experience at DTW is one of the best if not the best for a hub in the US. The public transit thing will be a challenge that may not be feasible. MSP's rail line benefits from excellent geography. There was dedicated surface level right of way along a major street corridor with key stops along the way. DTW isn't quite that fortunate with its geography. Also the political climate in MSP is much more favorable to large transit projects.

But the more realistic option is a modern rental car facility. To use the MSP comparison again, MSP has a fully enclosed facility connected to the airport. You never leave the airport or =exposed to the elements until you are in your rental car. That to me is a must in a cold weather hub. The public transit thing will be expensive and challenging but common enclosed rental car facilities are a good long term goal. Although I'm not sure if the airport is built in such a way to accommodate adding on a rental car facility.

kavok wrote:

...
The constant “DTW lacks direct flights by airline ZZ to airport XYZ comments” has definitely become the running joke of A.net. .

Shouldn't bother you or others if it is posted on this thread.

About other threads, show me one thread where DTW fanboys posted that comment, excluding responses to flame-bait. We are not the problem, you are.

As we speak, there is an AUS DL focus city rumor thread, everyone else is asking why not their airport, why flame DTW.
MSP-ICN, every fanboy wants ICN from their airport, while flaming DTW.
USA-Mumbai thread, third post flaming DTW

There is more paranoia than truth to your complaint.

klakzky123 wrote:

kavok wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Meanwhile, flaming DTW tradition continues on a.net.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1397113#p20499385

The constant “DTW lacks direct flights by airline ZZ to airport XYZ comments” has definitely become the running joke of A.net.

And the thing is, the two biggest issues with DTW is deal not with the lack of service on the airside, but with the lack of service on the ground side.

1- The lack of any practical public transportation to and from DTW to Downtown, (sorry but the bus doesn’t count, even if it is now “fast”). Look at the rest of the Midwest: CLE, STL, ORD, MDW, MSP all have rail transit between the airport and city center. Detroit is so far behind the times it is not even funny.

And don’t think for a second that the lack of transit doesn’t have an impact on conventions, business meetings, and other events that would draw more passengers from other cities into DTW. Believe it or not, adding a transit connection may actually bolster the number of passengers who O-D in DTW, and then maybe DTW could get a few more of the much talked about routes that are currently missing.

Without transit, visitors are forced to take an expensive taxi/ride share or rent a car, which leads me to problem 2:

2- The Rental Car situation at DTW is an equally bad joke. Most locals are unaware of it, because DTW locals typically don’t rent cars at DTW. But for others coming to the airport, they are greeted by a haphazard rental car setup that is Byzantine in design.

Each rental car agency has their own lot, and own shuttle, and two different terminals to pick up and drop off to. They are almost all uncovered surface lots, and the weather in Michigan isn’t the greatest for several months a year.

Put yourself in the shoes of a visitor renting a car. Upon arrival, you are usually greeted by a long wait for your rental car shuttle (especially if you arrive later at night or in off peak times). Your wait often involves standing on the curb for 20 minutes (sometimes longer) in subzero winter temperatures, or in 90 degree summer humidity. While doing so, you get to watch the Hertz, Avis, Enterprise, and every other agency’s shuttle drive by waiting for your own.

Finally, once on your shuttle, you are taken to a surface lot where you walk into an ugly shack to get your car. After getting your keys, you then have to find your car in a giant surface lot that is exposed to the weather elements, and if in the winter, your first encounter of your rental vehicle is brushing off all the snow that has accumulated. Welcome to DTW.

Now the obvious solution is a consolidated rental car in a parking ramp/garage... again a facility like you see at so many other airports. But again, not in DTW. Again, maybe if the ground transportation experience was improved at DTW, a few more visitors would chose to fly here, justifying more air service.

Agreed. The transit experience at DTW is one of the best if not the best for a hub in the US. The public transit thing will be a challenge that may not be feasible. MSP's rail line benefits from excellent geography. There was dedicated surface level right of way along a major street corridor with key stops along the way. DTW isn't quite that fortunate with its geography. Also the political climate in MSP is much more favorable to large transit projects.

But the more realistic option is a modern rental car facility. To use the MSP comparison again, MSP has a fully enclosed facility connected to the airport. You never leave the airport or =exposed to the elements until you are in your rental car. That to me is a must in a cold weather hub. The public transit thing will be expensive and challenging but common enclosed rental car facilities are a good long term goal. Although I'm not sure if the airport is built in such a way to accommodate adding on a rental car facility.

Detroit is very much separated with the times. Even a bus from the airport to a nearby train station would be a start. I think Detroit would do well with a MARTA type train both above and under ground if it has to.

dtw2hyd wrote:

kavok wrote:

...
The constant “DTW lacks direct flights by airline ZZ to airport XYZ comments” has definitely become the running joke of A.net. .

Shouldn't bother you or others if it is posted on this thread.

About other threads, show me one thread where DTW fanboys posted that comment, excluding responses to flame-bait. We are not the problem, you are.

As we speak, there is an AUS DL focus city rumor thread, everyone else is asking why not their airport, why flame DTW.
MSP-ICN, every fanboy wants ICN from their airport, while flaming DTW.
USA-Mumbai thread, third post flaming DTW

There is more paranoia than truth to your complaint.

I don’t think anyone is bothered by the “why not” or “what if” questions on the DTW thread. The issue is that a few posters try and fuel DTW discussions on other threads that are not focused on DTW.

Take the recent MSP-ICN thread. I saw no post from LAX, SEA, fanboys posting “why did DL add MSP-ICN instead of another SEA/LAX-ICN flight?” But there was at least one poster who was upset that DL was adding MSP-ICN and not a second DTW frequency. That is the difference.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Foreign born data is FAR more useful. ...
Thats why foreign born data HAS to be accounted for.

10,000 Syrians migrated to Michigan, does it justify DTW-Damascus?

Similarly, temporary non-migrant visa holders from India cannot travel compared to settled Indian origins.

Your data may be good to identify migration patterns, not travel patterns. You are just using it to flame DTW.

kavok wrote:

...
Take the recent MSP-ICN thread. I saw no post from LAX, SEA, fanboys posting “why did DL add MSP-ICN instead of another SEA/LAX-ICN flight?” But there was at least one poster who was upset that DL was adding MSP-ICN and not a second DTW frequency. That is the difference.

No, you are not reading with clear eyes.

There are four BOS-ICN requests just in first 80 posts. Also many requests to move hypothetically cancelled MSP-HND to their airport.

dtw2hyd wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

If you think Im trying to flame DTW, youve got another thing coming. Facts are what they are. Im not the one trying to dance around facts because they dont tell me what I want.

Are you claiming every other ABC-XYZ wish on a.net is facts based? Absolutely not, but the wish based on facts only rule being selectively enforced on DTW by a small group of vigilantes.

If someone posts ABC-XYZ and you think or have data it is never going to happen, have a good laugh and move on.

Here's the thing, people shoot down other ABC-XYZ threads. It's just that the DTW-XYZ posters are extra-militant, extra-pushy, and extra-immune to logic or facts.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

If you think Im trying to flame DTW, youve got another thing coming. Facts are what they are. Im not the one trying to dance around facts because they dont tell me what I want.

Are you claiming every other ABC-XYZ wish on a.net is facts based? Absolutely not, but the wish based on facts only rule being selectively enforced on DTW by a small group of vigilantes.

If someone posts ABC-XYZ and you think or have data it is never going to happen, have a good laugh and move on.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Can you please tell me where you could have possibly thought I said that. Im just as hard on every airport's fanboys including my own Houston fanboys. Weve got our "out of touch with reality" yahoos too.

Again, post the threads where DTW fanboys posted first(not responses to flame-bait), so we can have a "fact" based debate.

There is too much paranoia on a.net.
One confirmed sarcastic post about flight safety of 777X folding tips and 100s of responses.
Just a suggestion to discuss AUS DL focus city is met with fury.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Can you please tell me where you could have possibly thought I said that. Im just as hard on every airport's fanboys including my own Houston fanboys. Weve got our "out of touch with reality" yahoos too.

Again, post the threads where DTW fanboys posted first(not responses to flame-bait), so we can have a "fact" based debate.

There is too much paranoia on a.net.
One confirmed sarcastic post about flight safety of 777X folding tips and 100s of responses.
Just a suggestion to discuss AUS DL focus city is met with fury.

Show me where I flame bated you. Im not here to defend every yahoo on a.net. You accused me specifically of doing this. Prove that I (not someone else) did.

Enough of this both of you. Honestly the user who is so often responsible for disruption in this thread and on this forum has gracefully been offline for days now - we should capitalize on the opportunity to have legitimate, fact-based discussions around Detroit Air Service for the first time in ages.

kavok wrote:

2- The Rental Car situation at DTW is an equally bad joke. Most locals are unaware of it, because DTW locals typically don’t rent cars at DTW. But for others coming to the airport, they are greeted by a haphazard rental car setup that is Byzantine in design.

Each rental car agency has their own lot, and own shuttle, and two different terminals to pick up and drop off to. They are almost all uncovered surface lots, and the weather in Michigan isn’t the greatest for several months a year.

Put yourself in the shoes of a visitor renting a car. Upon arrival, you are usually greeted by a long wait for your rental car shuttle (especially if you arrive later at night or in off peak times). Your wait often involves standing on the curb for 20 minutes (sometimes longer) in subzero winter temperatures, or in 90 degree summer humidity. While doing so, you get to watch the Hertz, Avis, Enterprise, and every other agency’s shuttle drive by waiting for your own.

Finally, once on your shuttle, you are taken to a surface lot where you walk into an ugly shack to get your car. After getting your keys, you then have to find your car in a giant surface lot that is exposed to the weather elements, and if in the winter, your first encounter of your rental vehicle is brushing off all the snow that has accumulated. Welcome to DTW.

Now the obvious solution is a consolidated rental car in a parking ramp/garage... again a facility like you see at so many other airports. But again, not in DTW. Again, maybe if the ground transportation experience was improved at DTW, a few more visitors would chose to fly here, justifying more air service.

I agree. This would be one major improvement that DTW could make. I look at SFO as a model for how it could be done in Detroit - centralize all rental car companies into a single parking garage structure and provide one people-move system of some sort that connects both terminals with the facility (which would likely be some sort of frequent shuttle bus service instead of an Air Train). While this may not attract more visitors (I don't think many people choose their destination based on the rental car facilities), it would significantly improve the experience for O&D, especially those traveling on business.

seanpmassey wrote:

I agree. This would be one major improvement that DTW could make. I look at SFO as a model for how it could be done in Detroit - centralize all rental car companies into a single parking garage structure and provide one people-move system of some sort that connects both terminals with the facility (which would likely be some sort of frequent shuttle bus service instead of an Air Train). While this may not attract more visitors (I don't think many people choose their destination based on the rental car facilities), it would significantly improve the experience for O&D, especially those traveling on business.

I've rented cars a number of times at DTW and it works just fine. Those consolidated facilities come with big fees which are added to your car rental bill ($18 at SFO, $5.90/day at MSP). I can live without the Disney monorail ride and keep the $18, thanks.

seanpmassey wrote:

kavok wrote:

2- The Rental Car situation at DTW is an equally bad joke. Most locals are unaware of it, because DTW locals typically don’t rent cars at DTW. But for others coming to the airport, they are greeted by a haphazard rental car setup that is Byzantine in design.

Each rental car agency has their own lot, and own shuttle, and two different terminals to pick up and drop off to. They are almost all uncovered surface lots, and the weather in Michigan isn’t the greatest for several months a year.

Put yourself in the shoes of a visitor renting a car. Upon arrival, you are usually greeted by a long wait for your rental car shuttle (especially if you arrive later at night or in off peak times). Your wait often involves standing on the curb for 20 minutes (sometimes longer) in subzero winter temperatures, or in 90 degree summer humidity. While doing so, you get to watch the Hertz, Avis, Enterprise, and every other agency’s shuttle drive by waiting for your own.

Finally, once on your shuttle, you are taken to a surface lot where you walk into an ugly shack to get your car. After getting your keys, you then have to find your car in a giant surface lot that is exposed to the weather elements, and if in the winter, your first encounter of your rental vehicle is brushing off all the snow that has accumulated. Welcome to DTW.

Now the obvious solution is a consolidated rental car in a parking ramp/garage... again a facility like you see at so many other airports. But again, not in DTW. Again, maybe if the ground transportation experience was improved at DTW, a few more visitors would chose to fly here, justifying more air service.

I agree. This would be one major improvement that DTW could make. I look at SFO as a model for how it could be done in Detroit - centralize all rental car companies into a single parking garage structure and provide one people-move system of some sort that connects both terminals with the facility (which would likely be some sort of frequent shuttle bus service instead of an Air Train). While this may not attract more visitors (I don't think many people choose their destination based on the rental car facilities), it would significantly improve the experience for O&D, especially those traveling on business.

As a Detroit expatriate who flies back and rents vehicles frequently, I've never had any issue with the way the rental care situation is setup at DTW. Its very quick and efficient, the rental car employees are a cut above anywhere else I've ever rented a car and the terminal services are very prompt.

It doesn't have to be in a consolidated building to work well. SeaTac did such a thing and I find it to be a nightmare. Also, as other's have mentioned, I'll forego giving the airport authority the extra fees just for the privilege of building a consolidated complex.

Was flying out on Tuesday evening and saw an SAS A330 parked over by the old Smith Terminal Boarding Area A. Anyone know what it was doing at DTW?

mantistobogn wrote:

Was flying out on Tuesday evening and saw an SAS A330 parked over by the old Smith Terminal Boarding Area A. Anyone know what it was doing at DTW?

I saw it when flying out to MCO, it was a WX diversion going to ORD and the crew timed out.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Yemeni's, Syrians, Laotians, etc. dont travel with frequency.

How do you know, how do you know that

So, to put some data forward and steer the discussion towards a more fruitful data based discussion. Here is the latest O&D Marketsize data for DTW that I could pull (May 2017-May 2018)
You will see the data in the following format: ex DTW / to DTW / Total Passengers Per Year / PDEW

Interesting to note is the huge imbalance on FCO which is a seasonal route while MUC does not have the same imbalance.

Let the conspiracy theories begin...


ex DTW to DTW TPPY PDEW
DTW-PVG 34272 30111 64383 88
DTW-NRT 32259 28634 60893 83
DTW-ICN 15622 30864 46486 64
DTW-PEK 18141 13267 31408 43
DTW-NGO 12127 12612 24739 34
DTW-BOM 11275 8832 20107 28
DTW-DEL 11850 5387 17237 24
DTW-BLR 8920 6617 15537 21
DTW-MAA 9688 5837 15525 21
DTW-HYD 9823 3793 13616 19
DTW-HKG 5089 3606 8695 12

DTW-FRA 43567 46306 89873 123
DTW-LHR 48819 33891 82710 113
DTW-AMS 46419 30970 77389 106
DTW-CDG 47023 19811 66834 92
DTW-FCO 32442 3576 36018 49
DTW-MUC 16143 12160 28303 39
DTW-DUB 13552 2767 16319 22
DTW-STR 5920 8057 13977 19
DTW-BCN 11712 2135 13847 19
DTW-TIA 9115 2588 11703 16
DTW-MAD 7253 1987 9240 13
DTW-ATH 8122 1051 9173 13
DTW-TRN 3034 4904 7938 11
DTW-DUS 3092 4640 7732 11
...
...
...
DTW-TXL 3899 2796 6695 9

TIR is a nice niche that other cities don’t have.

It’s crazy how more people travel between DTW & FRA then people do from IND/CLE/CMH/CVG-Germany a day.

flymco753 wrote:

mantistobogn wrote:

Was flying out on Tuesday evening and saw an SAS A330 parked over by the old Smith Terminal Boarding Area A. Anyone know what it was doing at DTW?

I saw it when flying out to MCO, it was a WX diversion going to ORD and the crew timed out.

Weather was terrible yesterday. I got soaked walking to the Sears/Willis Tower, and the rain was pounding against my floor.

hjulicher wrote:

So, to put some data forward and steer the discussion towards a more fruitful data based discussion. Here is the latest O&D Marketsize data for DTW that I could pull (May 2017-May 2018)
You will see the data in the following format: ex DTW / to DTW / Total Passengers Per Year / PDEW

Interesting to note is the huge imbalance on FCO which is a seasonal route while MUC does not have the same imbalance.

Let the conspiracy theories begin...


ex DTW to DTW TPPY PDEW
DTW-PVG 34272 30111 64383 88
DTW-NRT 32259 28634 60893 83
DTW-ICN 15622 30864 46486 64
DTW-PEK 18141 13267 31408 43
DTW-NGO 12127 12612 24739 34
DTW-BOM 11275 8832 20107 28
DTW-DEL 11850 5387 17237 24
DTW-BLR 8920 6617 15537 21
DTW-MAA 9688 5837 15525 21
DTW-HYD 9823 3793 13616 19
DTW-HKG 5089 3606 8695 12

DTW-FRA 43567 46306 89873 123
DTW-LHR 48819 33891 82710 113
DTW-AMS 46419 30970 77389 106
DTW-CDG 47023 19811 66834 92
DTW-FCO 32442 3576 36018 49
DTW-MUC 16143 12160 28303 39
DTW-DUB 13552 2767 16319 22
DTW-STR 5920 8057 13977 19
DTW-BCN 11712 2135 13847 19
DTW-TIA 9115 2588 11703 16
DTW-MAD 7253 1987 9240 13
DTW-ATH 8122 1051 9173 13
DTW-TRN 3034 4904 7938 11
DTW-DUS 3092 4640 7732 11
...
...
...
DTW-TXL 3899 2796 6695 9

Where did you pull this from?

nmdrdh787 wrote:

Where did you pull this from?

The layout appears to be MIDT.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

hjulicher wrote:

So, to put some data forward and steer the discussion towards a more fruitful data based discussion. Here is the latest O&D Marketsize data for DTW that I could pull (May 2017-May 2018)
You will see the data in the following format: ex DTW / to DTW / Total Passengers Per Year / PDEW

Interesting to note is the huge imbalance on FCO which is a seasonal route while MUC does not have the same imbalance.

Let the conspiracy theories begin...


ex DTW to DTW TPPY PDEW
DTW-PVG 34272 30111 64383 88
DTW-NRT 32259 28634 60893 83
DTW-ICN 15622 30864 46486 64
DTW-PEK 18141 13267 31408 43
DTW-NGO 12127 12612 24739 34
DTW-BOM 11275 8832 20107 28
DTW-DEL 11850 5387 17237 24
DTW-BLR 8920 6617 15537 21
DTW-MAA 9688 5837 15525 21
DTW-HYD 9823 3793 13616 19
DTW-HKG 5089 3606 8695 12

DTW-FRA 43567 46306 89873 123
DTW-LHR 48819 33891 82710 113
DTW-AMS 46419 30970 77389 106
DTW-CDG 47023 19811 66834 92
DTW-FCO 32442 3576 36018 49
DTW-MUC 16143 12160 28303 39
DTW-DUB 13552 2767 16319 22
DTW-STR 5920 8057 13977 19
DTW-BCN 11712 2135 13847 19
DTW-TIA 9115 2588 11703 16
DTW-MAD 7253 1987 9240 13
DTW-ATH 8122 1051 9173 13
DTW-TRN 3034 4904 7938 11
DTW-DUS 3092 4640 7732 11
...
...
...
DTW-TXL 3899 2796 6695 9

Excellent work! These numbers mirror exactly what weve been saying and very close to what DTW already has. I think based on these an ME3 would be a good fit, but the over the top rhetoric about how poorly served DTW is doesnt reflect.

Wow - I thought DTW-DUB would be higher. Its actually smaller than DTW-DEL.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Alphazone wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Yemeni's, Syrians, Laotians, etc. dont travel with frequency.

How do you know, how do you know that

Its extremely obvious when you look at PDEW data. MSP-VTE, despite having the nations largest Hmong population by far, is 4 PDEW.

Syria is a war zone and O&D to DMM is bare bones.

Detroit has the largest Yemeni population in the US, yet its less than 3 PDEW.

If you had clarified that you meant travel to their home countries, I would have understood you..

flymco753 wrote:

It’s crazy how more people travel between DTW & FRA then people do from IND/CLE/CMH/CVG-Germany a day.

Well, the route has two frequencies a day~~

AF switched the 772 with the 77W tonight. I believe this is the first time the 77W has been scheduled as opposed to a diversion.

nmdrdh787 wrote:

ORD is more important than DTW... sorry to break it to you. Would love to see you debunk that with some actual MIDT or Sabre numbers instead of some baseless facts, especially as I am a former consultant that worked extremely hard to help to get ORD most of its new service this year and last. I'll let the route announcements and new tails at ORD do the talking for me..

I've provided the data throughout this thread; ultimately, the same arguments being presented about DTW (with several posters suggesting DTW should be dehubed) are worse at ORD:
-- Chicagoland has bled population for three consecutive years -- the only large metro area in the country to have lost population in ANY of those years, let alone all of them [Metro Detroit's population is stagnant];
-- Since the end of the recession, of the large metro areas in the country, Chicagoland is LAST in personal income growth and has experienced the largest drop in discretionary income [Metro Detroit is near the top in both personal & discretionary income growth];
-- Chicagoland continues to create fewer jobs per capita than Metro Detroit & has been tied with or trailing Metro Detroit in unemployment rate;
-- Chicagoland's per capita GDP growth trailed Metro Detroit's every year since the recovery.

But you're right, ORD continues to get new service (although in fairness, much of it is by alliance/JV partners targeting connecting UA/AA flows, and the long-term viability is questionable; re: AA's struggles in Asia), which partially supports the notion that some users are cherry picking select, isolated facts - often taking them out of context - to continue to "bash" DTW. Notably GDP growth -- you simply can't compare raw changes in GDP growth, you need to account for size. What wingintl is doing is likened to comparing a large drop in CPE at Gatorscreek, GA caused by new G6 service to a small (but significant) drop at Large Airport USA caused by management's aggressive attempts in cutting costs. When adjusting GDP per capita, Metro Detroit is top-6 or 7 (depending on the source) over the past 6 years. Ultimately, I bet that few users truly comprehend what they're posting.

But thank you for proving my point, which is that hammering a fuzzy, derogatory argument will cause emotions to run high on both ends. What continues to amaze me is that for all the silliness on this forum -- in the last 15 minutes, I've read ridiculous "new service rumors" for a range of airports from SLC to CLT, none of which are called out, and our ongoing "Deltagate" thread regarding the decision to drop SEA-HKG (which blames the route's discontinuation on everything but DL's inability to sell the premium cabin), none of the dozen or so trolls in this thread make even a peep elsewhere. And that includes yourself -- your postings made me question your claim of being a consultant (many of us have spent our entire adult lives in this industry), so I looked at your posting history and it became blatantly obvious that you're our AA ORD/DFW guy who's trolled this thread with numerous screen names.

ADrum23 wrote:

Exactly. ORD has 3x the amount of population of DTW and way more O&D. It has TWO hub carriers as opposed to one (plus a competing airport in MDW which has the largest WN focus city) so that is why yields are not as great as they could be..

Get your facts straight -- Chicagoland does not have "3x the population of DTW" (it's about twice as much) nor "way more O&D." ORD/MDW is slightly less than 3x that of DTW ... but it's a three hub operation and the level of competition yields plenty of cheap fares that draw from around the Midwest. In 2015, for example, GRR estimated that WN's presence reduced local leakage to ORD/MDW from 40% to around 20-25%. So yes, CHI/MDW have a disproportional amount of O/D compared to DTW, but a good chunk of it is junk traffic throughout the region chasing low fares created by the level of competition & capacity. For example... AA, UA & AS have walk-up fares from ORD to LAX & SFO next week for ~$100 -- far, far cheaper than anywhere else in the Midwest.

Ultimately, DL carriers roughly the same number of local passengers at DTW than UA & AA do at ORD, at a lower cost & higher average fare. And of course, ORD -- which already has $7B in debt -- is looking to take on $10B+ in the next five years -- a move that even credit agencies disagree with. Somebody's gotta pay for that debt -- the local market isn't growing sans ULCC, and the expansion would enable explosive growth by ULCC. Meanwhile, DTW is $2B in debt and is done with major capital projects.

I think DL is happy with its position, but some how, some way, you think DL "needs" an ORD hub...

johns624 wrote:

Does anyone know anything about the 2 all white MD11's (?) that are parked down by the UPS ramp?

Most likely cargo flights for Western Global.

compensateme wrote:

...
Get your facts straight .

Well said compensateme. It appears few airports already baked rest of the Midwest traffic into their planning, so any thought of plugging leak gives heartburn.